NYT Today: "Nurses are Not Doctors"

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If for example, nurses practice with some level of efficiency, 'patient outcomes' could be measured as they please. But I do agree that the likelihood of nurses ordering more unnecessary tests is high.

I don't think payers care terribly much about outcomes honestly, except for those payers who are likely to retain the patient for life (medicare and TRICARE), but only to the extent those better outcomes are in the context of reduced annual costs

Is it just me, or is it hypocritical on one hand to say that patient outcomes are better when patients are cared for by nurses a higher level of education (BSN v ADN/Diploma), yet on the other hand say that patient outcomes are just as good as MD/DO when patients are cared for by NPs who have less education than a physician?

I think it could reasonably be called hypocritical, but there's still the logically consistent (albeit untrue in I think most people's minds) that nursing education produces superior clinicians in less time than medical education
 
I think rather than try to argue the data we should argue the the sacrifice of our training.
Why is that we have to prove anything beyond our own interests? Why do we doubt the ethics of that while our adversaries are as certain as zealots about their interests? They do not doubt. They go for broke. Yet we have to convince ourselves of why we should have and interest in our own interest? That's insane.

Our best arguments lie in fairness and sacrifice.

Pursuing nuanced data based argument is folly. And will convince the jury of NOTHING.
I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You think one of our strongest arguments is "it's not fair" that they get to practice at our level without doing all the work we've done? Like...seriously?

I don't care if the masseuse I go to pays more rent or has more training than the one down the street...I'd still rather pay less + go to the one with more availability, if I think their performance are more or less similar . Short of some exceptional hands/technique, they will be about the same to me.

Don't talk complicated cases. How much more do we detectably offer average individual patients than the NP?

Even on that nurses forum someone admits NPs are creeping into specialties and are only touting primary care now because that's where they have firm ground. Next is specialties
Looks like the government is okay with healthcare becoming a free-for-all. There are some third world countries like that too.
 
...and now they're on the "but but but some schools are experimenting with 3 year MD programs!" and completely missing the boat on this thing called "residency."
 
Is it just me, or is it hypocritical on one hand to say that patient outcomes are better when patients are cared for by nurses a higher level of education (BSN v ADN/Diploma), yet on the other hand say that patient outcomes are just as good as MD/DO when patients are cared for by NPs who have less education than a physician?
Wow, I can't believe I missed that!
 
Is it just me, or is it hypocritical on one hand to say that patient outcomes are better when patients are cared for by nurses a higher level of education (BSN v ADN/Diploma), yet on the other hand say that patient outcomes are just as good as MD/DO when patients are cared for by NPs who have less education than a physician?

It's not just you. It's precisely this hypocrisy that is not understood well by most of this camp. They haven't worked under nurses. Had them as bosses. And the bosses of their bosses. Enough to know that there is no angelic force guiding their motives. And thus we need not pull our political punches for fear of being self-interested.

For my younger colleagues, I can't force you to think like a resident, or a graduating medical student looking at the sum total of your loans and wondering what will happen to this profession. Costs are going up like the walls of a dead end canyon as we go deeper in. And as we all know, people will always be lined up for this wagon train. Even long after it stops making sense. I would argue we are almost there.

I'm of the opinion that America's hospitals run on the backs of our residents. I know per nursing dogma martyrdom is their purvey so this assessment is not without its detractors. But I don't see anyone else rushing to do this work. So either it's pointless and we can move in their direction or it means something.
 
Do you have literature showing nurses cost less? I think I've read one or two studies to the opposite effect

The government foots the cost of residencies for doctors. They do not pay anything for NP training. Also, medicare also reimburses NPs 85% of what they would pay a doctor. Now the cost of NPs in practice IS higher than doctors because they have to shotgun and order tests inappropriately.

And as for the NPs in speciality areas, here is a published paper that says 75% are in primary care. http://www.nihcr.org/PCP-Workforce-NPs take it how you will, but I think it is safe to say that NPs are not a legitimate competitor in most areas.

Again, I am just trying to play on the other side of the fence here.
 
The government foots the cost of residencies for doctors. They do not pay anything for NP training. Also, medicare also reimburses NPs 85% of what they would pay a doctor. Now the cost of NPs in practice IS higher than doctors because they have to shotgun and order tests inappropriately.

And as for the NPs in speciality areas, here is a published paper that says 75% are in primary care. http://www.nihcr.org/PCP-Workforce-NPs take it how you will, but I think it is safe to say that NPs are not a legitimate competitor in most areas.

Again, I am just trying to play on the other side of the fence here.
Wrong. Look whose website that's on:
The National Institute for Health Care Reform is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, nonpartisan organization established by the International Union, UAW; Chrysler Group LLC; Ford Motor Company; and General Motors to conduct health policy research and analysis to improve the organization, financing and delivery of health care in the United States.

The Institute, incorporated in the state of Michigan, is governed by a six-member Board of Directors, with the UAW appointing three directors and each of the companies appointing one director.
 
The only cure to this is to DDoS the primary care market with physicians. How many physicians go into primary care now? Like..none!? We could make it theoretically 100%.

The only way to do that is to drastically reconstruct medical education to be hardcore. Two years pre-clin, one year clerkship (observership) and the last two are a rotating internship where your ass is grass, and then you're out and ready. Everyone can practice primary care.

Wanna be a specialist? Apply. But you know that you'll be up against the seasoned folk who whoop your ass clinically. Better gain some experience first.
 
The only cure to this is to DDoS the primary care market with physicians. How many physicians go into primary care now? Like..none!? We could make it theoretically 100%.

The only way to do that is to drastically reconstruct medical education to be hardcore. Two years pre-clin, one year clerkship (observership) and the last two are a rotating internship where your ass is grass, and then you're out and ready. Everyone can practice primary care.

Wanna be a specialist? Apply. But you know that you'll be up against the seasoned folk who whoop your ass clinically. Better gain some experience first.

I love this idea. Takes advantage of our more longstanding market value and reduces the upfront costs.
 
I love this idea. Takes advantage of our more longstanding market value and reduces the upfront costs.

It will never happen though, because it is far too logical.

Up in Canada, the semi-Communist nation in which I practice, the one big barrier to such a thing is the College of Family Physicians. They've whined about their low-man status in perpetuity and have thus made family medicine a "specialty", which it is not. Any attempt at trying to increase primary care access by reinstating rotating internships has been met with extreme resistance from this particularly *****ic group.
 
The government foots the cost of residencies for doctors. They do not pay anything for NP training. Also, medicare also reimburses NPs 85% of what they would pay a doctor. Now the cost of NPs in practice IS higher than doctors because they have to shotgun and order tests inappropriately.

And as for the NPs in speciality areas, here is a published paper that says 75% are in primary care. http://www.nihcr.org/PCP-Workforce-NPs take it how you will, but I think it is safe to say that NPs are not a legitimate competitor in most areas.

Again, I am just trying to play on the other side of the fence here.

I posted this earlier, but will again here to balance your link:

http://www.aafp.org/news/practice-professional-issues/20130820np-pa-grahamcenter.html
http://www.aafp.org/media-center/re...urse-practitioners-physicians-assistants.html

The findings might be seen as contradictory to a report from the American Association of Colleges of Nursing referenced in a July 2013 New England Journal of Medicine Perspectives piece, he added. That article suggested more than 80 percent of nurse practitioner graduates were entering primary care.

“That study differs from ours, however, in that it captured primary care degrees at graduation, not actual practice in a primary care setting,” said Bazemore. “Many nurse practitioners graduate with family, adult or pediatric degrees but then go on to work in subspecialty offices...

In fact, data from the 2010 report of the National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses showed 62 percent of nurse practitioners worked in subspecialty settings and 36 percent worked in primary care settings.
 
In fact, data from the 2010 report of the National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses showed 62 percent of nurse practitioners worked in subspecialty settings and 36 percent worked in primary care settings.

The Docs say 1/3, the nurses say 3/4. Back where we started.
Sounds like the nurses were padding the stats, of course.
 
The only cure to this is to DDoS the primary care market with physicians. How many physicians go into primary care now? Like..none!? We could make it theoretically 100%.

The only way to do that is to drastically reconstruct medical education to be hardcore. Two years pre-clin, one year clerkship (observership) and the last two are a rotating internship where your ass is grass, and then you're out and ready. Everyone can practice primary care.

Wanna be a specialist? Apply. But you know that you'll be up against the seasoned folk who whoop your ass clinically. Better gain some experience first.
This is how they do it abroad. Leads to some really crappy generalists but hey NPs will be the majority there anyway.
 
The Docs say 1/3, the nurses say 3/4. Back where we started.
Sounds like the nurses were padding the stats, of course.

You're absolutely right. I am inclined to trust the stats from the physician-directed studies mostly because of how easy it is for NPs to switch specialities. It takes nothing to tell a college or university to where one is applying for NP school that you want to go into primary care (it's easy for prospective meds students to do that too); it is also easy to graduate with that same stated direction as an NP declaring, "Hey, University of Phoenix Online, I--your newly minted APRN--am going to go work in a rural, primary care clinic!" when the reality is, without a residency in a chosen specialty like what's required of physicians, NP's can work in any setting they damn-well please after finishing their education.

I think what is misleading about the data from the AANP studies is that they only indicate what specialty was the reported intent of graduates, not where they actually end up practicing.
 
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I think the discrepancy between these studies probably has something to do with the fact that nurse practitioners who work independently are mostly in primary care, while NPs in specialties are almost always working under a physician. I cant find anything at all to back this up, it just kind of makes sense to me.

So when you see an article promoting the independence of NPs, they claim that >75% of independent NPs are in primary care. Articles in general will highlight all of the specialties that they practice in.


Maybe a bit of a reach though. Thoughts?
 
I think the discrepancy between these studies probably has something to do with the fact that nurse practitioners who work independently are mostly in primary care, while NPs in specialties are almost always working under a physician. I cant find anything at all to back this up, it just kind of makes sense to me.

So when you see an article promoting the independence of NPs, they claim that >75% of independent NPs are in primary care. Articles in general will highlight all of the specialties that they practice in.


Maybe a bit of a reach though. Thoughts?

Who needs thoughts when we can read:

"The findings might be seen as contradictory to a report from the American Association of Colleges of Nursing referenced in a July 2013 New England Journal of Medicine Perspectives piece, he added. That article suggested more than 80 percent of nurse practitioner graduates were entering primary care.

“That study differs from ours, however, in that it captured primary care degrees at graduation, not actual practice in a primary care setting,” said Bazemore. “Many nurse practitioners graduate with family, adult or pediatric degrees but then go on to work in subspecialty offices, similar to the preponderance of physicians entering residency in internal medicine or pediatrics at the end of medical school who go on to further training and practice in subspecialties.”
 
Good call. What's problematic about the whole situation, obviously, is that the AANP studies don't make this clarification.

And who can blame them...you mean NPs aren't the primary care bastions of light, selflessness, and humility that they were sold to politicians/physicians/general public as?

They might be in it for the money, lifestyle, and prestige (See the white coat, call me "Dr.", thanks)? Heavens no.
 
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You know what's scary? The fact that the NP mafia over at All Nurse can't seem to grasp the nuances that residents are physicians, but without completing residency will essentially be unable to function as residents due to malpractice insurance and hospital privileges issues (not to count licensure requirements in some states). Either interns aren't "physicians" in their eyes, or they're the measuring stick to compare all physicians against.
 
You know what's scary? The fact that the NP mafia over at All Nurse can't seem to grasp the nuances that residents are physicians, but without completing residency will essentially be unable to function as residents due to malpractice insurance and hospital privileges issues (not to count licensure requirements in some states). Either interns aren't "physicians" in their eyes, or they're the measuring stick to compare all physicians against.

You just captured the essential irony quite beautifully.
 
Although anecdotal, I spoke with an ex girlfriend of mine the other night. She informed me she will be starting a DNP program this fall and I decided to pick her brain a bit. I told her, " that's great, that you are filling in the gap where primary care is needed. Truly altruistic of you."
She responded and I quote, " primary care is for suckers. Me and a couple other nurses are going to open our own cash only skin care clinic. That's where the money is and we do everything a dermatologist does".
I remembered at this point why we broke up and haven't spoke in 3 years.
 
Although anecdotal, I spoke with an ex girlfriend of mine the other night. She informed me she will be starting a DNP program this fall and I decided to pick her brain a bit. I told her, " that's great, that you are filling in the gap where primary care is needed. Truly altruistic of you."
She responded and I quote, " primary care is for suckers. Me and a couple other nurses are going to open our own cash only skin care clinic. That's where the money is and we do everything a dermatologist does".
I remembered at this point why we broke up and haven't spoke in 3 years.

The only flaw I see in that logic is that they don't actually do everything a dermatologist does. The basic premise makes sense to me.
 
It's not just you. It's precisely this hypocrisy that is not understood well by most of this camp. They haven't worked under nurses. Had them as bosses. And the bosses of their bosses. Enough to know that there is no angelic force guiding their motives. And thus we need not pull our political punches for fear of being self-interested.

For my younger colleagues, I can't force you to think like a resident, or a graduating medical student looking at the sum total of your loans and wondering what will happen to this profession. Costs are going up like the walls of a dead end canyon as we go deeper in. And as we all know, people will always be lined up for this wagon train. Even long after it stops making sense. I would argue we are almost there.

I'm of the opinion that America's hospitals run on the backs of our residents. I know per nursing dogma martyrdom is their purvey so this assessment is not without its detractors. But I don't see anyone else rushing to do this work. So either it's pointless and we can move in their direction or it means something.

Completely agree with the bolded. This has become more and more evident to me as well. And what a great deal I might add! Hospitals get reimbursed north of $100k for having a resident on board and are kind enough to share half of that with their labor. Then the attending gets a cadre of relatively highly trained bitches doing the scut that they would otherwise have to - or, even better, pay someone to do - in any setting outside of Big Academic Center.

By the way, I think it's important to remember that residency is training first and a job second. But that said, let's stop kidding ourselves by thinking the hospitals don't benefit hugely from the labor of medical trainees. I don't think my current hospital could function as the level it currently does were it not for the huge amounts of labor compensated at rates similar to that of Starbucks barristas.

The fact that fully board certified trainees (fellows) are compensated similarly to residents should cause an uproar when you think about it. That's absolutely insane.
 
The UAW is involved is this happening, my blood was simply simmering before, now it's absolutely boiling. The UAW succeeded almost singularly in ruining America's auto industry, let's see how they do with the healthcare industry. What would we all call the primary healthcare city of America? 10/10 it ends up like Detroit.
 
You know what's scary? The fact that the NP mafia over at All Nurse can't seem to grasp the nuances that residents are physicians, but without completing residency will essentially be unable to function as residents due to malpractice insurance and hospital privileges issues (not to count licensure requirements in some states). Either interns aren't "physicians" in their eyes, or they're the measuring stick to compare all physicians against.

Forming an honest, consistent argument is not in their best interest. Whether or not they actually have the ability to do that is up for debate as well, according to that thread.
 
Forming an honest, consistent argument is not in their best interest. Whether or not they actually have the ability to do that is up for debate as well, according to that thread.
I need to stop looking at it. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion
 
Completely agree with the bolded. This has become more and more evident to me as well. And what a great deal I might add! Hospitals get reimbursed north of $100k for having a resident on board and are kind enough to share half of that with their labor. Then the attending gets a cadre of relatively highly trained bitches doing the scut that they would otherwise have to - or, even better, pay someone to do - in any setting outside of Big Academic Center.

By the way, I think it's important to remember that residency is training first and a job second. But that said, let's stop kidding ourselves by thinking the hospitals don't benefit hugely from the labor of medical trainees. I don't think my current hospital could function as the level it currently does were it not for the huge amounts of labor compensated at rates similar to that of Starbucks barristas.

The fact that fully board certified trainees (fellows) are compensated similarly to residents should cause an uproar when you think about it. That's absolutely insane.

Hey if you want more training in this procedure that you should have had plenty of exposure to in residency, I have a fellowship for you. You want to be certified in the procedure, don't you? Btw we don't want your taking care of patients skills to deteriorate so we will throw in a ton of those experiences, for free!
 
Although anecdotal, I spoke with an ex girlfriend of mine the other night. She informed me she will be starting a DNP program this fall and I decided to pick her brain a bit. I told her, " that's great, that you are filling in the gap where primary care is needed. Truly altruistic of you."
She responded and I quote, " primary care is for suckers. Me and a couple other nurses are going to open our own cash only skin care clinic. That's where the money is and we do everything a dermatologist does".
I remembered at this point why we broke up and haven't spoke in 3 years.

Skin care/aesthetics/vein clinics are a pretty nice cash cow.

I know a guy who failed to match in his top choice field, so he just did a medicine prelim year, then got his permanent license, took a bunch of certification courses in sclerotherapy, botox, laser hair removal, etc, bought a laser and some other equipment, and opened his own clinic. Self advertises like crazy on the internet and way oversells his credentials.
 
You know what's scary? The fact that the NP mafia over at All Nurse can't seem to grasp the nuances that residents are physicians, but without completing residency will essentially be unable to function as residents due to malpractice insurance and hospital privileges issues (not to count licensure requirements in some states). Either interns aren't "physicians" in their eyes, or they're the measuring stick to compare all physicians against.

Trust me, I smh at that one. This isn't the 1960's when you could graduate from medical school, hang out a shingle and over time become the neighborhood family doctor.
 
Here's another thing that bugs me. Nurses prattle on and on about how "holistic" they are, how they have the lock on caring about all of the needs of patients: physical, spiritual, emotional. But tell the APN crowd that you'd rather have your medical care from a physician and they say things like, "Fine. Go ahead and wait three weeks suffering while you wait for a physician, when you could have been seen and treated by an NP."

So...these "holistic" APN supporters are essentially getting their jollies over the idea that someone who wants a physician may suffer. Wouldn't a "holistic" approach be to acknowledge that some patients are more comfortable with physicians and leave it at that? I don't think "holistic" care includes saying, "You won't see an NP? Then suffer, neener, neener, neener."
 
Skin care/aesthetics/vein clinics are a pretty nice cash cow.

I know a guy who failed to match in his top choice field, so he just did a medicine prelim year, then got his permanent license, took a bunch of certification courses in sclerotherapy, botox, laser hair removal, etc, bought a laser and some other equipment, and opened his own clinic. Self advertises like crazy on the internet and way oversells his credentials.

A rogue in our circle and a brave pioneer of patient advocacy in theirs. But the same in both.
 
The only thing I can think of to make primary care even less attractive for medical students than it is now, is to be told by nurses, politicians, and some patients that they are no better and maybe worse than NPs in that role.

The smartest among them will realize that by pushing and fulfilling the "we're only moving in on this because there aren't enough MDs willing to fill the role" agenda, they are actually creating even more spots for themselves (and strengthening their case) as med students can no longer stomach the idea of entering primary care only to be seen as equal or even sub-par to nurses.

Pretty slick, nurses, pretty damn slick.
 
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I love how some over at all nurses seem to think that med students not attending class is evidence of slacking. Trololol

I went over there. I think it's a good representation of what the malignant nurses think of us. I've heard those same arguments at the hospitals over here, and it's usually from the nurses that take pleasure in treating third year medical students and interns like crap. Sorry I asked about using your stapler. Sorry I sat on the rolling chair that nobody was sitting on. Sorry I had to use the printer. Sorry I had a question. I've been yelled at for all of these things on the wards, and I'm pretty personable IRL. Fun times.
 
The only thing I can think of to make primary care even less attractive for medical students than it is now, is to be told by nurses, politicians, and some patients that they are no better and maybe worse than NPs in that role.

The smartest among them will realize that by pushing and fulfilling the "we're only moving in on this because there aren't enough MDs willing to fill the role" agenda, they are actually creating even more spots for themselves (and strengthening their case) as med students can no longer stomach the idea of entering primary care only to be seen as equal or even sub-par to nurses.

Pretty slick, nurses, pretty damn slick.

I've been saying for a long time that family medicine is not a specialty, and by making it such we are essentially "overcharging" for it and allowing for this kind of encroachment. It should be the bailiwick for all MDs, with specialization being an adjunct to that. We did this to ourselves. Doctors are bad strategists.

I went over there. I think it's a good representation of what the malignant nurses think of us. I've heard those same arguments at the hospitals over here, and it's usually from the nurses that take pleasure in treating third year medical students and interns like crap. Sorry I asked about using your stapler. Sorry I sat on the rolling chair that nobody was sitting on. Sorry I had to use the printer. Sorry I had a question. I've been yelled at for all of these things on the wards, and I'm pretty personable IRL. Fun times.

Nurses hate medical students and residents, especially female ones. They are resentful that, in only a few years, this young person will have more power and income than they do. In their world, seniority is the determinant for power and income. Classic wage-earner mentality.
 
I need to stop looking at it. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion

The "Wtbcrna" guy over there is the most insufferable kind of dense. That poor doctor arguing with him has much more patience than I do.

"I demand scientific evidence for all of your opinions/points/arguments or they are invalid!" :wacky: :bang: :boom:
 
Nurses hate medical students and residents, especially female ones. They are resentful that, in only a few years, this young person will have more power and income than they do. In their world, seniority is the determinant for power and income. Classic wage-earner mentality.

This has even been documented on Scrubs. See Elliot & Carla on scrubs ad nauseum.
 
Also the one who said you can become an MD in 3 years and that MDs don't count as an academic doctorate. Lolwut
 
Lots of text, but a few things I'd like to comment on, and a few pinocchio's I'd like to issue. As a caveat, I am a surgical subspecialty resident, so this is all written from my point of view.

a) Nurse practitioners function equally well as 3rd year residents.
10 pinocchios. In regards to these matters, you can't speak in absolutes, because there will always be that one nurse practitioner who is exceptionally good and that one MD who is exceptionally bad, but on the whole this is a false statement, especially as it has been mentioned that you have DNP's coming directly out of school with no more real experience than a medical student. From my experience, even seasoned nurse practitioners function on the level of an late PGY-1, early PGY-2, and from my experience working on the wards, the attendings have a much greater expectation of the residents to perform than for the nurse practitioners. When I was on the wards, the nurse practitioners worked shifts during the day covering about 1/3 the number of patients that I did, and the interns covered all nights and weekends. Logic would say dictate that when you cover 1/3 of the patients, you should have 3x more time to spend with each patient you care for. This is what irks me when patients complain about how little time they actually spend with physicians. When their shift was over, they were going home, regardless of the work they had left to do; that work was passed onto the interns. Yet, they make twice as much as I do as a resident. Go figure. Where I train, the 3rd year residents across all the surgical specialties are far more competent in patient care than the nurse practitioners; those final 2 years of training are really spent ensuring that surgical skills are adequate to operate alone.

In the course of one day my responsibilities include rounding at 5:30am, writing notes and putting in orders/discharging patients, going to the operating room by 7:30 am, doing pre-op paperwork, operating most of the day, fielding consults in between cases, doing post-op paperwork and orders, seeing consults once I'm out of the operating room, doing post-op checks, going home and reading about the next day's cases, and then taking call covering all the major hospitals in the city at least once a week. I might get to see each of my inpatients 5-10 minutes per day. Do I like this? Absolutely not, but there's no other option, especially now that we have work hour restrictions.

b) Nurse practitioners come out of school with more clinical experience than medical students
8/10 pinocchios. When I was a medical student, I worked a lot, and I saw a lot. If you count every hour spent on the wards or in clinic as a clinical hours, we have thousands of hours of clinical experience by the end of medical school. Let's do the math. On average, as a third year medical student I probably was in the hospital working around 40 hours per week (this is very conservative, as lots more time was spent in additional lectures, etc.). With 4 weeks off to take the STEP, 1 week of boards, and 3 weeks of vacation, I probably worked 44 weeks my third year. I would count that as 1760 hours of clinical experience my third year of medical school. Fourth year was undoubtedly lighter compared to third year, but in the final two years of medical school I garnered at least 2500 hours of clinical experience. And intern year was still a big shock, not because I wasn't prepared, but just because of the magnitude of everything I was expected to know. Now this is partly student dependent, because we all know some students take much more out of their clinical experience than others, but I think that you get a tremendous amount out of your third and fourth years of medical school if you really wish to learn. I have nurse practitioner students rotate in one of our clinics on a pretty regular basis, and none of them have any interest in what we're doing; they come to half a day of clinic, mostly sit around on their cell phones, and count those hours towards their clinical experience.

c) Nurse practitioners order more tests than MD's
True from my experience. Now there are certainly lazy MD's who are also guilty of this, but from what I see, the primary care NP's where I work basically act as triage. You have difficulty urinating? Referral to urology. You're dizzy? Referral to ENT. Your nose is congested? Referral to ENT. Your back hurts? Referral to neurosurgery. Your knee hurts? Referral to ortho. You go back and look in the notes, and these complaints are rarely worked up, and they are hardly ever given any form of treatment. The practitioner just hears the complaint and immediately puts in the consult to the specialist. This undermines the entire point of increasing the number of primary care practitioners. Yes, patients can get seen by the NP quickly, and they can spend lots of time telling them about all their problems, but they don't actually get treated correctly until they are sent to a specialist. As a result, our specialty clinics are overflowing, and we have to run through patients as quickly as possible just to keep our heads above water. Most days we're seeing 45-50 patients, and if you want to get into clinic for a routine complaint, you're going to wait 3 months. This is terrible patient care, but it's the norm right now.

d) There is a place for nurse practitioners
Absolutely. I actually think that nurse practitioners are of more use in the specialties than primary care. If I could personally train a nurse practitioner to see and correctly treat the run of the mill conditions that come into my clinic, I could actually focus on the sicker patients who need more time, I could book more patients to go to surgery more quickly, and I could spend more time in the operating room. We have an amazing nurse practitioner who functions in this capacity, and she makes all of our lives better. She is nice to the residents and works well with us, she doesn't pretend to be the MD, and she always performs under the guidance of our attending. If all nurse practitioners could function like she does, I would be their biggest advocate, but unfortunately this just isn't the case.

How do we fix this?
I don't think there is any way to reverse this by legislative means; the NP's are already too far entrenched. I think the way we change this is by debunking many of their claims and changing the public persona about physicians. How do we do this? I think a documentary on the medical education system would easily change the public's opinions. Get a filmmaker to lay out the differences between MD and NP education in a film. Pull the ACT/SAT scores, college GPA's of the average entering medical student and directly compare this to that of the entering NP student. Actually show the enormous competitiveness and anxiety of being a medical student. Follow the lives of medical students, first through fourth years. Show how expensive it is. Show the immense amount of information that we are expected to master, the number of tests we must take, the USMLE's. Show the anxiety of the match. Show the indentured servitude that is residency. Directly compare each of these aspects to the NP training by focusing on actual students and their lives, the material, the rigor of the education. I think if you objectively, accurately portrayed this in a film so that the average person can truly see what the differences are, you would have a drastic change in the public's opinion of physicians.

And I'm off my soap box
 
So... paramedics have a ton of experience managing emergency medical patients. Constantly 1 on 1 with patients, and responsible for all of their care during that time. Additionally, the education requirements are slowing increasing with more and more having associates degrees and bachelors degrees. Therefore, with an undergraduate program, how about we start to allow paramedics to work in the ED taking care of patients? They can do 99% of what a nurse can do, so we can help reduce the nursing shortage by allowing them to practice advance practice paramedicine in the ED. After all, if nurses don't want to come to work, why would they want to keep paramedics from practicing to the extent of their education and experience. I'm sure I can get a few studies done that show that paramedics are as good, if not better, at providing patient care in emergency departments than nurses.

Remember, it's not nursing, it's advanced practice paramedicine, and they don't need no NCLEX.
 
So... paramedics have a ton of experience managing emergency medical patients. Constantly 1 on 1 with patients, and responsible for all of their care during that time. Additionally, the education requirements are slowing increasing with more and more having associates degrees and bachelors degrees. Therefore, with an undergraduate program, how about we start to allow paramedics to work in the ED taking care of patients? They can do 99% of what a nurse can do, so we can help reduce the nursing shortage by allowing them to practice advance practice paramedicine in the ED. After all, if nurses don't want to come to work, why would they want to keep paramedics from practicing to the extent of their education and experience. I'm sure I can get a few studies done that show that paramedics are as good, if not better, at providing patient care in emergency departments than nurses.

Remember, it's not nursing, it's advanced practice paramedicine, and they don't need no NCLEX.

Several years ago I started a thread on allnurses about the idea of creating an EMT-Practitioner program to fill the nursing shortage. The replies were priceless (We worked hard for our education! If you want to be a nurse, then go to nursing school!). It took them about 3 pages of replies before an astute poster realized that they were probably being punked by a medical student. Good times.
 
I'm still not sure if they're doing the whole "we have doctorates, we're not trying to be doctors" or if they're still trying to tell us that their degree makes them a doctor.

They aren't sure either.
 
It is a strange phenomenon how they maintain multiple duplicities seemingly unaware of their interaction as a whole.

But...I wanted some help from my friends here with this other thing that I've lost my footing on--it appears I am misguided on the net value of a resident to a health care system:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-do-residents-make-so-little.1068298/page-2#post-15188816

So...if we are a minor drain on the system to train us. How is it never discussed what a New NP is to the system? I know with certainty that there is much less emphasis on education for new midlevels. They are expected to be profit centers for their practice settings.

So how does all of this fit into this thread. If we have to pay a quarter million, in some cases, to be ready to be a slight drag on the system...how the hell are they doing it for cheaper, while nobody seems to notice any drag they create. Our attendings are keen enough to note they spend inordinate amounts of time making sure we don't kill people. And yet silence on what it takes to create a profitable midlevel.

What really happens within the public information black hole that exists between student and working clinician. What is real comparatively cost wise between us and them?
 
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"As a very wise DNP professor of mine once said 'not all doctors are physicians' hopefully this physician is being educated to new guidelines and the latest evidence."


that's true....unless you have a MD/DO you are not a physician. Being a "doctor" of nursing practice or whatever doesn't make you a physician.
 
What's even more scary is the "Nurse Practitioner Perspective on Education and Post-Graduate Training," released today and available here: http://www.aanp.org/images/documents/policy-toolbox/nproundtablestatementmay6th.pdf. I'll include some of the highlights.
In this context, the sometimes used term “residency” is not an optimal description for NP post-graduate support and extended orientation because of potential confusion with the required model of graduate medical education. In medicine, a residency is a requirement to obtain licensure to practice and occurs after the physician has completed the general medical education program. The residency in medicine fulfills the required clinical focus of a particular specialty. In NP preparation that clinical focus is embedded in the NP educational program centering on the population focusthat is the center of NP practice emphasis (e.g.,
family, pediatrics, women’s health, etc).

Postgraduate training is not required and any further preparation is optional. There is an added confusion in that s ome nursing programs use the term residency to describe clinical practicum experiences embedded in their programs and some clinical sites use the term residencies for short term continuing educational endeavors for RNs. As institutions plan post-graduate support and orientation opportunities, they can avoid public confusion by using the term “fellowship” which has historically been associated with optional graduate training opportunities.
Any cardiologists, hematologist/oncologists, gastroenterologists, spine surgeons, etc. want to give an opinion on that optional education they received?

These gems are under the heading "evidence-based recommendations:"
NPs are prepared to be fully licensed providers at graduation. No added academic clinical or supervisory hours are necessary for safe patient care. Mandating a formal program after graduation is not necessary and would create new, costly bottlenecks to building the provider workforce.

NP graduates are highly competent clinicians with consistently strong patient outcomes. There is no evidence to justify additional delays or costs to taxpayers to support mandatory post-graduate training or to impose ADDITIONAL regulatory constraints to the new NP upon entry into practice. The new NP graduate is competent and legally-recognized to practice upon attainment of licensure, which is linked to completion of an educational program and successful certification in a particular population focus in primary care or acute care.

NPs currently provide nearly one-fifth of all primary care services in the US and represent the fastest growing segment of the primary care workforce. In 2013, over 14,000 new NP graduates completed formal graduate-level educational programs and joined the other 189,000 NPs in the healthcare workforce. Over two-thirds of NPs have received educational preparation in primary care, and collectively NPs positively impact access, quality, and cost-effectiveness of primary and acute health care of the nation.

There you have it ladies and gentlemen.
 
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