NYTimes: "Use of Private Care Tests British Health System"

[ChristianJames1]

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html?hp

I thought this was an interesting read.

 

[LabRat86]

Why shouldn't people with financial means get better treatment if they are willing to pay for it? I mean, they are financially better off because they've work harder than most people. Why shouldn't they reape the benefit of their own success?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Why shouldn't people with financial means get better treatment if they are willing to pay for it? I mean, they are financially better off because they've work harder than most people. Why shouldn't they reape the benefit of their own success?

Because that's not FAIR! Universal (ly crappy) healthcare for all! No exceptions!

 

[Dmizrahi]

does life isn't fair fit here?

Anyway that was a good article, thanks for sharing

 

[medking]

Why shouldn't people with financial means get better treatment if they are willing to pay for it? I mean, they are financially better off because they've work harder than most people. Why shouldn't they reape the benefit of their own success?

everyone should receive the same treatment. Doesn't make sense to treat someone differently just cause they have money. It's not like we're buying an ipod here.

Go single payer system!!!!

 

[Quadratic]

everyone should receive the same treatment. Doesn't make sense to treat someone differently just cause they have money. It's not like we're buying an ipod here.

Go single payer system!!!!

Yay for marginalism!

 

[TheLesPaul]

everyone should receive the same treatment. Doesn't make sense to treat someone differently just cause they have money. It's not like we're buying an ipod here.

Go single payer system!!!!

You can't afford to have high quality care for everyone. So according to you, we should make high quality care unavailable?

 

[SgtDoc]

That lady in the article wasn't rich, she was going to sell her house to pay for her treatment.

 

[167649]

everyone should receive the same treatment. Doesn't make sense to treat someone differently just cause they have money. It's not like we're buying an ipod here.

Go single payer system!!!!

Go un-accountability, rationing, interminable bureaucracy and economic ruin!!!!

 

[ChristianJames1]

personally, i am in favor of a single payer system and i think a lot of us are. but i am not in favor of decreasing the quality of care available. single payer does not have to mean worse quality, but clearly britain made some sacrifices to keep costs down. michael moore was wrong!!!???

 

[Jolie South]

personally, i am in favor of a single payer system and i think a lot of us are. but i am not in favor of decreasing the quality of care available. single payer does not have to mean worse quality, but clearly britain made some sacrifices to keep costs down. michael moore was wrong!!!???

is this surprising?

 

[supafield]

lol... I love people who argue with conviction the putting a price on life is the way to go.

In the end you need the find the system that gives the best health care to everyone whether it's completely equitable or not....

 

[45408]

Officials said that allowing Mrs. Hirst and others like her to pay for extra drugs to supplement government care would violate the philosophy of the health service by giving richer patients an unfair advantage over poorer ones.

Patients "cannot, in one episode of treatment, be treated on the N.H.S. and then allowed, as part of the same episode and the same treatment, to pay money for more drugs," the health secretary, Alan Johnson, told Parliament.

That's ridiculous. That's like saying you can't have private retirement funds in addition to Social Security. She's not depriving anyone else of anything, and it's not like the government is paying for more treatment for her because she's rich (even though she's not). Their logic does not make any sense.

Karol Sikora, a professor of cancer medicine at the Imperial College School of Medicine and one of Dr. Charlson's co-authors, said that co-payments were particularly prevalent in cancer care. Armed with information from the Internet and patients' networks, cancer patients are increasingly likely to demand, and pay for, cutting-edge drugs that the health service considers too expensive to be cost-effective.

This is why it would never fly over here. You mean that I can't have the best medicine available??

 

[167649]

is this surprising?

It isn't.

That's ridiculous. That's like saying you can't have private retirement funds in addition to Social Security. She's not depriving anyone else of anything, and it's not like the government is paying for more treatment for her because she's rich (even though she's not). Their logic does not make any sense.

It does if you are a communist.

 

[Trismegistus4]

does life isn't fair fit here?

Of course not. Life should be fair; so if it isn't fair, it must be made so by the government. Everyone must be totally equal to everyone else, and if any person ever has more than anyone else, it must be taken away from him and redistributed equally. The short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut describes the ideal society. No differences of any kind should be allowed between human beings.

 

[senseiturtle]

Of course not. Life should be fair; so if it isn't fair, it must be made so by the government. Everyone must be totally equal to everyone else, and if any person ever has more than anyone else, it must be taken away from him and redistributed equally. The short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut describes the ideal society. No differences of any kind should be allowed between human beings.

Reaks with sarcasm. I like it.

Socialized medicine will fail to solve the current problems, and create more new ones than we can possibly foresee.

People must realize that news outlets have an agenda. They're pushing socialized medicine, as well as a host of other liberal policies. They will do everything they can to ensure a democrat get elected, short of allowing the sheeple to realize they're getting duped.

www.freemarketcure.com does a great job illustrating why universal healthcare is a failure. It's a set of documentaries with opinion pieces.

 

[kami333]

If she was in the US, would she have health insurance?

 

[Phoenix.]

Moving to the Topics in Healthcare Forum.

 

[medking]

You can't afford to have high quality care for everyone. So according to you, we should make high quality care unavailable?

Why do people think that the quality of care goes down just by switching to a single payer system? What is high quality care anyway? Does it mean using the most technologically advanced equipment? Or are you referring to the potential drop in salaries of healthcare providers causing them to not want to do their best? Iunno, but I don't think the quality of care would necessarily go down.

 

[jad2121]

Of course not. Life should be fair; so if it isn't fair, it must be made so by the government. Everyone must be totally equal to everyone else, and if any person ever has more than anyone else, it must be taken away from him and redistributed equally. The short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut describes the ideal society. No differences of any kind should be allowed between human beings.

What a great short story. Vonnegut is the man.

 

[AwesomO]

Why do people think that the quality of care goes down just by switching to a single payer system? What is high quality care anyway? Does it mean using the most technologically advanced equipment? Or are you referring to the potential drop in salaries of healthcare providers causing them to not want to do their best? Iunno, but I don't think the quality of care would necessarily go down.

:Smacks head: Do pre meds really think that the govt/medicare sends out checks designated "Doctor money" "nurse money" "office money?" When you get paid for your services that money goes to not only your salary but to the nurses, mid levels, office staff, medical supply cost, etc etc.
So heres what happens. The govt decreases your pay you therefore have to find a way to make up that lost profit in order to keep paying your staff. So what do you do? You increase your patient load to balance it out. Which = less time with patients which translates into less effective care. There are some physicians that see a patient for less than a minute a day and just have their mid levels do all the work. They have to in order to stay afloat. Is this good care? I don't think people write in their personal statements for med school that "I want to be a highly efficient supervisor of my mid levels and be completely detached from my patients."

As an aside in what other profession are people asked to just take a pay decrease and continue working? Look at nurses, if they don't get a pay INCREASE they want they will go on strike. If you told your PA or NP you were going to cut their pay by 10% to save costs they would quit on the spot. Lets look at the college kids who are usually the most vocal about these things. When it came out that Bush may decrease their student aid they went absolutely nuts.

 

[firecoins]

Why do people think that the quality of care goes down just by switching to a single payer system? What is high quality care anyway? Does it mean using the most technologically advanced equipment? Or are you referring to the potential drop in salaries of healthcare providers causing them to not want to do their best? Iunno, but I don't think the quality of care would necessarily go down.

Because resources are limited. 1 doctor can only see so many patients reguardless of who pays. If everyone could go to the doctor for free, they will go for the most minute problems. This will cause long lines to see the doctor. However people who have to pay and are not rich will go during with more serious problems. These doctors will see fewer patients and have more time with them.

 

[AwesomO]

Of course not. Life should be fair; so if it isn't fair, it must be made so by the government. Everyone must be totally equal to everyone else, and if any person ever has more than anyone else, it must be taken away from him and redistributed equally. The short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut describes the ideal society. No differences of any kind should be allowed between human beings.

Whats funny is that no one thinks life should be fair and equal till they've fallen behind in the rat race that is life.
No one had any opposition in high school or college when I was dirt poor and they were partying it up on mommy and daddy's tab.
The last 4 years in med school they are just peachy with, as I'm basically losing in tuition the same amount they earn a year.
Residency they will find almost comical in that I worked this long just to make the same amount as them for double or triple the hours.
But wait for the days of being an attending and all of a sudden it's "Wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh he makes more than me that isn't right! I was cool with him when he made less but now that he makes more hes a money grubbing jerk wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh."

 

[asuhdds]

Whats funny is that no one thinks life should be fair and equal till they've fallen behind in the rat race that is life.
No one had any opposition in high school or college when I was dirt poor and they were partying it up on mommy and daddy's tab.
The last 4 years in med school they are just peachy with, as I'm basically losing in tuition the same amount they earn a year.
Residency they will find almost comical in that I worked this long just to make the same amount as them for double or triple the hours.
But wait for the days of being an attending and all of a sudden it's "Wwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh he makes more than me that isn't right! I was cool with him when he made less but now that he makes more hes a money grubbing jerk wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh."

See this? This is the world's smallest violent playing for you.

But seriously, the money isn't good enough for you, what are you doing medicine for? UHC is inevitable, and yes, there will probably be a market adjustment for physician salaries. But you'll still be making more than our Canadian counterparts who get an average 120K, I believe. That's still 3x more than the average income in the US.

 

[AwesomO]

Thats ok I play the very same violin when people are screaming and whining about free care. You should bring yours and we can have a duet. Although I'm not that cultured so no classical music. How bout the theme song from Jurassic Park?

But seriously, the money isn't good enough for you, what are you doing medicine for?

The your in it for the money statement. I'll give you credit though at least you didn't pull the "You shouldn't be a doctor" line. Why am I still in medicine? Well in my opinion I'm damn good at it and I like doing it. As for the money I knew the score when I was going into medicine that it wasn't stable, few things in business are. I still went through anyway. My advice to people who like to bitch about my salary is that they knew the score as well. You had mommy and daddy pay for everything and they cut you off once you got your PhD in philosophy and now you work at Barnes and Noble which can barely pay for your apple computer fetish? Sorry dude but thems the breaks. Maybe you should of listened to daddy and went to law school instead of raging against the machine. Screaming about my "conformist" salary isn't going to do anything about it now.

UHC is inevitable,

UHC is inevitable which is a good thing, socialized medicine however will never come to pass however. Neither Obama or Hillary are proposing it, in fact Obama's plan is a rather good one although it does need a few tweaks. IMO insurance companies and big Pharma have become to powerful in this country to simply cut out of the picture for socialized care. From what I hear they even have the people's champ Hillary in their back pocket now.

Ultimately I think American's just don't care as much about it as much as some people think. Yes people who have been slighted by the health care industry will of course crusade for change which is a good thing, can't have companies or the govt running out of control. But the average American has health insurance and the majority of the claims are paid for. Sure they like the idea of free health care but not because they can't afford care now but because that means that they can now spring for the 60 inch plasma TV instead of the 40 inch. They will get worked up whenever they see Sicko or what not but give them about a week and they'll care more about American Idol than they do health care.

But you'll still be making more than our Canadian counterparts who get an average 120K, I believe. That's still 3x more than the average income in the US.

:Shurgs: You must have me confused with a future cardiologists. I'm going into primary care and truth be told by looking at the model my pay per hour would probably go up in a system like Canada's. So why am I not being selfish and wanting a system like that? Because I believe a free market system would provide people better care than a socialized one. I know that puts a cramp in the style of free market detractors because gosh dang it I need to be all about the money but sorry guys I care about my patients ,one of my fatal flaws I guess.

 

[southerndoc]

If she was in the US, would she have health insurance?

I'm sure she would purchase it, but HMO's frequently deny treatments. Nearly every HMO would deny her treatment for Avastin during the time period she was trying to get it in the UK. Why? Because it was still characterized as experimental. It was only recently approved by the FDA for this specific treatment.

Who knows if the HMO's will approve it now. $10,000/month is an expensive drug, and HMO's try everything to get out of doing what they are supposed to do: pay for healthcare for their customers. Oh wait, that's not their goal. Their goal is to make as much profit as possible to satisfy their investors.

You can't have a for-profit healthcare system work effectively. Ideally, if everything was non-profit (including HMO's), the healthcare industry would be a lot better. A non-profit healthcare industry would be far better than a government-controlled single-payer system, but a non-profit system isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Miami_med]

I'm sure she would purchase it, but HMO's frequently deny treatments. Nearly every HMO would deny her treatment for Avastin during the time period she was trying to get it in the UK. Why? Because it was still characterized as experimental. It was only recently approved by the FDA for this specific treatment.

Who knows if the HMO's will approve it now. $10,000/month is an expensive drug, and HMO's try everything to get out of doing what they are supposed to do: pay for healthcare for their customers. Oh wait, that's not their goal. Their goal is to make as much profit as possible to satisfy their investors.

You can't have a for-profit healthcare system work effectively. Ideally, if everything was non-profit (including HMO's), the healthcare industry would be a lot better. A non-profit healthcare industry would be far better than a government-controlled single-payer system, but a non-profit system isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I'm actually a little bit baffled as to why all of the people whining about the lack of universal coverage haven't put together a non-profit health insurance company. This goes along with my other questions about why physicians haven't come together to form their own malpractice insurance company.

I suspect that the majority of supporters really don't understand how these things work (vocal or not), and physicians are notoriously poor with money.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I'm actually a little bit baffled as to why all of the people whining about the lack of universal coverage haven't put together a non-profit health insurance company. This goes along with my other questions about why physicians haven't come together to form their own malpractice insurance company.

I suspect that the majority of supporters really don't understand how these things work (vocal or not), and physicians are notoriously poor with money.

Why are you baffled? The people whining about the lack of universal coverage aren't whining that there are people who lack some sort of coverage; they are whining that not everyone has equal coverage. Their goal will never be realized until complete equality has come into being, which is impossible, so they will be whining, attacking capitalism, and chipping away at the medical profession forever.

 

[southerndoc]

This goes along with my other questions about why physicians haven't come together to form their own malpractice insurance company.

Some physician groups do have their own malpractice insurance. The Medical Association of Georgia provides medical insurance through its subsidiary MAG Mutual. There are numerous other organizations that do the same.

 

[Miami_med]

Some physician groups do have their own malpractice insurance. The Medical Association of Georgia provides medical insurance through its subsidiary MAG Mutual. There are numerous other organizations that do the same.

I was actually unaware of that. Do we have any data on the impacts of these things on the price and availability of insurance?

 

[southerndoc]

I was actually unaware of that. Do we have any data on the impacts of these things on the price and availability of insurance?

I'm sure data is available, but I'm not aware of it.

 

[Punchap]

See this? This is the world's smallest violent playing for you.

But seriously, the money isn't good enough for you, what are you doing medicine for? UHC is inevitable, and yes, there will probably be a market adjustment for physician salaries. But you'll still be making more than our Canadian counterparts who get an average 120K, I believe. That's still 3x more than the average income in the US.

He's just trying to make the point that medicine is an investment for a physician...you work four years in college, four in medical school, and then several more in residency. You should be compensated for your time accordingly. You're right, 120K is about 3x more than what the average American makes, but your education also took you 3x longer to earn, and you tend to work longer hours. What I don't understand, is how we can justify paying for materials and labor from plumbers, electricians, auto repairers, and not consider that health care might just be worth as much too. I paid a heating and cooling repairman 300 for 15 minutes worth of work that involved changing a $10 piece of equipment. Do I think doctor's deserve their current salaries or better? Absolutely.

Also, socialized medicine is not necessarily inevitable and it certainly won't succeed in the U.S. where taxpayers are not willing to pay 60% income tax to cover all their social benefits including the wonderful health care that is socialized medicine.

 

[doc sam]

Also, socialized medicine is not necessarily inevitable and it certainly won't succeed in the U.S. where taxpayers are not willing to pay 60% income tax to cover all their social benefits including the wonderful health care that is socialized medicine.

Sadly, I think it is nearly inevitable. The politicos and the mainstream media have the sheeple fairly well convinced that this is what we need.

Unfortunately, it will make things better for some folks, but a whole lot worse for others.

Personally, I have some ideas on more intelligent healthcare reform, and I've started a small series of posts in my blog related to this. (I've only got two posts on the topic so far, with plans to add more).

Anyway, if anyone is interested, the first post is here
http://drsamonline.com/2008/02/27/r...an-for-intelligent-health-care-reform-part-1/

The second one is here
http://drsamonline.com/2008/02/28/r...an-for-intelligent-health-care-reform-part-2/

These first two posts are really sort of a preamble as I delve further into the topic.

If anyone takes a look, please feel free to leave comments.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Why shouldn't people with financial means get better treatment if they are willing to pay for it? I mean, they are financially better off because they've work harder than most people. Why shouldn't they reape the benefit of their own success?

i lol'd

 

[doc sam]

Sadly, I think it is nearly inevitable. The politicos and the mainstream media have the sheeple fairly well convinced that this is what we need.

Unfortunately, it will make things better for some folks, but a whole lot worse for others.

Personally, I have some ideas on more intelligent healthcare reform, and I've started a small series of posts in my blog related to this. (I've only got two posts on the topic so far, with plans to add more).

Anyway, if anyone is interested, the first post is here
http://drsamonline.com/2008/02/27/r...an-for-intelligent-health-care-reform-part-1/

The second one is here
http://drsamonline.com/2008/02/28/r...an-for-intelligent-health-care-reform-part-2/

These first two posts are really sort of a preamble as I delve further into the topic.

If anyone takes a look, please feel free to leave comments.

I've just put up post number 3 in this series, in case anyone is interested.

It is here.

A Plan For Intelligent Health Care Reform Part 3

Please feel free to leave feedback on this series if you wish. This is really a work in progress and could no doubt stand some input from others.

 

[m3unsure]

Of course not. Life should be fair; so if it isn't fair, it must be made so by the government. Everyone must be totally equal to everyone else, and if any person ever has more than anyone else, it must be taken away from him and redistributed equally. The short story "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut describes the ideal society. No differences of any kind should be allowed between human beings.

You can't take away the idea of working hard for more. That's been the case since the beginning.

Redistribution failed in the USSR. Now productivity is only on the rise by introduction of capitalistic ways to their society.

No particular government system is perfect. But you can pick which way you want to go. If you don't like the overall philosophy in America since the beginning, then go to Canada or Europe. I don't remember Benjamin Franklin talking about government running society.

And do you think when the government holds power, they do what's right? No !!! People in government then hold power, and CEOs are replaced by officials. Europe is not free of bureacracies, and guess what, they are starting to have problems too.

When economies start failing, that's what happens everywhere. Fix the US economy first, then you'll see other areas improve.

And everyone is created equal, but that doesn't mean they are equal when they become adults.

 

[Trismegistus4]

You can't take away the idea of working hard for more. That's been the case since the beginning.

Redistribution failed in the USSR. Now productivity is only on the rise by introduction of capitalistic ways to their society.

No particular government system is perfect. But you can pick which way you want to go. If you don't like the overall philosophy in America since the beginning, then go to Canada or Europe. I don't remember Benjamin Franklin talking about government running society.

And do you think when the government holds power, they do what's right? No !!! People in government then hold power, and CEOs are replaced by officials. Europe is not free of bureacracies, and guess what, they are starting to have problems too.

When economies start failing, that's what happens everywhere. Fix the US economy first, then you'll see other areas improve.

And everyone is created equal, but that doesn't mean they are equal when they become adults.

Jeez. I keep forgetting to never underestimate even educated people's inability to recognize sarcasm.

 

[167649]

Jeez. I keep forgetting to never underestimate even educated people's inability to recognize sarcasm.

I have long abandoned it's use on SDN for such reasons as m3usure.

 

[m3unsure]

Was just ranting away rather than quoting him to be against him.

I like to rant a lot these days.

Internship sucks. Patient's families are a bunch of whiny b*tches about small things. Everyone tells you that it's not their job.

Hmm...maybe dermatology or even pharmacy is not that bad after all.

Sigh.....