nyu students petitioned against organic chemistry professor and got him fired

[Bryan O’Blivion]

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I loved organic chemistry. What an incredibly interesting subject. Totally worth the year of one’s life to be able to have a rudimentary understanding of the subject. It’s also the science of explosives and illicit substances, so honestly, if a person finds it boring, they lack imagination, I think.

I think it’s a relatively intuitive subject if a person is well acquainted with electrostatics, as it becomes a lot less about memorization than appreciating the charges on the molecules and envisioning how they interact with each other, combining in 3 dimensional space. I took it after a year of electricity and magnetism and thermodynamics, and it fit well in that framework and was really interesting.

I feel a little pity for folks who are obsessed with grades, gunning for med school. They are missing out on what can be a pretty great time in one’s life.

 

[OptionOffense]

I don't disagree with the bolded. But, if you asked a different question,"who were the most talented clinicians, the people you would want taking care of you and your family?" I think a disproportionate amount of them were hard science/engineering folks.

No. Still I don't think so.

 

[Twiggidy]

Rote memorization of p chem? You and I must have had very different experiences in that class.

Yeah. I loved P. Chem. It just seemed more like "real world chemistry" and made sense. Although to support what most are saying in this thread, I really liked our teacher and she genuinely cared. But honestly, at that point, you're dealing with class full of chem majors so I can see why a professor would give more effort to teach vs in a pre-med class where most students just want the grade. It's like the med students who stroll through for the required 2 week anesthesiology elective vs the ones who choose to do another month of anesthesiology because they plan to match to it

 

[BLADEMDA]

I loved organic chemistry. What an incredibly interesting subject. Totally worth the year of one’s life to be able to have a rudimentary understanding of the subject. It’s also the science of explosives and illicit substances, so honestly, if a person finds it boring, they lack imagination, I think.

I think it’s a relatively intuitive subject if a person is well acquainted with electrostatics, as it becomes a lot less about memorization than appreciating the charges on the molecules and envisioning how they interact with each other, combining in 3 dimensional space. I took it after a year of electricity and magnetism and thermodynamics, and it fit well in that framework and was really interesting.

I feel a little pity for folks who are obsessed with grades, gunning for med school. They are missing out on what can be a pretty great time in one’s life.

The pressure to get great grades in order to be accepted to Med School is immense. These days the kids are looking at 3.8 GPAs or maybe 3.6 from a very tough, elite University. I seriously doubt most Pre-Meds are having a good time in undergraduate knowing that they need shadowing, volunteer time, charity work or something to show community commitment, sports, leadership, etc. Did I mention that many kids need a Gap year these days to fulfill all these requirements? Multiple MCAT review classes with likely 2-3 attempts to score high enough to be considered for a position.

Organic Chemistry is just another class these kids must take as part of the weed out process in college. IMHO, the classes that made you think the most were philosophy, literature or even religion where you could explore abstract concepts and pontificate on the very existence of life.

 

[wholeheartedly]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf2231

 

[Fpg1245]

The pressure to get great grades in order to be accepted to Med School is immense. These days the kids are looking at 3.8 GPAs or maybe 3.6 from a very tough, elite University. I seriously doubt most Pre-Meds are having a good time in undergraduate knowing that they need shadowing, volunteer time, charity work or something to show community commitment, sports, leadership, etc. Did I mention that many kids need a Gap year these days to fulfill all these requirements? Multiple MCAT review classes with likely 2-3 attempts to score high enough to be considered for a position.

Organic Chemistry is just another class these kids must take as part of the weed out process in college. IMHO, the classes that made you think the most were philosophy, literature or even religion where you could explore abstract concepts and pontificate on the very existence of life.

The most important class I ever took in college was philosophy of science. It did what none of the science courses could ever do completely change my understanding of science the world and everything else.

 

[OptionOffense]

The most important class I ever took in college was philosophy of science. It did what none of the science courses could ever do completely change my understanding of science the world and everything else.

The earliest philosophers were mathematicians and physicists.

 

[Fpg1245]

The earliest philosophers were mathematicians and physicists.

They were the real deal as far as I can tell. Real heavyweights everyone else is either a pretender or working in their shadow.

 

[vector2]

The most important class I ever took in college was philosophy of science. It did what none of the science courses could ever do completely change my understanding of science the world and everything else.

Amazing the number of studies we quote back at each other...and yet the average physician knows nothing about the philosophical underpinnings of falsifiability nor has ever even heard of Karl Popper.

 

[Teeth and Titanite]

I loved organic chemistry. What an incredibly interesting subject. Totally worth the year of one’s life to be able to have a rudimentary understanding of the subject. It’s also the science of explosives and illicit substances, so honestly, if a person finds it boring, they lack imagination, I think.

I think it’s a relatively intuitive subject if a person is well acquainted with electrostatics, as it becomes a lot less about memorization than appreciating the charges on the molecules and envisioning how they interact with each other, combining in 3 dimensional space. I took it after a year of electricity and magnetism and thermodynamics, and it fit well in that framework and was really interesting.

I feel a little pity for folks who are obsessed with grades, gunning for med school. They are missing out on what can be a pretty great time in one’s life.

Glad you enjoyed the class but this romanticizes what the class really is.

My undergrad is somewhat known for its tough organic chemistry classes. They are not unfair because of the teaching (which was quite good), but because they expected so much more than other universities in the state. My grades in orgo 1 and 2 were average or slightly below (B-,B), though I was left with a very strong understanding of the subject. Evident by the fact that I got 29/30 questions correct on the organic chem portion of the DAT.

Although my university did its job and I "knew" orgo well, I resented the agenda behind making the class hard for prestige. Even with my stellar standardized test performance, I was left stressed because of the grades I got. Intellectual curiosity and fascination get wiped away pretty quick when your career aspirations are stalling in the mud. With med school admissions being even more cutthroat, I feel for pre-meds in the same spot. Being a dental student now, I have received the best outcome. Yet, that has not changed my feelings towards that phase of my life. I am grateful to be free of it.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

The pressure to get great grades in order to be accepted to Med School is immense. These days the kids are looking at 3.8 GPAs or maybe 3.6 from a very tough, elite University. I seriously doubt most Pre-Meds are having a good time in undergraduate knowing that they need shadowing, volunteer time, charity work or something to show community commitment, sports, leadership, etc. Did I mention that many kids need a Gap year these days to fulfill all these requirements? Multiple MCAT review classes with likely 2-3 attempts to score high enough to be considered for a position.

Organic Chemistry is just another class these kids must take as part of the weed out process in college. IMHO, the classes that made you think the most were philosophy, literature or even religion where you could explore abstract concepts and pontificate on the very existence of life.

I don’t see this kind of thing as a hardship, honestly. College classes that challenge you intellectually? It’s actually a great thing.

I started college in my early 20s after a period of military service. Comparatively, it was a much easier stage of life.

I did study philosophy and literature. I found them hugely beneficial as well, and I utilize many of the concepts I was introduced to then in my everyday life.

It was difficult at times, but overall I think I was better off for the experience of really forcing myself to learn things that weren’t easy.

The most difficult class I ever encountered was classical mechanics. I’m not sure if I will ever be able to solve the 3 body orbit problem, or the rising top, but I appreciate learning about the concepts, even if I only got a B in the class.

I think there’s a point to college beyond checking a check box for professional school. It can really help you develop as a person. When you reduce it to a set of hoops to jump through, it seems like you can cheat yourself of this opportunity.

 

[Fpg1245]

I don’t see this kind of thing as a hardship, honestly. College classes that challenge you intellectually? It’s actually a great thing.

I started college in my early 20s after a period of military service. Comparatively, it was a much easier stage of life.

I did study philosophy and literature. I found them hugely beneficial as well, and I utilize many of the concepts I was introduced to then in my everyday life.

It was difficult at times, but overall I think I was better off for the experience of really forcing myself to learn things that weren’t easy.

The most difficult class I ever encountered was classical mechanics. I’m not sure if I will ever be able to solve the 3 body orbit problem, or the rising top, but I appreciate learning about the concepts, even if I only got a B in the class.

I think there’s a point to college beyond checking a check box for professional school. It can really help you develop as a person. When you reduce it to a set of hoops to jump through, it seems like you can cheat yourself of this opportunity.

This is how I wish I could have done college…but unfortunately this is the world we live in.

 

[anes12]

Because they thought the class is too hard and it's preventing them from getting into med school. This guy is 84 and has been teaching the same way for years.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Wonder if he was the only professor who taught OChem or that particular OChem class. They students could try to either take the class that was taught by another professor or take it at another university and transfer the credit in.

 

[Fpg1245]

Wonder if he was the only professor who taught OChem or that particular OChem class. They students could try to either take the class that was taught by another professor or take it at another university and transfer the credit in.

Rate my professor…best thing when I was in school. Avoided some real bad apples out there

 

[deleted1147063]

I was top 25 nationally in organic chemistry, in my generation, in my native country, and still I find it mostly useless for the practice of medicine. I find logic, physics, statistics or psychology 100x more important.

The real value of such a class comes from weeding out people who cannot digest large amounts of knowledge. I think that's important for a good physician. There should be a class like this for premeds, otherwise medical school will be a huge shock.

The problem is not with the class. The problem is with the system. College grades should not count for admission to medical school (way too subjective, like 90% of the stuff American medical schools use for sorting applicants). That's what the MCAT is for. When grades count, people focus on them, instead of their education, which should be way more important.

The problem is also with the current generations of students and medical trainees. They seem to always know everything better than their elders and are much less open to learning something different or hard. They love echo chambers and pampering. (Just look at this forum. Yesterday OptionOffense was pissing the wrong way or the wrong urine color, today he's banned.)

Universities and educators should remember the old adage for parents: be your child's best parent, not their best friend.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Yesterday OptionOffense was pissing the wrong way or the wrong urine color, today he's banned. With anti-competitive attitudes like these, I'm sure that American medical science won't be the international standard 20-30 years from now,

This is 100% nonsense. The user you referred to was more than likely a reincarnated troll in disguise. Multiple complaints from multiple users were received spanning quite some time. He provided no useful content to this site and solely existed to rattle cages and argue. There was not a single voice of dissent amongst staff.

 

[deleted1147063]

This is 100% nonsense. The user you referred to was more than likely a reincarnated troll in disguise. Multiple complaints from multiple users were received spanning quite some time. He provided no useful content to this site and solely existed to rattle cages and argue. There was not a single voice of dissent amongst staff.

Is there ever? For the record, I didn't like him either.

Regardless, I should have not brought up the subject.

 

[Fpg1245]

I was top 25 nationally in organic chemistry, in my generation, in my native country, and still I find it mostly useless for the practice of medicine. I find logic, physics, statistics or psychology 100x more important.

The real value of such a class comes from weeding out people who cannot digest large amounts of knowledge. I think that's important for a good physician. There should be a class like this for premeds, otherwise medical school will be a huge shock.

The problem is not with the class. The problem is with the system. College grades should not count for admission to medical school (way too subjective, like 90% of the stuff American medical schools use for sorting applicants). That's what the MCAT is for. When grades count, people focus on them, instead of their education, which should be way more important.

The problem is also with the current generations of students and medical trainees. They seem to always know everything better than their elders and are much less open to learning something different or hard. They love echo chambers and pampering. Just look at this forum. Yesterday OptionOffense was pissing the wrong way or the wrong urine color, today he's banned. With anti-competitive attitudes like these, I'm sure that American medical science won't be the international standard 20-30 years from now,

The thing about American medical science like most every other industry is that it runs on armies of cheap labor…mostly pHDs and MDs a good number of which came to the US looking for a better life. The day talented foreign scientists stop coming to US shores is the day we go from number one to basically somewhere in the middle of the pack of Western Europe and that’s being generous.

 

[Neopolymath]

I was top 25 nationally in organic chemistry, in my generation, in my native country, and still I find it mostly useless for the practice of medicine. I find logic, physics, statistics or psychology 100x more important.

The real value of such a class comes from weeding out people who cannot digest large amounts of knowledge. I think that's important for a good physician. There should be a class like this for premeds, otherwise medical school will be a huge shock.

The problem is not with the class. The problem is with the system. College grades should not count for admission to medical school (way too subjective, like 90% of the stuff American medical schools use for sorting applicants). That's what the MCAT is for. When grades count, people focus on them, instead of their education, which should be way more important.

The problem is also with the current generations of students and medical trainees. They seem to always know everything better than their elders and are much less open to learning something different or hard. They love echo chambers and pampering. (Just look at this forum. Yesterday OptionOffense was pissing the wrong way or the wrong urine color, today he's banned.)

Universities and educators should remember the old adage for parents: be your child's best parent, not their best friend.

Welcome back

 

[deleted1147063]

Welcome back

To be honest, I just wanted to block the username (anybody could have claimed it), then I got pulled in by the old habits.

I still think that leaving the forum was the right decision, so I'll try to remember that.

 

[vector2]

 

[Neopolymath]

To be honest, I just wanted to block the username (anybody could have claimed it), then I got pulled in by the old habits.

I still think that leaving the forum was the right decision, so I'll try to remember that.

Well give us a pearl every now and then since you have the account!

 

[pgg]

Is there ever? For the record, I didn't like him either.

Regardless, I should have not brought up the subject.

Welcome back. 🙂

The mod staff is rarely of one mind. Generally the group calls for more moderation than we prefer in the anesthesia forum. We try to do as much nothing as possible. In this case after his thread****ting in Amir's celebratory thread the tolerance was exhausted and no defense of his behavior was offered.

The threshold for getting banned here is exceptionally high.

 

[ER BlueBlood]

Because they thought the class is too hard and it's preventing them from getting into med school. This guy is 84 and has been teaching the same way for years.

At N.Y.U., Students Were Failing Organic Chemistry. Who Was to Blame? (Published 2022)

Maitland Jones Jr., a respected professor, defended his standards. But students started a petition, and the university dismissed him.

www.nytimes.com

Pathetic. I was a ChemE major, Organic was a joke compared to the rest of the curriculum. Engineering probably the last bastion of profs who don’t give a dang how you feel and just fail you with no remorse.

 

[anbuitachi]

Pathetic. I was a ChemE major, Organic was a joke compared to the rest of the curriculum. Engineering probably the last bastion of profs who don’t give a dang how you feel and just fail you with no remorse.

good, should be that way. in the real world they cant complain for better results if their products dont work

 

[Fpg1245]

Pathetic. I was a ChemE major, Organic was a joke compared to the rest of the curriculum. Engineering probably the last bastion of profs who don’t give a dang how you feel and just fail you with no remorse.

Math Phys and Eng. that’s it and rather than fighting them just avoided them at all costs

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Pathetic. I was a ChemE major, Organic was a joke compared to the rest of the curriculum. Engineering probably the last bastion of profs who don’t give a dang how you feel and just fail you with no remorse.

People don't realise that orgo is an introductory course for chem majors lol.

Is it hard? Yes.

Is doing hard things necessary to be any use in life in general? Yes.


IMO, the main benefit to learning orgo for a premed was learning how to learn to understand, rather than regurgitate mindless facts. Even though the material itself is of minimal relevance to most clinicians, there's immense value in learning how to acquire a conceptual understanding of a subject or topic.

 

[emergentmd]

Org Chem is considered a weed out course bc pre med students was trained to memorize, memorize more, and when all things fail memorize more.

Org chem is not a class where you can memorize if you want an A. You need to understand it and once you figure things out, its completely logical.

Coming from someone who got his degree in EE/Biomedical, org chem was a piece of cake b/c I memorized very little and figured things out on day 1. I didn't show up to class for Org Chem II, barely cracked the books and still made a solid B just doing problems based on Org I knowledge.

Now, when they threw me into PathoPhys or Anatomy, it took me almost the whole semester to figure out that I just need to memorize, memorize more, and when things failed memorized more. These classes had zero logic to it.