Obamacare and Canada

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It's biased alright, so I couldn't just let it slide. I'm just going to refute some of her points; my main point is NOT that Canada's system is the perfect system for all, but that simply demonizing another system without identifying the problems of our system and proposing real changes to it is silly. Here goes:


Today…
bla bla bla….lets get to the meat of the matter:

This happy medium soon crumbled. With health care now effectively "free" -- that is, paid for by other taxpayers -- Canadians began visiting the doctor twice as much. Exploding demand drove up costs. To keep spending under control, the federal government simply reduced how much it sent to provinces to run the system. Provinces in turn cut payments to doctors and covered fewer services and cutting-edge treatments.

I don't know where she got her numbers from, but currently, Canadians do have more office visits per capita according to OECD data, but not by much: 5.7 vs 4.0 in the US. I would say the "exploding demand and cost" of these office visits are more than made up by the fact that the US has about 4000 more hospitalizations per 100k persons, 110 more CT exams and 60 more MRI's per 1k ppl, and so on and so forth. Personally, I think it's silly to talk about healthcare systems in broad strokes like this and compare inane numbers when health demographics between the two countries are not that similar, but if you're gonna play the game, I'll play along.

At first, doctors responded by billing patients directly for amounts greater than the government reimbursements. But in 1984, the federal government outlawed such practices -- thereby banning private delivery of services covered under the Canada Health Act. At this point, the Canadian government effectively controlled health care in the country.

The Canadian experience offers a preview of what Obamacare has in store for the United States.

Saskatchewan was the first province to ratchet up government control over the provision of health services -- much like Massachusetts. Just as Saskatchewan served as the model for Canada's healthcare system, the Massachusetts experiment was the template for Obamacare. And just as Saskatchewan's streets filled with protesters in the early-1960s, streets and city squares across America filled with tea partiers as the passage of Obamacare drew near.

The cornerstone of the Massachusetts plan -- and of Obamacare -- is the individual mandate, which requires all citizens to obtain health insurance. Defenders of the mandate claim that it's the best way to achieve universal coverage without an outright government takeover of the healthcare system. Massachusetts has been able to bring its uninsured rate from 10 percent to below 3 percent.

Of course, most of the Bay State's newly-insured citizens are enrolled in government-run and subsidized plans under Commonwealth Care -- at great cost to state taxpayers.

Who are now subsidizing the same care they always subsidized when these uninsured patients visited the hospital and "self payed".

These plans don't fully cover the cost of their beneficiaries' medical care. Historically, doctors would have charged the privately insured more to make up for the shortfall. But Massachusetts' four largest insurers can't afford to pay providers any more, as they already hemorrhaged $150 million in the first quarter of this year. Ordinarily, they'd pass the increases onto consumers, but Bay State politicians forbade them from raising rates. One provider won on appeal and the others are awaiting decisions. But Governor Deval Patrick says he will appeal this ruling.

Which shows you the silly farce of a "private" system we have where the government controls the "private" market.

As they attempt to deal with this disaster, Massachusetts officials are quickly realizing what Canadian officials learned 30 years ago -- the only way to control costs inside a government-directed health system is to cut doctors' pay, transfer patients into managed care, and introduce arbitrary spending caps and price controls.

Actually, no need to cut doctor's pay, they just need to provide the right amount of care and yes, to have price controls so we don't pay exorbitant margins on drugs, devices, etc. And I just know what political bomb lie you're about to drop on me next…

Not surprisingly, that's what Bay State leaders have tried to do. Last year, a state commission recommended that the government stop paying healthcare providers for each procedure and instead compensate provider networks with a flat fee per patient. Of course, such a system of global payments, or "capitation," encourages provider groups to skimp on care, as they get to keep any money not spent treating patients. State Senate president Therese Murray has decided to delay introducing legislation until 2011 because of the backlash.

Yes! Death Paaannnnnnnnels!!!! So you're saying MA tried to do what Medicare has already begun with the DRG system, which is an excellent way to provide the right incentives for patient care, and, yes, to ration care, something we desperately need in this country.

Obamacare promises to expand coverage in the same way that Massachusetts did -- by expanding government-funded insurance. Canada did the same thing. Worse, Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA) - introduced on July 21 an amendment to the Affordable Care Act, backed by 128 lawmakers, to bring back the "public option" that failed to make it into the final health reform package.

To pay for all this new coverage, Obamacare introduces a number of new taxes on individuals and businesses. Once the Treasury has its hands on all that new revenue, it's unlikely that it will ever be able to let go. Those taxes will be here to stay.

Umm, how else do you expect to insure all these people who can't afford insurance? Private insurance? You'll need many more tax hikes to do that.

And when costs spiral out of control -- as they have in Canada and in Massachusetts -- American officials will likely double-down on their bets and seize ever-greater control of the healthcare system. Canada banned the private delivery of medicine in response to runaway costs, while Massachusetts sees a system of global per-patient budgets as the solution to its cost problems. Federal officials will no doubt implement some combination of the two.

Interestingly, the "spiraling costs" in Canada are, per capita, close to half of what we have here in the half-private US system, while they cover 100% of their citizens. This includes the private expenditures on health (about 30% of total expenditures in Canada).


Fortunately, we're not yet consigned to a Canadian-style fate. According to Rasmussen Reports, nearly 60 percent of likely voters favor repealing the healthcare law. If Republicans take control of Congress this fall and the presidency in 2012, they'll be well-positioned to repeal Obamacare before the most egregious government controls kick in. If they don't, American health care in 2050 will bear a striking resemblance to Canadian health care in 1950.

I wouldn't trust any number put out by Rasmussen; regardless, I think Ms. Pipes meant to write that if we don't repeal our healthcare system will look like Canada's current system? Assuming the American system will follow the "tragic steps" of decline of the Canadian system she detailed above.

Three years ago...
bla bla more political crap.
 
Yes! Death Paaannnnnnnnels!!!! So you’re saying MA tried to do what Medicare has already begun with the DRG system, which is an excellent way to provide the right incentives for patient care, and, yes, to ration care, something we desperately need in this country.

I agree we need more rationing of care. I disagree that it should be the government who decides the rationing. I would rather have a system controlled by the almighty dollar than the government, which is (I believe) where the crux of this argument lies.
 
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I agree we need more rationing of care. I disagree that it should be the government who decides the rationing. I would rather have a system controlled by the almighty dollar than the government, which is (I believe) where the crux of this argument lies.


You mean HMOs?
 
My point about the article was to demonstrate the process whereby Canada went from a private healthcare system to one completely dominated by a single payer system. The politicians are slowly but surely chipping away at our private system in America, just as they did in Canada.
 
My point about the article was to demonstrate the process whereby Canada went from a private healthcare system to one completely dominated by a single payer system. The politicians are slowly but surely chipping away at our private system in America, just as they did in Canada.

As a Canadian who has experience in the Canadian, US and British systems, I fail to understand why you believe that this is negative trend. The Canadian system, with its many pitfalls, should be model for the US. The recent trend of a parallel private insurance option in most provinces works well for 100% of Canadian citizens.

Even the British NHS functions to serve all citizen, albeit not always in a timely manner, compared to the US system.

The American system will be uniquely American and nothing like the Canadian or British systems. As an aside, both Canadian and British consultants (attendings) make roughly $160,000-200,000 per year.
 
Canadian style healthcare + American Style malpractice laws = American doctor's worst nightmare. Let's say you're an EM doc who sees a five year old with no focal neurological deficits who bumped his head on a night stand, but without LOC or n/v or altered mental status. You're certain that a head CT is not indicated; on top of that, Obamacare won't cover it. But if you don't get the CT, the ambulance chasers are still going to come after you. Therein lies the rub.

By the way, the 160-200k salary is BEFORE the 60% income tax that they pay in Canada.
 
As a Canadian who has experience in the Canadian, US and British systems, I fail to understand why you believe that this is negative trend. The Canadian system, with its many pitfalls, should be model for the US. The recent trend of a parallel private insurance option in most provinces works well for 100% of Canadian citizens.

Even the British NHS functions to serve all citizen, albeit not always in a timely manner, compared to the US system.

The American system will be uniquely American and nothing like the Canadian or British systems. As an aside, both Canadian and British consultants (attendings) make roughly $160,000-200,000 per year.

It depends on your definition of what the "model" should be. Do you think it should be egalitarian, or should individuals have control over their own care? Should it be paid for by society or by the individual? Your idea of a "model" may in fact be my idea of a nightmare.
 
I think the salary estimated for Canada in this thread are a little low-balled. I finished my residency 49 days ago and based on my 1st 2 months in a not particularly busy family practice with some EM thrown in I will make in excess of $250,000.00 this year. I will make more next year unless they severely cut our pay (and we do have a contract). This is not working insane hours, this is just working. And I'm in Nova Scotia, which is not at the top of the reimbursement scale right now. I work full time, that's all.
Cheers,
M
 
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ONLY half your salary goes to the government. Bargain.

A small price to pay for 100% citizen coverage. Prevention is the key to keeping down costs. Ever wonder why Canada is the only G20 country with a healthy economy and banking system?

Oh, forgot to mention, medical school at McGill costs $23,000 TOTAL for tuition for in-province and only $50,000 for out-of-province. It is similar in the rest of Canada.
 
A small price to pay for 100% citizen coverage. Prevention is the key to keeping down costs. Ever wonder why Canada is the only G20 country with a healthy economy and banking system?

Oh, forgot to mention, medical school at McGill costs $23,000 TOTAL for tuition for in-province and only $50,000 for out-of-province. It is similar in the rest of Canada.

Not a small price for me. $100K + out of my pocket so we can "feel good" that there is 100% citizen coverage?
 
Canadian style healthcare + American Style malpractice laws = American doctor's worst nightmare. Let's say you're an EM doc who sees a five year old with no focal neurological deficits who bumped his head on a night stand, but without LOC or n/v or altered mental status. You're certain that a head CT is not indicated; on top of that, Obamacare won't cover it. But if you don't get the CT, the ambulance chasers are still going to come after you. Therein lies the rub.

Wait what? This kid doesn't get a scan, standard of care and evidence back that up. Why would I scan this kid? Because I'm afraid of getting sued?
 
#1. The Canadian system is much more efficient than the American system when looking at per-capita expenses. You get way more bang for your buck in a public model, but the reason why Canada has the problems it does is purely that it isn't spending enough. If Canada's health care expenditures were closer to the level the US pays, it would not have the problems it does today. Political influence has actually led to increased funding in the last few years, which has dramatically reduced the problems we've experienced like the wait times for elective surgeries.

#2, Canada isn't 'socialized healthcare'. The government doesn't tell you what you can or cannot do anymore than the US insurance companies tell US physicians what they will or will not cover for medical treatment. Canadian physicians are privately employed running for-profit businesses and simply bill one insurance provider - the government.

#3. Salaries in most specialties are on par with the US even after adjusting for tax rates, differences in currency levels, costs of living, etc. Some specialties actually pay more in Canada, while others pay less.

But whatever Obama is doing is far from equating to transforming into Canadian healthcare. It sounds like he might be messing things up even more by not addressing the core problems that exist in the US.
 
#1. The Canadian system is much more efficient than the American system when looking at per-capita expenses. You get way more bang for your buck in a public model, but the reason why Canada has the problems it does is purely that it isn't spending enough. If Canada's health care expenditures were closer to the level the US pays, it would not have the problems it does today. Political influence has actually led to increased funding in the last few years, which has dramatically reduced the problems we've experienced like the wait times for elective surgeries.

#2, Canada isn't 'socialized healthcare'. The government doesn't tell you what you can or cannot do anymore than the US insurance companies tell US physicians what they will or will not cover for medical treatment. Canadian physicians are privately employed running for-profit businesses and simply bill one insurance provider - the government.

#3. Salaries in most specialties are on par with the US even after adjusting for tax rates, differences in currency levels, costs of living, etc. Some specialties actually pay more in Canada, while others pay less.

But whatever Obama is doing is far from equating to transforming into Canadian healthcare. It sounds like he might be messing things up even more by not addressing the core problems that exist in the US.

Agreed. The health care reform bill focused on the ancillary issue of coverage, where it should have addressed the game-ender - cost. There has to be a unified movement for public awareness of the ever-increasing cost of health care and the ramifications it has on the economy and the nation's future. It's a politically risky move, but at some point, people have to be told that they're leveraging their children's future to keep Grandma "alive" for a few more months.
 
Well, isn't that what the whole 'defensive medicine' nonsense is about?

Defensive medicine sucks, but all estimates point to the fact that it adds only 4-5% to annual health care spending. You can cry for tort reform all night long and claim that it'll make health care sustainable, but that's far from the truth.
 
Defensive medicine sucks, but all estimates point to the fact that it adds only 4-5% to annual health care spending. You can cry for tort reform all night long and claim that it'll make health care sustainable, but that's far from the truth.

I don't think so. I believe either ACEP or the AMA conducted their own research, and their estimates were far higher.
 
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I don't think so. I believe either ACEP or the AMA conducted their own research, and their estimates were far higher.

How much higher? Either way, it's glaringly obvious that eliminating defensive medicine would do little to curb the growth of health care cost.
 
Defensive medicine sucks, but all estimates point to the fact that it adds only 4-5% to annual health care spending. You can cry for tort reform all night long and claim that it'll make health care sustainable, but that's far from the truth.

Actually more like 10-20%.

The numbers are confusing to people because we're not talking about the same parameter. For example the Congressional Budget Office puts out numbers that only estimate the cost savings of said PROPOSED BILL to the FEDERAL budget, not overall cost savings of "real" malpractice reform (trial by experts, expert witness reform, national/state fund for non-punitive damages only, etc, etc).

Overall savings is obviously very hard to measure given how ingrained the defensive attitude has become in American medicine. Even "evidence based guidelines" are tainted by the defensive mindset, especially in a field like EM.
 
Actually more like 10-20%.

The numbers are confusing to people because we're not talking about the same parameter. For example the Congressional Budget Office puts out numbers that only estimate the cost savings of said PROPOSED BILL to the FEDERAL budget, not overall cost savings of "real" malpractice reform (trial by experts, expert witness reform, national/state fund for non-punitive damages only, etc, etc).

Overall savings is obviously very hard to measure given how ingrained the defensive attitude has become in American medicine. Even "evidence based guidelines" are tainted by the defensive mindset, especially in a field like EM.

I'd really like to see how these 10-20% figures were calculated, especially given that gigantic range you gave.

You're right in that American medicine has become entrenched with a "defensive" mindset, but I'm relatively reluctant to believe that simple tort reform would eliminate these habits, when hospitals (and certain physicians) make handsome profits from extended use of their diagnostic procedures and equipment. Just because the public can't have frivolous lawsuits doesn't mean medical care will be slashed to its basics.

Don't get me wrong. I do think tort reform will help the cause, but I can't foresee a big enough change to make an impact on its own. American health care has far more problems than just malpractice and its ramifications.
 
Wait what? This kid doesn't get a scan, standard of care and evidence back that up. Why would I scan this kid? Because I'm afraid of getting sued?

Yes, because the evidence is never 100%. So you miss something 1/10,000 times, and you'll be forced to pay.
 
I'd really like to see how these 10-20% figures were calculated, especially given that gigantic range you gave.

You're right in that American medicine has become entrenched with a "defensive" mindset, but I'm relatively reluctant to believe that simple tort reform would eliminate these habits, when hospitals (and certain physicians) make handsome profits from extended use of their diagnostic procedures and equipment. Just because the public can't have frivolous lawsuits doesn't mean medical care will be slashed to its basics.

Don't get me wrong. I do think tort reform will help the cause, but I can't foresee a big enough change to make an impact on its own. American health care has far more problems than just malpractice and its ramifications.


I find it amusing that medical students so easily blow off the need for tort reform. Wait until it's your name and livlihood on the line and I promise you will think about it differently.

On the other hand, I do agree that the suggested tort reform probably does little to curb overall costs. I view the legal reform as a separate issue from cost and insurance, but as absolutely necessary to change the medical enviornment that will ultimately lead to cost savings. It's going to take more change than either the dems or the repubs are likely to give us, and it's going to take a generation of training to back away from the fear of frivolous suits.

I think we should stop running to the feds for help on the issue. They don't care and won't. Our respective societies need to sanction the guns for hire and decredit them. If you give bad testimony, you should be kicked out of or suspended from your professional society.

As you point out reimbursement does need to be addressed as well, but that also seems unlikely to happen.
 
I agree w/ Bronx that while good tort reform will help, it is not the #1 issue (that goes to Fee for service). There is no correlation between states w/ friendly legal environments and decreased health expenditures or better quality.

Take Texas...implemented a cap in the recent past. But no decrease or slowing of its health expenditures. And it's home to the famous McAllen, beacon of cost-ineffective health care.

A RWJ reports corroborates tort reforms secondary role in cost issues, and also that it is incredibly hard to predict its true effect. Regardless, it should be part of any reform package as it will at least help somewhat. (And it makes logical sense that a doc not fearing a lawsuit will be a little more cost-effective). If nothing else, it will make the providers a little more happy and warm to reform/change.

I agree that phony docs who are hired guns must be punished. A successfuil malpractice case requires (a) breach of protocol AND (b) hard directly attributed to this breach/negligence. A phony doc corrupts the first element. As a matter of fact, NIH should pump more and more $$$ into guidelines so that these can supercede "expert witness" BS testimony.