OBLC: can it be avoided?

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Does anyone know what happens if you never sign up for OBLC? Ever since I missed the cutoff for constructive credit for OBLC, I've been doing my best to avoid it.

They tried making me go a couple years ago when I finished residency, but I just never signed up and pretty soon it was all full (darn!). I never heard anything about it again until recently. Apparently there is a new initiative by the Army to make sure all doctors have done it. I've gotten two emails about it now telling me I'm supposed to sign up. First, I have no idea how to sign up. And second, what happens if I just never bother? I'm hoping that the new initiative will fade and they'll forget about me again unless I get slotted to deploy (and then of course I'll have to do it.)

Any possible repercussions? It seems like a huge waste for me to go to OBLC. It would cost the hospital a ton of RVU's, decrease the patient's access to care, and probably just screw up my clinic.

 

[colbgw02]

I tried almost everything to get out of going, but I'm being sent TDY en route in a few weeks. It'll be a tremendous waste of time and resources for both the Army and me, but c'est la vie. I was mildly worried about not getting picked up for O-4 without at least being scheduled to go, but maybe that concern is unfounded. The only other thing that I can think of is that they'll eventually stop approving leave. If you intend to separate, then they really don't have anything else to hurt you with that won't end up hurting them more.

 

[Gunner1960]

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[colbgw02]

I'm always surprised that people do everything to avoid going to BOLC. You signed up for the Army and to be an Army Officer one of your obligations is to attend BOLC. I have over 26 years of time on Active and Reserve combined. It still amazes me that people don't want to be in the Army but are more then willing to have them pay for school. I had a Dentist a few years ago who pulled that on me. I sent him to BOLC in a class that started in two weeks. Needless to say he cried but guess what happened when Dental Command found out he ducked out for two years. He was given a choice of dishonorable discharge plus paying back 4 years worth of private school loans. That must have been a good motivator because the subject was never mentioned again.

I have said this before if you don't want to be in the military don't bother to sign up for scholarships, loan repayment etc. It's real disservice to your fellow soldiers.

I've been on active duty longer than most of the people who run OBC. Furthermore, like the OP, my commission is through ROTC - not HPSP. Collectively, that means I know more about what's going on than the cadre do. What I don't know is 100% useless to my job - a fact that even the Army recognizes. They might as well use OBC to teach an infantry officer how to take out an appendix. My desire to avoid OBC has nothing to do with shirking my responsibilities and everything to do with the fact that the Army, its soldiers, and I lose when I spend months mindlessly in a classroom.

 

[pgg]

And second, what happens if I just never bother? I'm hoping that the new initiative will fade and they'll forget about me again unless I get slotted to deploy (and then of course I'll have to do it.)

Whether you go to OBC or not, the Army will give you ALL the military-specific training you really need in the month+ predeployment workup.


I went to OIS (the Navy version of OBC) in 1997. I was very disappointed and felt it was a waste of my time.

Except the ship sinking damage control training in the great big underwater simulator, that was cooler than Disneyland. The rest of it was garbage, and believe me I have gained some truly expert perspective on garbage mandatory training after 14 years in the Navy.

It was six weeks. A very dysfunctional six weeks. I assume OBC is much the same.

I'm always surprised that people do everything to avoid going to BOLC. You signed up for the Army and to be an Army Officer one of your obligations is to attend BOLC. I have over 26 years of time on Active and Reserve combined.

26 years in, pre-health, not pre-med. Check.

I had a Dentist a few years ago who pulled that on me. I sent him to BOLC in a class that started in two weeks.

You sure got him good!


Sigh. And this is why we hate your kind.

You'd pull a practicing physician from his clinic - probably a backlogged clinic with access problems, at that. You'd take him away from the duties the military paid huge sums to train him to do, and for what purpose? To check a box.

And while he's at OBC and a soldier calls his clinic for an appointment, only to be deferred or get his new-patient appointment squished into a 15-min followup slot 7 weeks later? Your kind doesn't care about that kind of issue, so long as the box is checked.

I have said this before if you don't want to be in the military don't bother to sign up for scholarships, loan repayment etc. It's real disservice to your fellow soldiers.

I agree with this, except for the bit where you use the word "scholarship" ...

 

[Mirror Form]

I'm always surprised that people do everything to avoid going to BOLC. You signed up for the Army and to be an Army Officer one of your obligations is to attend BOLC.

Nice example of the concrete thinking that's common among stereotypical super idiots.

People who have the ability to think can see the difference between "obligations" like taking care of our troops, versus "obligations" like attending Don't Ask Don't Tell training.

I have over 26 years of time on Active and Reserve combined. It still amazes me that people don't want to be in the Army but are more then willing to have them pay for school.

Huh, where in my post above did I say I didn't want to be in the Army? The Army spent a lot of money training me to take care of our soldiers, retirees, and dependents. I've been busting my tail doing that for years. It's ridiculous to send me to some useless and redundant training for 2 months, especially considering that it wouldn't benefit anyone. The Army hospital I work at would lose work load, the patients would lose access to care, and I wouldn't learn anything new (I was cadet in college and have already done a lot more FTX's than most doctors).

I had a Dentist a few years ago who pulled that on me. I sent him to BOLC in a class that started in two weeks. Needless to say he cried but guess what happened when Dental Command found out he ducked out for two years. He was given a choice of dishonorable discharge plus paying back 4 years worth of private school loans. That must have been a good motivator because the subject was never mentioned again.

Good job teaching those lazy healthcare providers a lesson! Can you believe that a dentist would rather practice dentistry than do CBRNE for the 20th time? Talk about unpatriotic!!!!

And I bet you taught his patients a lesson too. Here they probably thought they had access to care, only to find out their appointments were canceled or they were squeezed into a rushed double booked slot and received substandard exams/treatment.

I have said this before if you don't want to be in the military don't bother to sign up for scholarships, loan repayment etc. It's real disservice to your fellow soldiers.

I couldn't agree more! Now please get out of the military. You're the typical hypocritical lifer who thinks he's god's gift to the Army, but in reality you're just another useless super-idiot who does nothing except get in the way of soldiers who do the real work.

 

[haujun]

Does anyone know what happens if you never sign up for OBLC? Ever since I missed the cutoff for constructive credit for OBLC, I've been doing my best to avoid it.

They tried making me go a couple years ago when I finished residency, but I just never signed up and pretty soon it was all full (darn!). I never heard anything about it again until recently. Apparently there is a new initiative by the Army to make sure all doctors have done it. I've gotten two emails about it now telling me I'm supposed to sign up. First, I have no idea how to sign up. And second, what happens if I just never bother? I'm hoping that the new initiative will fade and they'll forget about me again unless I get slotted to deploy (and then of course I'll have to do it.)

Any possible repercussions? It seems like a huge waste for me to go to OBLC. It would cost the hospital a ton of RVU's, decrease the patient's access to care, and probably just screw up my clinic.

I understand your concerns. I am glad I went to OBC after MSI year and I cannot imagine doing this during or after residency. If you get tired seeing patients it may not be bad taking few weeks off from the clinic. Maybe you will learn something.😀

 

[notdeadyet]

Just to clarify: folks are blowing off steam about not wanting to go to BOLC just because it's awkward to arrange during residency, right?

Having to go to BOLC is in everyone's contract pretty plain, so this isn't taking anyone by surprise, right? A few months of additional training that wasn't expected would be a major gripe, but everyone saw BOLC coming when they joined, no?

 

[colbgw02]

Just to clarify: folks are blowing off steam about not wanting to go to BOLC just because it's awkward to arrange during residency, right?

Having to go to BOLC is in everyone's contract pretty plain, so this isn't taking anyone by surprise, right? A few months of additional training that wasn't expected would be a major gripe, but everyone saw BOLC coming when they joined, no?

No one goes to BOLC during residency; the ACGME won't go for it. We're talking about after residency, which for some people - like myself - is half a decade after coming onto active duty. Since time immemorial, the Army has granted constructive credit (CC) for OBC/BOLC after you've been on active duty for at least 2 years. The (surprisingly logical) thinking was that if you've spent that much time on AD, then BOLC has nothing left to teach you. Getting CC was almost automatic. They changed that a few years ago so that it's pretty much impossible to get CC. Now the Army wastes everyone's time and resources by sending attending physicians to sit in a classroom and learn about convoys and how to salute. It is galactically stupid.

 

[pgg]

Just to clarify: folks are blowing off steam about not wanting to go to BOLC just because it's awkward to arrange during residency, right?

Having to go to BOLC is in everyone's contract pretty plain, so this isn't taking anyone by surprise, right? A few months of additional training that wasn't expected would be a major gripe, but everyone saw BOLC coming when they joined, no?

When they joined, yes. If the military can't get you there before you come on active duty, sending you years later after being on active duty for a non-trivial period of time makes no sense and there is precedent for it being waived. (Unless some office pogue gets excited about it.)

I almost missed OIS in 1997 because the Navy screwed up and my orders weren't cut until 2 days before the class started (they also sent them to some random recruiter in Las Vegas instead of to me in California). If I had missed it, my first opportunity to go would've been after internship, before GMO time. You better believe I would've fought tooth & nail to avoid OIS after USUHS and an inservice internship.

Common sense does prevail sometimes. My MS1-2 summer non-medical military experience (required by USUHS) fell through because the line unit's schedule changed at the last minute. There was talk of making me waste an MS4 elective to meet that requirement. Cooler heads eventually prevailed, USUHS waived it, and I ended up doing an extra SICU month.

 

[haujun]

. Since time immemorial, the Army has granted constructive credit (CC) for OBC/BOLC after you've been on active duty for at least 2 years. The (surprisingly logical) thinking was that if you've spent that much time on AD, then BOLC has nothing left to teach you. Getting CC was almost automatic. They changed that a few years ago so that it's pretty much impossible to get CC. Now the Army wastes everyone's time and resources by sending attending physicians to sit in a classroom and learn about convoys and how to salute. It is galactically stupid.

You actually learn more than how to salute. Having been to basic training (enlisted) followed by 4 years of enlisted service I still attended few weeks of OBC between MSI and MSII. This was almost 10 years ago. I do not think those two years you spent in active duty made you knowlegeable to be exempt from attending BOLC. Without BOLC you cannot attend further military training. It is a part of professional obligation and development as Army officer. I think the main reason is that you are about leave in few years and it feels waste of time going to BOLC now.🙄

 

[J-Rad]

If the source of his commission was ROTC and not HPSP-as alluded to in post #4 and stated in #6-then what additional material is there to learn? COT/OIS/OLBC all seem to be condensed versions of their longer counterparts for accessioning/training non-direct commisioned officers (BOT/OCS[Navy]/OCS[Army]). ROTC covers the same material to my knowledge. Also, to my knowledge, the AF and Navy exempt those with prior commisioning sources (ROTC completed, Academy, OCS) from the condensed courses listed above. Since the OP is a ROTC grad, then going to one of those courses does indeed seem galactically stupid and fraudulent, wasteful, and abusive.

 

[colbgw02]

You actually learn more than how to salute. Having been to basic training (enlisted) followed by 4 years of enlisted service I still attended few weeks of OBC between MSI and MSII. This was almost 10 years ago. I do not think those two years you spent in active duty made you knowlegeable to be exempt from attending BOLC. Without BOLC you cannot attend further military training. It is a part of professional obligation and development as Army officer. I think the main reason is that you are about leave in few years and it feels waste of time going to BOLC now.🙄

Yeah, well, you may not think that two years on AD is enough to exempt someone, but the Army sure did think is was, as evidenced by the thousands upon thousands of officers who were given constructive credit. Considering that the BOLC curriculum hasn't changed appreciably in the last few years, the policy change to deny CC is quite arbitrary despite your personal feelings on how beneficial the training might be.

 

[pgg]

You actually learn more than how to salute.

Really? Like what? Aside from marching, that is.

Maybe Army OBC is different than Navy OIS? Maybe these indoctrination courses have evolved in the last 15 years?


I really can't say anything positive about OIS, except that it eventually ended. And that I met and suffered alongside some cool people.

We were given ratty copies of "7 Habits Of Highly Successful People" and other pop culture self-help tripe and "taught" to be "leaders" ...

Altogether, perhaps 50+ hours spent practicing marching.

Innumerable examples of being ordered to do pointless, trivial tasks, apparently only to remind us all that we were subject to orders. Best example of that - my company spent a couple days painting part of a building. Without paintbrushes; we were given latex gloves so we could dip our hands in the paint and smear it on the surface. When we did a crappy job, we were told to do it again.

My company's primary instructor was a NC officer. At the time I wasn't really clued in to the MC/NC thing; all I knew was that this O3 seemed to have one hell of a chip on his shoulder and a cranky attitude toward the med students.


Honestly - truly - I arrived at OIS with an overwhelmingly favorable opinion of the Navy, a positive attitude, and an eagerness to learn about the Navy. I wanted to be a good officer. Really. I was actually kind of dorky about my enthusiasm. Within literally MINUTES of my arrival some prior-enlisted terminal-rank ensign on his retirement assignment was giving us (a class full of O1 med students and O3 dental grads) **** about sunglasses. We didn't even have uniforms yet, just a gaggle of people with suitcases, and Navy Authority Figure is ranting about how inappropriate sunglasses are. They did their level best to make me regret joining the Navy.

I endured it, and gladly my time at USUHS, intern year, GMO tour, 2 deployments, and residency were excellent and generally devoid of similar abuse. I'm now ~2 years into my first staff tour and while I have some quibbles about inefficient and wasteful Navy medical culture, I'm still basically happy with the Navy and grateful to be able to serve the best patient population in the world.

At this point in my career, I don't think I could make it through that course without getting myself court martialled.


If OBC now is anything like OIS was, and you can honorably avoid going at this point in your career, don't. You have better things to do.


OK, I'm done griping about OIS.

 

[notdeadyet]

We're talking about after residency, which for some people - like myself - is half a decade after coming onto active duty. Since time immemorial, the Army has granted constructive credit (CC) for OBC/BOLC after you've been on active duty for at least 2 years. The (surprisingly logical) thinking was that if you've spent that much time on AD, then BOLC has nothing left to teach you. Getting CC was almost automatic. They changed that a few years ago so that it's pretty much impossible to get CC.

Ah. This makes sense. This is really just an issue for a few years of folks who signed up when CC was still being given to exempt out of BOLC, but later had policy change on them. I joined a couple of years ago and they were very specific that everyone would be going to BOLC at some point, come hell or high water.

Anyway, condolences to you and those in your class. If it's any consolation (and it probably isn't), it shouldn't be a surprise for those who came after you.

 

[notdeadyet]

Yeah, well, you may not think that two years on AD is enough to exempt someone, but the Army sure did think is was, as evidenced by the thousands upon thousands of officers who were given constructive credit. Considering that the BOLC curriculum hasn't changed appreciably in the last few years, the policy change to deny CC is quite arbitrary despite your personal feelings on how beneficial the training might be.

I'm not sure how arbitrary it is. AMEDD has had a silo effect for years that's been a frustration to lots of other folks in the Army. The Army has taken the stance that everyone should have the same baseline of training for the basic elements of being a soldier.

Personally, I don't have a beef with it. It's good to have a common skillset so that should the need arise (even if the odds are long), you'll know how to use an M16/M9, call in a medevac, read a freakin' map, etc.

Chaplains have to do it too. So do JAG officers. While we docs are special, I don't think we should be exempt from the training every officer goes through. That said, I don't know why they don't send AMEDD officers who have two + years in uniformed service to the Reserve Corps flavor of BOLC. It's only 4 weeks and the fat they trimmed was largely death-by-powerpoint classroom stuff that anyone in the Army for a couple of years has already gone through ad naseum (all that sexual harrassment, information awareness, safe driving, etc. stuff adds up).

But again, it's a bummer for a few years of folks who thought they'd exempt out with CC.

 

[colbgw02]

I do think it's arbitrary, but we'll just agree to disagree on that one. It's also about the fact that I learned all of the things you listed in much greater depth as an ROTC cadet. There was a point in my life that I pretty much had FM 7-8 memorized. I'm not trying to pass myself off as G.I. Joe, but considering the training at OBC/BOLC is nominal at best, I've been there, done that dozens of times over. I've spoken to scores of people who've passed through OBC/BOLC, and I really believe that they have nothing left to teach me. If they were to change the curriculum, then I might change my tune. As it is, this is all about checking the box and nothing more.

 

[notdeadyet]

It's also about the fact that I learned all of the things you listed in much greater depth as an ROTC cadet.

Sure, but what percentage of AMEDD new accessions are ROTC? 5%? 10% at most? What percent are prior service? Maybe 10%

I'd guess (and feel free to disagree with me here) that more than 3/4 of HPSP folks have had zero exposure to the military in any format. I'd have no problem with ROTC folks and other rarities with significant training exempt from BOLC, but I find it hard to argue with the notion that if someone is commissioned and wearing the uniform, they should at least have basic officer training just like everyone else in the Army.

But I feel for you. Doing the ROTC thing and being told you'd get a pass from BOLC and then having to do BOLC must suck. My condolences.

 

[colbgw02]

Sure, but what percentage of AMEDD new accessions are ROTC? 5%? 10% at most? What percent are prior service? Maybe 10%

I'd guess (and feel free to disagree with me here) that more than 3/4 of HPSP folks have had zero exposure to the military in any format. I'd have no problem with ROTC folks and other rarities with significant training exempt from BOLC, but I find it hard to argue with the notion that if someone is commissioned and wearing the uniform, they should at least have basic officer training just like everyone else in the Army.

But I feel for you. Doing the ROTC thing and being told you'd get a pass from BOLC and then having to do BOLC must suck. My condolences.

Fair enough. I'm not really trying to say that I don't think there's any benefit to BOLC. I think it makes sense to send a newly minted HPSP 2LT to BOLC for some "indoctrination". By extension, I think one could argue that sending an HPSP-commissioned doc to BOLC is reasonable. I would disagree with that assertion, but I can see it. I just think that for someone like me, BOLC is a complete waste of time. I'm accustomed to having the Army waste my time, so that in and of itself isn't unique. It's really that they're wasting my time when I might otherwise be working as a fully-trained attending physician, which is - after all - the job they hired me to do.

 

[haujun]

Fair enough. I'm not really trying to say that I don't think there's any benefit to BOLC. I think it makes sense to send a newly minted HPSP 2LT to BOLC for some "indoctrination". By extension, I think one could argue that sending an HPSP-commissioned doc to BOLC is reasonable. I would disagree with that assertion, but I can see it. I just think that for someone like me, BOLC is a complete waste of time. I'm accustomed to having the Army waste my time, so that in and of itself isn't unique. It's really that they're wasting my time when I might otherwise be working as a fully-trained attending physician, which is - after all - the job they hired me to do.

I don't know if BOLC is any different from OBC, but when I went to OBC about 10 years ago the class was varied military experiences: I went there with 4 year enlisted/NCO, ROTC cadets, Westpointers, Prior Special force 17 years NCO-USU student with rest filled with military infants (HPSP). You are right. I got EFMP and I was soldier-medic for 4 years. I really did not learn a lot more than other military infants, but I learn few things. I think they go over AMEDD, its hx, war, our role in war, writing NCO eval. I also learn that the much easier life of becoming officer (hotel accomodation, respect etc..).

I think you are ahead of your class if you know Army like you to waste your time.Everything is relative however. As officer Army waste less of your time even much less when you are becoming a doctor. For example other military officers complained that our OBC was water down version of theirs. Army wastes NCO time much much more.

Don't spend too much complaining about it as it will not change anything as others would have done OBLC during all these complaints. Army will however listen to your complaints if you went to OBLC and complain afterwards. Write letter to policy makers. Then they will either change the course OR exempts few people.

As for military wanting you to become full trained physicians I think you know the half truth. If that was the case military woud have just hired contractors to work in the hospital. Military wants you become more than a doctor. My hope is that I hope some of you learn the answer to that at OBLC. Good luck

 

[Mace1370]

Just to put in a different perspective, I did OBLC before my first year of med school and had no prior military experience. It was largely a waste of time, but I did learn a few things (mostly how to put a uniform on). Probably the highlight for me was seeing the cadre run around confused about how to deal with an ex-delta force 2LT who was in jeans and a tshirt for the first week and a half .

 

[Mr. Freeze]

It's not about you.