# of programs to rank?

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Loves_Chai

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Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knew statistics on what % of people get their #1 choice in PMR, top two, top three, etc. Isn't it 60% get their top, 70% get one of their top two and 80-85% top three.

How guareented are you to get your top say 4 - 5?

Let's say for example you interviewed to the top programs like RIC, Stanford, Harvard,U Wash, Mayo etc. How many should you rank?

What about programs like UMich, Colorado, San Antonio, etc. added to the mix?

thanks
 
60% get their first choice??? I dont think that can be a recent stat. I know several people from my school that didnt match at all last year for pmr, and I think its even more competitive this year.

By the way, what do other DO students think about the bomb that UPenn dropped regarding internship...what the hell is up with that??
 
Huh? Didn't even match at all? That doesn't sound right....at least, I hope not.

I'm only ranking 7 programs...I rotated at 3 of them, however, so I'm pretty sure that I will be matchign in my top 3.

LovesChai, if you only applied to the Top 10, you should definitely rank as many as possible...
 
I'm going to rank 10 - and I rotated at 2 of them. I think I have an OK chance at getting within the top 5.

The internship at UPenn, when I applied at least, was not yet official. Did you hear otherwise?

I don't think UPenn had very good accrediation history up until now. (I heard through the grapevine that they have 2yrs accreditation.) So I'm not sure if the PGY1 positions really will happen. DO students I think have to have AOA approval - not sure if their PGY1 year qualifies. I know that a resident at RIC got his PGY1 yr there approved.
 
yeah...I dont know how much doing a rotation at the place you want to go really helps when it comes match time. I know that when I interviewed at the two places where I did rotations, there were several other applicants that also did rotations there. One of the programs got some 400+ applicants for 4 spots and the other got about the same for 9 spots. This year has been the most competitive year for pmr that the field has probably ever seen. There are 35 people from my class that applied this year. I thought my chances were decent until UPenn crucified the DO applicants with their 4 year plan. Unfortunately Im only gonna rank 5 places and they are all pretty tough to get into. Its not lookin good for me, but I wish you all the best of luck....
 
Hrm. I dunno, but I think that the # of interviews that a program gives out is more important than the # of applications. I know of several programs who received over 500 applications, and yet they only interviewed like 10% of those applicants.

I thought that doing a good job on a rotation at a program you are interested in really does help...I mean, you get a letter of rec from a faculty member (who hopefully will go to bat for you when they rank) as well as getting to know the residents, who also have input.

Oh well, it's too late to worry now! :laugh:
 
Originally posted by Dr. G
By the way, what do other DO students think about the bomb that UPenn dropped regarding internship...what the hell is up with that??

Here is the e-mail that I got from UPenn:

"Dear Osteopathic Applicant:

Thank you again for your interest in our residency training program. As we discussed during the interview process, we are finalizing plans to add a PGY-1 (internship) year to our program, thus making our program a four year, integrated program. We are writing to give you an urgent update, based on recent information received pertaining to match procedures for graduates of Osteopathics schools.

We have recently learned that there are two sets of circumstances under which Osteopathic graduates can complete an internship in our program at Penn. First, our program could possibly be accredited by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA). We have had recent conversations with the AOA regarding
the pursuit of "dual accreditation"; this would enable Osteopathic graduates to enter our program directly via the match as PGY-1s. However, the AOA requires that a minimum of four (4) intern positions be offered as a condition of seeking this dual accreditation. Since our program is smaller than those in other disciplines (e.g., Medicine, Family Practice) and only has 4 positions at each level, including the PGY-1 year, this rule would in effect require us to offer internships to only Osteopathic graduates. Such an approach would be at variance with our tradition of considering all applications fairly, whether MD or DO graduates. It is fair to say that the receipt of this information from the AOA on Friday, January 16, 2004 was unexpected.

Secondly, the AOA has also advised us that there is a procedure in place whereby individuals can petition the AOA to receive approval after completion of the internship of a non-AOA accredited internship. This is called the "Resolution 42" process. Decisions are made by the AOA on an individual, case by case basis. So it is possible for you to come here as a PGY-1 without our program being AOA accredited. However, in those circumstances it would be your decision alone to take the risk of this approach; the risk as well as the outcome would be shifted to you, and would be a matter of negotiation between you and the AOA.

Because we are committed to adding the internship to our program, and because of our institution's commitment to provide funding for all four of these intern positions, we will offer all 4 positions in this year's match as PGY-1 positions. And, we will prepare our rank list as per our usual procedure of equal consideration of all interviewees. We feel that it is in your best
interests to be made aware of this situation well in advance of the pending NRMP match, as it could have an impact on your decision process concerning your personal rank list.

If you have questions about this information, please don't hesitate to contact us."
 
Pertaining to UPenn, it also seems that the AOA is again trying to screw us. Unfortunately, PA is one of the 5 states that require an AOA internship in order to practice within the state. I actually liked this program a lot and will still rank it. The AOA must first increase the quantity and QUALITY of AOA-accredited residencies. There is not enough residency positions for every DO student to begin with despite increasing the # of DO schools. And not everyone wants to do FP. There is only Michigan State University, which is dual AOA/ACGME accredited. Thank goodness that allopathic PM&R programs are very receptive to DOs.

To be safe, I would rank almost all the programs that you interviewed at. There are definitely more applicants this year. Last year, one student at my school match into his 5th choice, which was U of M, and he wanted to stay in the East Coast. Another student ranked only programs in Manhattan and did not match at all. I think that you have keep your options open with this year's match.

With the AOA's resolution 42, many DOs have taken advantage of this. Also, I heard through the grapevine that Florida is going to eliminate the AOA internship requirement starting this year. I am also ranking PM&R programs that start at PGY1 (i.e. San Antonio, East Carolina, U of Pitt) and may take the risk with resolution 42. FYI, U of Pitt does give DO residents an AOA-accredited internship at UPMC McKeesport if they match there.
 
Regarding UPenn...

I don't think the AOA is screwing up. Of course, they are *****s for not trying to work with an ivy league institution that actually wants to provide an AOA internship. However, Penn was not clear at the interview that a PGY1 position would be madatory and our AOA match is Friday (no notice.)

So, are you DOs who are ranking PGY1 programs opting out of the DO match? If you don't match at one of those programs will you just scramble for an internship?

J-rod

MDs:

Does this change the way you will rank a program? PGY1 vs PGY2?
 
therein lies the dilemma...I for one do not want to scramble for an internship. With everything being so unsure as far as residency is concerned, I think its important to go to a program that will train you well as an intern. If I dont match for rehab, I am going to have to learn how to mangae patients for whatever field I choose after that. To me scrambling really isnt an option. I already promised one particular program that I will come to their internship program, and I dont intend on backing out now. Its too much of a gamble, and in my opinion not worth it. I personally don't think its fair that penn employs this new policy now, almost match time. Perhaps they didnt realize that doing so now, it may hurt rather than help osteopathic applicants. Perhaps penn knew this would happen and had no intention of ranking osteopathic applicants...whatever the case, I dont think it was a fair move. Either way, I will not be ranking penn at all....their loss...
 
Originally posted by J-rod
Regarding UPenn...

I don't think the AOA is screwing up. Of course, they are *****s for not trying to work with an ivy league institution that actually wants to provide an AOA internship. However, Penn was not clear at the interview that a PGY1 position would be madatory and our AOA match is Friday (no notice.)

So, are you DOs who are ranking PGY1 programs opting out of the DO match? If you don't match at one of those programs will you just scramble for an internship?

J-rod

MDs:

Does this change the way you will rank a program? PGY1 vs PGY2?

I already had plans to scramble for an AOA internship. The overwhelming majority of osteopathic internship never fills up. There are a few other PGY1 PM&R programs that I will be ranking. One AOA internship program that gave me a verbal offer actually told me to focus on getting PM&R residency first and call back once I get the match results.

During my interview on Dec. 15th, the PD specifically said that they would be changing the program into a 4-year residency starting with next year's group of applicants. Certainly, UPenn's decision has changed how I will rank this program.

BTW, I have spoken to a few MD applicants and they say that UPenn's decision has affected them too.
 
I have been told that tha hoops to jump through to gain licensure after completing an allo residency with no internship are minimal at best. The AOA really wants to quit alienating its docs just because they dont want to be cheap labor. I have heard that a few pages of paperwork and maybe some OMM CME is all that is necessary these days. Anyone else?
 
Originally posted by Idiopathic
I have been told that tha hoops to jump through to gain licensure after completing an allo residency with no internship are minimal at best. The AOA really wants to quit alienating its docs just because they dont want to be cheap labor. I have heard that a few pages of paperwork and maybe some OMM CME is all that is necessary these days. Anyone else?

You are indeed correct. OMM CME may work but you can also attend the annual AOA convention (which is always awesome! That's how I started learning about PM&R), or do some osteopathi research project, etc. You only need 2 months of medicine, and 1 month each of ER, peds, FP, ob/gyn, and surgery. This is very possible with any transitional year program. Even UPenn's PGY1 schedule can easily fit the AOA's criteria for approval of ACGME residency. Check out these 2 links:

http://www.aoa-net.org/PostDoc/ppn.htm
http://www.aoa-net.org/PostDoc/aboutres42.htm
 
Well,

It looks like we DOs made a decision one way or the other regarding taking internship spots. Many of them did go unfilled this year so if you banked on this and are applying for both PGY1 and PGY2 PM&R positions you are lucky.

Anyone heard of people not getting approval through the AOA for transitional years. If you fulfill the requirements with a 4-yr rehab program would they still try to make you do another year (Like people used to have to do for medicine?)

Thanks,

J-rod
 
Originally posted by J-rod
It looks like we DOs made a decision one way or the other regarding taking internship spots. Many of them did go unfilled this year so if you banked on this and are applying for both PGY1 and PGY2 PM&R positions you are lucky.

As a tip, since the large majority of AOA internships never fill up, I think that it is best to scramble into an internship. Probably 99% of the time, the AOA internship of your choice will always be open, at least in my state.
 
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