Off-Topic Continuation about Drexel's Program Closure

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I agree. It's disgusting how some of these doctors will try to guilt you for wanting to live normally. It really speaks to the manipulation that prevalent in the field.

The tired old trope of "At least your weekends are free! Compare that to your surgery colleagues who'd dream to have free weekends!" It's very manipulative. Well, radoncs, like surgeons, are a self-selected population. A significant part of the intrigue with radonc had to do with its reputation as a supposed lifestyle specialty. No med student went into surgery expecting a lifestyle specialty, they know what they signed up for. So did we ... or at least, we thought so.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I mean - what is your definition of a lifestyle specialty though? Decent hours with no weekend for relatively good pay and really no emergencies is what many would consider a 'lifestyle' specialty. Maybe your definition is different than most, but don't attempt to speak for others.

Like really, Rad Onc has problems, but in terms of lifestyle, what would you call MORE of a 'lifestyle 'specialty? Derm yeah. Rads? yeah, other than they may have to work nights, but that can be fine for some people. Optho? I have multiple friends in large PP optho groups. Yeah they do very well, but they also work a lot of hours, their call can be busy, they cover multiple hospitals in a wide range of travel and may have to go between areas an hour or more apart on a given day.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Leadership (e.g. chairs) might seem like big fish, but there are bigger fish (hospital CEO's), and bigger fish still (legislators, insurers, healthcare reimbursement environment). Even if they wanted to act unilaterally, I'm not sure they could. Shrugs.
They acted unilaterally to add dozens of spots annually for years without any of those other entities being involved
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
***whooosh***

Bluebubbles' entire point is how the changing landscape of medicine changed the infrastructure of the field.
 
I mean - what is your definition of a lifestyle specialty though? Decent hours with no weekend for relatively good pay and really no emergencies is what many would consider a 'lifestyle' specialty. Maybe your definition is different than most, but don't attempt to speak for others.

Like really, Rad Onc has problems, but in terms of lifestyle, what would you call MORE of a 'lifestyle 'specialty? Derm yeah. Rads? yeah, other than they may have to work nights, but that can be fine for some people. Optho? I have multiple friends in large PP optho groups. Yeah they do very well, but they also work a lot of hours, their call can be busy, they cover multiple hospitals in a wide range of travel and may have to go between areas an hour or more apart on a given day.
All I know is my med oncs re arranged their chemo pts to get a 4 day weekend over independence day, and many of them take every Fri afternoon off and take call 1/5-6 weekends.

I'm reminded of MO schedule flexibility when I call them on the golf course, while treating patients and running my decently busy Fri afternoon clinic.

I love my job and what I do, but having a 5 day a week treatment modality is a doubled-edged sword when it comes to lifestyle. You have to be there all 5 days or get coverage, unless you're at site with multiple docs around.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hit the nail on the head re: dynamics but why not point fingers? Whatever the cause, this is increasing labor supply in the setting of static—decreasing demand: literally the most basic concept in labor economics, being clearly run into the ground in a way that affects us all. New grads just bear the brunt of it because they have the least market power. Leadership is about identifying problems and acting to correct them, even if it means some incompetent attendings lose their cushy gigs. I say make it an ACGME requirement that all academic attendings see 1/5th of their patient volume uncovered. This would keep their clinical skills sharp.


I think it's better to push harder on the bolded. I think all academic attendings should have a mandatory, at least 2 to 3 month, block per year where they do not have resident coverage. If the department (other attendings, dosimetry and physics staff, etc.) wants to support an attending not pulling their weight (either due to laziness OR incompetence) without a resident forced to run their service so be it.

I just think it's hard to say 'see 1/5th of patient volume' in terms of actually measuring that. We know that case logs are not really scrutinized and there's no great way of really nailing down who is doing the contours for a certain scenario.

The fact that most if not every academic department (at least out of the n=5 that I'm familiar with) has at least one attending that is deemed incompetent by the remainder of the staff is still allowed to practice is the biggest issue in academics. I've certainly learned who I would NOT want to be treated by for the most up-to-date paradigm and techniques if I ever developed cancer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I've split off this off-topic stuff into it's own thread. If we start re-hashing the same points (again) within this thread, I will close it. Come up with new ideas not discussed (at least in this thread) and please remain on topic.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I think it's better to push harder on the bolded. I think all academic attendings should have a mandatory, at least 2 to 3 month, block per year where they do not have resident coverage. If the department (other attendings, dosimetry and physics staff, etc.) wants to support an attending not pulling their weight (either due to laziness OR incompetence) without a resident forced to run their service so be it.

I just think it's hard to say 'see 1/5th of patient volume' in terms of actually measuring that. We know that case logs are not really scrutinized and there's no great way of really nailing down who is doing the contours for a certain scenario.

The fact that most if not every academic department (at least out of the n=5 that I'm familiar with) has at least one attending that is deemed incompetent by the remainder of the staff is still allowed to practice is the biggest issue in academics. I've certainly learned who I would NOT want to be treated by for the most up-to-date paradigm and techniques if I ever developed cancer.
When Vandy established their residency program around 2000, they explicitly stated in person and on their website:
"Residents are not service providers. Attendings see and care for the patients primarily."
Those were the days. Also, at that time, every single attending in the dept. was sharp, on point, busy, and a good doctor. The only person who was a little out there was the chair, D. Hallahan, but chairs are always sui generis.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
You're either a chair or program director looking for fresh meat. My $.02


If he/she disagrees with the witch hunt, then they must be a witch... or simply a person with normal sensibilities and a reasonable temperment
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 2 users
If he/she disagrees with the witch hunt, then they must be a witch... or simply a person with normal sensibilities and a reasonable temperment
Krukenberg, the original poster whom elicited that response, still has yet to tell us how SDN has created bad rhetoric after (rightfully) pointing out the problems well before ASTRO knew about them.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
maybe in your sphere, SDN is the first place you've talked about problems with residency expansion. These things are talked about, not sure what you mean. Hell, there was an editorial about it in the red journal 7 years ago.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Canaries have been around much longer than 6 years.
 

Attachments

  • 1986 Manpower Crisis.pdf
    763.1 KB · Views: 74
  • 1992 Flynn Hussey Manpower.pdf
    410.2 KB · Views: 68
  • 1996 Too Many ROs RJ.pdf
    445.8 KB · Views: 64
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
And you're using that as proof that ASTRO/the powers at be in RO academia were aware of the problem back then? Lol

Maybe you should look at the author and then read through the thread that evilboyaa linked to


Yo - your point, which you repeat ad nauseum (like you're getting paid by SDN or something), was that SDN was the first place to talk about residency expansion being an issue, and that SDN are the 'real heroes' blah blah blah. I'm just showing you you're wrong.
 
I'm just showing you you're wrong.
Pretty sure evil already proved you were wrong actually. If you want to be a rara ASTRO shill, and **** all over SDN, the ROhub echo chamber may be more to your liking.

Better than posting blatant falsehoods like this (no one taking fellowships) without anything to substantiate it:

.
 
Last edited:
How did evil prove me wrong? I'm well aware of that Bloodbath thread, it's probably the most famous thread on this forum. I don't even know what it means to be an 'ASTRO' shill. I'm a shill for there are no 'good guys' and 'bad guys' which is your narrative. I'm not the one always acting like ASTRO is some evil force of people sitting around trying to purposefully mess with the job board so that a poor PGY5 doesn't get a job lol.
 
Calm down guys. We're all on the same side here (I think). I don't think I 'proved' xrthopeful wrong. The thread was posted in response to the article. Both groups talking about it at the same time. Discussion of recent woes (not the ones from the '90s that were actually fixed by extending residency and closing down a bunch of programs, @Chartreuse Wombat ) seemed to have started around that time.

While I don't know (or even care) that SDN was the first to talk about it (as obviously that thread started after it was published with the comments), I think this site is the main group that has continued to talk about it over the years, while the majority of academic ROs seem to have buried their heads in the sand.

Canaries in a coal mine indeed - Canaries in a Coal Mine
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Krukenberg, the original poster whom elicited that response, still has yet to tell us how SDN has created bad rhetoric after (rightfully) pointing out the problems well before ASTRO knew about them.

The posts I’m referring to are consistently posted by one of a few high-volume posters including Sphinx. In addition to the numerous inflammatory posts within various threads:

Only enter Rad Onc if you can get into a top 5 program

FUTURE RESIDENT, DO NOT BECOME A RADIATION ONCOLOGIST!!!
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
So based on previous "success" dealing with overtraining in the 1990s programs should just increase training to 5-6 years?

@evilbooyaa

I am old enough to have trained at a 3 year program. I am less sanguine that prolonging training in the 1990"s "fixed" the problem...just kicked the can down the road.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I don't think we need to extend training any longer. That being said, there was closure of programs and a radical change to ACGME requirements.... something a bit more radical than the recently proposed changes.

I wish I could still do a 3-year residency in Rad Onc. I certainly think it's feasible without having dedicated research time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
On a national basis, cutting 10% of spots might be easy, but it is more challenging for an individual department. IMHO, there are a few types of attendings:

A) Those that can function without a resident and maintain patient volume
B) Those that can function without a resident but with decreased patient volume
C) Those that can't function without a resident due to seniority/tenure, legitimate non-clinical responsibilities, or apathy/laziness
D) Those that can't function without a resident due to competency issues

My guess is: A = 15%, B = 55%, C = 15%, D = 15%. I'm actually very sympathetic towards A & B; in particular, for B, there may be pressure from higher powers to maximize or maintain patient volume. C is tough, because no matter what happens on that attending's service, they are untouchable for one reason or another, and any mistakes fall on the resident's shoulders. D is the worst. Their incompetence might've been ignored because of nepotism (daddy's a bigwig in rad onc), because their former PD/chair was afraid to discipline them, because their former residency program was a poor training environment, etc. I am hesitant to join the voices of those calling for "easier" board exams because if anything, clinical written & oral boards should be more difficult. (radbio & physics are, like, whatever). IMO, fellowships should be reserved for those that are subpar clinically, instead of those that failed to network aggressively. In any case, as much as I hate working with C or D, I would never want C or D to be uncovered, and that's what would happen if residencies started cutting spots.

There may be a component of old white men swigging expensive alcohol while conspiring to expand residencies, but the cause for workforce oversupply was and is likely more systemic/decentralized.

With the Affordable Care Act (2008-2016), there was a push towards ACO's or consolidated care delivery systems, so academic hospitals started buying up private practices. By my estimate, with 15 rad onc's per department x 100 departments, there are 1500 academic attendings nationally (including satellite/VA), and 2500 private practice attendings. Whatever the specific numbers are, the % of academics is way too high, and these academics push up the demand & reliance on residency labor because of A-D above. The culture of academics is not one of self-sufficiency; to be fair, there's a legitimate role for resident/NP/PA coverage for true clinician-educators, clinician-scientists, clinical leadership, etc. However, my guess is that compared to private practice, a 100% clinical "academic" isn't expected to run his or her clinic without a resident/NP/PA for at least part of the year. How many academic hospitals are rich and/or disciplined enough to get NP/PA's instead of residents?

One potential fix for workforce oversupply is to undo the consolidation of private practices into academic systems (which, let's be honest, are less & less academic and more & more revenue machines). It's popular for residents to clamor for attendings to be uncovered but this is a subpar solution. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. It'd be better if the pseudo-academic, 100% clinical jobs were just replaced by legit, independent private practice jobs.

In any case, it's hard for me to be upset or point fingers; workforce oversupply is just an unfortunate situation. If it sounds like it's out of my hands, that's because it is. I'm just a resident.

Speculative monologue-of-the-day over.

Yeah at some point these academic medical centers drift from there mission of teaching, research, and healthcare into what is clearly just another large corporate entity completely fixated on the bottom line.

I mean honestly can anyone tell me what the purpose of MSK swallowing up all the patients in northern NJ other than to increase revenue. Or for UPenn to suddenly buy out centers and whole hospitals? It’s not to enhance research or education.

If they continue to behave in this manner, perhaps further scrutiny is warranted
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't think we need to extend training any longer. That being said, there was closure of programs and a radical change to ACGME requirements.... something a bit more radical than the recently proposed changes.

I wish I could still do a 3-year residency in Rad Onc. I certainly think it's feasible without having dedicated research time.

It would be awesome to have a 3 year residency and come out board certified but guess what will happen. Every idiot med student will suddenly be interested in Rad Onc and programs will gladly oblige with slot expansion. Honestly with the way things are now adding a 5th year may not be too far fetched especially if they can come up with some actual useful skills we could use chemo cough cough
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top