Offers outside the match?

[Primate]

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Hi,

A number of people have advised a number of my classmates (all combined degrees) a number of times (just wanted to see how many times I could work in "a number" - yeehaw, I've done it again) that we should try to go outside the match. Is this common/occassional/rare/unheard of in path? I know a number (wheeeee) of other specialties that used to offer positions outside the match have agreed not to do so anymore - just wondering what the current state is in path.

Thanks.

PS - sorry for the punchy comments - all work and no play makes Primate's sense of humor a dull thing.

 

[Sage]

The large number of MudPhuds at my program are all encouraged to get a residency spot inside the Match. A number of our faculty mentors feel that applying to a number of programs allows us to see what's really out there and make a better residency program choice. You'll just have more data (larger n value !) when you make a decision.

As a MudPhud (with solid research and good scores) you will probably match to your number 1-2 choice. You don't need to take the back door.

 

[Primate]

Thanks. Agreed. Just curious what others were doing. I'm planning on applying anywhere that seems interesting.

Thanks again.

Best.

 

[pathstudent]

How many MD/PhD do you guys have from your school going into path?

It sounds like a lot.

I figured that there was just a small number of those (about 30-50) that all the top programs would be vying for.

It can see kind of silly to me. One student from my school had board scores in the 190s and had a MD/PhD and she went to Bringhams a couple of years back. Doesn't that board score show that for being a medical scientist she doesn't know much if any basic science. Are top programs just so bent on getting MD/PhDs that they do not care at all about training good pathologists?

 

[GreatPumpkin]

If I am not mistaken this year there are new rules about taking folks outside the match. I don't think it will be done as much as in prior years. I know last year we could take DOs outside the match, but not this year.

I will try to remember an ask my residency director about what the new rules actually say.

 

[rirriri]

Rob,

ACTUALLY, what happened is that the AMA was *supposed* to stop prematching this year, BUT they couldn't decide what they wanted to do. About a month ago, they decided that prematching IS allowed this year and will most likely be taken away next year

i'm doing my elective rotation at my #1 choice for residency in October....and every single day I will be praying that somebody loves me and decides to ask me to sign. I'm an IMG so it is part of my life.

if that happens, i will surely be jumping for the moon......you guys have any advice on how I should tactfully pursue this without looking like a gimp and aside from impressing them academically?

cheers!

 

[Primate]

Originally posted by pathstudent
How many MD/PhD do you guys have from your school going into path?

It sounds like a lot.

I figured that there was just a small number of those (about 30-50) that all the top programs would be vying for.

It can see kind of silly to me. One student from my school had board scores in the 190s and had a MD/PhD and she went to Bringhams a couple of years back. Doesn't that board score show that for being a medical scientist she doesn't know much if any basic science. Are top programs just so bent on getting MD/PhDs that they do not care at all about training good pathologists?

Hi,

My class has four CDs that are seriously thinking about AP/NP and another 2-5 thinking about path in general (probably closer to 5). There are also a number in the classes on either side of me that are interested. Last year didn't see as many - there were a bunch going to derm/ophtho/neurosurge/ortho etc. All very fine specialties (even for CDs, IMHO), but it did give our director a headache!

Agreed that a 190 seems low, but board scores certainly don't tell the whole story. I couldn't really comment on your schoolmate without knowing more. As an aside, in Boston, Brigham's is an ice cream shop - The Brigham is the hospital (I'm not giving you a hard time at all - it actually brings back fond memories . . . of ice cream).

Cheers and thanks all for the comments.

 

[Ludy]

rirriri,

If you do decide to bring up going outside the match, I would do it CAREFULLY. I know you said your top choice a while ago was "a university program in the midwest," or something to that effect. I'm currently at a good-sized university program in the midwest, and my PD has made a point of telling anyone and everyone that our program will not go outside the match. They haven't for several years now, because the PD thinks it's unfair to those who do go through the match to bypass the system like that. They've taken lots of IMGs, but all within the match. On the other hand, I'm aware that it happens all the time, even at the top programs. I'm just saying, you never know what that program's stance on it will be, so I'd try to get a sense of that from the residents before you hint about it to any attendings. Of course, if you already know that the program does it all the time, then hint away 🙂 Good luck next month!

 

[pathstudent]

OK, at risk of sounding stupid, what is a CD and what is an IMHO?

You claim to have 9 MD/PhDs going into Path? What university do you go to? That is hard to believe.

 

[rirriri]

Originally posted by Ludy
rirriri,

If you do decide to bring up going outside the match, I would do it CAREFULLY. I know you said your top choice a while ago was "a university program in the midwest," or something to that effect. I'm currently at a good-sized university program in the midwest, and my PD has made a point of telling anyone and everyone that our program will not go outside the match. They haven't for several years now, because the PD thinks it's unfair to those who do go through the match to bypass the system like that. They've taken lots of IMGs, but all within the match. On the other hand, I'm aware that it happens all the time, even at the top programs. I'm just saying, you never know what that program's stance on it will be, so I'd try to get a sense of that from the residents before you hint about it to any attendings. Of course, if you already know that the program does it all the time, then hint away 🙂 Good luck next month!

Thank you Ludy....that is very valuable advice and I appreciate it greatly.

Pre-matching varies greatly from program to program....some programs have a history of it, whereas others don't.....i don't know much about which ones do and which ones don't. I'm not really aiming for a pre-match, because I don't think that is a proper goal to have set in my mind.....I am however keeping my radars open to pick up any signals that would lead me in that direction.

I will definitely be cautious with the idea of bringing it up though (as you said) because i'm sure no PD wants to deal with an irritating student who is crying and dying for a shortcut.

cheers!

 

[Primate]

Would I lie to you? Not until I know you better. 😉

Seriously, there are THAT many people in my combined degree (CD - sorry 'bout the abbreviation) class considering path. Note that I didn't say all 9 are definitely going into path, only seriously considering it. I know that 4 have made pretty definite plans to do so. The others are on the fence, but leaning.... My CD class has in the mid to high twenties (lost track of who is coming back when, but that's about right). The number that choose path seems to be quite sinusoidal and this may just be one of the high end years.

IMHO is "in my humble opinion." Of course, it's usually not that humble to offer one's opinion in an unsolicited fashion. 🙄 😀

rirriri - As for bringing up going outside the match, I agree that this is a VERY hot potato. It's one thing to ask a general question here, but PDs are another ball of wax. Without knowing anything in particular about how to impress pathologists, I'd say just dig in, work hard and show that you're really enjoying yourself. Certainly keep your ear to the ground about how the program works, but if you do the above, it should work out (I just can't believe that path is that different from the rest of the world).

Best.

PS - pathstudent, if I worried about sounding stupid, I'd never post. Keep 'em coming. 🙂

 

[Doctor B.]

I would advise against trying to go outside the match. It is risky and you are subjecting yourself to potential problems. All it takes is an untrustworthy or forgetful program director and you're SOL. The match works well and most people get one of their top 2 or 3 in path.

 

[DermpathDO]

Going otuside the match...Ha quite a problem...then what do ou do if you are a a DO who decides to take the transitional year...or a nontraditional resdient who transfers from one specialty to another...you can't take the match can you???? What do we do in that instance

 

[rirriri]

why should a "non-traditional" candidate be given benefits Vs. a "traditional candidate"?? These candidates can go through the match just like everyone else.....they are making the choice to switch specialties...why should a candidate who is applying for the first time be given a disadvantage in this scenario??

I support pre-matching for IMGs, mainly because i am one (hahaha)....BUT I do believe it is fundamentally unfair, because It allows an advantage (maybe) for that student.

But then again, us IMGs already have the odds stacked against us, so the advantage is MINIMAL at best.....

 

[cookypuss3]

I don't know about most programs, but I know that the one I'm interested in says straight up on their website that they operate outside the match. I don't think it's so taboo, but again, that's just my place.

 

[GreatPumpkin]

Actually people who switch specialties or do a transitional year can go through the match. And, eventually that will be the only way they can go if the match people have there way.

 

[spinestudent]

rirriri, work your ass off at this university program. If they offer you a prematch spot, take it. If no word is mentioned of prematching, then don't bring the issue up. Even if this program doesn't operate with outside matches, you still have a decent shot at getting a spot through the match if you impress. And the % of US citizen IMG's who match into *some* university pathology program is very high......stop worrying 🙂

 

[rirriri]

Originally posted by spinestudent
rirriri, work your ass off at this university program. If they offer you a prematch spot, take it. If no word is mentioned of prematching, then don't bring the issue up. Even if this program doesn't operate with outside matches, you still have a decent shot at getting a spot through the match if you impress. And the % of US citizen IMG's who match into *some* university pathology program is very high......stop worrying 🙂

thanks spinestudent,

yeah, i WILL work my ass off next month....i've decided that i'm NOT gonna build my hopes up for a pre-match, because most big universities don't seem to offer them readily any more. IF i do get offered something, I will evaluate it with my situation at that point. Most likely my best chances will end up coming thru the match process.

thanks for the encouragement...i appreciate it.

CHEERS!