Office Ultrasound

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paiute

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I'm really excited about a new thing I'm doing. I borrowed a portable US from the ER and am using it routinely in my medical exams. I was always lousey at feeling livers, spleens, etc. But now, I slap a probe on the belly and I can see almost everything important. I have the patient watch while I do it. The last organ I image is the heart. They seem to really enjoy seeing their heart beating. I even convinced one young man to take his BP pills when I showed him how weakly his heart was contracting. The whole exam only takes about 1-2 minutes. I explain that I am not an expert so I am not making final diagnoses, but just doing a survey to look for obvious problems.

This is great! Anyone else doing this?
 
if your patients like it and realize it's just for kicks then I guess it makes sense.

what if you miss something on one of those scans and it's found later that you should've seen though? liability on that?
 
US isn't indicated for "routine examinations," and you admit that you haven't been properly trained in using it. This creates potential liability issues.

You're intentionally misleading patients with false statements like "your heart is beating weakly." This creates potential ethical issues.

Who cares if patients think it's fun? US isn't a toy. If you're going to use it, you should learn to use it properly.
 
BTW, I've been do'in US for 18 years, mostly as an anesthesiologist. Now, I'm expanding into primary care.

This is fantastic. It's a revolution, my friends. I want to rush out a buy a new duplex unit from Sonosite. (No, I don't work for them; they won't even answer my e-mails requesting a rep to contact me).

I think OB's started this by using it to show the expectant mothers their babies. My patients don't have babies (they are male prisoners), but they love to see their internal organs. I think I can use this to interest them in their health, e.g. junk food=fatty liver, htn=thick, tired heart or little kidneys.

I think the Europeans are way ahead of us on this. Anybody from other continents wish to comment?
 
BTW, I've been do'in US for 18 years, mostly as an anesthesiologist. Now, I'm expanding into primary care.

I wasn't aware that US was a widely-utilized modality in anesthesiology.

I'm also unclear how an anesthesiologist "expands into primary care."

Feel free to enlighten me.
 
I'm an MSIII at Wayne State in Detroit and we are actually trained on the GE machines starting in MSI with multiple training sessions each year. We learn day 1 how to do things like FAST and then continue on with using doppler, imaging for nerve impingements, etc. When we started our clinicals this year we knew more than the residents and did most of the trauma and ED imaging. I think it's an awesome modality and hope to use it in my future practice.
 
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I'm an MSIII at Wayne State in Detroit and we are actually trained on the GM machines starting in MSI with multiple training sessions each year. We learn day 1 how to do things like FAST and then continue on with using doppler, imaging for nerve impingements, etc.

You'll have to clarify what you mean by "GM," sorry.

FAST has a very narrow application.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that ultrasonography is of any value in diagnosing nerve impingement. It's certainly no better than a decent history and exam. If you're stumped, you get an EMG, not an US.

And, PLEASE tell me that you know how to properly use your stethoscope. You've gotta walk before you run.
 
GE the company.

Just tools in the box, my friend, just tools in the box. If you're interested, I can pound a nail with not only a hammer, but also a screwdriver handle, crescent wrench, rock, large stick, sledge, back of a hatchet, a heavy shoe, a strong vase, shovel...need I go on?
 
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I'm glad students, like brickhouse, are learning US. It is the "wave" of the future.
When I started using it, US was not widespread in anesthesia. It seemed I was the only one. I bought a machine in 1993 and learned how to use it to put in peripheral IV's. I had to learn myself, there were no instructions. By trial and error I finally figured it out, after 6 months of experimenting. Then it was like, wow, why didn't I try this before. I could put in a PIV in almost anyone on the first try. It also worked for arterial lines, which were even easier than PIV's.

So I bought another machine as a backup, just in case my probe failed.

Later, the cardiothoracic anes started using transesophageal US for their cases. Now that has become standard of care in that sector.

Of course, US has for years been used in OR's or ICU's to put in central lines. Few people seem to have discovered its use for PIV's, thought that is changing. I go to a ER conference soon that has a training course for US placement of PIV's.

Prior to US, I would put in a central line if I couldn't find a peripheral vein. After I learned to do it for PIV's, I rarely needed central lines anymore.

US machines are much cheaper now and more powerful. You can use it for many things. In our ER, I use it to diagnose and treat (US guided needle drainage) abscesses, knee effusions, pneumothorax, urinary retention, pericardial and pulmonary effusion, etc. If I get a duplex machine (combines doppler with 2D image), I can check for regurg, tumor vascularity, testicular torsion, etc.

Regarding transitioning into Primary Care, I have been doing that for 12 years now. I rarely do anesthesia anymore. I am a govt employee and work wherever I am needed, which right now, is PC.
 
I bought a machine in 1993 and learned how to use it to put in peripheral IV's.

I'm not trying to be rude, but...seriously? Most nurses can do that easily without using US (assuming the patient has veins and isn't dehydrated).

I bought another machine as a backup, just in case my probe failed.

I guess calling a nurse over to start the IV wouldn't have been an option? 😉

In our ER, I use it to diagnose...abscesses, knee effusions, pneumothorax, urinary retention, pericardial and pulmonary effusion, etc.

Any of those things can be diagnosed using physical examination. You shouldn't need US.

I'm not trying to say that imaging doesn't have its place. However, over-reliance on technology rather than basic history and examination skills is a pervasive problem among doctors today, and one of the major contributors to the high cost of medicine in this country.
 
blue dog, nurses are much more expensive than my little machine.

also, if an anesthesiologist has to call a nurse to start an PIV, he will soon be out of a job. the anes. is supposed to be the expert at iv's. usually its the nurse that calls the anes if he/she can't find a vein.

I agree with your distaste for relying on expensive technology, but US is cheap compared to CT, MRI, etc. And its very portable (like a laptop).

i use my stethoscope all the time, and i palpate a lot, but there are some things that only US can do.

try it, you might change your mind.
 
US is cheap compared to CT, MRI, etc.

True enough, but are you even billing for it when you use it? I don't know how that works in the prison system, but I assume you don't bill the inmates.

I'm not even sure that a hand-held US would be reimbursed in the private sector.

try it, you might change your mind.

I honestly don't see any need for it in my office. When I need an US, I can get one pretty quickly (we have our own imaging center), and I don't have to spend the time doing it or assume the liability for interpreting it.
 
I was on call last night and used it in 3 cases. The first two were young men with severe sharp pleuritic CP. Both times I clearly saw the "sliding lung sign" with my 9.5 mHz probe. I checked in 3-4 different intercostal spaces with the patient supine. This ruled out a ptx. The sensitivity is better than CXR and it is much quicker (we have to call in the XR tech from home after hours).

The second case was an older man with COPD exacerbation. He also had HCV cirrhosis so I wanted to look at the liver and GB. I used the low frequency probe (2-5 mHz) and both looked fine. The Murphy sign was negative (no pain with probe passing over GB on inspiration). This reassured me because he had so much pleuritic like CP that I was worried about missing some intraabdominal problem.

BTW, I had another young man show up in clinic c/o GERD like sx's. I took a look at his GB and it seemed to me he had gallstones. So I ordered a formal abd US. (I document in the chart that I did an "informal" scan). I am awaiting the formal report from the expert radiologist. In any case, it tweaked my DD a little.

Nobody gets charged for this. I am on salary.
 
How much did your US machine cost? Did you pay for it, or did the prison system pick up the tab?


we have two machines. the low freq one is the "mysono". (brand name) It has poor quality picture, but better than nothing. I think it was designed for OB's use to show pregnant mothers their babies in the office. Than's what I use to look at GB's and kidneys. It's not good enough for diagnosis in most cases. I don't know the cost. the prison bought it. it's about 10 years old now. old technology already.

the other machine, really an antique, was originally mine. i donated it to the prison. it has the high freq probe (9.5 mHz). it gives a really good picture of anything within 2-3 cm of the surface. so i use it for IV starts, blood draws and looking at lumps and bumps (to diff. cystic from solid masses). also, good for deciding where to do the I+D on an abscess (you see where the biggest concentration of fluid is). it works really good for r/o ptx if pt is not obese: you can see the "sliding lung" sign. obese pt's chest wall is a bit too thick for it sometimes. then i use the "mysono".

Cost of my machine with probe was about 8-10K back in 1993. same machine (with an upgraded probe: solid state vs. mechanical scan) sells for 18K now. i don't know cost of "mysono", but as i said above, its not a good machine.

from my search on the internet, Sonosite seems the best source for office US now: lots of models available. there are some other companies too. i go to the ER conf next week and i will ask the experts there what is the best machine for my use. i have been told that price is 20-30K. i'm not sure i can get duplex (doppler blood flow velocities: used to dx inflammation or malignancy) for that price.

i have another machine at home (same as the 9.5 mHz unit i donated). i use it to explore my body and my wife's. that' s how i learn. i monitor my wife's thyroid cyst and i found what looks like an adenoma in my left thyroid lobe. also, i have a small hydrocele. mine and my wife's carotids look clean. also, i check our eyes for retinal detachments: none yet. my abdominal aorta is also good, BTW. i'll keep everyone updated.
 
i have another machine at home (same as the 9.5 mHz unit i donated). i use it to explore my body and my wife's. that' s how i learn. i monitor my wife's thyroid cyst and i found what looks like an adenoma in my left thyroid lobe. also, i have a small hydrocele. mine and my wife's carotids look clean. also, i check our eyes for retinal detachments: none yet. my abdominal aorta is also good

Now you're really starting to worry me.
 
the first lecture at the ER conf is titled, "You can to THAT with ultrasound??"
i'll send an update when i get back.
 
Paiute,

I'll have to agree with BD on a couple of points... I don't think US is economically feasible in most areas of family medicine. Also, I'm worried about the associated liability issues.

With that said, I work in a couple of rural facilities where I'm usually the only doc in the hospital. No radiology available for anything other than CT's on the weekend. I routinely use US for lines and it makes sniffing out abscesses lots easier. My ER friends use it even more; one of them has done an ultrasound fellowship.

I'm not sure guys like BD will ever find it very useful. If you can get one done by an US tech and read by a radiologist on the same day in your group facility, I don't see the utility. If you practice outside those confines, I'll agree it can be a great tool.
 
I love these stories & want to hear more. Whether you are a pediatrician, internist, FP, or OB/Gyn, ultrasound is the perfect 1st line diagnostic technology for a primary care physician: cheap, safe, and real-time. For some things, it's not that great of a screening tool but it does help you a lot when you're hunting for something in particular.

The greatest disconnect is the doctors inability to use US well & the US tech's ability to do a physical exam & come up with a differential (and as much as I'd like to think radiologists can bridge that gap, most of the ones I know simply rely on their techs for the interp)... so, IMO, rather than teach US techs medicine, it's better to teach doctors USography.

The warnings about liability need to be heeded. ACR has already made a push to CMS to only pay for ACR accredited imaging centers (happened in 2009). While that push went through for stuff like MRI, CT, there was a huge protest from primary care & OB against it because it would exclude many from getting ultrasounds. So for now, ultrasound is safe for reimbursement but expect radiologists to push for quality & safety in the use of ultrasound technology (*cough* turf pissing contest).
 
Now you're really starting to worry me.

I think he's trolling at this point...or into some kinky ultrasound games with his wife. They'd be covered head to toe in u/s gel at that point.
 
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I think he is a smart man. I believe US can have a great impact in the future primary care system. The current primary care system which is a construct of insurance and the disjunct between payors and payees means we are willy nilly with resources. We don't care what the costs are to send a person to US as part of their workup and have a radiologist do a read.

As the future shifts over to more cash based practice people are going to want more done in the office by their doctor and not get shipped out to the hospital to get their labs drawn, to the imaging center down the block to get their CT, etc. And as people are paying cash for their visits either by Fee for service, retainer, or hourly rate they'll be happy to have it done right there.

Physical exam and easy IV sticks are starting to fall to the wayside as people get more and more obese. Physical exam has its limitations with sensitivity and specificity and anatomic variances, too. An US is an extra tool with its own limitations. First year radiology residents read US. There is no reason to think FP can't do it either.

I applaud him for being one of the people on the front wave of innovation. One can avoid liability issues by taking the same images that are standard for that differential. Put the images in the chart with your impression. You either have done your homework and know how to read the images or you don't, if you do, why not?
 
The Mammoth Mtn EM conf was great. I attended the US course for PIV and central lines.
UC Irvine seems to be way ahead on this. They now give an US machine to each new medical student and they start to use them the 1st year. Apparently, they get to keep the machine as their own. They also offer a month-long hands on US CME course, which I hope to take.
I purchased the Sonosite M Turbo machine at the conf. I expect delivery in a few weeks. The resolution is better and the machine is small. I purchase 3 probes, abd/cardiac, endocavitary, and vascular.
They described a case of US guided drainage of a peritonsillar abscess using the endocavitary probe. Pretty nifty.
I have the old low resolution machine in the office today. I'll be looking for any type of pathology, building my experience and skill at the same time. Someday, I'll be as good as any US tech.
 
I did see that commercial during the Winter Olympics where a doctor uses an ultrasound to examine the belly of a patient with abdominal pain. However, if you suspected cholecystitis, wouldn't a hand-palpated Murphy's sign combined with lab findings be sufficient for a referral to a surgeon?

I guess I'm not sure how the portable US will change management.

But then again, in 1980, most people didn't know why the average person would want a "computer".

Nope. Or, at least, not generally. Surgeons really want imaging to make sure they're going after the right problem. Add in the fact that physical exam findings are notoriously neither sensitive nor specific, and they'll want imaging.
 
yes, imaging seems to much more sensitive/specific than PE. the problem is the cost and radiation exposure from some types of imaging, like CT (one abd CT is said to increase lifetime risk of CA by 2%).

other than the initial capital outlay, US is cheap.

monday, i found the following abnormalities (different pts): 5 cm liver mass from metastatic melanoma (i already knew it was there from the CT scan), abd hernia with bowel in the subQ area, round hypoechoic lesion in the liver (it was not the GB), multiple, bilateral kidney cysts.

the only marginal cost was the time i spent on each (2-3 minutes). i'm on gov't salary.
 
monday, i found the following abnormalities (different pts): 5 cm liver mass from metastatic melanoma (i already knew it was there from the CT scan), abd hernia with bowel in the subQ area, round hypoechoic lesion in the liver (it was not the GB), multiple, bilateral kidney cysts.

The big question I have is, "so what?" What are you going to do about any of this stuff? Does any of it change your management or tell you anything useful that you didn't already know?

You already knew the patient had liver mets, so no need to do an US yourself.

An abdominal hernia should be palpable, and is only an issue if the patient is symptomatic. So, no need for an US.

Randomly performing US on solid organs like the liver or kidneys is bound to turn up a fairly significant number of probably benign findings, such as cysts and hemangiomas. In the real world (where we can get sued for ignoring things), these would likely require further workup in order to prove that they are benign, leading to massive waste and overtesting. This is already a problem with those LifeLine scans. There's very little evidence that screening US in asymptomatic patients is of any value whatsoever, despite the occasional random anecdote of success (although a single abdominal US in an older patient with a smoking history has been shown to be useful as a screening test for AAA).
 
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in any PE, one is likely to find abnormalities. most are benign. my job is to find the ones that may not be benign. that is a learning process. in my early years, i referred a lot of stuff that i now know to be benign. the same thing happens when you start using US.
i have to admit that i saw a strange mass near the liver on my 2nd or 3rd patient. i panicked and ordered a formal US. i cancelled the order later in the day when i realized that this was the normal right kidney!
 
in any PE, one is likely to find abnormalities. most are benign. my job is to find the ones that may not be benign.

So, how are you deciding if an incidental liver or kidney lesion is benign?
 
i order a formal US. I'm not going to ignore it, unless, like the kidney i saw, its obviously normal. same rule applies when i hear a heart murmur.

i have a mass in my left thyroid. i did a color duplex scan and it has some peripheral vascularity. the mass looks homogeneous and hypoechoic. its border is smooth. should i ignore it?
 
i have a mass in my left thyroid. i did a color duplex scan and it has some peripheral vascularity. the mass looks homogeneous and hypoechoic. its border is smooth. should i ignore it?

What does your doctor say?

Incidentally, the test of choice for evaluating a liver hemangioma is a T2-weighted MRI. Cha-ching.
 
i see my GP next week. i would be content with serial US exams to see if it changes. i really don't want to undergo fine needle bx.

yes, MRI is expensive. so maybe i should never have looked. but i am uncomfortable with that idea. i could use similar reasoning and stop listening to heart sounds, since cardiologist referrals are expensive.

lets face it: modern medical care is way too expensive. (and invasive)

Obama is trying to solve this, but i think his ideas won't work. we are all victims of our own desires: to live as long and as healthy as we can.

actually, after we have raised our children, we are not of much use: just "pull the plug" !
 
i could use similar reasoning and stop listening to heart sounds, since cardiologist referrals are expensive.

Not really the same thing at all.

You should be able to distinguish between a benign cardiac murmur and one that requires additional workup. If you're uncertain, you can order the echo yourself (much cheaper than an MRI). You don't need a cardiologist unless you find something that would require their expertise. Trust me, cardiologists hate referrals for "murmur."

we are all victims of our own desires: to live as long and as healthy as we can.

Perhaps, but more screening isn't the answer. Ever hear of the term "VOMIT?" "Victim Of Modern Imaging Technology."

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Any tool can become a weapon in the wrong hands.
 
I think I'll have to agree in some ways with you paiute and in some with BD. I think US is going to explode in terms of it's uses in the clinical setting amongst all specialties. I think it will be incredibly helpful in the PC setting to make certain diagnoses aka cholecystitis or visualizing abscesses etc. But I also agree with BD that scanning for the sake of scanning is irresponsible. The examples have already been mentioned. What if you are randomly scanning someone's thyroid and you find a nodule? Are you going to send that for biopsy or just watch it? There is no evidence as of yet to show that US screening of thyroids on a yearly basis will decrease the mortality related to thyroid cancer. I think until those studies are done and show that the screening is useful, it is irresponsible to scan someone's thyroid randomly - it will just lead to increased costs.

That doesn't mean that I don't think all med students should be trained in it - our school has an US training program as well. Perhaps in the future, we won't need to get an "official US" by a tech when as physicians we can read them ourselves.
 
Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

Agree... but along the same line:

Just because we should (distinguish a pathologic murmur from a benign one on exam, insert a peripheral IV using only the Force), doesn't mean we always can...
 
Just because we should (distinguish a pathologic murmur from a benign one on exam, insert a peripheral IV using only the Force), doesn't mean we always can...

Here's another saying: "It's the poor carpenter who blames his tools." 😉
 
Here's another saying: "It's the poor carpenter who blames his tools." 😉

Or what faculty used to say in med school "it's not your stethoscope that matters, it's what's between the ears..."

But come on, you don't really believe that there is absolutely *no* role of diagnostic ultrasound in the ambulatory outpatient setting, do you?

As much as I would like to think that my eyes and hands are as good as an MRI and my ears as good as an echocardiogram, we can all agree that it's not. Because if they were, no one would've ever invented the MRI or echo.

I don't particularly care if pauite is scanning everything that has a pulse on it. It's akin to the intern (or resident or attending) listening to every patients' "heart and lungs" at every single office visit even if it's not indicated. Fact of the matter is how else are you going to improve your diagnostic skills if you don't at least try and look. Best way to do it is to examine after the answer is known (ultrasound that liver with CT image and report in hand, even if it "doesn't change management").

The issue here is diagnostic certainty. Imaging and history & physical coincide, it's very powerful in terms of diagnostic certainty. For me, for ultrasound, it's a matter of patient selection and pre-test probability. The better you select your patients, the more the interpreter (radiologist or you, the examiner) knows about the patient and the differential diagnosis, the better the diagnosis. That after all is our job as family docs, isn't it?
 
Or what faculty used to say in med school "it's not your stethoscope that matters, it's what's between the ears..."

Exactly.

But come on, you don't really believe that there is absolutely *no* role of diagnostic ultrasound in the ambulatory outpatient setting, do you?

If I needed one, I'd already have bought one.
 
Sure. After all, if you're doing it right, imaging only confirms what we already suspect.

So why not have it readily available in the family medicine clinic? It's good for the patient and good for the doctor.
 
So why not have it readily available in the family medicine clinic? It's good for the patient and good for the doctor.

I'm not so sure of that.

Why should a primary care doctor (who's probably already strapped for cash) spend upwards of $30,000 for a device that he can't get reimbursed for using, that potentially increases his malpractice exposure (if he relies on his own interpretations as opposed to sending patients with positive findings out for definitive studies), that takes extra time to employ (you'll argue that this is "minimal," but I can tell you that every minute is precious in most primary care offices), and that rarely adds anything beyond that which can be ascertained through a good history and physical exam?
 
I'm not so sure of that.

Why should a primary care doctor (who's probably already strapped for cash) spend upwards of $30,000 for a device that he can't get reimbursed for using, that potentially increases his malpractice exposure (if he relies on his own interpretations as opposed to sending patients with positive findings out for definitive studies), that takes extra time to employ (you'll argue that this is "minimal," but I can tell you that every minute is precious in most primary care offices), and that rarely adds anything beyond that which can be ascertained through a good history and physical exam?

If you accept the way things are today, I agree with you.

But what if... (so imagine a world...)... what if we started training PGY-1 FM resident the use of ultrasound during residency. And, on every rotation they go on they take their ultrasound machine and learn how to ultrasound *in conjunction* to their regular work up.

What if... FM residencies expand and start a outpatient ultrasound fellowship to further skills and research. And not only would that include diagnostic ultrasound, but also interventional ultrasound (like ultrasound-guided amniocentesis, thoracentesis, central line placement, joint injection, breast biopsy/aspiration). I mean, these are things that FM residencies do now anyways, so why not bring it the PGY-1 level.

Your training argument goes away. We don't get reimbursed now for the Patient-Centered Medical Home... so why are we pushing so hard for it? Because if you build it, (we hope) it will pay. And so should demonstrating value in office ultrasound in the amount of cost-savings we can gain from unnecessary CT's and MRI's.

Malpractice exposure is fluid issue. FM, IM, Pedi, and ER residents learn how to read chest x-rays only for them to be "overread" by a radiologist. Does that increase the exposure for the doctor who makes the initial impression? I don't think so. OB/Gyns who send their OB ultrasounds to radiology for a "formal" ultrasound or a "formal" biophysical profile do the same thing to hedge their malpractice. No reason why an FP who has an equivocal ultrasound can't send for a "formal" ultrasound or a more advanced imaging (like MRI). If FM residents learn how to interpret ultrasound during residency x 3 years, this malpractice issue really goes away too. I trust an OB/Gyn doc interpreting my OB ultrasounds more so than a radiology TECH (and remotely, after-the-fact, with no clue where the probe is pointed/located... a radiologist signing off). But that's because it's an OB doctor who knows OB and does OB *and* trains 4 years with an ultrasound probe in hand. That beats a tech who couldn't give a damn anyday. But our medical system won't pay an OB doctor to provide the formal interpretation for ultrasounds in the hospital because he/she isn't a radiologist and may not have privileges to do so... because such an act is the turf of a radiologist... BUT, in the outpatient setting, an OB/Gyn can get paid for interpreting an ultrasound they perform... (figure that one out...)

I actually think my malpractice exposure would decrease because I'm not shooting at the hip with a "hand palpating for a positive Murphy's sign" and then placing a referral for insurance to approve my order for ultrasound and then scheduling the patient for an outpatient ultrasound 2-3 weeks later to be done by a tech because that's the first opening when he gets back from vacation.

If I had the skill to do it, I would do it, bam bam, nail the diagnosis, and move on to treatment. Patients come to the doctor for answers. None of this, hey, let's wait for the natural history of the disease to progress to elucidate the diagnosis with more certainty. Or, this willy-nilly ordering of CT or MRI because I can't get a good history or physical exam.

Diagnostic ultrasound, done by a PHYSICIAN, at the bedside in conjunction with a H&P with properly formulated DDX can be incredibly powerful.

The fact that you can use an ultrasound machine for virtually any body organ spreads the cost of the machine out over several service lines. In economics, they call it Economies of Scope (as opposed to Scale). And so, yes, while it is expensive, it can be used for multiple purposes for multiple organs in multiple types of patients (like pedi or OB) who have multiple range of resources (cheaper than an MRI and doesn't require 1 hour in a claustrophobic tube).

But it must be in good technical hands. But that's why we're doctors. And that's why we go to medical school. And that's why we train in residency. There's no reason why we can't be good in ultrasound. If we can train residents to do c-sections, relocate broken bones, insert central lines, run codes, intubate, perform colonoscopies, read CXR, etc. etc., we sure hell can train them to do ultrasounds.

The question is, do we have the political will do make it happen?... That's the real question.
 
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If you accept the way things are today, I agree with you.

Read my signature line. 😉

I should elaborate.

And so should demonstrating value in office ultrasound in the amount of cost-savings we can gain from unnecessary CT's and MRI's.

Actually, it's much more likely that widespread use of in-office US would increase the number of CTs and MRIs performed. See above.

If FM residents learn how to interpret ultrasound during residency x 3 years, this malpractice issue really goes away too.

No, it doesn't. We learn to read x-rays, too...but we'd be idiots not to have them over-read by a radiologist.

in the outpatient setting, an OB/Gyn can get paid for interpreting an ultrasound they perform.

Do you want to pay malpractice premiums like an OB/Gyn? I don't.

I actually think my malpractice exposure would decrease because I'm not shooting at the hip with a "hand palpating for a positive Murphy's sign"

Murphy's sign actually has a very high sensitivity and negative predictive value.

http://www.hospitalphysician.com/pdf/hp_nov00_murphy.pdf
In a study that compared various clinical measures of cholecystitis to hepatobiliary scanning, the estimated sensitivity of Murphy's sign was 97.2%, and the specificity was 48.3%. The positive predictive value in this study was 70%, and the negative predictive value was 93.3%.
 
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But what if... (so imagine a world...)... what if we started training PGY-1 FM resident the use of ultrasound during residency. .

its already happening...

I was told that UC Irvine is giving an US unit to every MS1 which they get to keep. they start using right away doing physical exams.
 
its already happening...

I was told that UC Irvine is giving an US unit to every MS1 which they get to keep. they start using right away doing physical exams.

I'd like to see a link about that. Seems rather unlikely, considering the cost of those units. Most schools don't even give med students stethoscopes nowadays.
 
i dont' have link; professor there told me; will let you know when i find more info
 
I'm not trying to be rude, but...seriously? Most nurses can do that easily without using US (assuming the patient has veins and isn't dehydrated).


I disagree with this statement. There are plenty of patients who are not easy to get PIV in. I'm working at a hospital that has an IV service, specifically for the difficult sticks. It seems that, increasingly, the IV service has trouble too. Frequently they will only try a few times and then refuse to try any more, saying the patient needs a central line. We have a team of nurses for PICC placement (they use US for PICC), but it often takes a couple days for them to get around to the pt. I currently work a moonlighting type job for the dept of surgery, having bailed out of surgery after 3 years and trying to figure out what's next. Guess who they call for the line? Usually at about 2am. They often aren't easy central lines, either.

I'm intrigued by the use of US for PIV- this is the first i've heard of it. Is there a course to learn this?
 
I disagree with this statement. There are plenty of [hospital] patients who are not easy to get PIV in.

That's rarely of concern to those of us in the ambulatory primary care setting, however, which is really what this thread is focusing on.

It's a lot easier to justify the cost of a portable US machine in the hospital setting (many EDs have these already) than it is in the typical family medicine office.
 
That's rarely of concern to those of us in the ambulatory primary care setting, however, which is really what this thread is focusing on.

It's a lot easier to justify the cost of a portable US machine in the hospital setting (many EDs have these already) than it is in the typical family medicine office.

Many nurses in the outpatient setting don't get the volume of IV's compared to when they once did when they worked in the hospitals. And when you have that patient who shows up with vague complaints, dry, and glucose in the 3-400, sometimes they can be a very hard stick. It happens to me more often than I like, & my patients hate getting the poor nurse's 3 failed attempts. I think an US guided PIV is still cheaper than a referral to the ED for the patient for a central line (which, btw, are performed by FM residents using US guidance once pts get there). My patients hate going to the ED, & I do everything I can to keep the out of there. It's nice to throw in a line get them tanked up & better to avoid that trip.
 
We don't start IVs in the office, so it's a non-issue.

If a patient in DKA ends up in my office, they're in the wrong place. A liter of NS wouldn't keep me from sending them to the ED. It would only delay them getting there.
 
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