Ogme

[MedPR]

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I've read through quite a few threads regarding the differences between ACGME programs and OGME programs and I know where you match and what specialty you end up in is very dependent on your performance and not what school, or type of school you attend.

I don't want this to turn into another MD vs DO thread, I just want to get a better idea of how current or future DO students feel about the limited number of OGME programs. From reading SDN and some non-SDN research, I know that the major difference is that there are way less AOA/OGME programs compared to ACGME programs, and as a result the locations of any given AOA/OGME program may not be as desirable as an ACGME.

The reason I'm asking is because my stats are decent for DO (3.22/33Q), while very low for MD (3.0/33Q) and I'm looking for some additional information that I have not yet come across that may help me decide whether or not I should even both applying MD this cycle. The letters on my coat will mean nothing to me so long as they are either DO or MD. In other words, the only reason I am considering applying MD is because it seems like there are less matching/specializing options for DOs.

 

[dntke1518]

There are a few threads on this floating around in both pre-osteo and osteopathic med student. In a nutshell ogme can limit to less desirable locations, lack of fellowships (for some specialties, others have plenty), and some programs that won't get you as much exposure. I'm not an expert but that is what I have gathered, look around at some of the other threads.

 

[MedPR]

There are a few threads on this floating around in both pre-osteo and osteopathic med student. In a nutshell ogme can limit to less desirable locations, lack of fellowships (for some specialties, others have plenty), and some programs that won't get you as much exposure. I'm not an expert but that is what I have gathered, look around at some of the other threads.

Thanks. How do you feel about the difference in availability for OGME compared to ACGME?

 

[donkeykong1]

The only AOA residencies that pose a problem in being vastly few in number and not as widespread location wise is anesthesiology, derm, PMR, psych, neuro, opthalmology, and some of the highly specialized surgical specialties like ENT, Urology. Otherwise if you want to EM, FM, IM ,Peds, Rads, ortho, gen surg you're in pretty good shape by going AOA.

FYI
ACGME Anesthesiology, PMR have a higher percentage of DOs matching than MDs
ACGME Psych or Neuro is not difficult to match as a DO
ACGME Optha, ENT, Uro, Derm require extreme talents and luck to match MD or DO. Having the AOA match increases your odds of matching.

 

[MedPR]

The only AOA residencies that pose a problem in being vastly few in number and not as widespread location wise is anesthesiology, derm, PMR, psych, neuro, opthalmology, and some of the highly specialized surgical specialties like ENT, Urology. Otherwise if you want to EM, FM, IM ,Peds, Rads, ortho, gen surg you're in pretty good shape by going AOA.

FYI
ACGME Anesthesiology, PMR have a higher percentage of DOs matching than MDs
ACGME Psych or Neuro is not difficult to match as a DO
ACGME Optha, ENT, Uro, Derm require extreme talents and luck to match MD or DO. Having the AOA match increases your odds of matching.

That's a perspective I hadn't thought of or read about thus far. So DO students can try to match in ACGME and OGME in the same year? Obviously they can only attend one, but they can apply to both systems?

You say there is a higher percentage of DOs than MDs matching to ACGME Anesthesiology and PM&R. Do you mean a higher percentage of the DO students who want to match do compared to MDs? Or are you saying that DOs make up a larger percentage of the total match than MDs? I think you mean the latter (since that is unexpected), but I want to be sure.

 

[donkeykong1]

That's a perspective I hadn't thought of or read about thus far. So DO students can try to match in ACGME and OGME in the same year? Obviously they can only attend one, but they can apply to both systems?

You say there is a higher percentage of DOs than MDs matching to ACGME Anesthesiology and PM&R. Do you mean a higher percentage of the DO students who want to match do compared to MDs? Or are you saying that DOs make up a larger percentage of the total match than MDs? I think you mean the latter (since that is unexpected), but I want to be sure.

Yes, DO students can first register in the AOA match. If they match successfully they are pulled from the ACGME match which occurs later. some students shoot for the stars in the AOA and use ACGME as a back for less competitive specialties.

As far as your latter question, its the percentage of total grads matching successfully in a particular ACGME residency. Some notable stats include:

Rads MD (0.7%) DO (0.7%)

Gas MD (4.3%) DO (4.6%)

EM MD (8.1%) DO (11.3%)

Ortho MD (4.0%) DO (0.1%)/2 students


http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

 

[MedPR]

Yes, DO students can first register in the AOA match. If they match successfully they are pulled from the ACGME match which occurs later. some students shoot for the stars in the AOA and use ACGME as a back for less competitive specialties.

As far as your latter question, its the percentage of total grads matching successfully in a particular ACGME residency. Some notable stats include:

Rads MD (0.7%) DO (0.7%)

Gas MD (4.3%) DO (4.6%)

EM MD (8.1%) DO (11.3%)

Ortho MD (4.0%) DO (0.1%)/2 students


http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

So if you match to an AOA you are not allowed to decline or defer to see if your ACGME match results?\

Oh I see, so it's not necessarily that there are more DOs than MDs in any particular program, it's just saying that a higher percentage of DO applicants match; possibly because there are a lower number of DO applicants.

 

[donkeykong1]

So if you match to an AOA you are not allowed to decline or defer to see if your ACGME match results?\

Oh I see, so it's not necessarily that there are more DOs than MDs in any particular program, it's just saying that a higher percentage of DO applicants match; possibly because there are a lower number of DO applicants.

nope, you're automatically pulled from the acgme if you match aoa.

the percentage is of US MD/DO grads in general applying ACGME. not just applicants to a particular specialty. so no, your reasoning isnt a true factor.

 

[MedPR]

hope, you're automatically pulled from the acgme if you match aoa.

the percentage is of US MD/DO grads in general not just applicants to that particular specialty. so no, your reasoning isnt a true factor.

Why hope that you are automatically pulled from acgme? What if the acgme is better (for whatever reason) and you could potentially match to it?

Ok, I think I know what you're saying about the match stats now. It's the percentage of ALL grads. Taking EM as an example, the data can be interpreted to mean that, assuming an equal number of applicants to EM, you have a better shot at matching ACGME EM as a DO than an MD.

Also, those DO students that match to an ACGME program must have not matched at all in AOA?

Edit: I guess I don't understand how you can be qualified to match ACGME, but not also qualified to match AOA.

 

[donkeykong1]

Why hope that you are automatically pulled from acgme? What if the acgme is better (for whatever reason) and you could potentially match to it?

Ok, I think I know what you're saying about the match stats now. It's the percentage of ALL grads. Taking EM as an example, the data can be interpreted to mean that, assuming an equal number of applicants to EM, you have a better shot at matching ACGME EM as a DO than an MD.

Also, those DO students that match to an ACGME program must have not matched at all in AOA?

1) lol see my edit. i meant nope not hope..

2)yes.

3) yes.

also keep in mind there are dual AOA/ACGME spots where you can apply via either pathway and be board certified by both the osteo and allo boards. these options exist in IM, FM, EM, Surg in some locations.

 

[MedPR]

1) lol see my edit. i meant nope not hope..

2)yes.

3) yes.

also keep in mind there are dual AOA/ACGME spots where you can apply via either pathway and be board certified by both the osteo and allo boards. these options exist in IM, FM, EM, Surg in some locations.

Oh, haha ok "nope" makes more sense 😛

That system sucks.. it sounds like you almost have to sabotage your AOA application (COMLEX, etc) in order to get a chance at ACGME.

 

[donkeykong1]

Oh, haha ok "nope" makes more sense 😛

That system sucks.. it sounds like you almost have to sabotage your AOA application (COMLEX, etc) in order to get a chance at ACGME.

think about it this way. to get a good chance at ACGME programs as a DO, you're gonna have to take the usmle and comlex. if you do great on the usmle and poor on the comlex. then skip the aoa and apply only acgme. if u do great on the comlex but poor on the usmle apply just aoa, and you won't have to disclose your usmle score. if u do great on both---then you're golden! you have many options.

keep in mind that some acgme programs accepts the comlex as well.

 

[MedPR]

think about it this way. to get a good chance at ACGME programs as a DO, you're gonna have to take the usmle and comlex. if you do great on the usmle and poor on the comlex. then skip the aoa and apply only acgme. if u do great on the comlex but poor on the usmle apply just aoa, and you won't have to disclose your usmle score. if u do great on both---then you're golden! you have many options.

keep in mind that some acgme programs accepts the comlex as well.

I misunderstood your original post about AOA/ACGME. I thought you meant that DO students were required to apply AOA and, if they wanted to, could also apply ACGME. So you were saying that most students apply to top AOA programs and use middle or lower tier ACGME programs as backups (assuming they are interested in those programs).

So the only advantage that DO students have as far as matching is that they essentially have two chances to take Step 1 since they can take COMLEX and USMLE whereas MD students can only take USMLE. When it comes to matching, though, their "backup" ACGME programs are the same "backup" ACGMEs that MD students could apply to. In other words, the DO "advantage" would be much greater if they could use AOA programs as backups.

I've quite a few posts on SDN that basically say that a DO student needs higher USMLE step scores than an MD student (all else equal) to match ACGME. Are there any statistics or publications to back that up? Is that just more SDN BS (like how you need a 3.7, 35 to get into MD school in the first place)?

 

[donkeykong1]

I misunderstood your original post about AOA/ACGME. I thought you meant that DO students were required to apply AOA and, if they wanted to, could also apply ACGME. So you were saying that most students apply to top AOA programs and use middle or lower tier ACGME programs as backups (assuming they are interested in those programs).

So the only advantage that DO students have as far as matching is that they essentially have two chances to take Step 1 since they can take COMLEX and USMLE whereas MD students can only take USMLE. When it comes to matching, though, their "backup" ACGME programs are the same "backup" ACGMEs that MD students could apply to. In other words, the DO "advantage" would be much greater if they could use AOA programs as backups.

I've quite a few posts on SDN that basically say that a DO student needs higher USMLE step scores than an MD student (all else equal) to match ACGME. Are there any statistics or publications to back that up? Is that just more SDN BS (like how you need a 3.7, 35 to get into MD school in the first place)?

1) not sure how common that strategy is. but it is something students follow.

2) That sounds rational. but, when it comes to matching most students are more concerned with the location of the program not that its aoa/acgme or prestige. though the latter is important.

3) the usmle score needed for a particular specialty is basically the same for US MD/DO. though there is some bias at top tier programs which expect higher scores from low tier MDs as well as DOs.

 

[MedPR]

1) not sure how common that strategy is. but it is something students follow.

2) That sounds rational. but, when it comes to matching most students are more concerned with the location of the program not that its aoa/acgme or prestige. though the latter is important.

3) the usmle score needed for a particular specialty is basically the same for US MD/DO. though there is some bias at top tier programs which expect higher scores from low tier MDs as well as DOs.

2. Yea, that's what I am mainly concerned about as well. I guess what it comes down to is scoring well on both complex and usmle so you have more options available. In the end then, going DO doesn't really hurt you at all assuming you prepare and score well on usmle.

 

[jinobi]

As far as your latter question, its the percentage of total grads matching successfully in a particular ACGME residency. Some notable stats include:

Rads MD (0.7%) DO (0.7%)

Gas MD (4.3%) DO (4.6%)

EM MD (8.1%) DO (11.3%)

Ortho MD (4.0%) DO (0.1%)/2 students


http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

You're interpreting the data incorrectly. It only shows out of all the DO's who matched in an MD program, what percentage matched in each specialty. It has no data about what percentage of all the DO's that applied for each specialty actually matched into that specialty, which would be more helpful.

 

[donkeykong1]

You're interpreting the data incorrectly. It only shows out of all the DO's who matched in an MD program, what percentage matched in each specialty. It has no data about what percentage of all the DO's that applied for each specialty actually matched into that specialty, which would be more helpful.

you're right. thats what i meant to say before. but was too lazy

 

[dntke1518]

Thanks. How do you feel about the difference in availability for OGME compared to ACGME?

How do I feel? I think DOs are given a great opportunity to be able to participate in two matches... Overall the AOA programs are not bad by any means, the thing is that there are some areas that are really lacking in both location and number of programs. There are more ACGME programs that will give their residents more exposure than some of the AOA programs, either way, I'm not going to worry about it until I get to MS4...