Old Reckless Driving / DUI and Competitive Residency?

[HondoCrouch]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

A 10 year old MIP would in no way prevent you from being licensed in any state and you could answer the ERAS question with a legitimate "no" every time.

Crimes/infractions that would prevent you from being licensed are crimes of moral turpitude and an MIP does not fall into that category. In most places an MIP is the same class of infraction as a speeding ticket, are you so daft that you are going to answer "yes" to that question if you have speeding tickets?

The Baylor dude lost his spot because he purposefully lied to Baylor, it had nothing to do with his MIP/DUI whatever it was. In fact he got his Texas license without problem.

 

[JackADeli]

I am guessing, you sitting around decided justice demanded you assert your definitive opinion into this thread. As to why, I couldn't guess. Bumping a thread to life with definitve/authoritative claims suggests you may want to join SDN in February 2011 to enjoy prolonged circular arguments.

A 10 year old MIP would in no way prevent you from being licensed in any state and you could answer the ERAS question with a legitimate "no" every time...

That is a fairly definitive claim that is not really substantiated by you with anything. None of us know your background, who you are, or any information about your experience as a member of ALL medical licensing boards in ALL 50 STATES. This question has been extensively discussed here and elsewhere. I encourage readers to go back and read through the thread.

...Crimes/infractions that would prevent you from being licensed are crimes of moral turpitude and an MIP does not fall into that category. In most places an MIP is the same class of infraction as a speeding ticket, are you so daft that you are going to answer "yes" to that question if you have speeding tickets?...

Medical licensing boards are different entities then civil or criminal courts. Again, none of us know your background, who you are, or any information about your experience as a member of ALL medical licensing boards in ALL 50 STATES.

The issue/s do come down to exactly what the ERAS question is verbatim. A DUI in the past can prevent a new license applicant from getting their license in time to start their training program on July 1st. An applicant, who's background check/info demonstrates crack, heroine, meth or marijuana possession, may very well have a delay/problem licensing. I have seen residents not able to start in their program until September. The program may have at that point numerous unmatched applicants... sometimes already possessing a state license. I would defer in general to what AProgDir said and encourage folks to read through the entire thread and think long and hard about knowingly failing to disclose past deeds.

The ERAS application for residency only asks for felonies, and possible licensing problems. This is clearly not the first (I hope). Whether it fits into the second category is unclear, as each state is different. Some will not care at all, others might.

You can assume that all programs will to background checks after you match. Since it's impossible to know how a program will react to your past, I think it's better to disclose up front. Most will not care at all -- it's in the distant past, and there doesn't seem to be a pattern of problems...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Agreeing with JAD on this last post of his.

Medical Boards are not courts of law and as such, they may define MIP or any other "trangressions" in whatever fashion they so desire. In most cases it would be what the local medical community deems is reason to deny a license. Thus, it does not matter whether or not "legally" the MIP is a crime of moral turpitude or not; what matters is what the medical board deems as a requirement of licensing.

Furthermore, hospital credentialing may take it a step further. They may require BC or no malpractice suit settlements or losses (I have seen both). My by-laws at one hospital system (Scottsdale Healthcare) states that I am to be "appropriately dressed when in the hospital"; this means that they have decided that staff physicians are not to wear jeans, sweat suits, logo t-shirts, ball caps, "excessive" jewelry or make-up, tattoos must be covered, etc. An extreme example perhaps but as JAD notes, to state that MIP in no way prevents you from being licensed or working in all 50 states is ridiculous because medical boards and hospital/employers can define things as they see fit.

 

[HondoCrouch]

I am guessing, you sitting around decided justice demanded you assert your definitive opinion into this thread. As to why, I couldn't guess. Bumping a thread to life with definitve/authoritative claims suggests you may want to join SDN in February 2011 to enjoy prolonged circular arguments.That is a fairly definitive claim that is not really substantiated by you with anything. None of us know your background, who you are, or any information about your experience as a member of ALL medical licensing boards in ALL 50 STATES. This question has been extensively discussed here and elsewhere. I encourage readers to go back and read through the thread.

Medical licensing boards are different entities then civil or criminal courts. Again, none of us know your background, who you are, or any information about your experience as a member of ALL medical licensing boards in ALL 50 STATES.

The issue/s do come down to exactly what the ERAS question is verbatim. A DUI in the past can prevent a new license applicant from getting their license in time to start their training program on July 1st. An applicant, who's background check/info demonstrates crack, heroine, meth or marijuana possession, may very well have a delay/problem licensing. I have seen residents not able to start in their program until September. The program may have at that point numerous unmatched applicants... sometimes already possessing a state license. I would defer in general to what AProgDir said and encourage folks to read through the entire thread and think long and hard about knowingly failing to disclose past deeds.

It's a fairly definitive claim based on common sense and a fair knowledge of the law and occupational codes which govern medical boards.

For starters I stated that an MIP would in no way prevent you from obtaining a license. For some inexplicable reason you chose to conflate MIP with drug possession and DUI which are an entirely different category of infraction, you might as well compare it to murder while you are at it.

You absurd argument that anything that would require you to submit additional information to a medical board for licensure warrants a "yes" to the ERAS question is just that, absurd.

And you are entirely wrong that medical boards are somehow special entities outside of the courts. All medical boards operate under the jurisdication of adminstrative courts with the boards powers and procedures clearly outlined by the occupational codes that created them. If you ever contest a board action you will indeed be in an adminstrative court arguing your case against the boards and the medical boards are bound to the procedures and rulings of the adminstrative court. Medical boards are not "outside the courts". All legal defintions and procedures still apply.

 

[JackADeli]

Again, it is great to see your new arrival on SDN and submission of great and definitive knowledge....

It's a fairly definitive claim based on common sense and a fair knowledge of the law and occupational codes which govern medical boards...

Sure... If you say so. I am glad to see your need to ressurect this thread with such assured authority.

...For starters I stated that an MIP would in no way prevent you from obtaining a license. For some inexplicable reason you chose to conflate MIP with drug possession and DUI which are an entirely different category of infraction, you might as well compare it to murder while you are at it...

Excellent hyperbole and directional reading....

...You absurd argument that anything that would require you to submit additional information to a medical board for licensure warrants a "yes" to the ERAS question is just that, absurd...

Never made any such argument. I am not sure anyone has made an argument that submitting additional paperwork is the issue. The issue is will your license app make it through the med board in time for you to start training. That is, is there anything that will prevent a timely issue of your license or prevent issue of license all together. I have known of several states that have withheld issuance of license in excess of several months into the residency academic year, i.e. well after July 1st.

...And you are entirely wrong that medical boards are somehow special entities outside of the courts. All medical boards operate under the jurisdication of adminstrative courts with the boards powers and procedures clearly outlined by the occupational codes that created them. If you ever contest a board action you will indeed be in an adminstrative court arguing your case against the boards and the medical boards are bound to the procedures and rulings of the adminstrative court. Medical boards are not "outside the courts". All legal defintions and procedures still apply.

Ok, sure, I am entirely wrong... but, I think WS has replied in a fashion I would agree with...

Agreeing with JAD on this last post of his.

Medical Boards are not courts of law and as such, they may define MIP or any other "trangressions" in whatever fashion they so desire. In most cases it would be what the local medical community deems is reason to deny a license. Thus, it does not matter whether or not "legally" the MIP is a crime of moral turpitude or not; what matters is what the medical board deems as a requirement of licensing.

Furthermore, hospital credentialing may take it a step further. They may require BC or no malpractice suit settlements or losses (I have seen both). My by-laws at one hospital system (Scottsdale Healthcare) states that I am to be "appropriately dressed when in the hospital"; this means that they have decided that staff physicians are not to wear jeans, sweat suits, logo t-shirts, ball caps, "excessive" jewelry or make-up, tattoos must be covered, etc. An extreme example perhaps but as JAD notes, to state that MIP in no way prevents you from being licensed or working in all 50 states is ridiculous because medical boards and hospital/employers can define things as they see fit.

And of course, a sample from just one licensing board:

...Do I have to get fingerprinted?
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Yes. In California, the process is completed using Live Scan, which is an electronic fingerprinting process. Your prints will be sent to both the California Department of Justice (DOJ) and the FBI to search for any criminal history. Out-of-state applicants can submit the traditional paper fingerprint cards or come to California to use Live Scan.....

...Must I disclose all criminal convictions, even minor offenses in college?
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]You must disclose all convictions as well as all cases in which you pled guilty or .[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]nolo contendere..[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial], even if they have been expunged pursuant to Section 1203.4 of the Penal Code. This includes all citations, infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Applicants should be aware that the Board receives information regarding actions that have been dismissed or expunged, and the application forms advise applicants to disclose all prior convictions including those that have been dismissed or expunged. In addition, the Board will be notified of all future criminal actions through subsequent rap sheets by the DOJ and/or the FBI. .
[FONT=Arial,Arial]If you are uncertain about how to answer any question on the application, you should consult legal counsel. It may be wiser to disclose too much information than to be caught in a misunderstanding......

The question, if you failed to read... as it seems some have failed to look at the thread discussion before reviving this thread, is:

Must I disclose ALL criminal convictions?"....

the answer for just this one state (=YES):

...[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]You must disclose ALL convictions as well as ALL CASES in which you pled guilty or

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]nolo contendere..[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial], even if they have been expunged pursuant to Section 1203.4 of the Penal Code. This includes ALL citations, infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies......

.My understanding of the law is that MIP or PAULA is in fact a criminal offense, though misdemeanor. Again, individuals can choose to hide their past. IMHO, choosing to hide your past begs the question, "why?". The answer is usually something along the lines of shame and/or fear it will prevent you from obtaining what you want. This then raises the questions of honesty and integrity. If you are willing to lie and deceive on something so minor, that would very likely not hurt you, what else will you lie about? Surely, your bar for lying set so low, you would lie to save you skin in bad outcomes, for financial gain, etc.....

But, again, an applicant can lie and hide it and then see what happens. Might get away or might be caught on background check. Is it worth it? Is possibly not getting one interview out of 20 worth the risk of then being ejected from a residency you are deemed to have entered under false pretense worth it? Maybe getting you license suspended because of the "little lie" is worth it? Those are real risks. I have seen physicians get into a nasty divorce. Their SO then reports to the med-board a withheld MIP. The physician gets reprimanded on permanent record at best, some have had temporary suspensions. Was the skeleton in their closet worth it?

I say disclose up front.

 

[hieronymous]

I have a related question. A few years before med school, I fell asleep while driving and hit a guardrail. No one was hurt, no alcohol or drugs involved. I got a ticket for careless driving and paid a fine. I never really thought about it again, but recently looked back and this is apparently a class 2 misdemeanor, which I now understand to be relatively serious. I don't know if it counts as a "minor traffic offense", so I'll go ahead and disclose this on my licensing application, but the issue is that the forms want court documents and things like that, but I never went to court. I'm having a hell of a time even getting a copy of the accident report. On top of that, the board wants everything sent directly to them, but the records people refuse to send the documents to anyone other than me. Should I just try to explain this on the forms and hope for the best? They may want me to try harder to get the records, but since I was upfront and at least made a good-faith effort to do so, I shouldn't be penalized, right?

 

[JackADeli]

I have a related question. A few years before med school...I got a ...class 2 misdemeanor ...the board wants everything ...but since I was upfront and at least made a good-faith effort to do so, I shouldn't be penalized, right?

I appreciate your feelings. But, this forum is absolutelys useless waste of time for this matter. It may make you feel better to have others express solidarity of feeling and all. In the end, that is still useless. What we may feel or believe is irrelavent. We are not going to be reviewing your application or making a decision to issue you a license. We are not going to decide if you should be penalized. The answer before, now, and future is to contact the board directly, explain your situation, ask them for guidance. This is between you and your state licensing board.

Best of luck. Feel free to let the forum know your outcome.