I read on here that OMS make less than ortho and endo??? I thought they make the most. I guess I had that in my mind due to the fact that I know an OMS and I filed his taxes and his net income last year was 955K in Utah. Just wondering.....
OMS salaries?
- Thread starter predentchick
- Start date
hmm kinda unrelated, but are you a tax accountant specializing in dental practices? If I earned 1mil net annually I would want a team of experienced professionals working over my tax return.
My impression is that most specialists regardless of discipline earn in the 200-300k range, and you need to be a "superstar" to net a million. Then again it's possible to be a GP and earn that kind of money... single case anecdotes are pretty much useless unless you inherit that guy's practice along with his management skills.
My impression is that most specialists regardless of discipline earn in the 200-300k range, and you need to be a "superstar" to net a million. Then again it's possible to be a GP and earn that kind of money... single case anecdotes are pretty much useless unless you inherit that guy's practice along with his management skills.
No, I did not personally do his taxes. My boss did. (of a large tax firm) I did a lot of leg work and had to put his binder together, hence the knowledge of his income.
to predentchick:
I have overheard from some upperclassmen that they know of a volunteer professor here who made net income last year in the same ballpark as that which you have mentioned.
Besides the bread and butter OMS work, I was told that he also did some cosmetic procedures (i.e. face-lifts).
I think that while these figures are definitely representative of very successful practices, they are by no means anecdotal.
I have overheard from some upperclassmen that they know of a volunteer professor here who made net income last year in the same ballpark as that which you have mentioned.
Besides the bread and butter OMS work, I was told that he also did some cosmetic procedures (i.e. face-lifts).
I think that while these figures are definitely representative of very successful practices, they are by no means anecdotal.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 737
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,531
You mean they are VERY anecdotal, right? 🙂
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Location
- Enjoying 16 hour workdays.
- Website
- dental.columbia.edu
It's funny you guys are talking about oms salaries...... One day while working out, I suddenly had an epiphony.....perhaps not that much spectacular......but at least some kind of light bulb turned on in my mind.......
**keep in mind tho.....this is only a rough estimate, and i am trying to stay on the low end of everything**
Let's assume that a typical OMS in the private practice would extract 10 teeth a day. At $300 a pop, that means the daily gross income would be $3000.
$3000 (gross)
-$1000 (overhead)
-$1000 (taxes....assume you managed to find loopholes to be categorized in the 33% bracket)
-------------
+$1000 (net profit)
$1000 (profit)
X 20 (working days a month)
----------
$20,000
x 11 (assume you take a month off a year for vacation)
-----------
$220,000.......... money in your pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
**keep in mind tho.....this is only a rough estimate, and i am trying to stay on the low end of everything**
Let's assume that a typical OMS in the private practice would extract 10 teeth a day. At $300 a pop, that means the daily gross income would be $3000.
$3000 (gross)
-$1000 (overhead)
-$1000 (taxes....assume you managed to find loopholes to be categorized in the 33% bracket)
-------------
+$1000 (net profit)
$1000 (profit)
X 20 (working days a month)
----------
$20,000
x 11 (assume you take a month off a year for vacation)
-----------
$220,000.......... money in your pocket!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Messages
- 259
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
that's a nice estimate, but probably not too applicable to OMS imo since they do alot of other procedures than teeth extraction.
your formula would perhaps be more applicable to endodontics, where the procedures performed is mainly limited to root canals.
an analogy would be the radiologist who taught us who told us that she got $30 for a mamogram (the med students were all excited over this), and that she reads thousands of them over a year (whether it's 1, 2 or 3 thousand she didnt say). Obviously she does other stuff (like teaching us) because by just reading mamogram she wouldn't be making a 6 figure salary (unless she reads them day and night).
same for the OMS...they probably do more profitable procedures, like implants, than just extractions.
pls correct me if i'm wrong. 🙂
your formula would perhaps be more applicable to endodontics, where the procedures performed is mainly limited to root canals.
an analogy would be the radiologist who taught us who told us that she got $30 for a mamogram (the med students were all excited over this), and that she reads thousands of them over a year (whether it's 1, 2 or 3 thousand she didnt say). Obviously she does other stuff (like teaching us) because by just reading mamogram she wouldn't be making a 6 figure salary (unless she reads them day and night).
same for the OMS...they probably do more profitable procedures, like implants, than just extractions.
pls correct me if i'm wrong. 🙂
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2003
- Messages
- 457
- Reaction score
- 23
- Points
- 4,601
- Dentist
You are calculating tax at 50%, not 33%.
I'm both an accountant and a stockbroker. I've helped million dollar clients, Fortune 500 companies, and every day Joes. Finances are NEVER as easy as what the above poster spat off. While the theory of what goes on (Rev - Costs = Net Income) is simple to understand, the details of the finances are extremely complex. They don't issue 4-year degrees, and CPA licenses for nothing. Major corporations don't employ armies of "finance guys" because the work they'll have to do is easy.
I realize the above poster is just trying to get a general ball park figure, but the Reveneues, Costs, Volume, Net Income aren't so nice and neat. No doubt that GDs and Specialists will make good money, but it will be different for every individual. I bet most of us will be a little surprised when we actually see the numbers in the ledger. Just a thought.
I realize the above poster is just trying to get a general ball park figure, but the Reveneues, Costs, Volume, Net Income aren't so nice and neat. No doubt that GDs and Specialists will make good money, but it will be different for every individual. I bet most of us will be a little surprised when we actually see the numbers in the ledger. Just a thought.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Location
- Enjoying 16 hour workdays.
- Website
- dental.columbia.edu
yeah......I just wanted to keep everything simple so the math would be easy caculate and comprehend.
Most extractions would definitely be over $300 especially if you are in a more populous city and especially if the extraction involves surgical techniques. Also, there are a lot more lucrative procedures such as implant placements, bone grafting, cyst enucleation, surgically assisted rapid palatal expansion, etc...........
Then you gotta figure in the payroll, overhead, mortgage, tax breaks, number of dependants, altruistic donations, etc......
.....but that's just gonna complicate the original assumption of the bread-n-butter wisdom teeth extraction.
I've never liked econ/finance classes...................😀
Most extractions would definitely be over $300 especially if you are in a more populous city and especially if the extraction involves surgical techniques. Also, there are a lot more lucrative procedures such as implant placements, bone grafting, cyst enucleation, surgically assisted rapid palatal expansion, etc...........
Then you gotta figure in the payroll, overhead, mortgage, tax breaks, number of dependants, altruistic donations, etc......
.....but that's just gonna complicate the original assumption of the bread-n-butter wisdom teeth extraction.
I've never liked econ/finance classes...................😀
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2003
- Messages
- 737
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,531
And there's no way OMS only has overhead of 33% percent!!! I would bet the average is closer to 60-70%. 🙂
Which is exactly why their take-home pay IS much less than endo.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2003
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 52
TITLE: Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeon
TAGLINE: Private, Full Scope Oral And Maxillofacial Facial Implant Practice. $1,000,000 + potential
LOCATION: Visalia, California
CLIENT: Sol Road Partners
POSTED: 11/5/2003
REPLY SENT: NO
DESCRIPTION:
Private, Full Scope Oral And Maxillofacial Facial Implant Practice. We are recruiting due to a doctor retiring, looking for associate/partner. Retiring doctor willing to share call. The support staff services of the facility include six well trained, certified employees and willing to stay with practice.
Relevant Equipment
-State of the art equipment, digitized office
Patient Visit and Surgical Treatment Volumes
-High Volume office Flow. Only practice within 40 miles. Hospital adjacent to practice.
Position Responsibilities
-Seeking fully trained, board or eligible certified oral maxillofacial facial surgeon. Capable of stepping into full scoped practice. Duties include: facial trauma, orgnathnic facial surgery, dental implants, pathology reconstructive surgery and dental alveolar surgery.
Compensation
-$1,000,000 + potential
I'm posting this just to encourage you all to work hard and acheive your dreams.
Nothing is impossible!!!
TAGLINE: Private, Full Scope Oral And Maxillofacial Facial Implant Practice. $1,000,000 + potential
LOCATION: Visalia, California
CLIENT: Sol Road Partners
POSTED: 11/5/2003
REPLY SENT: NO
DESCRIPTION:
Private, Full Scope Oral And Maxillofacial Facial Implant Practice. We are recruiting due to a doctor retiring, looking for associate/partner. Retiring doctor willing to share call. The support staff services of the facility include six well trained, certified employees and willing to stay with practice.
Relevant Equipment
-State of the art equipment, digitized office
Patient Visit and Surgical Treatment Volumes
-High Volume office Flow. Only practice within 40 miles. Hospital adjacent to practice.
Position Responsibilities
-Seeking fully trained, board or eligible certified oral maxillofacial facial surgeon. Capable of stepping into full scoped practice. Duties include: facial trauma, orgnathnic facial surgery, dental implants, pathology reconstructive surgery and dental alveolar surgery.
Compensation
-$1,000,000 + potential
I'm posting this just to encourage you all to work hard and acheive your dreams.
Nothing is impossible!!!
- Joined
- May 23, 2002
- Messages
- 457
- Reaction score
- 100
- Points
- 4,721
anecdotal, epiphony, altruistic..........uh, you guys are smart and stuff.
Just out of curiosity, how accurate are these "practice for sale" ads that you see so often? I'm guessing that there is alot of information missing between the lines. Aren't they ads written up by brokers looking to over exaggerate anything they find?
They often quote such phenomenal numbers that I can't help but take them with a grain of salt. I don't know, I might be wrong. (Which would be nice...😀 ) Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
They often quote such phenomenal numbers that I can't help but take them with a grain of salt. I don't know, I might be wrong. (Which would be nice...😀 ) Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2003
- Messages
- 281
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
The best information on the topic of OMS, Endo, Ortho, Perio salaries is to be gained from the ADA survey center. "Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry" surveys are done by the ADA for general dentistry every year. In the year 1998 and 1999, the ADA released a special set of statistics done on each of the specialties separately. Salaries were broken down for each individual specialty a hundred different ways...for group practices,solo practices, incorporated ones, sole proprietorships, broken down by national region, by years since graduation, by hours per year or per week, full time, part time, etc...
I've read the OMS, ENDO, and PERIO one through my health science library...anyone can get them from other dental schools even if you don't have them at your own school via interlibrary loan...
At least in the 1998 publications, OMS made more money overall than Endo, Perio, or Ortho, contrary to what Gavin says. And it CAN'T be argued that its because OMS work more hours, because in the surveys it was broken down by the hour, not year...
I must add that endo was only about 7,000 per year less than OMS, and one could argue that a different survey sample may have yielded different results...and there will always be individual practices that break the standard...but still, in the only scientifically valid survey done, OMS made more than Endo overall...
I've read the OMS, ENDO, and PERIO one through my health science library...anyone can get them from other dental schools even if you don't have them at your own school via interlibrary loan...
At least in the 1998 publications, OMS made more money overall than Endo, Perio, or Ortho, contrary to what Gavin says. And it CAN'T be argued that its because OMS work more hours, because in the surveys it was broken down by the hour, not year...
I must add that endo was only about 7,000 per year less than OMS, and one could argue that a different survey sample may have yielded different results...and there will always be individual practices that break the standard...but still, in the only scientifically valid survey done, OMS made more than Endo overall...
Long live the oral surgeon! (and his money too 😀 )
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2003
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 41
- Location
- somewhere near, yet far away
There are a FEW omf here in CA that make alot of money (more than 200K). My sister has a friend who was offered $150K starting at Kaiser Perm. He had graduated from UCLA omf.
Passing the licensing board for OMF is especially difficult and tricky in that you have to find patients that match with the "ideal" symptoms for you to treat at the exams. Some may finish OMF training, but never be licensed by the board of omf practitioners.
BUT, I have another sister who's friend is an omf, and he drives a Rolls Royce Bentley. So, what does it all mean? Beats me, but I think that if you do OMF, you really need to be lucky to make alot of $$$ because you're competing against MDs who are in ENT, General & Plastic surgery, and the like. These guys have the hospital privileges and the hospitals who are more willing to hire and back them up with big bucks.
Don't discount general practice!!! If you practice in the right neighborhood, you can make more than any specialist can ever make in his/her life time. I know of one gp dentist in SJ that falls into this catagory.
But the fact of the matter is, because there is such a saturation of physicians and dentists now, that graduating and finding a job after dental school should be everyone's primary concern. Not making profane amounts of money, which in my opinion is wishful thinking and will take decades of hard work and dedication in the field of practicing dentistry. (gets off soap box, lol).
😀
Passing the licensing board for OMF is especially difficult and tricky in that you have to find patients that match with the "ideal" symptoms for you to treat at the exams. Some may finish OMF training, but never be licensed by the board of omf practitioners.
BUT, I have another sister who's friend is an omf, and he drives a Rolls Royce Bentley. So, what does it all mean? Beats me, but I think that if you do OMF, you really need to be lucky to make alot of $$$ because you're competing against MDs who are in ENT, General & Plastic surgery, and the like. These guys have the hospital privileges and the hospitals who are more willing to hire and back them up with big bucks.
Don't discount general practice!!! If you practice in the right neighborhood, you can make more than any specialist can ever make in his/her life time. I know of one gp dentist in SJ that falls into this catagory.
But the fact of the matter is, because there is such a saturation of physicians and dentists now, that graduating and finding a job after dental school should be everyone's primary concern. Not making profane amounts of money, which in my opinion is wishful thinking and will take decades of hard work and dedication in the field of practicing dentistry. (gets off soap box, lol).
😀
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 8,393
- Reaction score
- 37
- Points
- 4,661
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Attending Physician
- Dentist
ENTs don't do orthognathic surgery.
General surgeons don't typically operate much beyond the abdomen anymore.
OMFS's CERTAINLY operate in hospital settings.
$200,000 a year isn't "big money" for a specialist. The ADA published average salary for dental specialists is well above that figure, and even the published data is beginning to age.
I won't criticize much more without knowing your credentials, but from here it certainly <em>looks</em> like you don't have much idea what you're talking about.
General surgeons don't typically operate much beyond the abdomen anymore.
OMFS's CERTAINLY operate in hospital settings.
$200,000 a year isn't "big money" for a specialist. The ADA published average salary for dental specialists is well above that figure, and even the published data is beginning to age.
It should be apparent I don't buy most of what you just said anyway, but this excerpt alone would jeopardize the credibility of your post even if nothing else did. Dentists are retiring almost twice as fast as schools are turning out graduates...as most anyone even minimally familiar with dentistry as a profession is already aware.
I won't criticize much more without knowing your credentials, but from here it certainly <em>looks</em> like you don't have much idea what you're talking about.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,057
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 4,571
- Location
- Enjoying 16 hour workdays.
- Website
- dental.columbia.edu
yeah.........aphitis is certainly correct in some respects....
The baby boomers of yester-years are retiring very soon. The Gen-X'ers and whatever the post-1976 kids (including me) are called will have problems replacing that workforce! It's quite simple actually.......just look at any demographic studies and you can get actual numbers. There will definitely be a shortage of dentists by the time we will be out and practicing. However, in popular locations (ie: manhattan, california, florida), it would still be very hard to establish practices there.
and that is why I want to specialize...........to find myself a little niche in this capitalistic market! 😀 😀 😀
The baby boomers of yester-years are retiring very soon. The Gen-X'ers and whatever the post-1976 kids (including me) are called will have problems replacing that workforce! It's quite simple actually.......just look at any demographic studies and you can get actual numbers. There will definitely be a shortage of dentists by the time we will be out and practicing. However, in popular locations (ie: manhattan, california, florida), it would still be very hard to establish practices there.
and that is why I want to specialize...........to find myself a little niche in this capitalistic market! 😀 😀 😀
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2003
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 41
- Location
- somewhere near, yet far away
I hope what you guys are saying are right, because I just had a cousin graduate from UCSF dental, and she and her friends are having a hard time finding work. They're doing dental hygiene now to pay off their tuition. I can't imagine having to do that when you're more qualified to doing other things. Happy thanks giving everyone!
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 8,393
- Reaction score
- 37
- Points
- 4,661
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Attending Physician
- Dentist
California suffers perennially from regional saturation. The national picture, however, is much brighter. Good luck to your cousin.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- Queens, NY
- Website
- www.iloveny.com
I was considering practicing in California after I graduate, but two things changed my mind.
1) CA has its own licensing board exams. It is not recognized by almost all other states. So if that's the only board exam I took, I'm stuck there for at least 5 years before another state might allow me licensure without taking another board exam. This limits my mobility and makes it difficult to go elsewhere to find a job.
2) As Bill pointed out, CA is pretty saturated in most of the major urban/suburban areas.
For those reasons, I'm sticking to taking the NERBs, which will give me licensure to practice in 20+ states right away.
1) CA has its own licensing board exams. It is not recognized by almost all other states. So if that's the only board exam I took, I'm stuck there for at least 5 years before another state might allow me licensure without taking another board exam. This limits my mobility and makes it difficult to go elsewhere to find a job.
2) As Bill pointed out, CA is pretty saturated in most of the major urban/suburban areas.
For those reasons, I'm sticking to taking the NERBs, which will give me licensure to practice in 20+ states right away.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2002
- Messages
- 370
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Boston with a New York state of mind
The reason why you see so many dentists with high annual incomes ( 500,000+) is because they manage their money properly. I know of a periodonist who makes 2 mil a year. Now this isn't supposed to make every want to go and become a periodonist because he doesn't make 2 mil from his practice, he makes it off the property he owns (parking lots). This should make you want to invest your money when you start making some.
"For those reasons, I'm sticking to taking the NERBs, which will give me licensure to practice in 20+ states right away."
____________________________
UBTom, What are the NERBS?? 😕
____________________________
UBTom, What are the NERBS?? 😕
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- Queens, NY
- Website
- www.iloveny.com
North East Regional Boards. It's the licensure exam for 15 NorthEast states from Maine to Michigan and as far south as Virginia. There are also a number of other states outside the region that recognizes the NERBs for a total of 21 states.
There are three other regional boards: CRDTS for the Midwest (good in 31 states), WREB for the West Coast (also good in 31 states), and SRTA for the South (accepted by 20 states).
Ten states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands require their own board exams.
This info is current as of this year (it's from the ADA Dental Boards and Licensure Information for the New Graduate handbook), but might change next year.
HTH!
There are three other regional boards: CRDTS for the Midwest (good in 31 states), WREB for the West Coast (also good in 31 states), and SRTA for the South (accepted by 20 states).
Ten states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands require their own board exams.
This info is current as of this year (it's from the ADA Dental Boards and Licensure Information for the New Graduate handbook), but might change next year.
HTH!
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2002
- Messages
- 370
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Boston with a New York state of mind
So there is overlap between states recognizing boards, are they mostly in the middle of the country? Also I believe in NY you dont have to take the NERB so long as you fulfill a one year residency. It doesn't hurt to take it though.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- Queens, NY
- Website
- www.iloveny.com
to Pasha:
Yep, quite a few states recognize more than 1 regional board. Utah for example recognizes all four (!).
I can do a PGY-1 for licensure in NYS rather than take the NERBs yep, but that would only give me license to practice in two states: NY and MN.
What I'm looking for is mobility... If I can't find a good associateship in one state I want to be able to go to another state where there might be a more plentiful selection. For that I think taking one of the regional board exams is a good investment.
I think this is especially crucial in the NYC tri-state area-- You want to be able to look for jobs in northern NJ and southwestern CT too.
HTH!
Yep, quite a few states recognize more than 1 regional board. Utah for example recognizes all four (!).
I can do a PGY-1 for licensure in NYS rather than take the NERBs yep, but that would only give me license to practice in two states: NY and MN.
What I'm looking for is mobility... If I can't find a good associateship in one state I want to be able to go to another state where there might be a more plentiful selection. For that I think taking one of the regional board exams is a good investment.
I think this is especially crucial in the NYC tri-state area-- You want to be able to look for jobs in northern NJ and southwestern CT too.
HTH!
Hey tom, or anyone else, can you name the ten states that have their own boards off the top of your head??
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- Queens, NY
- Website
- www.iloveny.com
Hey Zurich,
Sure can:
Alabama
California
Delaware
Florida
Hawaii
Indiana
Louisiana
Mississippi
Nevada
North Carolina
HTH!
Sure can:
Alabama
California
Delaware
Florida
Hawaii
Indiana
Louisiana
Mississippi
Nevada
North Carolina
HTH!
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 8,393
- Reaction score
- 37
- Points
- 4,661
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Attending Physician
- Dentist
For what it's worth:
The Indiana Dental Association is seriously considering accepting regional licensure boards. There's a lot of momentum behind the movement, so hopefully by the time I get there, IUSD graduates won't have to worry about the individual state board. Can't remember which ones they're considering, though.
The Indiana Dental Association is seriously considering accepting regional licensure boards. There's a lot of momentum behind the movement, so hopefully by the time I get there, IUSD graduates won't have to worry about the individual state board. Can't remember which ones they're considering, though.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 1,459
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 4,551
- Location
- Queens, NY
- Website
- www.iloveny.com
Well, Indiana is surrounded on three sides with NERBS states.. IL, MI and OH. 😀
Geographically speaking, I think there's a high probability you guys will probably go NERBS..
Geographically speaking, I think there's a high probability you guys will probably go NERBS..
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2003
- Messages
- 8,393
- Reaction score
- 37
- Points
- 4,661
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Attending Physician
- Dentist
And as I recall, the NERBs doth suck mightily...D'oh! 🙁
