One Crazy Application Situation

[UnskinnyBop]

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Okay, I've decided to just out with it and ask for some advice on here...

So I graduated from college in '03 with a BS in computer science and math. My cumulative from there was a wretched 2.7. Now I know that sounds awful, but the reason for it is that my computer science department was totally corrupt and twisted. There was an awful scandal with cheating in the department. I never cheated- I'm no cheater, but I didn't turn anyone in because I'm not a rat, either. So everyone else was turning in code that grad students and professionals had written and getting past exams from former students, and I was on my own, handing in stuff that sort of worked and toughing it out on exams. I obviously looked completely inept and got a whole string of D's and C's in my major. Why didn't I change it? I'm honestly really stubborn and refuse to give up. (My future answer for the "weakness" question... hahaha.) I totally regret staying in that major, but I did. Anyway, my senior year, the whole thing blew up. There were all these investigations into the department, profesors, etc. and I was one of two students found completely innocent of cheating. The head of the department pretty much tried to bribe me into lying with the promise of changing my D's to A's, but I didn't go for it and testified against them at an honor council trial. Now, this would be a great story if it ended well, but unfortunately, due to some lawsuits from wealthy students implicated in the trial, the whole matter was closed and my bad grades stand. Ugh!

I got the hell out of there, went to Drexel's post-bacc (I hadn't taken the pre-med requirements yet), and got a 4.0 there. I also had a 4.0 in all my math courses. (The compsci ones are definitely weird looking on my transcript, but there are a whole lot of 'em). So I have a 3.1 cumulative now and a 4.0 BCPM.

I'm applying to Drexel's linkage right now and interview in February (I haven't taken the MCAT yet; if I'm accepted conditionally I need a 27). What should I say about the undergrad? I'm tempted to say it just wasn't the right major for me but that I don't give up easily and I was interested in computer science (true)... or should I mention the whole issue? I don't want to seem like I'm making excuses or anything. My pre-med advisors are sort of divided on the issue. Help!

 

[CarleneM]

Can you get a letter from the Dean of your former university that explains the situation with the computer science department or are they not allowed to even discuss it? If not, I would explain more than just it wasn't the major for you since this does seem to be a unique situation and its very impressive to me that you kept yourself out of all the cheating given the climate of the department.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Okay, I've decided to just out with it and ask for some advice on here...

So I graduated from college in '03 with a BS in computer science and math. My cumulative from there was a wretched 2.7. Now I know that sounds awful, but the reason for it is that my computer science department was totally corrupt and twisted. There was an awful scandal with cheating in the department. I never cheated- I'm no cheater, but I didn't turn anyone in because I'm not a rat, either. So everyone else was turning in code that grad students and professionals had written and getting past exams from former students, and I was on my own, handing in stuff that sort of worked and toughing it out on exams. I obviously looked completely inept and got a whole string of D's and C's in my major. Why didn't I change it? I'm honestly really stubborn and refuse to give up. (My future answer for the "weakness" question... hahaha.) I totally regret staying in that major, but I did. Anyway, my senior year, the whole thing blew up. There were all these investigations into the department, profesors, etc. and I was one of two students found completely innocent of cheating. The head of the department pretty much tried to bribe me into lying with the promise of changing my D's to A's, but I didn't go for it and testified against them at an honor council trial. Now, this would be a great story if it ended well, but unfortunately, due to some lawsuits from wealthy students implicated in the trial, the whole matter was closed and my bad grades stand. Ugh!

I got the hell out of there, went to Drexel's post-bacc (I hadn't taken the pre-med requirements yet), and got a 4.0 there. I also had a 4.0 in all my math courses. (The compsci ones are definitely weird looking on my transcript, but there are a whole lot of 'em). So I have a 3.1 cumulative now and a 4.0 BCPM.

I'm applying to Drexel's linkage right now and interview in February (I haven't taken the MCAT yet; if I'm accepted conditionally I need a 27). What should I say about the undergrad? I'm tempted to say it just wasn't the right major for me but that I don't give up easily and I was interested in computer science (true)... or should I mention the whole issue? I don't want to seem like I'm making excuses or anything. My pre-med advisors are sort of divided on the issue. Help!

i wouldn't bring up the cheating thing----it would demonstrate poor character

 

[Ylime]

But he's saying he didn't cheat. So wouldn't that be good character on his part?

 

[nabeel76]

This question is completely out of my realm so take my advice with some caution, as I have never heard anything like that before. I would think that you can play it either way,

A.) Do you have evidence that this case went to trial? Better yet, can you prove that you were one of only two students that didn't cheat? If you can, you can play this to your advantage - especially from an honor code and integrity standpoint. Refusing to cheat in an environment where everyone else is, and suffering (grade wise) due to it say's more about you than any recommendation or essay can. If you can defend yourself with evidence of that at the interview than I would definitely play that to my advantage if asked about it; it would also explain the D's pretty nicely. This would not come off at all like you are making excuses because in your case you have a valid argument and should not be punished due to your “lack of cheating.”

If you don’t have any evidence and cannot prove that you yourself were not involved in the cheating then you’re on thin water here. They might believe you or they might see this as a feeble attempt to justify your bad grades by using the department scandal as a scapegoat. This not only speaks badly of your character but paints a negative picture on the credibility of the comp. science department at your undergraduate institution. I would steer clear of this route if you can’t prove anything.

B.) You can avoid the headache of going into the elaborate story and blame the grades on the major; some people just aren't cut out for computer science. I really don’t think they will hold it against you, computer science is one of those ‘you’re either good at it or your not majors,’ besides you’ve proven yourself w/ your science courses and they must already like you somewhat as an applicant if you are invited to interview. Who knows you might get some points for your determination and willingness to succeed regardless of your grades.

That’s my 2 cents – That really does suck that you had to endure that, I would be completely pissed off If I was pulling in C’s and D’s due to everybody else cheating.

Good luck!

 

[liverotcod]

But he's saying he didn't cheat. So wouldn't that be good character on his part?

There may be "duty to report" issues in his school's honor code; that's not uncommon.

At any rate, I've read the OPs story several times now and am still unsure how to respond. I can why the advisors are split. The problem I have is that the whole situation just seems implausible. Naturally, I'm not saying that it didn't happen just as he says, but it's hard to read it that way. For one thing, it doesn't seem to me that just because many in my class are cheating, that I can't still excel. All I have to do is perform at an A level to get an A, right? In other words, do the work necessary to produce polished software that doesn't just "sort of work."

Unskinny, I apologize for what you might perceive as a pretty harsh judgment. I just think that you need to work on your explanation to take more responsibility. It reads like an excuse now, IMHO. Best wishes.

 

[stoic]

don't bring up the cheating thing unless you have a letter from the dean or department head confirming your story and speaking highly of you for not cheating.

i'd say just focus on your good grades in post bacc.

 

[UnskinnyBop]

Thanks for the advice, all. To answer some questions...

I'm unsure if I can get a letter from a dean or not. To get into my post-bacc, I sent letters from professors who were involved (who were on my side). I don't think such a letter would be sufficient in this case (since the two who wrote letters for me are no longer affiliated with the school due to this issue). The deans came down hard on the department at the beginning, but after legal pressure wound up backing off, so I'm not sure how willing they'd be to even address the issue. Doesn't hurt to call, though, which I'll consider doing.

No, there's no "duty to report" on my transcript. Georgetown's honor code explicitly states that one isn't obligated to report violations, though it's recommended.

To address your concerns, liverotcod, no offense taken. I know it's a weird story. I'm by no means claiming that I would have been an "A" student in the classes if the situation were different. In some classes I might have been, in some I might have been a "B" student. For example of a program that normally students turn in "sort of working", try a "B-tree", which is a classic assigment that you're supposed to learn from, not turn in working perfectly. I slaved over that B-tree and implemented about half the functions correctly. However, the cheaters turned in perfect B-trees, so the prof assumed I was just dumb and lazy, since his explanation was so good (hahaha). There were only about ten other CS majors in my class, which makes it sort of different. I don't think it's inconceivable to think that maybe 8/10 students cheated, as opposed to 98/100. Also, Georgetown's program was designed to be impossible, then curved. For example, in a class I had with the year above me (I placed out of some intro programming stuff frosh year), the class average on the midterm was a 25. I got a 40, and it was the best 40 of my life. Since it wasn't the cheating group, I ended up with an A for that class since the grades were adjusted. But when everyone cheats and you get a 40, you just look like you didn't study. If you weren't a CS or engineering major (which your mdapplicants doesn't seem to reflect), it's probably a very different situation from your own undergrad experience.

Sorry for the rambling. 😉

 

[CarleneM]

Ok regarding the professors who are no longer affiliated with the institution, I got a letter from a prof no longer at harvard (didn't get tenure) and no one has questioned it. as long as they explain the capacity in which they know you, whatever they have to say should be "valid" or whatever. Glad you are also going to check with the dean. I think adcoms will be concerned about why you stuck with this major so longer given the grades you got so any explanation you can provide for those grades can only help you, i feel. is it an excuse? yes. but its a legit excuse from the sounds of it and certainly a unique situation.

Thanks for the advice, all. To answer some questions...

I'm unsure if I can get a letter from a dean or not. To get into my post-bacc, I sent letters from professors who were involved (who were on my side). I don't think such a letter would be sufficient in this case (since the two who wrote letters for me are no longer affiliated with the school due to this issue). The deans came down hard on the department at the beginning, but after legal pressure wound up backing off, so I'm not sure how willing they'd be to even address the issue. Doesn't hurt to call, though, which I'll consider doing.

No, there's no "duty to report" on my transcript. Georgetown's honor code explicitly states that one isn't obligated to report violations, though it's recommended.

To address your concerns, liverotcod, no offense taken. I know it's a weird story. I'm by no means claiming that I would have been an "A" student in the classes if the situation were different. In some classes I might have been, in some I might have been a "B" student. For example of a program that normally students turn in "sort of working", try a "B-tree", which is a classic assigment that you're supposed to learn from, not turn in working perfectly. I slaved over that B-tree and implemented about half the functions correctly. However, the cheaters turned in perfect B-trees, so the prof assumed I was just dumb and lazy, since his explanation was so good (hahaha). There were only about ten other CS majors in my class, which makes it sort of different. I don't think it's inconceivable to think that maybe 8/10 students cheated, as opposed to 98/100. Also, Georgetown's program was designed to be impossible, then curved. For example, in a class I had with the year above me (I placed out of some intro programming stuff frosh year), the class average on the midterm was a 25. I got a 40, and it was the best 40 of my life. Since it wasn't the cheating group, I ended up with an A for that class since the grades were adjusted. But when everyone cheats and you get a 40, you just look like you didn't study. If you weren't a CS or engineering major (which your mdapplicants doesn't seem to reflect), it's probably a very different situation from your own undergrad experience.


Sorry for the rambling. 😉

 

[liverotcod]

I agree that cheaters in a class where there's a set curve make it really unfair on a non-cheater.

I was an English major, but am a self-taught software engineer for a living, so I have some experience with computer science. Interestingly, when first I went back to school, it was to prepare for grad school in computer science. My success in CS coursework convinced me that I still had a chance to pursue medicine. I've never written an OS, though, or anything that difficult - just business software.

I would go with "I had a hard time as an undergraduate" and leave it at that. You've proven yourself with post-bacc, and will certainly do so again with the MCAT. In my interviews, we've really focused on where I am today, after I gave a brief recital of how I arrived here.

 

[mwhou]

I think you need evidence to back your story, if not dont tell it - but I wouldn't think the Dean's lett. is required. I'd be very surprised if a current dean put that into writing! I think former profs that confirm your story & your ability would work. If you don't tell the story, I dont think you are sunk at all -you have proven your ability at exactly the courses they are worried about. That should go a long way toward making up for the GPA. Typically your main problem would have been getting you past school's initial screen-and into interview. But - you don't have that problem!

If your are going to contact the Dean I think any positive letter would also help. the dean recommending you (despite a 2.7) still confirms your story to some degree. If the dean was willing to write a letter just endorsing you as a good student - that he believed in your ability, and heard good things about you from profs, that would help a lot.

If you end up with some evidence-definitely tell your story! Its great. You wil want to work on presenting the story well, but concisely -you dont want it to consume the entire interview - and it sounds like one of those that could! Good Luck!

 

[mwhou]

In my interviews, we've really focused on where I am today, after I gave a brief recital of how I arrived here.

whether you tell or not, keep liverotcod's advice in mind.