Online Psy.D - Why not?

[lhasalover]

Hi, all. I have a Master's in educational psychology from a traditional brick and mortar university, and I am credentialed as a school psychologist. I would like to get my doctorate and go straight into private practice as a licensed clinical psychologist. I have no desire to work for any organization or teach at a college/university. I intend to pursue a Psy.D from Cal Southern (online university). They are not APA accredited, but their program meets the requirements for licensure in my state. I don't consider them a diploma mill as they are accredited by the Distance Education Training Council (DETC). There is no internship required to get the degree. The way that it works is that you earn the degree, then you find your own internship in order to get the 3,000 hours needed for licensure purposes. The 3,000 hours for licensure can even be obtained by becoming licensed as a psych assistant and working under a licensed psychologist. The tuition is VERY affordable. I'm not concerned with how the degree will be regarded by those in the field because I will only be using it to go into private practice and possibly write a couple of books. I believe that patients won't care if my degree was from a non-APA accredited program, only that I'm licensed to practice. Does anyone see any potential problems with or anything wrong with me going this route in becoming a clinical psychologist?

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[AcronymAllergy]

If you search the forums, you should be able to find at least a few other threads discussing the reasons why folks discourage others from going the online route. In short, doctoral education, particularly in a practice-oriented specialty like clinical psychology, just doesn't lend itself to an online format. It takes away from the ready availability of clinical and research supervision, and with the setup you've mentioned, it sounds like you won't be receiving any direct clinical contact at all prior to the odd internship setup they have, which is problematic; the clinical experiences should be occurring concurrently with coursework and research projects. And I'd honestly be very surprised if, despite what the program says, you can convince your state licensing board that your training will have met their qualifications, particularly depending on the type of internship you're able to find; internship spots are already difficult to come by for folks attending traditional, APA-accredited programs, so coming by one after attending classes online is going to be very, very difficult. And beyond all that, as a practitioner, I'd just be worried about the actual quality of my education and training, and just wouldn't feel comfortable treating patients (nor would I feel comfortable referring patients for treatment to someone having completed such a program).

As a semi-decent analogy (which has been mentioned on these forums previously)--I wouldn't think I could attain competency as a physician by attending medical school online, so why would clinical psychology be any different?

 

[CheetahGirl]

Let me preface by saying: This may come across as harsh from me or others but you asked...

If I were seeking a therapist for a patient/family member referral, I would pass you by because of your credentials alone, regardless of whether we met or not. Compared to"brick and mortar" PsyD programs, you simply cannot get adequate clinical training online. Period. I am usually not 'black & white' about things,
but where are your ONGOING (years 1-5) practica, externships, supervision meetings, intimate class discussions about delicate mental health issues (involved in school psych or otherwise)?!? (Please don't tell me you will do these remotely by skype). It is not a realistic option in my opinion that yields a favorable career outcome. I'm usually not negative either...but this ounce of realism may sound negative. After just going through the internship application process this year, I'd be surprised if you got an internship match after successive yearly attempts. I would use this thread to kick around other options for your best career outcome. Online is a waste of time and money and the clinical training is lacking (or subpar at best). Hopefully someone else will post more forward thinking options, but I hope you'll think about my opinion for not only your benefit but your future clients. Good luck!

 

[erg923]

Yes. As nobody would view this as anything but a glorified masters degree, AT THE MOST. Its not really a doctorate, at least if we are using the same definition of "doctorate" and "clinical psychology" its not.

As side from that nonsense, what possible benefit would this provide you? You are already a school psychologist, supposedly. Work for a district or freelance and make money now. You wont make anymore with this current plan.

 

[erg923]

http://www.calsouthern.edu/online-psychology-degrees/doctor-psychology-degree/
The PsyD: Psychology’s Applied Doctorate
The Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) differs from the PhD in that, whereas the PhD is focused primarily on academic research and scholarly publication, the PsyD degree is an applied degree that is clinically focused. It emphasizes counseling and therapy and gives you great leverage and opportunity in your career—you can move into virtually any position in any organizational hierarchy with the PsyD.

This is all make believe. Literally, every single assertion is wrong.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Looking through erg's link, they do mention something about "approved practica," so perhaps there's some clinical exposure prior to internship. Regardless, online doctoral education in an applied discipline just isn't viable, at least as currently stands (and I personally don't foresee that changing). And this quotation is particularly worrisome:

With maximum transfer credits and by taking courses simultaneously, Learners can complete the degree program in as little as two years. Or, Learners can proceed at a more leisurely pace and complete in no more than 10 years. All coursework is taken online with practicum done at approved local sites

2 years? Really?

 

[erg923]

Here are a couple good reads for the original poster. One satirical. One serious. The latter is important because I don't think its something that people think about, but its very very important.

I'm currently getting my degree from Uncle Bill's Online PsyD Emporium and I will NOT hear you questioning the worth of these sterling online programs! The best part is, it's a one year program! Granted, tuition is $180,000. But I think it's worth it, because I'm getting great training (through their virtual therapy simulator) and I'll be in the work force sooner and able to pay off my debt faster than all those dinosaurs in the brick and mortar schools. And yes, their internship match rate is currently 0%, but I really think the smaller cohort they accepted this year (only 837 of us) is getting the individual attention necessary to make us competitive and bring up that percentage. Have fun with your research, LOSERS!

1. The term "philosophy" in the academic title "Doctor or Philosophy" does not refer to the academic field of philosophy. The term traces its roots back thousands of years when science was primarily practiced by philosophers of the day (e.g., St. Thomas Aquinas). Philo is Latin for "love of wisdom." In the scientists-practitioner model, clinical training is viewed as application of an experimental and pseudoexperiemental science, thus being a philosophy scholar is viewed as an essential element for optimal application/practice.

2. The online "Doctor of Psychology" degree is most certainly NOT a doctorate in "psychology." In fact, the primary criticism of that model is that there is not enough psychology (meaning the broad study of human behavior using the scientific method) in the Psy.D. Rather, a "cart before the horse" mentality has emerged that teaches the application of psychology without teaching much/enough actual psychology to be able to properly understand it. I witnessed this when I had to spend an entire class teaching operant learning schedules with 3rd year PsyD students when i was teaching cognitive behavioral psychotherapy.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Does anyone see any potential problems with or anything wrong with me going this route in becoming a clinical psychologist?

Yes. Many. The training outlined at that program is pathetic. It is insulting to anyone who goes through a legitimate training program, practica, internship, fellowship, etc.

 

[psychtalk1274]

Hmmmm.... while clients might be naive to what degree you have and if it was apa accredited shouldnt you care? My question is why don't you want a better education for the betterment of your clients? I'm sorry there is no easy route to getting your psy.d or ph.d.

 

[lhasalover]

Hi, everyone. I want to thank you all for the posts. Could someone explain the internship match rate process to me? The advisors at Cal Southern said that I could get a psych assistant license/certificate and work under the supervision of a private psychologist to get my internship hours. Does anyone feel that this is a viable option? This is not about money for me. I don't particularly like being a school psychologist, and I definitely don't like working for school districts. I would rather work for myself in my own private practice as a clinical psychologist.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I'm on my phone so I dont have enough time to explain the internship process. but after all we said you are STILL considering this? .....sigh

 

[erg923]

Hi, everyone. I want to thank you all for the posts. Could someone explain the internship match rate process to me? The advisors at Cal Southern said that I could get a psych assistant license/certificate and work under the supervision of a private psychologist to get my internship hours. Does anyone feel that this is a viable option? This is not about money for me. I don't particularly like being a school psychologist, and I definitely don't like working for school districts. I would rather work for myself in my own private practice as a clinical psychologist.

One has to apply to a national internship match process (called predoctoral internship) and complete one full year of clinical work at the site they match to IN ORDER TO EARN THE DEGREE.

The advisor is speaking about what one needs to do to Be eligible for licensure in CA AFTER your degree is granted.

 

[lhasalover]

One has to apply to a national internship match process (called predoctoral internship) and complete one full year of clinical work at the site they match to IN ORDER TO EARN THE DEGREE.

The advisor is speaking about what one needs to do to Be eligible for licensure in CA AFTER your degree is granted.

Thanks. Yes, the program does not have an internship. The degree will be awarded without that. It does have a practicum though. Do you think that the option that I posted above for getting my 3,000 post-doc hours is viable? The program does meet licensure requirements for both CA and AZ. Those are the states that I'm considering practicing in. Also, I checked with Blue Cross/Blue shield and in order to become a contracted provider for them, your school for the doctorate doesn't matter, only that you are licensed in the state that you will be practicing in.

 

[erg923]

I do not think this is a good idea. This is now the third time I have stated this.

 

[lhasalover]

Then you will not be eligible for licensure as a clinical psychologist in any of the 50 states. So whats the point?!

I will be eligible for licensure in CA and I also checked AZ.

 

[erg923]

All states require a set number of hours that must be completed predoctoral and post-doctorally. You would not met these requirements.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The advisor is speaking about what one needs to do to Be eligible for licensure in CA AFTER your degree is granted.

It should probably be salesman/saleswoman, as they are selling degrees…not providing a proper education.

 

[psychtalk1274]

It looks like your mind is made up to do this. has anybody in this field told you this would be a good idea? no so it probably isnt.

 

[lhasalover]

It looks like your mind is made up to do this. has anybody in this field told you this would be a good idea? no so it probably isnt.

http://www.calsouthern.edu/university-blog/2010/03/24/alumni-spotlight-julie-myers-psy-d/

Here is an alumni of the program. She obtained licensure in CA through the program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If a program is writing an article to congratulate someone for passing a licensure exam and getting licensed in a state….that should be a red flag.

 

[deleted375280]

You asked if this was a good idea. Everyone has told you no and you do not seem to want to listen. Arguing about it does not change the fact that if you do this, you will get significantly subpar training, will in no way be a peer to reputable psychologists, and potentially be a danger to patients. Would you trust a surgeon that did their training online? This should be a no brainer.

 

[erg923]

Its a program that circumvents all aspects of peer oversight in its training. No accreditation by the peer body of this profession. No internship (I didnt even no that was possible). No oral dissertation defense. No practicum supervision and oversight by academic faculty. What do you think this is about?

To me, thus suggests a program that is in the "business" of education, not in actually providing it. And certainly not concerned with training actual psychologists... at least not real ones. It may produce therapists with a doctorate, but thats certainly not what a "psychologist" is.

You asked if this was a good idea. No. It is not. Will you be able to get licensed and play psychologist with the degree in CA? maybe. So if that's what you wanna do, go ahead. I don't know where you think you will get all these patients from though. They dont just fall in your lap. I am not sure how you were raised, but I was always taught that anything worth doing is worth doing right. I have marked concerns that you simply want a degree, but dont care much for the work or for the quality of the training provided.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

These data are uhm….horrible.

41 out of 183 graduates are actually employed in the field….22% employment rate! God help anyone who hired those people. I wonder what % were previously employed in the field and just kept their job?

 

[psychtalk1274]

Haha it should be expected you pass the eppp. at my program they require you to do this for quals though you only have to pass at the masters level, however, it is looked down upon if you dont pass it at the doctoral level at the time of quals.

Your lack of regard for your training is ridiculous. don't you want to be the best psychologist out there? plus you live in California which is over saturated with psyd phds from apa accredited programs so how exactly do you plan on getting clients? referrals?

 

[erg923]

These data are uhm….horrible.

41 out of 183 graduates are actually employed in the field….22% employment rate! God help anyone who hired those people.

50 attrition. Only 40% of people who matriculate work as"psychologists." Yea, Quality.

The odds are stacked against you on this one, kid.

 

[erg923]

I noticed that this outcome data was also conspicuous difficulty to find. It is not readily available on the program webpage. That is very sly.

This reminds me that I received an email this week from a woman from an unaccredited online program at Walden U asking if I or anyone else at our VA could provide her with a practicum. Apparently, in online programs, its the student's responsibility to arrange their training. Kinda thought that was what the program was for, but whatev...I got passed that. Do they have to find their own classes too....

Anyway, I informed her that we had already arranged our prac students for the coming year and that we only accepted students from APA accredited programs for practicum anyway. She wrote me back very disappointed that this was the case and stated that she had always intended to work in the VA as a psychologist after her degree! I was not happy to crush this person's dream, but it is incredible to me that one can get 3 years into a doctorate and have such a poor understanding of how to obtain their career goal. She obviously will never be able to work for VA as a psychologist coming from this program. Even though she should have known this, the fact that the program did not communicate this or even know about this tells me everything I need to know about the quality of the program.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I noticed that this outcome data was also conspicuous difficulty to find. It is not readily available on the program webpage. That is very sly.

I only found it after googling specifically for it, though the average applicant most likely won't know to look for it. I wonder how likely it is that the sales person…err…"advisor" readily discloses this information without being directly asked about it?

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I'm not convinced that this post isn't trolling, but in case it isn't...

I think you'd be much better off with a license-eligible master's degree from a good institution. Have you considered this? You could be taken seriously and are much more likely to learn something.

 

[PsyDr]

Narcissism has a way of making people think that there is a shortcut for them.

 

[erg923]

I'm not convinced that this post isn't trolling, but in case it isn't...

I think you'd be much better off with a license-eligible master's degree from a good institution. Have you considered this? You could be taken seriously and are much more likely to learn something.

Not enough provocativeness to be trolling. I think the answers have been cogent and pleasant, with the proverbial "oh brother" tone of frustration and indignation on our parts. Not too shabby. I give us an A-.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Not enough provocativeness to be trolling. I think the answers have been cogent and pleasant, with the proverbial "oh brother" tone of frustration and indignation on our parts. Not too shabby. I give us an A-.

I was wondering about trolling because that school seems so amazingly bad and hits on all of the things that annoy us about the diploma mills.

 

[psychtalk1274]

I think this is a person I ran into on weddingbee forum who asked about psyd and I encouraged her to go to this forum. I had no clue she meant on an online program. I had mentioned psyd's being diploma mills, the debt, internship crisis etc. So she was trying to address that, I guess.

 

[erg923]

I think this is a person I ran into on weddingbee forum who asked about psyd and I encouraged her to go to this forum. I had no clue she meant on an online program. I had mentioned psyd's being diploma mills, the debt, internship crisis etc. So she was trying to address that, I guess.

Take money that was going to be wasted at Calsouthern and thrown bitchin wedding with Tony Bennett as personal wedding singer. Then apply to real doctoral program.

 

[deleted75966]

We so need a flexner like revolution in psych. Bunch of *******es in our field.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

We so need a flexner like revolution in psych. Bunch of *******es in our field.

I know you've said this before, JS, and I 100% agree. Unfortunately, I just don't know if it's possible with the current proliferation of for-profit schools across all disciplines, and the combination of inability and lack of initiative on the part of the APA to take action (particularly considering that their recent conferences have been sponsored by either Alliant or Argosy).

 

[cara susanna]

You don't have to complete an internship to graduate? Seriously? How is that possible? I know that it isn't APA accredited, but how can they call it a clinical psych PsyD program without that?

Edit: That graduate who was highlighted in that article mentioned doing an internship. Also, she is obtaining her MS in psychopharm to prescribe. Lovely.

Double edit because I'm not done making fun of their website yet:

all faculty mentors in the PsyD program have a doctoral degree as well as extensive experience as a mental health care practitioner)

WOW, all faculty members have a doctoral degree? That is SO impressive and worth bragging about!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I blame the CA psych licensing board for allowing that hodgepodge of training to be sufficient for licensure.

 

[cara susanna]

Is this the same as our type of internship? The hours are lower, at least comparing to my internship.

http://www.calsouthern.edu/online-p...y-degree/doctor-psychology-courses/psy-88000/

 

[erg923]

You don't have to complete an internship to graduate? Seriously? How is that possible?

Yea, I have never heard of such a thing. I have heard of one or two program that have encapsulated internships. The Ph,D program within the UT southwest med does this, but they have a normal 5 year program so that there is a 3-4 years of practicum training that is done before one start full time clinical work.

 

[erg923]

Is this the same as our type of internship? The hours are lower, at least comparing to my internship.

http://www.calsouthern.edu/online-p...y-degree/doctor-psychology-courses/psy-88000/

Yea. Typical predoctoral internship is 2080. Which is 40 hours for 52 weeks.

 

[cara susanna]

I think that this is really, really concerning. Sketchy programs with bad APA match rates are one thing, but this program is (I'm assuming deliberately) bypassing a standard requirement for any PsyD or PhD clinical psych program.

 

[LPPSYD]

I wish people like the OP would recognize it's not about YOU and the degree you want to get at all costs, it's about the patients whose lives you will be impacting, negatively in this case. The comment about the patients not even knowing how sh*tty his/her training was really made me angry.

Edited to add: Did anyone notice in the alumni article she says THIS:
" I found it best to take one class at a time and concentrate on it completely."

Is it possible she literally means taking ONE class at a time?

 

[lhasalover]

No, I'm not a troll. I'm having a hard time understanding that if the program is so bad, then why are graduates eligible to take the licensing exam once they complete the requirements??

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Loopholes in how most of the state laws were written. Instead of requiring APA-acred. everything, (most) states require "APA or equivalent" training, which impacts how the licensing boards can act. Way back when these laws were first instituted there weren't predatory businesses pretending to be institutions of higher education, so the language in the proposed legislation (that later became laws) didn't seem like it'd be a problem. Now there is too much money flowing to try and close the loopholes. EACH state needs to fix their respective laws, so it is a very costly and time intensive process. The APA is hemorrhaging membership, so they aren't super motivated to shutdown programs that could produce future dues paying members. Some of the worst programs are the ones funneling money to APA, so it is hard to bite the hand that feeds.

 

[lhasalover]

Loopholes in how most of the state laws were written. Instead of requiring APA-acred. everything, (most) states require "APA or equivalent" training, which impacts how the licensing boards can act. Way back when these laws were first instituted there weren't predatory businesses pretending to be institutions of higher education, so the language in the proposed legislation (that later became laws) didn't seem like it'd be a problem. Now there is too much money flowing to try and close the loopholes. EACH state needs to fix their respective laws, so it is a very costly and time intensive process. The APA is hemorrhaging membership, so they aren't super motivated to shutdown programs that could produce future dues paying members. Some of the worst programs are the ones funneling money to APA, so it is hard to bite the hand that feeds.

This means that the APA isn't so reputable, then doesn't it? I'm not trying to argue with anybody, I'm just trying to understand.

 

[lhasalover]

I want the training to be adequate, yes, and now I am concerned about the 22% employment rate. I have contacted the psychologist in the alumni spotlight that I posted above, and I'm waiting on her to reply with her perspective on this.

 

[deleted375280]

I want the training to be adequate, yes, and now I am concerned about the 22% employment rate. I have contacted the psychologist in the alumni spotlight that I posted above, and I'm waiting on her to reply with her perspective on this.

Online training for a healthcare degree is not adequate. Period.

 

[Jxz]

I'm assuming that the state licensing board in the OP's state has made a requirement that in order to get a license to practice psychology all you need is a doctoral degree in psychology and a certain amount of hours of supervised experience--doesn't matter if that supervised experience is an APA accredited pre-doctoral internship or accumulating 3000 hours post-doctoral as working as a psychology assistant.

If that's the case then that's the only thing that the OP has to do and I'd encourage her to do that.

It's true that some people would consider your education/xp before they refer patients to you. But then again, I can name doctoral level psychs who completed APA internships, APA post-docs, and the ABPP who I consider unethical and wouldn't refer anyone to.

 

[erg923]

The 22% employment rate is easy if you think about it for more than half a second.

1. The program draws naive/ uninformed applicants (200 something of them each year), most of whom are not intellectual prepared for the work.

2. Who hires a psychologist who got an online degree? Seriously?!

 

[psychtalk1274]

You want good education get a psyd or phd housed in a university that is funded and takes 5 to 6 years. there are no shortcuts if you want to be a clinician who can look in the mirror and be happy with themselves. you want an easy way. There isnt any.
also, states are now trying to change the equivalent to apa thing to only apa accredited. please take our advice. I dont understand how if 10 people are telling you this is not only a bad idea this is a horrendous idea you would stll be okay with it. really? come on now, have some respect for your education.