Only 2 Interviews. Advice?

[newbiegal]

Hi All, this is a throw away account. I applied to about 20 psych programs, 4 combined psych-neuro programs and about 25 neuro programs. My stats aren't great Step 1 199 (failed first time/sick and took medical LOA); Step 2 CK 210/CS Passed. I'm not a strong test taker I know, but I was hoping my application would be viewed for more than just numbers. I feel like I am being filtered out since I only have 2 interviews total after applying the day before applications. I have no neuro interviews (2 rejections), 2 psych interviews (1 rejection/1 home/1 away), no combined. Honestly, I was concerned that I may not get any neuro invites before applying but I decided to apply anyway because it is my interest and always has been. Maybe I didn't apply to the right programs but I don't have anyone really giving me sound advice. I had to select the programs myself. Here are the psych programs I applied to:

-lsuhsc shreveport
-lsuhsc Baton Rouge rejected
-UAB
-lsuhsc New Orleans
-Tulane
-yale
-UMMC
-Univer of Maryland Sheppard Pratt
-hopkins
-duke
-MUSC
-MGH McLean
-UMass
-NYU
-UPenn
-UPMC Pitts
-Univ South Alabama
-Northwestern
-UTSW


I know there were programs I probably shouldn't have applied to but I only live once and I won't know if I have a chance unless I apply. Are there other programs that I should have applied to? I did well on my away and will get a strong letter, so I will add that to my applications next week and hope to contact programs to ask them to take a second look at my application.

Thanks for any advice.

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[thoffen]

The step failure is probably knocking you out of consideration at a lot of places right now. Stay in touch and especially December-ish people will start cancelling interviews and they might give you a slot. Genuine interest in a particular program or location and brevity are your friends.

 

[Twomonty17]

Not trying to be harsh, but I don't see a single safety in that list and that's for people with average stats.

 

[LimpSpatula]

I'm leaning towards troll thread. But if not

You should add 40+ programs today. "You only live once", so you only apply to 20 programs? There's a dissonance there.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hi All, this is a throw away account. I applied to about 20 psych programs, 4 combined psych-neuro programs and about 25 neuro programs. My stats aren't great Step 1 199 (failed first time/sick and took medical LOA); Step 2 CK 210/CS Passed. I'm not a strong test taker I know, but I was hoping my application would be viewed for more than just numbers. I feel like I am being filtered out since I only have 2 interviews total after applying the day before applications. I have no neuro interviews (2 rejections), 2 psych interviews (1 rejection/1 home/1 away), no combined. Honestly, I was concerned that I may not get any neuro invites before applying but I decided to apply anyway because it is my interest and always has been. Maybe I didn't apply to the right programs but I don't have anyone really giving me sound advice. I had to select the programs myself. Here are the psych programs I applied to:

-lsuhsc shreveport
-lsuhsc Baton Rouge rejected
-UAB
-lsuhsc New Orleans
-Tulane
-yale
-UMMC
-Univer of Maryland Sheppard Pratt
-hopkins
-duke
-MUSC
-MGH McLean
-UMass
-NYU
-UPenn
-UPMC Pitts
-Univ South Alabama
-Northwestern
-UTSW


I know there were programs I probably shouldn't have applied to but I only live once and I won't know if I have a chance unless I apply. Are there other programs that I should have applied to? I did well on my away and will get a strong letter, so I will add that to my applications next week and hope to contact programs to ask them to take a second look at my application.

Thanks for any advice.

That's shooting pretty damn high and narrow for a person with a failure. Should have applied broader and to more community programs.

 

[Amygdarya]

Re "you only live once" principle: it means that you apply to as many "reaches" as you can afford, but not at the expense of applying to programs where you can realistically match. You list is *very* top heavy, and you have zero chance of getting interviews at most programs on your list. If you're planning on matching this year, you should apply to 20ish community/less competitive programs in your geographic region(s) of interest *right now*.

 

[newbiegal]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm not a troll btw. I applied combined because that was my first choice with backup neurology and psychiatry programs. I was trying to apply to as many as I could afford ($700). I just don't really understand the difference in the tiers so much. How do I know what a community program is? I was trying to apply southeast and midwest mostly. I kept asking my "supposed mentors" about a list of programs but I was basically told I should be ok applying to Hopkins and places like that. My dean told me to apply to 25 total with my four combined programs and a mixture of neurology and psychiatry. I chose to apply to as many as I did. This is what I was advised. I can try and apply to more places if I it means I'll match somewhere I suppose. I looked at most places websites and if they said they had a minimal step or a failure policy then I didn't apply. Trust me, I looked at 100s of programs in psychiatry and neurology.

 

[Jdoc91]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm not a troll btw. I applied combined because that was my first choice with backup neurology and psychiatry programs. I was trying to apply to as many as I could afford ($700). I just don't really understand the difference in the tiers so much. How do I know what a community program is? I was trying to apply southeast and midwest mostly. I kept asking my "supposed mentors" about a list of programs but I was basically told I should be ok applying to Hopkins and places like that. My dean told me to apply to 25 total with my four combined programs and a mixture of neurology and psychiatry. I chose to apply to as many as I did. This is what I was advised. I can try and apply to more places if I it means I'll match somewhere I suppose. I looked at most places websites and if they said they had a minimal step or a failure policy then I didn't apply. Trust me, I looked at 100s of programs in psychiatry and neurology.

Where are your interviews?

 

[valid username]

You can look on the general tab in freida for average step 1 scores. Not all lrograms gategorize, but more than half do. There is a category less than 200, 201-220, then the rest of them. I just did a quick peek at my list of programs. 2 of them had less than 200: meharry in nashville, tn & maricopa medical in mesa, az. I would add those 2 today. You could add Larkin, but read about the tragedy of hollywood, FL during Irma. The guy that owns that nursing home also owns Larkin.

Lastly, if you don't have more than 3 people to house consider adding all the NYC programs. I had to pass on all those because I can't afford the housing. I'm guessing a lot of other people have to do that, too.

Good luck to you.

 

[newbiegal]

I have an interview at my home program for psych and where I'm doing my away for psych. I'll have the add the additional programs @valid mentioned. I have no attachments because I'm single. Thanks. I just wished I had someone at my school to provide better advisement, and I don't. I'm staying positive.

 

[LimpSpatula]

@newbiegal Usually community programs won't have "university" in the name. That being said there are university programs that may grant you interviews still. But you won't know unless you cast a wide net. Think 80+ programs. I know this process is expensive but this is not a time where you should be conservative.

It's unfortunate your advisors weren't helpful. Do you go to a higher caliber MD school by chance? Perhaps that was their reasoning. Everyone here has given solid advice though.

Best of luck.

 

[splik]

You could apply to this programs: FIU, Citrus Heath, Larkin, Largo, palm beach, coliseum, MCG, Morehouse, Loyola, SIU, Advocate Lutheran, UIC Peoria, Rosalind Franklin, community health network, kansas (any of them), kentucky, pinerest, central michigan, st mary mercy, western michigan, missouri, creighton, carolinas, mountain area, ECU, wake forest, metrohealth, toledo, neomed, oklahoma (any), allegheny, penn state, drexel, temple, thomas jefferson, albert einstein (philly), tennessee, vanderbilt, and ETSU.

these are programs in the geographical areas you described above.

a community program is one not based at an academic medical center most programs in psychiatry are community based even if they are called x university because they arent based at x university. Im sure there are a bunch of other programs, so it is confusing for everyone why you mainly applied to programs you had no hope in hell of ever matching into and did not also apply to a range of programs. psychiatry not being a competitive speciality does not mean someone with multiple red flags and a few yellow ones can get into yale, mgh etc

 

[valid username]

Not all medical students have the money to cast wide. If she simply does not have it, then she needs to spend it carefully. Think sniper, not shotgun if you don't have the money. Search for programs with lowest scores and lowest pay ($44k is a popular lower tier pay) and aim for those. Look on scutwork and check programs rated 1, then check the 2's. Honestly, 2 interviews for 20 apps at this stage is pretty good. Her LORs must be golden.

Vanderbilt's avg step1 is >220. If you read their resident bios they seem VERY choosy.

 

[J ROD]

Yeah, you applied too HIGH. need to start adding low tier programs in Psych ASAP.

 

[newbiegal]

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate the harshness. I also was told if I applied neurology one place don't apply psychiatry at the same programs. For example, I applied to Vandy and a few of the UICs as my neurology programs. Being interested in the combined pathway made it a little harder for me to choose the which neurology or psychiatry programs to apply. I tried to have a good selection for each.

 

[newbiegal]

I realize that I was too ambitious.

 

[valid username]

If you will pm me your email i can send you a spreadsheet of programs that have accepted with failed steps. I have a friend with similar stats as yours (even though when we studied together she clearly knew more than me!). Don't be too hard on yourself. You followed the advice you were given, then you noticed a problem. Now you are trying to remedy it.

One other thing to consider, search freida for "NOT NRMP" then contact those programs. You can sign a contract and opt out of match.

 

[newbiegal]

If you will pm me your email i can send you a spreadsheet of programs that have accepted with failed steps. I have a friend with similar stats as yours (even though when we studied together she clearly knew more than me!). Don't be too hard on yourself. You followed the advice you were given, then you noticed a problem. Now you are trying to remedy it.

One other thing to consider, search freida for "NOT NRMP" then contact those programs. You can sign a contract and opt out of match.

I couldn't pm you because of some rules about this being a new account.

 

[valid username]

I couldn't pm you because of some rules about this being a new account.

Sending you my email addy

 

[psychattending]

If you will pm me your email i can send you a spreadsheet of programs that have accepted with failed steps. I have a friend with similar stats as yours (even though when we studied together she clearly knew more than me!). Don't be too hard on yourself. You followed the advice you were given, then you noticed a problem. Now you are trying to remedy it.

One other thing to consider, search freida for "NOT NRMP" then contact those programs. You can sign a contract and opt out of match.

If she is currently an "american medical student" and graduating this spring; she is not allowed to go outside of the Match.

Agree with the comments of others that she needs to hit multiple lower rank schools in her region of interest with applications. Just realize that it is already late in the interview season to be sending out applications. I have probably received >95% of the total number of applications that I will receive this year.

 

[DJKitty]

Out of the psychiatry programs you applied to, you probably won't get interviews from Tulane, Yale, Sheppard-Pratt, Hopkins, Duke, MUSC, MGH/McLean, NYU, Penn, UPMC, Northwestern, UTSW and most likely UMass and UMMC. That leaves LSUHSC New Orleans, UAB, and South Alabama that you have a chance at. You do not want to go to LSUHSC-Shreveport if you can avoid it (Do a search on the forums).

You should apply to any new program, community programs, and programs in places where people don't want to live. Boston, NYC, the entire state of California, etc will be competitive due to location. Also, just an FYI but MGH/McLean is the #1 ranked psychiatry program in the country and they have their pick of the litter.

 

[valid username]

If she is currently an "american medical student" and graduating this spring; she is not allowed to go outside of the Match.

I apologize. I was not aware that it was this way. I am very sorry.

 

[TexasPhysician]

This will sound harsh, but you need to hear it. Start sending applications to 50+ lower tier programs immediately. Your stats do not allow you to be picky with geography. You need 10+ interviews with those stats. Many of your current applications are guaranteed rejections. A step failure is an automatic non-interview at many mid-tier programs.

 

[newbiegal]

Thank you for the additional replies. I realize that I'm not in the best position. I applied to 25 more programs that splik suggested. I hope something comes of it. So far the Carolinas program sent me a secondary before they will look at my application. Typical why them. I wasn't given great advice and I blame myself for not being a great applicant. There is more to the story but I rather not go into a lot of detail. I will wish for the best at this point. Thanks for your assistance.

 

[splik]

At this point I would recommend your mentor or some psychiatrist from your medical school with some connections contacts programs on your behalf extolling your virtues (assuming they think you have the potential to be a great psychiatrist). We do consider more than scores in psychiatry but you have to have redeeming features that won't make yours scores irrelevant but can help a bit. Unfortunately we don't know what, if any, those might be. If your school screwed you over at this point they could at least put in some leg work to rectify it

Also if you're interested in neuro you may want to apply to some of the less competitive prelim medicine programs as PGY2 neurology spots not infrequently become available though I'm not sure how competitive you would be for neuro as I'm not a neurologist but I imagine it would be a struggle and you probably wouldn't be able to pass the neurology boards (they're a lot harder than most specialty boards)

 

[TexasPhysician]

Thank you for the additional replies. I realize that I'm not in the best position. I applied to 25 more programs that splik suggested. I hope something comes of it. So far the Carolinas program sent me a secondary before they will look at my application. Typical why them. I wasn't given great advice and I blame myself for not being a great applicant. There is more to the story but I rather not go into a lot of detail. I will wish for the best at this point. Thanks for your assistance.

Consider adding the 2 Texas Tech programs, JPS, and UT-Houston.
Call the Tech programs and express your desire to be in West Texas.

 

[Celexa]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm not a troll btw. I applied combined because that was my first choice with backup neurology and psychiatry programs. I was trying to apply to as many as I could afford ($700). I just don't really understand the difference in the tiers so much. How do I know what a community program is? I was trying to apply southeast and midwest mostly. I kept asking my "supposed mentors" about a list of programs but I was basically told I should be ok applying to Hopkins and places like that. My dean told me to apply to 25 total with my four combined programs and a mixture of neurology and psychiatry. I chose to apply to as many as I did. This is what I was advised. I can try and apply to more places if I it means I'll match somewhere I suppose. I looked at most places websites and if they said they had a minimal step or a failure policy then I didn't apply. Trust me, I looked at 100s of programs in psychiatry and neurology.

It makes me sad you got such bad advice. Did you talk to anyone in the psych residency administration at your home program or only your dean and random attendings? I've found that attendings who are not directly involved in the current match process often don't have the information to update their advice from whenever they applied...and thus can give badly out of date recommendations Your best bet, as splik mentioned above, is probably to see if people will advocate for you at programs that are a better match to your profile than your original list.

 

[UTsksk]

Consider adding the 2 Texas Tech programs, JPS, and UT-Houston.
Call the Tech programs and express your desire to be in West Texas.

These programs are still accepting applications?

 

[valid username]

There are actually 3 TTUHSC programs in W. Texas. El Paso, Lubbock, and Permian Basin (Midland-Odessa). For some reason the PB one has only taken males so far, so maybe not a wise choice?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Taking all one gender or the other isn't always a reflection of a bias. Sometimes it just happens. If it happens a couple of times, then it starts to self perpetuate. Once that happens, the only way to steer things is to severely cut down one gender vs. the other. I think people assume that directors have more control than they do. Everyone tries for diversity, but ultimately the outcomes reflect the population of graduates from medical schools. Some programs may get more diversity than others, but well qualified minority doctors decide where they want to be more than programs decide to "allow them in". The only way to change demographics of post graduate medical education is at the beginning of undergraduate medical education.

 

[newbiegal]

It makes me sad you got such bad advice. Did you talk to anyone in the psych residency administration at your home program or only your dean and random attendings? I've found that attendings who are not directly involved in the current match process often don't have the information to update their advice from whenever they applied...and thus can give badly out of date recommendations Your best bet, as splik mentioned above, is probably to see if people will advocate for you at programs that are a better match to your profile than your original list.

I did have a "psych mentor" who I started working with this year but she didn't give me any specific suggestions on programs. I told her my plan to apply combined with back up psych and neurology. She knew I had failed my step the first time but she said I would be fine. I also spoke to the chair of my department and he said I could apply to Hopkins, UAB, Emory, and places like that. I spoke to another attending I had known for a long-time and he also said with confidence that people from my school can go to where ever we wanted. We are an unranked school and I would call us Top anything. I just think they are unaware of the times and their info is a little outdate. It's not like when they matched.

 

[valid username]

Taking all one gender or the other isn't always a reflection of a bias. Sometimes it just happens. If it happens a couple of times, then it starts to self perpetuate. Once that happens, the only way to steer things is to severely cut down one gender vs. the other. I think people assume that directors have more control than they do. Everyone tries for diversity, but ultimately the outcomes reflect the population of graduates from medical schools. Some programs may get more diversity than others, but well qualified minority doctors decide where they want to be more than programs decide to "allow them in". The only way to change demographics of post graduate medical education is at the beginning of undergraduate medical education.

I know it could be the case. I hope it's not a bias. Otherwise I wasted that $26.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Taking all one gender or the other isn't always a reflection of a bias. Sometimes it just happens. If it happens a couple of times, then it starts to self perpetuate. Once that happens, the only way to steer things is to severely cut down one gender vs. the other. I think people assume that directors have more control than they do. Everyone tries for diversity, but ultimately the outcomes reflect the population of graduates from medical schools. Some programs may get more diversity than others, but well qualified minority doctors decide where they want to be more than programs decide to "allow them in". The only way to change demographics of post graduate medical education is at the beginning of undergraduate medical education.

I had one year that had 6 women and 2 men.
2 years later it was 7 guys and 1 woman, and a nearby program ended up with 1 guy and 6 women.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I had one year that had 6 women and 2 men.
2 years later it was 7 guys and 1 woman, and a nearby program ended up with 1 guy and 6 women.

Yep, same thing here. Gender, race, orientation.... Even if you do try and rank a preference, the trends can run the other direction in any given match. These are very small "N"s in a very large pool. Regression to the mean isn't very strong in once a year events.