Only 6 points! Arg!

[Thunderbunny]

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So, I just got my grades back from my Calculus class, and I am six points under the cutoff for getting a B. I have never had to do this before, but should I email the professor and beg for the points? She knows I tried really hard in the class, and math is just not my strong suit. I think it's too late for extra credit, but should I try anyway?

 

[Caninerepro]

It depends on how much of the total points in the class 6 points is. Are within like a 1% cutoff? It does not hurt to ask NICELY when you are near the cut-off for grace, but do not expect it. I feel your pain, I myself got a C in calculus, and in several classes was within 3-5 points of the A/B line. In one case I did get a B+ instead of a B, and even that can help your GPA more than you'd think. Good luck.

 

[1CellNtheSea]

So, I just got my grades back from my Calculus class, and I am six points under the cutoff for getting a B. I have never had to do this before, but should I email the professor and beg for the points? She knows I tried really hard in the class, and math is just not my strong suit. I think it's too late for extra credit, but should I try anyway?

I don't know about that. 6 points is a lot, and you're closer to a D than you are to a B. It stinks, but that's life! 🙁 Learn from it and do better next time.

 

[Tiempo]

Well, it wouldn't hurt to ask if there is anything you can do, but I'd also take into consideration 6 points out of how many. If it is 6 points out of 50 or 100 points total in the class, then you are more than likely screwed. If it is 6 points out of 3000 total, and you've turned every assignment in on time and attempted to answer every answer on every exam, then you probably have a better shot! Good luck.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No. I know it sounds harsh, but that would be 6 points you didn't earn. Even when I have been one point below a grade cutoff, I have never asked for points I didn't earn.....its very tempting I'll admit, but don't do it.

 

[jglovicz]

I think % tells us more than points...did you earn 79.44 when 79.5 was rounded up to a B-? If you earned a 79.4, I would say you are probably SOL. I would not be inclined to ask for the bump up (I'm sure, especially in a sizable class, there are a lot of people on the fence between grades). Good luck.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think it really depends on how much your exams were worth. If each of your exams were worth 100 points or below, 6 points is HUGE. It's like as if you're asking your professor to raise one of your exam grades from a 74 to an 80! I'm not sure how fair that would be to the rest of your classmates.

 

[runnerDC]

I would strongly recommend NOT doing what you propose. You don't want to be "that student" who grubs for a grade you did not earn.

There are times when you miss the mark by a fraction and other times when you make the mark by a fraction. Throughout your academic career, these events will even out. Take the grade you earned and move on.

So, I just got my grades back from my Calculus class, and I am six points under the cutoff for getting a B. I have never had to do this before, but should I email the professor and beg for the points? She knows I tried really hard in the class, and math is just not my strong suit. I think it's too late for extra credit, but should I try anyway?

 

[oregonhopeful]

There was a time in anatomy lab when I received an A- instead of an A, due to one point out of five hundred or so. I had a 92.5% in the class. The thing that hurt most was when I realized that had I not had some weird kind of freudian slip on the practical, it would have been fine. (I wrote gluteus maximus instead of gastrocnemius. strange mistake that I turned crimson for when my TA handed back the exam at the end of term)
Never once did I consider asking her to bump up my grade. I didn't want to be "that student." I figured it was my own stupid fault for not being a little more careful. runnerDC is right - these things even out. I had the opposite thing happen in physics one year and trust me I wasn't going to complain then. That's not to say I didn't go through my returned exam with a fine toothed comb just to make sure I didn't get gypped anywhere.

 

[nyanko]

No. I know it sounds harsh, but that would be 6 points you didn't earn. Even when I have been one point below a grade cutoff, I have never asked for points I didn't earn.....its very tempting I'll admit, but don't do it.

I absolutely agree with this. You should not ask for 6 points for no reason. I am a TA, and when people do this it just makes me annoyed and snarky with them, because so many people seem to have some sort of entitlement complex and that is exactly what you are showing when you do something like begging for points. The cutoff is what it is, and if you agree that everything was graded fairly (which you do implicitly by not asking for regrading on a specific exam/assignment), then you agree that you earn the grade you got.

 

[alliecat44]

👍👍👍

I absolutely agree with this. You should not ask for 6 points for no reason. I am a TA, and when people do this it just makes me annoyed and snarky with them, because so many people seem to have some sort of entitlement complex and that is exactly what you are showing when you do something like begging for points. The cutoff is what it is, and if you agree that everything was graded fairly (which you do implicitly by not asking for regrading on a specific exam/assignment), then you agree that you earn the grade you got.

 

[Thunderbunny]

Wow, strong opinions on this 🙂

I have a 79%, and 80% is a B, I should have clarified that it's not percentage points, just points. But I won't be asking her...I haven't been in this position before so wasn't sure if students did it often or not. Thanks for the responses though!

 

[HeartSong]

I have to disagree! I used to be totally like everyone else one here. Never talk to a professor about grades, take what you get, etc. But then I had a professor actually explain to me that they DON'T want students to be like that.

Now to clarify, do not "beg" for the extra points. Be professional and unemotional. Go in to discuss your grade, not to beg for a bump up in percentage for no reason. What a professor wants (if they are a good professor anyway) is to see that their sutdents care about their learning. If you don't even go talk to the professor, it sends the message that you don't really care so you'll just take whatever you get.

Start off briefly telling your situation, again don't get emotional about it just say that you are at the cutoff between two letter grades and would like to discuss any options there might be at this point. You could ask them how they felt about your performance in class. Ask them if they think there is an area where you could have done something differently to have earned a better grade. You could also ask if they felt that a letter grade you have now accuately reflects the performance you put into the class. Then you can ask if there's anything you can do at this point to make up those few point.

I had one professor that would never give an A to a student who didn't come see him during office hours to discuss grades. Students could make D and C on exams and still make a B in class or sometimes even an A if they made the effort to go talk to the professor throughout the semester. Although, he wouldn't have changed a grade if you had waited until after the semester was over to talk to him.

There was another time when I talked to a professor right before our last paper was due because I was worried about my grade. Again, he said that I didn't need to worry about my grade because my performance in class was taken into consideration as well.

Of course it depends on the size of the class, how much the professor pays attention to the students and if the professor is more like a TA than a professor - as in are they just there for a job or do they actually care about the students and their learning. You'd have a better chance if you talk to a professor before the class is over, but I wouldn't give up at least trying if you really want that higher grade.

 

[nyanko]

I had one professor that would never give an A to a student who didn't come see him during office hours to discuss grades. Students could make D and C on exams and still make a B in class or sometimes even an A if they made the effort to go talk to the professor throughout the semester. Although, he wouldn't have changed a grade if you had waited until after the semester was over to talk to him.

That's completely awful. Sorry, but that is extremely messed up and rewards the complete wrong behavior. What about the people who worked hard and got A's on the exams and didn't need to talk to him about grades because oh I don't know...they LEARNED THE MATERIAL WELL ENOUGH and FEEL THE GRADE IS WHAT THEY DESERVE?

There was another time when I talked to a professor right before our last paper was due because I was worried about my grade. Again, he said that I didn't need to worry about my grade because my performance in class was taken into consideration as well.

Something like that is usually written into the syllabus, though.

Of course it depends on the size of the class, how much the professor pays attention to the students and if the professor is more like a TA than a professor - as in are they just there for a job or do they actually care about the students and their learning. You'd have a better chance if you talk to a professor before the class is over, but I wouldn't give up at least trying if you really want that higher grade.

And I take major exception to this. How is it caring about your students and their learning if you reward them for trying to get what they don't earn? That is the exact opposite of reinforcing learning. It's one thing to go in and discuss a grade you got on an exam because you feel it isn't fair and there's some ambiguity in the grading. That's a fair thing to do. It's quite another thing to just ask for free points at the end of the class because you "did your best." That's a lot of what is wrong with many undergrad students now. If your best gets you a C, then that's what you get. A C is average and you can't expect to be above average at everything. Rampant grade inflation has reduced this message, but for many classes and professors it's still true, and personally I'm fine with that. I don't feel like it shows any less concern for your students and their learning in the least bit. In fact, I feel like it's the exact opposite.

 

[bunnity]

I tend to agree with nyanko on this - if I'm doing well in the class and don't have questions, why would I go to office hours? Especially because my science classes usually had 150-250 people in the class - can you imagine if every student went to office hours when they didn't have trouble? It would just cause confusion and the people that needed office hours for help would have their time cut short. The other thing is that as a student that works I would be very annoyed by the policy Heartsong mentioned. Many times my profs' office hours were during my work shifts. Now if I had really needed help with something I could have switched things up at work or made a special appointment, but why go through the hassle if I didn't need to?

 

[alliecat44]

I have to agree with nyanko, too. If there were no questionable points lost throughout the semester--i.e., nothing on an exam that you can go back and "argue," why would a professor give you a grade you didn't earn?

First time I learned this lesson was in my gifted/talented geometry class in ninth grade. Math has never been my strong point and I struggled and worked my a** off in that class. I stayed after school with the instructor three days a week for the entire second half of the year. For the final, I needed a 104% to get an A for the year (there were 5 extra credit points). Guess what? I got a 102%. B+ for me, even though I talked to him about it. Looking back, it was a great lesson to learn.

Also, my mother used to teach high school juniors/seniors. Took early retirement when parents would threaten to SUE her or GET HER FIRED for giving their precious schmumkymumkins a C on a paper or something because then they wouldn't get into the college of their choice. Sense of entitlement in this country? You'd better believe it.

In vet school so far, I've received TWO Bs in courses by a grand total of 5 points. And there are no pluses and minuses in our grading scale--so those are 3.0 instead of 4.0. If there were exam questions I felt were graded unfairly/incorrectly or subjectively, sure, I would have asked for an appointment to see about finding those extra points (and would have been fine if we couldn't agree). But assuming course points aren't being argued with, what you earn is what you get, IMHO. That's why we HAVE grade cutoffs.

 

[sumstorm]

I actually do encourage students to talk to profs even if they aren't having problems in a class, but not necessarily about grades. Discussing the material with a prof, and how it fits into other fields, or current research can make the material much easier to process and provide opportuntities. I learned more about fellowships and scholarships because I routinely visited my professors. Now, I did go to a small lib arts undergrad where class size maxed out at 40 students (with 1-8 TA's per class, not per section...not instructing, but assisting) per class in the sciences. I didn't visit professors to ask for extra points or such, but to enforce the relevancy of the material...I would think about how it applied to my interests, develop some questions and ideas, and discuss those. This also resulted in job offers and such later on. When I completed my honors research, I actually needed profs in other departments (including chemistry, physics, and mathematics) to review my methodology and such BEFORE I presented to the bio department staff, the school deans (across fields) and the external examiners. 8 years out of school and I am still in contact with most of my professors; our relationships have evolved. It is an excellent and valuable network...and a lot of professional life is about developing good networks. I am not suggesting a student should do it for grades or to influence the professor, but because it is part of developing a professional network. Also, if you talk to professors regularly, they often have a tendency of mentioning things that are valuable regarding opportunities, what they consider important in the course, future requirements, changes in department structure, etc. A solid relationship with professors is valuable....even profs not in a student's field of study.

 

[nyanko]

I actually do encourage students to talk to profs even if they aren't having problems in a class, but not necessarily about grades.

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't talk to professors. This is a completely separate thing. So uhh, yeah?

 

[sumstorm]

Nyanko, I wasn't referring to your post, but rather the posts where people said things like 'why would students visit profs during office hours if I don't have questions/problems with the material.' with the idea that those visits would create confusion and short change other students who do need help. Most profs I know aren't suffocated by students during office hours (well, except right before and after an exam!)

 

[nyanko]

I can only imagine how many people the professor I TA for has at his office hours - I have 10 or so at mine each week. 😉

And I'm just a lowly TA who doesn't care about how my students are doing, so imagine that...

 

[vnair2]

I think the moral of this story is that being a TA for a horde of grade obsessed prevet/premed students is a very bad idea and will drive you to insanity.

I always feel bad for my orgo TA. Either a) no body shows up for recitation or b) Its the day exams are given back and 50 students show up and complain about the grading for an hour.

 

[HeartSong]

That's completely awful. Sorry, but that is extremely messed up and rewards the complete wrong behavior. What about the people who worked hard and got A's on the exams and didn't need to talk to him about grades because oh I don't know...they LEARNED THE MATERIAL WELL ENOUGH and FEEL THE GRADE IS WHAT THEY DESERVE?

Umm, no one got A's on his exams. The average for his exams were usually low 50s. He was more interested in the effort you put in than how good of a rote memory you had. He knew that exams are a bad measurement of learning and effort so he graded based on more than rote memory. I've gotten lots of A's in classes where I learned less than I did in his class. I guess it depends on what you think classes are about. Memorizing material or actually getting involved with every aspect.

I think the whole idea of being graded solely on your ability to memorize material and regurgitate it onto paper is the biggest disservice that education has right now. He didn't design anything in his class after the mainstream education curriculum. I wish every class I had was like his. He had no rote memory questions on exam. He wrote a novel situation that we had never talked about and asked you to explain/ solve/ etc the problem using any and every aspect of the material you had learned up to that point. No multiple choice junk. True, honest learning. But since no one is used to learning like that, we all had difficulties doing it that way. He understood that so that is why he allowed you to get points for being interactive with him outside of class time.

 

[nyanko]

Umm, no one got A's on his exams. The average for his exams were usually low 50s. He was more interested in the effort you put in than how good of a rote memory you had. He knew that exams are a bad measurement of learning and effort so he graded based on more than rote memory. I've gotten lots of A's in classes where I learned less than I did in his class. I guess it depends on what you think classes are about. Memorizing material or actually getting involved with every aspect.

I think the whole idea of being graded solely on your ability to memorize material and regurgitate it onto paper is the biggest disservice that education has right now. He didn't design anything in his class after the mainstream education curriculum. I wish every class I had was like his. He had no rote memory questions on exam. He wrote a novel situation that we had never talked about and asked you to explain/ solve/ etc the problem using any and every aspect of the material you had learned up to that point. No multiple choice junk. True, honest learning. But since no one is used to learning like that, we all had difficulties doing it that way. He understood that so that is why he allowed you to get points for being interactive with him outside of class time.

Why are you making the assumption that doing well on an exam = memorizing material? There are plenty of ways to make exams challenging and engaging without memorization - problem based exams are always the best type as they require reasoning and use of the information rather than memorization. Just because you're in vet school and your grades revolve around memorization and regurgitation (which I know is the case for most non-PBL classes at most schools, and agree that it sucks - though I can see the necessity for it) doesn't mean that all exams in all classes only require such.

Professors can make questions not based on rote memorization without making them so difficult that nobody can do them, though. And multiple choice doesn't even have to be based on memorization! The class I am working for has 500 students, 4 TAs and 2 graders. His exam format is 8-10 questions, about half multiple choice and half free answer, but all require stepwise problem solving or a deep understanding of the material. It's Genetics, and the types of questions are questions that require critical thought and analysis (ie: here's a gel, here's some information, analyze the results). It's quite easy to work these into pretty much any class. Exams are not always a bad measurement of learning - it just depends on the creativity of the person making them and the types of questions they go with.

PS: Every class in graduate school that I've taken that has exams has those types of exams that you described. People get A's on them, too. That's why curves exist. Do you mean to tell me that the people at the high end of the curve, who "got" the material the best, presumably, didn't get A's unless they went and talked to him? That's ridiculous.

eta: And none of that even has anything to do with the OP's situation, either.

 

[flyhi]

Is this in essence PBL? Regardless, I believe you would learn (retain) so much more using this type of testing. I love/hate oral exams because the preparation is so varied, but in the end I do think it allows for much more retention of the material and i think most agree that if you can teach it (speak it), you truly get it. I can understand why those going to Western would be very apprehensive since it is such a different teaching style than the norm, but I think it would be so enlightening to know that you not only understand the information, but can apply it.....which is the ultimate goal for us all.

I was a slightly nervous about the UK teaching style because it seems to involve a lot of essays, practicals and oral exams, but i am actually looking forward to the challenge and believe it will be a better system for me than multiple choice/scantron type of exams.

Edit: Nyanko and i posted at the same time...this was in response to HeartSong

 

[Trilt]

So far, the one time I have asked to be bumped up a grade in college, the lecturer was more than happy to do so. I had the highest grade in the class, one of only two As (out of twenty people,) and I was ~.3 away from the border between A- and an A. The prof knew that I had put a lot of effort into the class and I was one of the few people who showed up and listened... it was just a toughly graded class, especially surprisingly so since it was in communications. 😵 I think he actually ended up putting a point or two curve on the class average because of my questioning.

However, one comment at Nyanko. A C is not average... if so, dropping below a 2.0 (C) would not be a reason for academic probation. A large amount of the college would have less than a 2.0. People can complain about grade inflation, or they can just acknowledge that *gasp* standards of grading have evolved in the past years, and plan accordingly. Profs or TAs that justify crap with the old "C is average" adage are only doing their students a disservice.

 

[Nexx]

In vet school so far, I've received TWO Bs in courses by a grand total of 5 points. And there are no pluses and minuses in our grading scale--so those are 3.0 instead of 4.0. If there were exam questions I felt were graded unfairly/incorrectly or subjectively, sure, I would have asked for an appointment to see about finding those extra points (and would have been fine if we couldn't agree). But assuming course points aren't being argued with, what you earn is what you get, IMHO. That's why we HAVE grade cutoffs.

This frustrates me to no end... every semester! All of my grades have been 2-3% away from the next grade up... and with 50% of our grade being our finals that relates to 1-2 questions on the exam 😳 -- I think last semester I missed out on an A due to 2 multi-choice questions and a questionable aspect of our prac exam (had to draw blood from a sheep pass/fail style which I did get blood just 'not enough' boo!)

In the end all I have is myself to blame 🙂

Look, talking to professors is fine and should be encouraged. However as most people here have stated it shouldn't be done to get a bump up in grades. Legitimate concerns about how your exams/papers/projects were marked can be brought up and should be brought up -- but at the time when the assignment is returned to you. How much 'work' you put into a class frankly should have nothing to do with your final grade.

When we go out into the real world we are going to get paid and keep clients by getting results. We won't be able to tell (or keep) a client "I'm sorry, I worked really hard during surgery on your dog today but well I only took out part of that cancerous lesion because I couldn't remember from my studies which bits to take out, that'll be $800 please" (yeah crap metaphor but you get my point!).

 

[HeartSong]

So far, the one time I have asked to be bumped up a grade in college, the lecturer was more than happy to do so. I had the highest grade in the class, one of only two As (out of twenty people,) and I was ~.3 away from the border between A- and an A. The prof knew that I had put a lot of effort into the class and I was one of the few people who showed up and listened... it was just a toughly graded class, especially surprisingly so since it was in communications. 😵 I think he actually ended up putting a point or two curve on the class average because of my questioning.

However, one comment at Nyanko. A C is not average... if so, dropping below a 2.0 (C) would not be a reason for academic probation. A large amount of the college would have less than a 2.0. People can complain about grade inflation, or they can just acknowledge that *gasp* standards of grading have evolved in the past years, and plan accordingly. Profs or TAs that justify crap with the old "C is average" adage are only doing their students a disservice.

👍 I agree completely. I would even go so far as to say that grading has evolved enough that it needs to be changed completely. I hate when I have an 81% in one class and an 89% in another class and they are both recorded as the same grade. In most classes there is a huge different in 8-10% points.

When we go out into the real world we are going to get paid and keep clients by getting results. We won't be able to tell (or keep) a client "I'm sorry, I worked really hard during surgery on your dog today but well I only took out part of that cancerous lesion because I couldn't remember from my studies which bits to take out, that'll be $800 please" (yeah crap metaphor but you get my point!).

And at the same time you won't keep many clients by saying, "yeah, I remember how to treat that but I don't feel like doing it because it's more work than I want to do. How about if I just describe the procedure to you instead?" Hard work without the know how is useless. Know how without the hard work is useless. Why be graded on one thing alone? If you feel like you are being graded on one area alone when the other area is completely ignored, why not bring that up to the professor?

 

[nyanko]

However, one comment at Nyanko. A C is not average... if so, dropping below a 2.0 (C) would not be a reason for academic probation. A large amount of the college would have less than a 2.0.

If a middle C is average, then by the distribution a large number of people would get a C, with some B's and D's and fewer A's and F's. I think that's pretty much what happens in most classes without grade inflation. I know that everyone I have seen who curves ends up setting the mean at a C or C+ (if they're nice).

Honest question....why not only keep people who can maintain a GPA of average or above in college classes? I wouldn't see a problem with that, personally. Theoretically if you're there, you're there because you are interested in and capable at something, so you should be able to do better than average (B or A) in whatever you're interested in, even if you can only do average (C) in other classes, or even below average (D/F) in one or two. I don't think that a C being average is inconsistent with that mark for academic probation at all, honestly.

 

[StillDreaming]

It depends, if you are talking to her about getting points fro certain reasons, then yes. Like if you take in a test and 'argue' tht the way you chose to solve a problem deserves this many points and so on so forth, but just asking for 6 points might not get you anywhere, and definitely won't help you in vet school because no professor at that level will just give you points.

Try looking over your tests and homework and see if there is anything you can argue. might be worth a try...

 

[Trilt]

If a middle C is average, then by the distribution a large number of people would get a C, with some B's and D's and fewer A's and F's. I think that's pretty much what happens in most classes without grade inflation. I know that everyone I have seen who curves ends up setting the mean at a C or C+ (if they're nice).

Honest question....why not only keep people who can maintain a GPA of average or above in college classes? I wouldn't see a problem with that, personally. Theoretically if you're there, you're there because you are interested in and capable at something, so you should be able to do better than average (B or A) in whatever you're interested in, even if you can only do average (C) in other classes, or even below average (D/F) in one or two. I don't think that a C being average is inconsistent with that mark for academic probation at all, honestly.

...because that is what we currently do? And since we cull the students who fall below what the "average" is called, the average number is rising. If you cut out the low scorers, average grades are statistically going to be higher...

 

[vnair2]

I kind of agree with Trilt on this one. I don't see the point in complaining about grade inflation. Grading has evolved over the years, but so has the perception of various grades.

No person I have ever talked to sees a C as an acceptable average grade. More people are given Bs and As in grading these days, but at the same time, a B is no longer viewed as an above average solid grade. These days an A means you are good, a B means you are average, and a C means you are never getting into graduate school.

 

[DVMorBust]

No person I have ever talked to sees a C as an acceptable average grade. More people are given Bs and As in grading these days, but at the same time, a B is no longer viewed as an above average solid grade. These days an A means you are good, a B means you are average, and a C means you are never getting into graduate school.

OK...but again, why should average students, or below average students, be the ones to get into graduate school?

If someone's average across the board in everything is a C, it's different than showing aptitude in only specific areas - that's why the cumulative GPA exists. There's a huge difference between a class's C being average and an overall 2.0 being average. Students under an overall 2.0 get put on probation, and kicked out, so yes, the average GPA of students can be higher while within any given lecture there's a higher percentage of Cs than anything else.

Maybe I'm just used to professors who take the distribution, its average, and assign grades based on standard deviations. How can a C not be the average when the majority of students in a class get it?

 

[Trilt]

OK...but again, why should average students, or below average students, be the ones to get into graduate school?

If someone's average across the board in everything is a C, it's different than showing aptitude in only specific areas - that's why the cumulative GPA exists. There's a huge difference between a class's C being average and an overall 2.0 being average. Students under an overall 2.0 get put on probation, and kicked out, so yes, the average GPA of students can be higher while within any given lecture there's a higher percentage of Cs than anything else.

Maybe I'm just used to professors who take the distribution, its average, and assign grades based on standard deviations. How can a C not be the average when the majority of students in a class get it?

My organic chemistry class this semester is the first where I've seen a majority of students make Cs. (Class average was a 72.3, or something like that.) Generally the majority of my classes receives a B, or somewhat equal Bs and Cs.

Grade distribution from my first introductory biology course:
Letter - # of People - Percentage
A - 55 - 23%
B - 101 - 42%
C - 60 - 25%
D - 13 - 5%
F - 8 - 3%

(I actually found this a really easy class, so I think the distribution is a little higher than typical.)

 

[sumstorm]

At my undergrad, classes were graded in two styles; distribution where C was average and percentages where the entire class might get A's or might get F's.

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages.

My concern, as a student, is that the more students who have A's due to unjustified bump-ups reduces the value of the A that I obtained without an unjustified bump-up. This is true in either system. My other concern is that neither system accounts for vast differences in difficulties in classes within a college or between colleges. I think the latter issue is where people are concerned about grade inflation. If I attend a harder school that doesn't practice grade inflation (1/10 the class fails, 1 person has an A-....or no one has an A) and another student attends a school that is easier and does inflate grades (no one fails, half the class gets A's) when we apply to schools, there is a likelihood that I will be cut from the application pool far earlier in the process.

I also agree that if you cut out the bottom people in a class, over time, the competition will beocme fiercer. That is why, in my opinion, entry level classes may be open to anyone, while upper levels require proof of ability. I also think numbers play a huge part. If there are 4 people in the class (which was true of upper levels at my school), a curve doesn't work well. Even if every student is exceptional, someone will be culled. If there are 400 in the class, there is a higher liklihood that a curve will be reasonable and reflect a range of scores.

 

[vnair2]

My organic chemistry class this semester is the first where I've seen a majority of students make Cs. (Class average was a 72.3, or something like that.) Generally the majority of my classes receives a B, or somewhat equal Bs and Cs.

But most students don't get Cs, at least in the classes i have taken. The vast majority of my undergraduate classes where curved to a B-/B (depending on how nice the professor was). I think the real problem is that classes are curved at all. Students should not be judged on their ability to just slightly outshine the average, but on their ability to actually learn and understand the material. Personally I blame professors who either make exams far too easy or confuse a 50 average with a well written and challenging exam.

edit: in response to Sumstorm. I agree. With or without grade inflation though there is always going to be fluctuation in the difficulty of various classes and various universities that obscure the true value of any grade. Some classes will always be harder and some will always be easier (*cough* communications *cough*) which is why admissions decisions are usually made be committees of people and not super adcom robot computers.

 

[sumstorm]

But most students don't get Cs, at least in the classes i have taken. The vast majority of my undergraduate classes where curved to a B-/B (depending on how nice the professor was). I think the real problem is that classes are curved at all. Students should not be judged on their ability to just slightly outshine the average, but on their ability to actually learn and understand the material. Personally I blame professors who either make exams far too easy or confuse a 50 average with a well written and challenging exam.

edit: in response to Sumstorm. I agree. With or without grade inflation there is always going to be fluctuation in the difficulty of various classes and various universities that obscure the true value of any grade though.

Yeah, see, where I attended, if a class was curved, it was always curved so that the majority of students obtained a C. So if we went into a GPA comparison, I would probably be hurting.

 

[vnair2]

I think we need to consolidate this topic with "can a good GPA make up for less vet experience". Im sick of going back and forth. 🙂

 

[vnair2]

My professor just sent the email below to my orgo class. It is definitely related to this topic and personally I found it both sad and hilarious, so enjoy.

This generic answer will, I hope, cover most of the (many) questions/pleas/demands I am receiving by email.

1. No, once the exams are done, there is no way to add points to increase your grade. The grade comes from the exams though the grading processes (2) that have been posted since December.

2. If you took the final, you cannot take a makeup, no matter how much you want to. If I let someone who "had a bad day" for whatever reason do this, I have to open that option to everyone.

3. No, I am not going to figure out your grade differently from everyone else's (see item 2 above).

4. Yes, you can request a regrade. No, it doesn't matter if "the TA says I am right." Hint: Don't be aggressive and demanding. That attitude is counter-productive. If points are there, you'll get them. If they are not, you won't. Submit the request through your TA, if possible, directly to me if not. Another hint: don't "fish" – it won't work and it annoys the regrader. I will not look at any exam until the answers have been posted three days.

poor professor.

 

[nyanko]

OK...but again, why should average students, or below average students, be the ones to get into graduate school?

If someone's average across the board in everything is a C, it's different than showing aptitude in only specific areas - that's why the cumulative GPA exists. There's a huge difference between a class's C being average and an overall 2.0 being average. Students under an overall 2.0 get put on probation, and kicked out, so yes, the average GPA of students can be higher while within any given lecture there's a higher percentage of Cs than anything else.

Maybe I'm just used to professors who take the distribution, its average, and assign grades based on standard deviations. How can a C not be the average when the majority of students in a class get it?

This is what I was trying to say, but more concise and less rambly. The average cumulative GPA can still be well above 2.0 even if every class is curved to a strict Gaussian distribution with the mean being a C. People take more than one class in more than one subject, you know! Additionally, most of the way I've seen it done is that there will be a points system, 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B, etc, unless the mean is below low 70s, then it is set to a C (or C+ if the prof is generous, again). So if the mean is above 70-75 then the distribution is moved to the right and that's okay, too. In that case we set the bar at certain levels a priori and assume that anyone that can get above a threshold deserves to be in that percentile, even if the class as a whole is all brilliant, or the exams are easy or whatever.

I also agree with sumstorm that lower division classes and upper division classes can sort of be held to different standards. Not everybody is cut out to be an engineering major, or a chemistry major, or hell even for university at all, and a bunch of people who are an entire standard deviation below the mean even with a lot of work passing those lower division classes is only doing a disservice to everyone involved.

 

[VAgirl]

Yeah, see, where I attended, if a class was curved, it was always curved so that the majority of students obtained a C. So if we went into a GPA comparison, I would probably be hurting.

This is ridiculous to me. People should be given the grade they earned. If the professor wished to aim for a standard distribution curve, s/he needs to write a harder test, not rig the grades after the fact. How does he know that people who got a 98 (for example) on a easy exam might not do the same on a harder exam? No way to tell.

FWIW, I've never been at a place where grades were curved down, though.

 

[sumstorm]

I had an intro bio that was curved down. 80-90 became a C range because the vast majority of the class scored very high. Only A's were 100%, 90-96 were B's, 96-99 A-. It was painful, and many students were VERY upset, but we actually voted on percentiles vs curves at the beginning of the course, so the prof pointed out that we built the bed.

 

[vnair2]

I had an intro bio that was curved down. 80-90 became a C range because the vast majority of the class scored very high. Only A's were 100%, 90-96 were B's, 96-99 A-. It was painful, and many students were VERY upset, but we actually voted on percentiles vs curves at the beginning of the course, so the prof pointed out that we built the bed.

I dont care what "bed" he claims you built, that professor is a dick. I would be uber ticked off if any of my professors tried to do something like that.

 

[sumstorm]

That is actually how curving is suppose to work. He is an excellent professor. He also announced that for future tests, anyone getting higher than a 95% would have an A. He did not opt to make an impossible test (it was population biology, not the hardest topic, especially at intro level...and he told us that at the beginning of class.) He only did a curve because there was a big shove from the student population. It wasn't his intent...and he was upfront that if it was curved, it would be done so whether the curve was up or down. So why does that make him so horrendous in your mind? Part of going to college is realizing that decisions have consequences. I also decided from that day on that democracy wasn't part of my education on group projects.

 

[DVMorBust]

I really doubt there was much of a normal distribution to go off of, though. If averages are that high, and so many people are getting in the upper 90s, well...it certainly wouldn't follow any curve I've seen, since it would be totally skewed.

 

[sumstorm]

yes, it isn't a bell curve, but it still has distributions.

 

[Willowhand]

While we're all ranting about how frustratingly subjective (and sometimes seemingly arbitrary) grading systems are, I have one story that annoys me beyond the usual. Last semester I had a professor who was one of those who insists on having a nice bell curve for his grades, only he "rigged" it in a way I've never heard before: for the higher grades he followed the old 90+ is an A, 80+ is a B thing, with +/-, but for the people who got less than an 80 he shifted the corresponding letter grades upward. This drove me a little crazy since for a while I had an 89 and was getting a B+, but there were others in the class who were getting a 75 and still had a B. This didn't make any sense to me, so I went to the professor and respectfully asked if he would explain how the grading scheme worked. He got offended and basically told me that that is how he kept a good average for the class and that I shouldn't be so nosy about other people's grades in the first place. 😕