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So plastics dropped from 249 to low 240s? Doesn't seem accurate...what do you think?

244 and 249 for the means? I don't know, seems pretty accurate. I do believe they have the scores for every resident. So the data should be accurate.

The competitiveness tab will give you SD and some of the other data too.
 
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FIREitUP

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Depends where you work. Starting salary is only that low if you want work in the heart of a big city, like NYC or LA. Do you think it's much different for other specialties in terms of starting salary and the job market? No. Most starting is ~$200k and doubles to ~$400k at 3-5 years. $400k is about the average. And if you do retina, you start and average much higher. If you really want more info, go search for it in the ophtho forum. This has been discussed many times.



The class that just matched took it in 2012 and the national avg was 224. The average in the 2013 class, who will be applying in a few months, is 227 according to all my friends took it that year. I remember seeing the stats provided in First Aid, and they were usually off. I don't know where they get them. Regardless, a 227 vs 228 is basically the same thing anyway. This is why I said you need to figure out the mean and standard deviation for past years to get an idea what type of percentile you need on your test. And of course, ppl always forget these are averages for getting in and as long as you are near it you'll be fine. Derms last average was 244 but tons of ppl with 230s got in. You mainly don't want to get screened out and then after that the rest of your app matters a lot more. Ppl on SDN put too much weight on Step 1 scores. If you have 250s, that'll help you a lot. But if you have a 244 vs 239, no one cares.

i know, i've read it ad nauseam. searching in the northeast for jobs as a new ophthalmologist is humbling, to say the least. i noticed you mentioned surgical retina. that's a great field but you forego any modicum of reasonable lifestyle that makes ophtho so attractive to many. just wanted to post this so people are informed.
 

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i know, i've read it ad nauseam. searching in the northeast for jobs as a new ophthalmologist is humbling, to say the least. i noticed you mentioned surgical retina. that's a great field but you forego any modicum of reasonable lifestyle that makes ophtho so attractive to many. just wanted to post this so people are informed.

True enough. I don't want to do retina or work in the northeast so I'm looking forward to my future job opportunities and lifestyle haha.

200 starting and 400 3-5 years later with a good lifestyle in area I want to live sounds awesome to me
 
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244 and 249 for the means? I don't know, seems pretty accurate. I do believe they have the scores for every resident. So the data should be accurate.

The competitiveness tab will give you SD and some of the other data too.

I don't see how PRS dropped 5 pts. Either charting outcomes is wrong or that site is.
 

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more power to you! ophtho as a field is so much better away from the coasts.

That's all fields though not just ophtho. Living on east coast longterm sucks period. Paying more for less space and older buildings in overcrowded areas. Forget that.
 

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i think charting the outcomes is the median while the aamc is the mean.

with regards to everything being worse on the coasts, that's definitely true. but for some reason ophtho is hit even harder on the coasts. unfortunately, some of us are bound to the coasts by family so it's not really feasible for us to leave.
 

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Hmm, why? Charting the Outcomes from 2011 and this is from 2012-2013.

Yea but the 244 is from 2013. You think PRS avg Step 1 dropped 5 points over 1 year and thus getting less competitive?
 

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I don't see how PRS dropped 5 pts. Either charting outcomes is wrong or that site is.

couldn't that be due to the small number of slots? all it takes is a few outliers to pull the mean down.

either way, 244 or 249 means are basically 85th percentile anyways.
 

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Someone showed me the plastics master matching list for this year. While the stats were self-reported, there was a guy with like a 220-230 step 1 that got into plastics. If there are more outliers like that, then a one-year drop isn't completely unfathomable.
 
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Someone showed me the plastics master matching list for this year. While the stats were self-reported, there was a guy with like a 220-230 step 1 that got into plastics. If there are more outliers like that, then a one-year drop isn't completely unfathomable.

It's not a mystery, the data is all given to us. This data isn't self-reported either.

Mean = 244
SD =10.3

Also, there were much more people who didn't match with > 261 than those that did match with 261+. That says something, as most people aren't applying to plastics as a back up. As most will tell you, the #'s are used as a means to filter applicants. Once you pass the filter, scoring a 245 or a 265 isn't a huge deal. It's not useful to analyze these #'s in a vacuum.


 
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couldn't that be due to the small number of slots? all it takes is a few outliers to pull the mean down.

either way, 244 or 249 means are basically 85th percentile anyways.
The USMLE does not release percentiles. The 2 digit score is not a percentile.
 

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It's not a mystery, the data is all given to us. This data isn't self-reported either.

Mean = 244
SD =10.3

Also, there were much more people who didn't match with > 261 than those that did match with 261+. That says something, as most people aren't applying to plastics as a back up. As most will tell you, the #'s are used as a means to filter applicants. Once you pass the filter, scoring a 245 or a 265 isn't a huge deal. It's not useful to analyze these #'s in a vacuum.




Assuming that the benchmark score is 245. If there are two guys,one with 250 and other with 265. Do you mean to say that both of them will be equal ??
 
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Assuming that the benchmark score is 245. If there are two guys,one with 250 and other with 265. Do you mean to say that both of them will be equal ??

Yes.

And they are NEVER equal. An application has much more than a Step 1 score.

Go talk to a PD. Step 1 is like an on/off switch after a point.
 

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It's not a mystery, the data is all given to us. This data isn't self-reported either.

Mean = 244
SD =10.3

Also, there were much more people who didn't match with > 261 than those that did match with 261+. That says something, as most people aren't applying to plastics as a back up. As most will tell you, the #'s are used as a means to filter applicants. Once you pass the filter, scoring a 245 or a 265 isn't a huge deal. It's not useful to analyze these #'s in a vacuum.



So I didn't read most of the thread and I almost had an acute MI when I thought this was the latest Step 1 score distribution for ALL U.S. seniors.

Welp. Serves me right for not reading the title.
 

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Yes.

And they are NEVER equal. An application has much more than a Step 1 score.

Go talk to a PD. Step 1 is like an on/off switch after a point.

Are you serious ? How can a dude with a score in 240s can be equal to a dude who is in 260s......This is mind boggling.
 
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Are you serious ? How can a dude with a score in 240s can be equal to a dude who is in 260s......This is mind boggling.


Because in real life the person is more important than a number. If the people liked the 240 guys more than the 260 guys you think the resident directors are thinking the 240 guy is too stupid to join? Lol no way. Residency apps at that level require a lot more than just step 1 score.
 
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Are you serious ? How can a dude with a score in 240s can be equal to a dude who is in 260s......This is mind boggling.

It's not and I dont think that's what he meant. Just that there are diminishing returns after a certain point (everyone will disagree where, I'd set it at 255) and when youre getting at 270+ you're treading into rainman idiot savant fears. And that personality, connections are going to play a bigger role at that point, where a 270 is not going to be accepted over 260.
 
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It's not and I dont think that's what he meant. Just that there are diminishing returns after a certain point (everyone will disagree where, I'd set it at 255) and when youre getting at 270+ you're treading into rainman idiot savant fears. And that personality, connections are going to play a bigger role at that point, where a 270 is not going to be accepted over 260.


Someone in my year got a 283 with Aspergers. He was nutsss
 

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Assuming that the benchmark score is 245. If there are two guys,one with 250 and other with 265. Do you mean to say that both of them will be equal ??

It's specialty and residency program dependent. Hospital for Special Surgery in ortho, for example, doesn't interview anyone who scored below 255 on step 1, while the majority of ortho programs don't seem to differentiate above 245.

A good rule of thumb though is that score variation above 250-ish is regarded as negligible or due to chance by many PD's.
 
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Prince090

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Because in real life the person is more important than a number. If the people liked the 240 guys more than the 260 guys you think the resident directors are thinking the 240 guy is too stupid to join? Lol no way. Residency apps at that level require a lot more than just step 1 score.


"lot more."..... and what are these ?

Understandably, a guy with a 260 clearly has more knowledge or else his score would have been less.

High score= more knowledge = more knowledge inevitably makes you a good doctor ..... Ain't I right
 
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"lot more."..... and what are these ?

Understandably, a guy with a 260 clearly has more knowledge or else his score would have been less.

High score= more knowledge = more knowledge inevitably makes you a good doctor ..... Ain't I right


Are you being serious or joking?
 
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Prince090

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Are you being serious or joking?

Of course serious .....

Please tell me what do you mean when you say "lot more " . Are you talking about research , clinical experience , extra curriculars and stuff like that or am I missing something ?
 
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High score= more knowledge = more knowledge inevitably makes you a good doctor ..... Ain't I right

No, you are wrong. More knowledge doesn't inevitably make you a better physician.

Being a doctor is about taking care of patients, not taking multiple choice exams. Hence, the whole idea that after a point there are diminishing returns on Step 1 scores.
 
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Of course serious .....

Please tell me what do you mean when you say "lot more " . Are you talking about research , clinical experience , extra curriculars and stuff like that or am I missing something ?

In the end, they want to know how good of a physician you will be. This involves taking care of patients in most fields. So whatever tools they can use to predict this, they will.

You seem to think:
240: good doctor
250: great doctor
260: exceptional doctor
270: beyond exceptional doctor
280: #1 doctor on earth

Prince090, where are you in your training? M1? M2?
 
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Prince090

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No, you are wrong. More knowledge doesn't inevitably make you a better physician.

Being a doctor is about taking care of patients, not taking multiple choice exams. Hence, the whole idea that after a point there are diminishing returns on Step 1 scores.

How can more knowledge be bad or have diminishing returns .. We are not discussing economics. This is the first time I am reading or hearing these views.

And some of the posts on this thread imply that having a high score means you are suffering from some type of mental illness. That is offensive
 

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In the end, they want to know how good of a physician you will be. This involves taking care of patients in most fields. So whatever tools they can use to predict this, they will.

You seem to think:
240: good doctor
250: great doctor
260: exceptional doctor
270: beyond exceptional doctor
280: #1 doctor on earth

Prince090, where are you in your training? M1? M2?

M1
 
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How can more knowledge be bad or have diminishing returns .. We are not discussing economics. This is the first time I am reading or hearing these views.

And some of the posts on this thread imply that having a high score means you are suffering from some type of mental illness. That is offensive

Haha.

It's not more knowledge hurting you. It's that knowledge is a single skill of a physician. There are many skills to being a physician. The idea that a person can score a 250 (or whatever score we want to say), tells the program director that this person has the aptitude to succeed. That's what I meant by "On/off switch". They don't then say, "Oh, a 260 REALLY has the aptitude." You'll understand this better with time.

It would be like asking me if being strong is good for a QB. Then some how not comprehending why the strongest humans on earth aren't the best QBs. It's because playing QB requires a variety of skills, and strength is only one.

I didn't imply anything is wrong with higher scorers. Although we do have a few geniuses in our class that are socially awkward to say the least.
 
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Prince090

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That makes sense.

With some more experience, you'll understand what everyone is saying.

I going to have a chat with one of the university professors about this theory.

Last time I read about the theory of " diminishing returns " was when I did a course in economics during my high school.
 

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Haha.

It's not more knowledge hurting you. It's that knowledge is a single skill of a physician. There are many skills to being a physician.

It would be like asking me if being strong is good for a QB. Then some how not comprehending why the strongest humans on earth aren't the best QBs. It's because playing QB requires a variety of skills, and strength is only one.

I didn't imply anything is wrong with higher scorers. Although we do have a few geniuses in our class that are socially awkward to say the least.

But a dude with high scores can also have good patient skills. It is possible. Not everyone with a high score is a nut job.
 
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I going to have a chat with one of the university professors about this theory.

Last time I read about the theory of " diminishing returns " was when I did a course in economics during my high school.

That's not true. It applies in everything.

Exercise? There's a point of doing cardiovascular exercise, where you've peaked and you will get diminishing returns. Let's say you exercise 5 hrs a week, is 10 hrs a week double the results? Is 15 hrs a week triple the results? There's a point where you don't get the same returns.

Studying? The same applies. I'm sure you can find corollaries in just about every activity you participate in.
 
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But a dude with high scores can also have good patient skills. It is possible. Not everyone with a high score is a nut job.

In real medicine everything you treat/do has some sort of protocol or direction to follow. It's not like you are doing something ground breaking. Especially in your residency/internship year. It doesn't take a genius to figure out lab results or how to diagnose something too. A person with a 240 isn't going to treat a patient differently than a person with a 260.
 

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That's not true. It applies in everything.

Exercise? There's a point of doing cardiovascular exercise, where you've peaked and you will get diminishing returns. Let's say you exercise 5 hrs a week, is 10 hrs a week double the results? Is 15 hrs a week triple the results? There's a point where you don't get the same returns.

Studying? The same applies. I'm sure you can find corollaries in just about every activity you participate in.

Yeah. I know but my point was about "knowledge".

I mean how can knowledge have diminishing returns. Knowledge can only benefit you and more you have it ,the better.
 
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Yeah. I know but my point was about "knowledge".

I mean how can knowledge have diminishing returns. Knowledge can only benefit you and more you have it ,the better.


The applicants with scores from 251-260 were more successful than the applicants with 261+, by far.

Which likely means the lower scores had a more rounded application, and the higher scorers may have relied too heavily on their 261+.

Plastics matching data.

 

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The applicants with scores from 251-260 were more successful than the applicants with 261+, by far.

Which likely means the lower scores had a more rounded application, and the higher scorers may have relied too heavily on their 261+.

Plastics matching data.



Why would anyone reject a guy with scores in 260s(without a solid reason)......... That is crazy.

The most surprising part is that people in 241-250 range have a significantly higher matching rate compared to guys with 260+. Something is not right.
 
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Why would anyone reject a guy with scores in 260s......... That is crazy.

The most surprising part is that people in 241-250 range have a significantly higher matching rate compared to guys with 260+. Something is not right.

Like I said, get some more experience and it will make sense.

Right now you think being a physician is about taking multiple choice exams.

You will see that there's a lot of dealing with people (this is expressed in clinical evals, ability to find mentors, getting good letters of rec, dealing with patients). There's also research and the general ability to get things done (clinically or research, whatever). He has tons of research connections and those attendings love him to (because of the great attitude/hunger). These skills and traits aren't always associated with multiple choice exams.

Good luck.

Edit: One surgeon I know fits this bill perfectly. The smartest residents may beat him on a multiple choice exam, but he gets things done. His patients love him, he always leads in cases, he's hungry, the entire staff likes him (from the attendings to the secretary). If you're going to war, you want this guy on your side. Step 1 can't test this stuff.
 
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Why would anyone reject a guy with scores in 260s(without a solid reason)......... That is crazy.

The most surprising part is that people in 241-250 range have a significantly higher matching rate compared to guys with 260+. Something is not right.


Research, personality.. So many things come into play. How do you think a doctor practicing for 10 years would do on step 1?
 

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Like I said, get some more experience and it will make sense.

Right now you think being a physician is about taking multiple choice exams.

You will see that there's a lot of dealing with people (this is expressed in clinical evals, ability to find mentors, getting good letters of rec, dealing with patients). There's also research and the general ability to get things done (clinically or research, whatever). These skills and traits aren't always associated with multiple choice exams.

Good luck.

Thanks for enlightening me on this. Looks like I have learn many things and reconsider few things.
 
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