Ophtho Chances in 2024?

[anonymus55]

Hello!

M3 here trying to gage competitiveness of my application. Home PD feels confident about me matching, school advisor not so much. Interested in matching somewhere in the south, specifically FL.

Step 1: Pass
Step 2: 255-265

School: Low-tier in Midwest
Ophtho Department: Middle-tier
Research: 4 pubs, 2 posters, presentation at AAO and 3 abstracts
Pre-Clinical: Mixes of Hs and Ps (Probably average for class)
Clinical: All honors except Neuro/OB which were HPs
LORs: Should be solid, 2 from well-known faculty and 1 from home PD
ECs: Run of the mill leadership and volunteering. Nothing that I would say stands out. Significant prior work history in healthcare, somewhat interesting story, non-Trad.

Best case scenario 1st quartile, worst case scenario 2nd quartile. I will most likely not be AOA because there is a lot of weight put on preclinical grades.
Thank you!

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[i-doctor]

You are competitive for ophtho but not a guarantee. 50/50 chance. And likely not at a top tier program. You need to do at least 2 away rotations at attainable places that you are interested in (maybe places like Univ of South Florida). But be happy to match anywhere. You are in the mix of tough competition.
And make your home department think you really want to match there. Don’t tell a single person there you want to live in the South.

 

[anonymus55]

You are competitive for ophtho but not a guarantee. 50/50 chance. And likely not at a top tier program. You need to do at least 2 away rotations at attainable places that you are interested in (maybe places like Univ of South Florida). But be happy to match anywhere. You are in the mix of tough competition.
And make your home department think you really want to match there. Don’t tell a single person there you want to live in the South.

Thank you for the honest feedback, from your experience which programs in the south or FL are less competitive, yet offer good training? Any insights on the Georgia or SC programs? What about UF- Jacksonville, Larkin, or the new Broward health programs? Thanks!

 

[i-doctor]

I am not an expert, but I believe that UF-Jacksonville, Medical College of Georgia, and both programs in S. Carolina are possibly attainable and have decent training.

Larkin I believe is a program that primarily takes D.O’s., and I know nothing about Broward.

I think a lot of people gun for Florida, so to be realistic maybe you should concentrate on Georgia or, even better, S. Carolina, and do at least one away rotation there.

Google search the current residents’ profiles in these programs. Most list their residents’ med schools in their bio, and maybe you can get a feel how competitive they are by what med schools their residents went to.

Too bad there are no programs in Savannah, my favorite city in the South. That would be a blast.

 

[MstaKing10]

Thank you for the honest feedback, from your experience which programs in the south or FL are less competitive, yet offer good training? Any insights on the Georgia or SC programs? What about UF- Jacksonville, Larkin, or the new Broward health programs? Thanks!

Broward health program is brand new. Unless desperate for South FL don't go there. U FL Jacksonville has had a lot of issues over the years and is also a bottom choice. U South FL is excellent, as is UF Gainesville. Larkin falls in the don't go there catagory and as others have said, is mostly a DO program. Obviously Bascom is Bascom. Georgia has MCG wich is excellent. Alabamama has University program in Jackson which is decent but has a top tier program at UAB (Birmingham). A real gem. Lousiana has Tulane, LSU-New Orleans which are both excellent and less desirable but reasonable alternative at LSU Shreveport. Why don't you apply to all these programs and get back to us after the interview for a rank list? That would be more useful to you honestly. North/South Carolina and Tennessee have some great programs as does Kentucky. Apply broadly and try not to limit yourself. 3 years flies by quickly.

 

[i-doctor]

I agree with concentrating on the Carolinas, Tennessee, and Kentucky. Great programs, possibly more attainable than Florida.

 

[anonymus55]

Broward health program is brand new. Unless desperate for South FL don't go there. U FL Jacksonville has had a lot of issues over the years and is also a bottom choice. U South FL is excellent, as is UF Gainesville. Larkin falls in the don't go there catagory and as others have said, is mostly a DO program. Obviously Bascom is Bascom. Georgia has MCG wich is excellent. Alabamama has University program in Jackson which is decent but has a top tier program at UAB (Birmingham). A real gem. Lousiana has Tulane, LSU-New Orleans which are both excellent and less desirable but reasonable alternative at LSU Shreveport. Why don't you apply to all these programs and get back to us after the interview for a rank list? That would be more useful to you honestly. North/South Carolina and Tennessee have some great programs as does Kentucky. Apply broadly and try not to limit yourself. 3 years flies by quickly.

Thanks for your input! How attainable do you think are U South FL, UF Gainesville, MCG and MUSC? I am trying to decide where to do aways and I don't want to waste my time rotating at places that I have no chance. From the above UF Gainesville seemed to be the highest ranked, but my PD thinks I have really good chances there. Thanks

 

[Doc320]

Broward health program is brand new. Unless desperate for South FL don't go there. U FL Jacksonville has had a lot of issues over the years and is also a bottom choice. U South FL is excellent, as is UF Gainesville. Larkin falls in the don't go there catagory and as others have said, is mostly a DO program. Obviously Bascom is Bascom. Georgia has MCG wich is excellent. Alabamama has University program in Jackson which is decent but has a top tier program at UAB (Birmingham). A real gem. Lousiana has Tulane, LSU-New Orleans which are both excellent and less desirable but reasonable alternative at LSU Shreveport. Why don't you apply to all these programs and get back to us after the interview for a rank list? That would be more useful to you honestly. North/South Carolina and Tennessee have some great programs as does Kentucky. Apply broadly and try not to limit yourself. 3 years flies by quickly.

My feeling is the top of the crop in the South are programs, like Bascom Palmer, Duke, Vanderbilt, Emory. Then there are the solid programs, like Arkansas, MUSC, UAB, MCG, Tennessee, Florida. After that are the weaker ones, like South Carolina, South Florida, LSU-Shreveport. Florida-Jacksonville has had a rocky history from a new program started by a University of South Carolina professor then the program closed, only for it to reopen about 3 years later under an Indiana University professor. In 15 year's time, it could be a solid program. South Florida could also get better but its board pass rate is mixed with at least one recent class having a tough time passing, like a 25% pass rate, going up to 50% five years out.

Texas is considered Southwest but I am impressed with Texas Tech. Sure, it's no Cullen/Baylor but certainly solid. The past chair had bad blood with the department but he is long gone, having lost his lawsuit against the school.

 

[drboruto]

Can someone comment on what about this app makes chances only 50/50? I am also applying next year and based on my discussions with department advisors it sounded like an application like OP's is very solid and dual applying would not be necessary.

 

[i-doctor]

I said 50/50 because of low tier med school, no AOA (and the Step 2 of course which is very good, but not spectacular). The other parts are strong. I think this puts him right into the mix of the typical ophtho applicant, most of whom are equally as strong.

 

[Doc320]

Not mentioned is the applicant's gender, race, religion, height, appearance, who exactly is writing the recommendation, and how the applicant interviews.

One chair said that he prefers women because he believes that a certain percentage of them will work part time, causing there to be fewer ophthalmologists.

There are a few programs where there's quite a few residents of the same race or nationality as the program director or chair. When the program director and chair change, the race or nationality make-up then reverts back to the same as other programs. There are different explanations for this happening.

There's one program where the chair got his wife, a foreign medical school graduate, into the residency.

 

[anonymus55]

Not mentioned is the applicant's gender, race, religion, height, appearance, who exactly is writing the recommendation, and how the applicant interviews.

One chair said that he prefers women because he believes that a certain percentage of them will work part time, causing there to be fewer ophthalmologists.

There are a few programs where there's quite a few residents of the same race or nationality as the program director or chair. When the program director and chair change, the race or nationality make-up then reverts back to the same as other programs. There are different explanations for this happening.

There's one program where the chair got his wife, a foreign medical school graduate, into the residency.

I was told the same from my home PD @drboruto about no need to dual apply. The match rate was not horrible last year, 78% but who knows many people will be applying w/o step 2 score this might change things. Don't feel comfortable sharing demographics as the Ophtho field is pretty small, but 2/3 letter writers are quite famous in their respective subspecialties and hold/held prominent leadership positions, 3rd one is from home PD, who is not the most well connected, but is still the PD.

 

[MstaKing10]

My feeling is the top of the crop in the South are programs, like Bascom Palmer, Duke, Vanderbilt, Emory. Then there are the solid programs, like Arkansas, MUSC, UAB, MCG, Tennessee, Florida. After that are the weaker ones, like South Carolina, South Florida, LSU-Shreveport. Florida-Jacksonville has had a rocky history from a new program started by a University of South Carolina professor then the program closed, only for it to reopen about 3 years later under an Indiana University professor. In 15 year's time, it could be a solid program. South Florida could also get better but its board pass rate is mixed with at least one recent class having a tough time passing, like a 25% pass rate, going up to 50% five years out.

Texas is considered Southwest but I am impressed with Texas Tech. Sure, it's no Cullen/Baylor but certainly solid. The past chair had bad blood with the department but he is long gone, having lost his lawsuit against the school.

I wouldn't consider Texas as southern state. But if you are open to Texas there are some very strong programs there including Southwestern, Baylor and some excellent middle tier programs like Houston, Texas Tech, A and M, San Antonio etc.

 

[PLA2]

Not mentioned is the applicant's gender, race, religion, height, appearance, who exactly is writing the recommendation, and how the applicant interviews.

One chair said that he prefers women because he believes that a certain percentage of them will work part time, causing there to be fewer ophthalmologists.

There are a few programs where there's quite a few residents of the same race or nationality as the program director or chair. When the program director and chair change, the race or nationality make-up then reverts back to the same as other programs. There are different explanations for this happening.

There's one program where the chair got his wife, a foreign medical school graduate, into the residency.

This is all extremely true lmfao.

 

[m1redsox]

Solid app, OP. Given that the median step 2 ck score was a ~256 in the 2023 match cycle, if you can manage to score in the 255-265 range, you should have a greater than 80% chance at matching (likely 90%+) because you check all other boxes and have a home program. Sure, AOA might help get to a top program, but even in fields like dermatology or plastics, the percentage of matched USMDs who were AOA was <40% in 2022.

Personally, my bet is that the ~20% of USMDs who didn't match had <240 step 1 scores (<250 step 2), little to no research, or no home program. So, you should be covered, and I see no reason why you couldn't do an away at USF, UF, or UF-Jacksonville to try to impress them.

Other solid programs to consider in the southeast are UNC and Wake Forest. Honestly, the average applicant applies to ~90 programs anyways, so just apply to all of the SE programs haha.

 

[anonymus55]

Hey @Slide I believe you are faculty in the southeast? What are your thoughts? Thanks!

 

[anonymus55]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I got some mixed info about LORs some PDs prefer 3 ophtho LORs and other mentioned want 2 ophtho and one clinical nonophthalmology, which coincides with AUPO. Which combo is the way to go?

 

[davidxavi]

2 ophtho and 1 non-ophtho is the way to go. AUPO is the only formal recommendation, and they explicitly say to have 1 ophtho, 1 non-ophtho, and 1 can be either. You would get some questions at my program with 3 ophtho LORs.

 

[anonymus55]

2 ophtho and 1 non-ophtho is the way to go. AUPO is the only formal recommendation, and they explicitly say to have 1 ophtho, 1 non-ophtho, and 1 can be either. You would get some questions at my program with 3 ophtho LORs.

^^ Interesting cause at Bascom they said 3 ophthos > than 2+1 because they will likely know all 3 ophtho writers

 

[davidxavi]

Nobody can fault you for following AUPO guidance, otherwise you can gamble on it. I'd say if you have 3 Bascom, renowned ophthalmologists writing you a letter, go for it.

 

[eyeeye_captain]

2+1 was the rule of thumb back when I was applying. If someone is going to know the third ophthalmologist, they probably know one of the other two. You get some variety by having someone outside the field. Maybe my strongest letter came from the meanest old IM chair/PD you ever met.

 

[Slide]

Hey @Slide I believe you are faculty in the southeast? What are your thoughts? Thanks!

Sorry, for some reason I missed this.

Based on your paper stats, I think you'd be competitive at least in your region; if you were not particular about location I'd say you'd have high chances of matching. If you truly want to break into the Southeast, you need to apply widely and be realistic with your choices. If you want to get into FL, then you need to apply to every program there and hope someone interviews you there. Don't bother with Bascom Palmer (will let you know why later). You have great stats but the issue is your location and school; unless you are from a medical school with a very renown ophthalmology department, your interviews will be more clustered per location, with better chances closer to where you are.

Some of the FL programs will train you decently, some are questionable (like Jacksonville). If you really care about being in FL then beggars can't be choosers. The southeast has many good programs that will train you clinically and produce competent surgeons, unless you really care about having more publications than cataract numbers. Thus, I do encourage you to apply a bit wider. The main thing is to figure out which programs to avoid; I personally work at a program that isn't well renown in the US, but all of our residents come out of the gate day 1 ready to handle full volumes in comprehensive clinic, and the residents who go on to fellowships are often ahead of their colleagues surgically per their mentors (their words, not mine).

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I got some mixed info about LORs some PDs prefer 3 ophtho LORs and other mentioned want 2 ophtho and one clinical nonophthalmology, which coincides with AUPO. Which combo is the way to go?

Do 2 ophtho + one regular. The 3 ophtho LORs are talking out of their butt. We want to see what someone thinks of you in general of you overall medical skill - part of what makes this an MD field is the ability to take care of patients longitudinally, which is something no amount of lecture or coursework will ever prepare you for. What you hear at BPEI should not apply to most applicants ; the reality is for applicants for those programs or applying from those programs, the attendings are know each other and groom them for these programs ahead of time. The LOR is a formality and thus it doesn't matter for these applicants, they've already talked way ahead of time. I saw it first hand as a fellow during a training course.

 

[anonymus55]

Sorry, for some reason I missed this.

Based on your paper stats, I think you'd be competitive at least in your region; if you were not particular about location I'd say you'd have high chances of matching. If you truly want to break into the Southeast, you need to apply widely and be realistic with your choices. If you want to get into FL, then you need to apply to every program there and hope someone interviews you there. Don't bother with Bascom Palmer (will let you know why later). You have great stats but the issue is your location and school; unless you are from a medical school with a very renown ophthalmology department, your interviews will be more clustered per location, with better chances closer to where you are.

Some of the FL programs will train you decently, some are questionable (like Jacksonville). If you really care about being in FL then beggars can't be choosers. The southeast has many good programs that will train you clinically and produce competent surgeons, unless you really care about having more publications than cataract numbers. Thus, I do encourage you to apply a bit wider. The main thing is to figure out which programs to avoid; I personally work at a program that isn't well renown in the US, but all of our residents come out of the gate day 1 ready to handle full volumes in comprehensive clinic, and the residents who go on to fellowships are often ahead of their colleagues surgically per their mentors (their words, not mine).



Do 2 ophtho + one regular. The 3 ophtho LORs are talking out of their butt. We want to see what someone thinks of you in general of you overall medical skill - part of what makes this an MD field is the ability to take care of patients longitudinally, which is something no amount of lecture or coursework will ever prepare you for. What you hear at BPEI should not apply to most applicants ; the reality is for applicants for those programs or applying from those programs, the attendings are know each other and groom them for these programs ahead of time. The LOR is a formality and thus it doesn't matter for these applicants, they've already talked way ahead of time. I saw it first hand as a fellow during a training course.

In your opinion which programs in the south fly under the radar, but produce residents that are able to to handle full volumes from day 1?

 

[Slide]

In your opinion which programs in the south fly under the radar, but produce residents that are able to to handle full volumes from day 1?

Check your DM.