Opinions: General public doesn't know what DO is?

[IndianVercetti]

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Alright, please don't think that I'm trying to downplay the DO degree. I first and foremost view the MD and DO degrees on an equal plane, and am honestly considering both options when I apply next year. However, one thing that has been bothering me is that it seems that every 3rd person I talk to that isn't associated with the medical field directly, has absolutely NO idea what this 'D.O' degree is..

Now, I'm just curious what your opinions are on this - Basically is this saying that the general public would have more "faith" in an MD versus a DO simply due to their naivety? I've heard throughout these forums that being a doctor, is being a doctor, and that the degree after your name really has no role in your success as a physician. But do these issues bother any future DO students?

 

[bleeker10]

Alright, please don't think that I'm trying to downplay the DO degree. I first and foremost view the MD and DO degrees on an equal plane, and am honestly considering both options when I apply next year. However, one thing that has been bothering me is that it seems that every 3rd person I talk to that isn't associated with the medical field directly, has absolutely NO idea what this 'D.O' degree is..

Now, I'm just curious what your opinions are on this - Basically is this saying that the general public would have more "faith" in an MD versus a DO simply due to their naivety? I've heard throughout these forums that being a doctor, is being a doctor, and that the degree after your name really has no role in your success as a physician. But do these issues bother any future DO students?

There is a lack of public knowledge on the DO degree. Almost everyone knows what chiropractors are, but osteopathy and chiropractic were started within a few years of each other. I didn't know what a DO was until I attended at premed club meeting at my undergrad. Now I know there are no big differences between the two degrees, but that doesn't mean I won't experience discrimination in my future practice. Luckily for me, the military is very pro-DO. According to an Army DO at my school, the military doesn't care what your title is other than rank. He said I will be called Captain or Major and not doctor. Unfortunately this logic won't apply to the civilian sector. You will just have to learn to not care about it. I have met plenty of DO's who have no problem with the lack of public knowledge, but I have met some DO's with major inferiority complexes that think they are better physicians due to the osteopathic philosophy and OMM/OMT. I think each person will have to face that battle when the day comes, but there's no point in worrying about it now. Just focus on getting into med school

 

[Exalya]

Alright, please don't think that I'm trying to downplay the DO degree. I first and foremost view the MD and DO degrees on an equal plane, and am honestly considering both options when I apply next year. However, one thing that has been bothering me is that it seems that every 3rd person I talk to that isn't associated with the medical field directly, has absolutely NO idea what this 'D.O' degree is..

Now, I'm just curious what your opinions are on this - Basically is this saying that the general public would have more "faith" in an MD versus a DO simply due to their naivety? I've heard throughout these forums that being a doctor, is being a doctor, and that the degree after your name really has no role in your success as a physician. But do these issues bother any future DO students?

Most people where I come from have no idea what a DO is. My hometown is a small agricultural town, and recently was priviledged to get a new doctor, who is a DO. My grandmother called to ask me whether or not it was "safe" to go to a doctor who was not an MD. After I explained to her--and all of her friends--that DO's were pretty much the same, they decided to go to that doctor. Once they were educated they were receptive, but the problem is getting them educated. Hopefully this will improve in coming years.

 

[J-Rad]

Alright...

As an experiment, have you asked if they know who operates on kids' hearts? And what did they do to come to be able to do that (i.e. training)? Try. See what responses you get. What's your answer before you Google it? I realize that that might seem like an abstract point, but I think it will be illustrative of how esoteric and little known the true details of medicine are. Want to further the experiment? Ask if they know how physicians and hospitals get reimbursed for services. If they know what "capitation" is. These are points that affect them directly every time they seek healthcare. I'd be interested in the general level of knowledge that you'll find.
So what's the point? Medicine, as a subject of knowledge is esoteric in the extreme. Ignorance abounds about many if not most topics in medicine amongst the general public. The relative lack of "fame" of the DO degree is just one small facet. I don't find it all that relevant. In fact, I think that the focus on making the DO degree a household name and "branding" it is detrimental to the profession and is, counter-intuitively, making it less well known (but that is a subject that I think is larger than the topic at hand). So I don't know if you were only seeking the opinions of pre-meds, but as a current DO: it has never been an issue for me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've found that close to 100% of the population knows what a doctor is ... I'd leave it at that.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As an experiment, have you asked if they know who operates on kids' hearts? And what did they do to come to be able to do that (i.e. training)? Try. See what responses you get. What's your answer before you Google it? I realize that that might seem like an abstract point, but I think it will be illustrative of how esoteric and little known the true details of medicine are.

You wouldn't even have to go this far. I've been planning on going to medical school since elementary school and despite years of speaking about it, almost everyone I interact with frequently still doesn't understand why we are in a hospital 3rd and 4th year - nor does my dad understand why I don't get paid for it, and they cannot grasp the concept of a residency (and most think that you go to school differently depending on what you want to go into). Also, everyone I speak to about it throws the term 'internship' around in these horribly confusing wrong manners and it just blows me away, AND (this one kills me) everyone asks me if I'm going to 'specialize' - which I'm guessing means they assume you're automatically a GP or you go into something else (IE family med, internal med etc aren't specializing).

With this said .... not understanding what a DO is doesn't bother me.

 

[Exalya]

You wouldn't even have to go this far. I've been planning on going to medical school since elementary school and despite years of speaking about it, almost everyone I interact with frequently still doesn't understand why we are in a hospital 3rd and 4th year - nor does my dad understand why I don't get paid for it, and they cannot grasp the concept of a residency (and most think that you go to school differently depending on what you want to go into). Also, everyone I speak to about it throws the term 'internship' around in these horribly confusing wrong manners and it just blows me away, AND (this one kills me) everyone asks me if I'm going to 'specialize' - which I'm guessing means they assume you're automatically a GP or you go into something else (IE family med, internal med etc aren't specializing).

With this said .... not understanding what a DO is doesn't bother me.

I have experienced almost everything you listed there. >.> You make an excellent point; most people don't understand medicine as a whole. I'm not even a medical student, and what little I know still amounts to WAY more than my family or friends knew previously.

I have actually encountered a person who believes that you have to be a nurse before you become a doctor. When I informed him that this was not the case, he accused me of lying about applying to medical school. Sigh.

 

[sshashid87]

I've heard of one instance where a friend's mom made him go to an MD after getting a physical from a DO. My dad is an MD but I've been to DO/MD physicians on his recommendation. Professionally, you won't notice a difference, but there will always be people who are uneducated and unaware of the DO letters, but of those who are, very few will care who treats them. If they are working in a hospital, patients will assume they are doctors. And the DO family practice group in my hometown doesn't accept any new patients because they are incredibly backed up and just don't have time. You are probably going to have a few barriers as a DO, a few dumb/arrogant patients who think your opinion is worthless since you aren't an MD, but this is an extremely small minority. My friend's mother is an example of one (she has no idea what DO actually stands for, she just knows it's not MD, and she was willing to pay for 2 different physicals because of it). Point is, no capable doctor will ever be suffering for patients, DO or MD. People know they need a doctor, that's it, 97% of the population will not care. If they don't know what a DO is, they will probably ask, and you will tell them. It'll be a less than stimulating conversation, but it'll be a one time thing. Most will stop there, the other 3% believe what this esteemed "MD" believes http://quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html (I don't know if links are allowed here, but yeah...)

Btw, I'm applying MD and DO, so no bias here.

 

[jjmad1201]

most people i talk to think DO's are optometrists.....

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've heard of one instance where a friend's mom made him go to an MD after getting a physical from a DO. My dad is an MD but I've been to DO/MD physicians on his recommendation. Professionally, you won't notice a difference, but there will always be people who are uneducated and unaware of the DO letters, but of those who are, very few will care who treats them. If they are working in a hospital, patients will assume they are doctors. And the DO family practice group in my hometown doesn't accept any new patients because they are incredibly backed up and just don't have time. You are probably going to have a few barriers as a DO, a few dumb/arrogant patients who think your opinion is worthless since you aren't an MD, but this is an extremely small minority. My friend's mother is an example of one (she has no idea what DO actually stands for, she just knows it's not MD, and she was willing to pay for 2 different physicals because of it). Point is, no capable doctor will ever be suffering for patients, DO or MD. People know they need a doctor, that's it, 97% of the population will not care. If they don't know what a DO is, they will probably ask, and you will tell them. It'll be a less than stimulating conversation, but it'll be a one time thing. Most will stop there, the other 3% believe what this esteemed "MD" believes http://quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html (I don't know if links are allowed here, but yeah...)

Btw, I'm applying MD and DO, so no bias here.

Like you said about the one DO so full he can't take new patients ... DOs aren't being hurt by the .01% of people who won't see/don't like DOs or whatever. I'd say my breakdown:

-80% of people have absolutely no idea they are seeing a DO. I saw one for 20 years before I knew he was a DO (found out when first started researching osteopathic medicine). The reason why is because MDs and DOs are just doctors, and people just want to be treated.

-10% of people will notice (this is if you put DO after ur name and not Dr in front of it), ask, you will explain, and they will say ... oh, okay, and see you for the rest of their life.

-1% have DO bias - I can't explain why.

-9% seek out DOs because they have been helped by some way through OMM or saw a DO that saved their life, etc, and now want to see only DOs (this percent could actually be a lot bigger, I just said it because 1. I needed percents to add up 2. I'm assuming almost everyone just sees doctors they like and feel comfortable with).

 

[AMEHigh]

I've found that close to 100% of the population knows what a doctor is ... I'd leave it at that.

Ditto. I've heard from several DO doctors that the whole DO vs. MD thing is such a premed thing and isn't a big deal at all in "the real world." I attend a DO school that is one of the oldest and no one is concerned about how the public is going to perceive us when we graduate. If someone asks you what you do for a living, you'll say you're a doctor, simple as that. Also, believe it or not, some people actually seek out medical treatment specifially from a DO, so it can also have its benefits 🙂

 

[IndianVercetti]

Pretty interesting opinions here. Yeah, I'm planning on applying MD and DO - the goal is to become a doctor.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Pretty interesting opinions here. Yeah, I'm planning on applying MD and DO - the goal is to become a doctor.

That's the way to go my friend! Good luck. 👍

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ditto. I've heard from several DO doctors that the whole DO vs. MD thing is such a premed thing and isn't a big deal at all in "the real world." I attend a DO school that is one of the oldest and no one is concerned about how the public is going to perceive us when we graduate. If someone asks you what you do for a living, you'll say you're a doctor, simple as that. Also, believe it or not, some people actually seek out medical treatment specifially from a DO, so it can also have its benefits 🙂

The bottom line is that you'll be fine. I've heard opinions/stories from all over the spectrum. Basically, I look at it this way a. They are all case specific (ie the person was defensive about being a DO, or in some part of the country I don't plan on practicing, etc) and b. It's up to me what I do/become, you know?

 

[Dovey4424]

I think there is still a big misconception as to what a DO truly is. Manipulative medicine is the key component in the practice of an osteopathic physician. Instead of simply writing a prescription after diagnosing the problem, a DO physician will try to manipulate the body in some way as a primary treatment. If that doesn't work, then a prescription is written. Honestly, I have shadowed DOs and MDs and there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in the way they go about treating their patients. I have heard that curriculum for MD and DO medical schools is relatively the same except that DO requires an additional 200 hours of training. Either way both routes, whether they be MD or DO, share a common goal: to cure and treat the patient the best way possible.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Instead of simply writing a prescription after diagnosing the problem, a DO physician will try to manipulate the body in some way as a primary treatment.

Not if it isn't appropriate.

 

[Scorcher31]

Dovey I think that depends. Although all DO's have the knowledge of manipulative medicine many do not use it. Just off the top of my head ~ %5 of the DO's I know use it. A lot of of us think that aspects of it may be helpful in some instances, but would rather refer out to a DO that does a lot of OMM. Also many of us do not go into primary care anymore.

I'm sure many will disagree, and I am very happy with my school and my degree, but there is little difference between MD's and DO's anymore. Unless you really think you will like OMM, mply find a school you like at a place you are comfortable, that has affiliations and can help you set up rotations, and whre people generally seem to get a long and look happy.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Dovey I think that depends. Although all DO's have the knowledge of manipulative medicine many do not use it. Just off the top of my head ~ %5 of the DO's I know use it. A lot of of us think that aspects of it may be helpful in some instances, but would rather refer out to a DO that does a lot of OMM. Also many of us do not go into primary care anymore.

I'm sure many will disagree, and I am very happy with my school and my degree, but there is little difference between MD's and DO's anymore. Unless you really think you will like OMM, mply find a school you like at a place you are comfortable, that has affiliations and can help you set up rotations, and whre people generally seem to get a long and look happy.

Good advice!! 👍

 

[RimpleDoc]

Alright, please don't think that I'm trying to downplay the DO degree. I first and foremost view the MD and DO degrees on an equal plane, and am honestly considering both options when I apply next year. However, one thing that has been bothering me is that it seems that every 3rd person I talk to that isn't associated with the medical field directly, has absolutely NO idea what this 'D.O' degree is..

Now, I'm just curious what your opinions are on this - Basically is this saying that the general public would have more "faith" in an MD versus a DO simply due to their naivety? I've heard throughout these forums that being a doctor, is being a doctor, and that the degree after your name really has no role in your success as a physician. But do these issues bother any future DO students?

Actually you would be surprised if you really believe that MDs and DOs are on the same level playing field. I am from California and most of the good residencies rarely take DOs, its possible to get a residency in California as a DO but it is fairly uphill. Some top level medical centers are still biased against DOs. For example, Sloan Kettering in NYC has many foreign MDs, even a few Caribbean graduates, but not a single DO. That is considered the best Cancer center in the USA. In most cases though DOs tend to be on an equal playing field. Yes its true that many people are ignorant about the DO designation.

The biggest problem with most DO programs is the clinical education, most do not have dedicated teaching hospitals and clinical departments, which means you might do quite a bit of moving around in your third and fourth year of medical school. Most MD programs have their own clinical training centers. This could make quite a difference when it comes to getting a good residency. In general the vast majority of MDs become specialists while more DOs become primary care doctors although these days much larger numbers of DOs are specializing, still at most schools the majority go to primary care fields.

 

[DocHomer]

Actually you would be surprised if you really believe that MDs and DOs are on the same level playing field. I am from California and most of the good residencies rarely take DOs, its possible to get a residency in California as a DO but it is fairly uphill. Some top level medical centers are still biased against DOs. For example, Sloan Kettering in NYC has many foreign MDs, even a few Caribbean graduates, but not a single DO. That is considered the best Cancer center in the USA. In most cases though DOs tend to be on an equal playing field. Yes its true that many people are ignorant about the DO designation.

The biggest problem with most DO programs is the clinical education, most do not have dedicated teaching hospitals and clinical departments, which means you might do quite a bit of moving around in your third and fourth year of medical school. Most MD programs have their own clinical training centers. This could make quite a difference when it comes to getting a good residency. In general the vast majority of MDs become specialists while more DOs become primary care doctors although these days much larger numbers of DOs are specializing, still at most schools the majority go to primary care fields.

What/who are your sources?

 

[droogdoc]

Actually you would be surprised if you really believe that MDs and DOs are on the same level playing field. I am from California and most of the good residencies rarely take DOs, its possible to get a residency in California as a DO but it is fairly uphill. Some top level medical centers are still biased against DOs. For example, Sloan Kettering in NYC has many foreign MDs, even a few Caribbean graduates, but not a single DO. That is considered the best Cancer center in the USA. In most cases though DOs tend to be on an equal playing field. Yes its true that many people are ignorant about the DO designation.

The biggest problem with most DO programs is the clinical education, most do not have dedicated teaching hospitals and clinical departments, which means you might do quite a bit of moving around in your third and fourth year of medical school. Most MD programs have their own clinical training centers. This could make quite a difference when it comes to getting a good residency. In general the vast majority of MDs become specialists while more DOs become primary care doctors although these days much larger numbers of DOs are specializing, still at most schools the majority go to primary care fields.

I agree. Most of this isnt true. CA residencies are competitive for MD and DO. Most are VERy competitive. But with the exception of a few DO schools, not many require "a lot" of moving around in the third year. If you think "a lot" is rotating in a city and having to in its suburbs as well, umm, that is many MD schools too. That's moving around somewhat significantly too.

Maybe you think one should just go to a Caribbean school, just because they are MD?? No moving around there at all.....New York--->Arizona---->California

 

[JaggerPlate]

Actually you would be surprised if you really believe that MDs and DOs are on the same level playing field. I am from California and most of the good residencies rarely take DOs, its possible to get a residency in California as a DO but it is fairly uphill. Some top level medical centers are still biased against DOs. For example, Sloan Kettering in NYC has many foreign MDs, even a few Caribbean graduates, but not a single DO. That is considered the best Cancer center in the USA. In most cases though DOs tend to be on an equal playing field. Yes its true that many people are ignorant about the DO designation.

The biggest problem with most DO programs is the clinical education, most do not have dedicated teaching hospitals and clinical departments, which means you might do quite a bit of moving around in your third and fourth year of medical school. Most MD programs have their own clinical training centers. This could make quite a difference when it comes to getting a good residency. In general the vast majority of MDs become specialists while more DOs become primary care doctors although these days much larger numbers of DOs are specializing, still at most schools the majority go to primary care fields.

This post is super wrong on way too many levels, and it's an example of spewing second hand information and gaining no knowledge for yourself. I'm not bashing you, and I won't start a war, but let me cover some of your comments:

-I've lived in CA for 22 years, attended a top of the tops university in CA, volunteered hundreds of hours in it's HUGE academic medical center and found DOs all over the place. In fact, the head of the emergency department (Chief of Emergency Medicine) was a DO from CCOM. Great guy, fantastic doctor. You need to remember that you don't have to do a residency in CA to practice here. A lot of people do, and it's bc they were born and raised in CA and want to live here during/after residency. You could do an AOA residency in gas, derm, surgery, etc and move back and practice anywhere in CA or NY. Also, about the hospitals in NY ... they are notorious for being one of the only places friendly to Caribbean grads, and with good cause. SGU paid one hospital there MILLIONS to take their students for clinicals.

-You are falling prey to a similar trap again. Most people think MD school = connected to a big university = our own hospital to play in ... this is not the case. A lot of PRIVATE medical schools (MD or DO) suffer from this problem and do not have their own university hospital. So what they do is set up good relations with med centers (et al) and do clinicals there. With people now a days paying 200k and busting their arse to go to med school, kids are smart enough to attend schools with solid clinical rotations. The internet, word of mouth, and evolving applicants has killed the ole you'll have to live in 19 states to finish 3/4th year, and I personally ranked clinical rotations as one of my top priorities in selecting a school. IE pay attention to it, and you'll find a school that is set up for this kind of thing well.

-Finally, you comment about specialization. First, a small comment ... anyone who completes a residency has specialized. This can mean that they specialize in primary care or internal medicine, but they still specialize. Furthermore, take a look at some match lists. The days of DOs all becoming primary care docs are long gone. DO match lists are filled with gas, surg, ENT, rads, etc etc , just the same as MD schools. Also, take a look at the HUGE number of people who still go into primary care from MD schools. Just the other night I was looking over the match list from Creighton University (a MD school) and found good numbers of specialization but also tons of family med, internal med, peds, and ob/gyn. I really think match lists (in terms of specialization) from DO schools hold their ground any day of the week.

Hope this helps!

 

[sshashid87]

As for the specialization thing, everyone seems to knock FP as the students who couldn't get anything else. That's just not true. I know plenty of friends who are going to MD and DO schools with the aim to go into FP from the start. Sure, there are always some who are relegated to the "easier" residencies, but don't think that a heavy FP match is indicative of scores, etc. Also, there are DOs in every major hospital in the country, from Harvard to Mayo and Hopkins. People get jobs at these places because they are the best, not because of the letters behind their name. A subpar MD won't take a job over an excellent DO, but admittedly, statistically equal MD/DO may lean in favor of the MD. Some residencies mentioned that they hadn't taken DO residents ever (second hand, heard from friend 2-3 yrs ago), and they were happy about it. It's a minority of places, don't let that discourage you from attending DO schools. There will ALWAYS be people who look down on DOs, from doctors to patients, there's no getting around it. In the end, though, you are working at the same job, and treating the same patients. I talked to a friend at med school yesterday, he said his entire class looks down on DOs...by the time they get to practice, I guarantee they'll change their attitude, they'll have to since they will be working with them daily. Don't think of DOs as substandard because a few egomaniacal, arrogant individuals won't accept them into some residency programs. You'll be a doctor, that's the end of it.

Also, anyone who looks down on you for being a doctor is mentally incompetent. The MD/DO debate is possibly one of the dumbest conversations ever, because it almost always ends in MD PRE-MED/MED STUDENTS comparing DO students to lepers, who they neither want to work with or associate with. People grow up...eventually. Give it time.

 

[ducki303]

There are two dental degrees out there: DDS and DMD. From my understanding, the public doesn't make as big a hooplah about the difference between the dental degrees. They seem to understand that both are well trained in their craft. I don't understand why the whole DO vs MD thing is such a issue. Maybe we should just change ours to "MDO" (something similar looking to the MD), and be done with the whole thing all together. hehe.

 

[JaggerPlate]

There are two dental degrees out there: DDS and DMD. From my understanding, the public doesn't make as big a hooplah about the difference between the dental degrees. They seem to understand that both are well trained in their craft. I don't understand why the whole DO vs MD thing is such a issue. Maybe we should just change ours to "MDO" (something similar looking to the MD), and be done with the whole thing all together. hehe.

Apparently in some states there are two vet degrees too DVM vs VMD. It's really not that big of a deal at all in my opinion. The dean at NOVA was lobbying to get it changed to OMD or MDO a few years ago, but I don't think the AOA has plans to change it anytime soon. I personally have no issue with it, it's the ability to practice medicine I care about, and I've always enjoyed educating people about it/explaining that there are two medical degrees in the US.

 

[123165]

Also, there is the fallacy where you think that seeing less DO's who specialize in in a competitive field means it is harder for them to do such. There are just fewer DO's period, leading to the view that less get into X, Y, and Z.

I would also question the claim that the majority of DO's specialize in primary care as well.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I would also question the claim that the majority of DO's specialize in primary care as well.

There is a thread with breakdowns of what percent goes into primary care somewhere. Some are quite high, others FAR lower than you'd think.

 

[123165]

There is a thread with breakdowns of what percent goes into primary care somewhere. Some are quite high, others FAR lower than you'd think.

Looks like it was about 52% in 2009 for matching, and the AOA states 65% currently practicing.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Looks like it was about 52% in 2009 for matching, and the AOA states 65% currently practicing.

Yeah, that probably makes sense just in general, but there is a really cool, per school breakdown. Either way though ... completely myth that you can't do something like surg, rads, gas, etc from a DO school.

 

[RimpleDoc]

This post is super wrong on way too many levels, and it's an example of spewing second hand information and gaining no knowledge for yourself. I'm not bashing you, and I won't start a war, but let me cover some of your comments:

-I've lived in CA for 22 years, attended a top of the tops university in CA, volunteered hundreds of hours in it's HUGE academic medical center and found DOs all over the place. In fact, the head of the emergency department (Chief of Emergency Medicine) was a DO from CCOM. Great guy, fantastic doctor. You need to remember that you don't have to do a residency in CA to practice here. A lot of people do, and it's bc they were born and raised in CA and want to live here during/after residency. You could do an AOA residency in gas, derm, surgery, etc and move back and practice anywhere in CA or NY. Also, about the hospitals in NY ... they are notorious for being one of the only places friendly to Caribbean grads, and with good cause. SGU paid one hospital there MILLIONS to take their students for clinicals.

-You are falling prey to a similar trap again. Most people think MD school = connected to a big university = our own hospital to play in ... this is not the case. A lot of PRIVATE medical schools (MD or DO) suffer from this problem and do not have their own university hospital. So what they do is set up good relations with med centers (et al) and do clinicals there. With people now a days paying 200k and busting their arse to go to med school, kids are smart enough to attend schools with solid clinical rotations. The internet, word of mouth, and evolving applicants has killed the ole you'll have to live in 19 states to finish 3/4th year, and I personally ranked clinical rotations as one of my top priorities in selecting a school. IE pay attention to it, and you'll find a school that is set up for this kind of thing well.

-Finally, you comment about specialization. First, a small comment ... anyone who completes a residency has specialized. This can mean that they specialize in primary care or internal medicine, but they still specialize. Furthermore, take a look at some match lists. The days of DOs all becoming primary care docs are long gone. DO match lists are filled with gas, surg, ENT, rads, etc etc , just the same as MD schools. Also, take a look at the HUGE number of people who still go into primary care from MD schools. Just the other night I was looking over the match list from Creighton University (a MD school) and found good numbers of specialization but also tons of family med, internal med, peds, and ob/gyn. I really think match lists (in terms of specialization) from DO schools hold their ground any day of the week.

Hope this helps!

I was checking the staff list for Sloan Kettering Hospital, that is the best Cancer Center in the US and is affiliated with Cornell University. I have not seen a single DO on their staff, but many IMGs, and a fair number of Caribbean trained MDs. Sloan Kettering is an elite institution on the level with Mass General and the Mayo Clinic. In most cases MDs and DOs are equal but there are still many hospitals that discriminate against DOs. I am from California, and there are some cities that are notoriously anti DO, its extremely hard for a DO to get a residency in the San Francisco Bay Area. I know of only two hospitals in SF that regularly recruit DOs for their residency program and both are pretty mediocre not big name programs like Stanford and UCSF. Quite a few places in SoCal are similar, UCLA is dominated by MDs, UCLA has many foreign trained MDs. I think though that DOs are making a lot of progress and in most cases are on a level playing field but the fact remains that for Allopathic residencies, graduates of Osteopathic schools are independent non sponsored applicants, they still do better than most IMGs, but they do have disadvantage compared to MDs who are sponsored.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I was checking the staff list for Sloan Kettering Hospital, that is the best Cancer Center in the US and is affiliated with Cornell University. I have not seen a single DO on their staff, but many IMGs, and a fair number of Caribbean trained MDs. Sloan Kettering is an elite institution on the level with Mass General and the Mayo Clinic. In most cases MDs and DOs are equal but there are still many hospitals that discriminate against DOs. I am from California, and there are some cities that are notoriously anti DO, its extremely hard for a DO to get a residency in the San Francisco Bay Area. I know of only two hospitals in SF that regularly recruit DOs for their residency program and both are pretty mediocre not big name programs like Stanford and UCSF. Quite a few places in SoCal are similar, UCLA is dominated by MDs, UCLA has many foreign trained MDs. I think though that DOs are making a lot of progress and in most cases are on a level playing field but the fact remains that for Allopathic residencies, graduates of Osteopathic schools are independent non sponsored applicants, they still do better than most IMGs, but they do have disadvantage compared to MDs who are sponsored.

How many DOs applied to these programs?? Do you know of any DOs that have applied for positions at SLoan?

 

[sshashid87]

There's at least one.

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/958.cfm

None in radiation oncology, but there's less than 30 doctors total in that department.

 

[RimpleDoc]

One DO but look up foreign trained MDs, a lot more show up. And that DO completed an Allopathic residency. Also he is a PCOM graduate and that school is almost an Allopathic school in many respects. Still in most cases, with regards to clinical practice rights, DOs are essentially equal but I know in California the environment in CA is very anti DO and anti IMG. Northern California around the San Francisco is particularly the case, most residents in good hospitals there usually went to a top 25 MD program. I know at the departments at UCLA where I volunteered, all the residents were MDs. I talked to a lot of doctors in LA and they all told me that an MD would be better overall with regards to specializing and working in research and academia.


I found a few other DOs but all completed allopathic residencies.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

One DO but look up foreign trained MDs, a lot more show up. And that DO completed an Allopathic residency. Also he is a PCOM graduate and that school is almost an Allopathic school in many respects. Still in most cases, with regards to clinical practice rights, DOs are essentially equal but I know in California the environment in CA is very anti DO and anti IMG. Northern California around the San Francisco is particularly the case, most residents in good hospitals there usually went to a top 25 MD program. I know at the departments at UCLA where I volunteered, all the residents were MDs. I talked to a lot of doctors in LA and they all told me that an MD would be better overall with regards to specializing and working in research and academia.


I found a few other DOs but all completed allopathic residencies.

So you proved your own theory to be incorrect. It seems not your making excuses and assumptions as to why those DOs landed positions and residencies at that particular program. DO residents and attendings make up a VERY small population compared to their MD counterparts. Unless, a program director or hospital administrator told you they absolutely do not accept DO students, residents, or attendings then you really can not make that assumption that they won't. You stated that the docs said it would be better if someone is an MD for research and academia, but they didn't say that its was impossible, right?

 

[sshashid87]

So what? Look, there's nothing we can do about it. Certain places are just not going to be DO friendly, it's the way it is. I think all the DO graduates will find a place outside of Northern Cali to practice and settle. It's not the end of the world. If you are deadset on practicing there, work your tail off and get into a good MD school in the US. A lot of us would be happy with a DO, and we'll get by without the business of a couple percent of the country's population. I get what you are saying, the best hospitals, are reluctant to take DOs in your opinion, and the opinion of LA doctors. Mayo/CC/Hopkins all have DOs, so that's good enough for me. I don't know what else to say, you'll probably come back and say MD is still better, so this argument may never end.

Btw, 50% of all DO complete ACGME (allo) residencies...so it's not a crazy impressive feat to say you've done an MD residency...

 

[PunkmedGirl]

So what? Look, there's nothing we can do about it. Certain places are just not going to be DO friendly, it's the way it is. I think all the DO graduates will find a place outside of Northern Cali to practice and settle. It's not the end of the world. If you are deadset on practicing there, work your tail off and get into a good MD school in the US. A lot of us would be happy with a DO, and we'll get by without the business of a couple percent of the country's population. I get what you are saying, the best hospitals, are reluctant to take DOs in your opinion, and the opinion of LA doctors. Mayo/CC/Hopkins all have DOs, so that's good enough for me. I don't know what else to say, you'll probably come back and say MD is still better, so this argument may never end.

Btw, 50% of all DO complete ACGME (allo) residencies...so it's not a crazy impressive feat to say you've done an MD residency...

I don't think Rimple really knows what he's talking about because of the simple fact that he made an assumption about SLOAN, and you provided him the information that refutes his assumption. Then he made an excuse to say, "Oh, that's only because they came from this school which is almost like a MD school or they did an allopathic residency."

 

[sshashid87]

Yeah...I can't tell what the end result was supposed to be, but that's fine. Rimple, you'll be a good doctor or bad doctor, and that has nothing to do with the letters behind your name. In the end, the good doctor with good recommendations, strong experience, etc will get the job. Very few places are going to shut you out. But first step is getting into med school, worry about jobs later.

 

[group_theory]

RimpleDoc, you do know that Sloan Kettering is a rotation site for PCOM's General Surgery residency program, right?

How can a place that is so anti-DO (as you claim) serve as a rotation site for a DO school?

My classmates have gone on to match at Hopkins, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, etc. True, none of my classmates went to UCSF or Stanford, so I guess my class was a failure in the eyes of RimpleDoc.


But what do I know. I'm just a DO in an allopathic university training program who have gone through the process (and actually participate in the ranking process for my program) and practice medicine everyday with patient interactions. My experience is surely limited and anecdotal. I'm sure RimpleDoc knows more about this than I do, so I look forward to hear how I am mistaken and that my perception of osteopathic medicine is wrong.

 

[Bacchus]

RimpleDoc, you do know that Sloan Kettering is a rotation site for PCOM's General Surgery residency program, right?

How can a place that is so anti-DO (as you claim) serve as a rotation site for a DO school?

My classmates have gone on to match at Hopkins, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, etc. True, none of my classmates went to UCSF or Stanford, so I guess my class was a failure in the eyes of RimpleDoc.


But what do I know. I'm just a DO in an allopathic university training program who have gone through the process (and actually participate in the ranking process for my program) and practice medicine everyday with patient interactions. My experience is surely limited and anecdotal. I'm sure RimpleDoc knows more about this than I do, so I look forward to hear how I am mistaken and that my perception of osteopathic medicine is wrong.

I thought we had that connection. I was too lazy to look up the gen. surg. website though. 😎

 

[USArmyDoc]

RimpleDoc, you do know that Sloan Kettering is a rotation site for PCOM's General Surgery residency program, right?

How can a place that is so anti-DO (as you claim) serve as a rotation site for a DO school?

My classmates have gone on to match at Hopkins, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, etc. True, none of my classmates went to UCSF or Stanford, so I guess my class was a failure in the eyes of RimpleDoc.


But what do I know. I'm just a DO in an allopathic university training program who have gone through the process (and actually participate in the ranking process for my program) and practice medicine everyday with patient interactions. My experience is surely limited and anecdotal. I'm sure RimpleDoc knows more about this than I do, so I look forward to hear how I am mistaken and that my perception of osteopathic medicine is wrong.

Exactly.....I was working with residents on my general surgery rotation that were going to rotate there after they finished their month.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I was checking the staff list for Sloan Kettering Hospital, that is the best Cancer Center in the US and is affiliated with Cornell University. I have not seen a single DO on their staff, but many IMGs, and a fair number of Caribbean trained MDs. Sloan Kettering is an elite institution on the level with Mass General and the Mayo Clinic. In most cases MDs and DOs are equal but there are still many hospitals that discriminate against DOs. I am from California, and there are some cities that are notoriously anti DO, its extremely hard for a DO to get a residency in the San Francisco Bay Area. I know of only two hospitals in SF that regularly recruit DOs for their residency program and both are pretty mediocre not big name programs like Stanford and UCSF. Quite a few places in SoCal are similar, UCLA is dominated by MDs, UCLA has many foreign trained MDs. I think though that DOs are making a lot of progress and in most cases are on a level playing field but the fact remains that for Allopathic residencies, graduates of Osteopathic schools are independent non sponsored applicants, they still do better than most IMGs, but they do have disadvantage compared to MDs who are sponsored.

Again, one example from one hospital and complete he/she said lack of evidence. In the examples you brought up (UCLA and the SF Bay) I have complete proof to debunk both those claims. Guess where the big University Hospital was where I knew the head of Emergency and he was a DO from CCOM?? The DO I shadowed also got an amazing job offer to work in the Bay. He said there aren't a lot of DOs up there, but he didn't feel discriminated against. So there, two first hand examples, not your conjecture - which is frankly worthless.

Also, are you sure at this god damn NY hospital you keep bringing up, that DOs aren't registered as MDs? I've seen various examples where hospitals just label all physicians as MDs then in a profile it will say 'attended x college of osteopathic medicine.'

 

[JaggerPlate]

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/958.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/973.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/971.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/962.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/602.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/1113.cfm

http://www.mskcc.org/prg/prg/bios/1092.cfm

.... you suck at this game man.