opinions on ross

[Mz.Doctor]

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any positives on ross...what i need to know if i decide to go there...

 

[lilzelda]

Good pass rate, my pre-med advisior thought it was a very strong program and their approved in all 50 states...

 

[bulletproof]

any positives on ross...what i need to know if i decide to go there...

I am currently a third year student there. As far as the teaching goes it was very good when I was on the island....scored quite a bit above the USMLE step I mean. I am currently doing well in clinicals and have already been asked to return to my IM site to do residency there by the program director ( I am not even considering an IM residency). Why am I telling you all this? Ross will get you where you want to go as long as you have a good work ethic and you know why you are going to medical school.
The pertinent negatives.....you will have to get used to the food, studying when it is gorgeous outside.
PM me if you need any more info.
goodluck.

 

[Mom2five]

I am currently a third year student there. As far as the teaching goes it was very good when I was on the island....scored quite a bit above the USMLE step I mean. I am currently doing well in clinicals and have already been asked to return to my IM site to do residency there by the program director ( I am not even considering an IM residency). Why am I telling you all this? Ross will get you where you want to go as long as you have a good work ethic and you know why you are going to medical school.
The pertinent negatives.....you will have to get used to the food, studying when it is gorgeous outside.
PM me if you need any more info.
goodluck.

Glad to see you did well on Step!

 

[Skydiver]

Reasons why I chose Ross:

*Pass rates and residencies attained.
*Length of time on the island -- only 16 months
*Number of graduates -- More grads means that hosp., docs, staff and patients have either worked with one or at least know of one.
*Island - less distractions. I also believe that by overcoming its challenges will make me a better, more compassionate, and understanding doc.
*Labs, lecture halls, etc.

P.S. These are just my opinions, you should do your own research on any potential school you plan on attending.
I was also accepted to DO school, but for personal reasons, chose Ross instead.

 

[bulletproof]

Glad to see you did well on Step!

thanks. I hope this finds you and your family doing well. All goes well for me.....so glad to have step one down...can't wait to just tackle step two and get it out of the way.
🙂

 

[McGillGrad]

any positives on ross...what i need to know if i decide to go there...

If they accept you then that is positive enough...lol

Listen, we did not go to a US/Canadian school for obvious reasons. If Ross accepts us and if we have the intelligence and work ethic to do well under the worst conditions (i.e. asswipe classmates, average teaching and challenging environment), then Ross is a great choice.

I cannot stress the 'asswipe classmate' perspective enough. Unlike a US/Canadian medical school, you will not find the best of the best in academics surrounding, encouraging and motivating you. You will find sociopaths, drama queens, cheaters, scammers and leaches. If you can get past that then you are golden.

 

[Mz.Doctor]

euw sociopaths...i'll just stay antisocial on the island...
what about roomates and stuff do yall reccomend living alone or with someone

 

[McGillGrad]

euw sociopaths...i'll just stay antisocial on the island...
what about roomates and stuff do yall reccomend living alone or with someone

There are plenty of cool people, but you have to learn how to avoid certain types very quickly.

From what I have gathered you can find your own apartment quickly and at reasonable prices.

 

[Mom2five]

thanks. I hope this finds you and your family doing well. All goes well for me.....so glad to have step one down...can't wait to just tackle step two and get it out of the way.
🙂

Yr. 3 almost down. Step II studying time. We are all adjusting fine. Miss family but that's about the only thing that gets me down at times. Trying to keep the balance of work and play with the kids...I don't want them to remember their childhood as mom yelling at them all the time to clean. Balance is the key to life.

 

[Mz.Doctor]

well i got an interview for ross a day after my file's complete...

 

[Mom2five]

well i got an interview for ross a day after my file's complete...

Congratulations and good luck with everything. Also if you search my name I've posted lots of info. about Ross and Dominica. PM me if you have any other questions.

 

[drusso]

I cannot stress the 'asswipe classmate' perspective enough. Unlike a US/Canadian medical school, you will not find the best of the best in academics surrounding, encouraging and motivating you. You will find sociopaths, drama queens, cheaters, scammers and leaches. If you can get past that then you are golden.

Do you that's what Jordon Cohen, past president of the AAMC, has in mind when he says, "I think our model [the LCME-approved model] of undergraduate medical education offers the public something of special value-that it equips our students with a set of critically important, foundational capabilities and attitudes that the current format of GME does not and cannot provide." That is, just because you make it through a medical education you might not be qualified to practice medicine.

Moreover, how do you think recent "epidemiological evidence" linking problematic behavior in medical school to disciplinary actions by state medical boards effects the perception of off-shore medical schools? I'm not raising this issue to be inflammatory, but to merely stoke the embers of conversation. Soon, I think that there is going to be a huge change in how physicians in the USA are allowed to practice medicine.


Disciplinary action by medical boards and prior behavior in medical school.

Papadakis MA, Teherani A, Banach MA, Knettler TR, Rattner SL, Stern DT, Veloski JJ, Hodgson CS.

School of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Evidence supporting professionalism as a critical measure of competence in medical education is limited. In this case-control study, we investigated the association of disciplinary action against practicing physicians with prior unprofessional behavior in medical school. We also examined the specific types of behavior that are most predictive of disciplinary action against practicing physicians with unprofessional behavior in medical school. METHODS: The study included 235 graduates of three medical schools who were disciplined by one of 40 state medical boards between 1990 and 2003 (case physicians). The 469 control physicians were matched with the case physicians according to medical school and graduation year. Predictor variables from medical school included the presence or absence of narratives describing unprofessional behavior, grades, standardized-test scores, and demographic characteristics. Narratives were assigned an overall rating for unprofessional behavior. Those that met the threshold for unprofessional behavior were further classified among eight types of behavior and assigned a severity rating (moderate to severe). RESULTS: Disciplinary action by a medical board was strongly associated with prior unprofessional behavior in medical school (odds ratio, 3.0; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.9 to 4.8), for a population attributable risk of disciplinary action of 26 percent. The types of unprofessional behavior most strongly linked with disciplinary action were severe irresponsibility (odds ratio, 8.5; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.8 to 40.1) and severely diminished capacity for self-improvement (odds ratio, 3.1; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.2 to 8.2). Disciplinary action by a medical board was also associated with low scores on the Medical College Admission Test and poor grades in the first two years of medical school (1 percent and 7 percent population attributable risk, respectively), but the association with these variables was less strong than that with unprofessional behavior. CONCLUSIONS: In this case-control study, disciplinary action among practicing physicians by medical boards was strongly associated with unprofessional behavior in medical school. Students with the strongest association were those who were described as irresponsible or as having diminished ability to improve their behavior. Professionalism should have a central role in medical academics and throughout one's medical career. Copyright 2005 Massachusetts Medical Society.

Characteristics associated with physician discipline: a case-control study.

Kohatsu ND, Gould D, Ross LK, Fox PJ.

Medical Board of California, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: There has been increasing attention devoted to patient safety. However, the focus has been on system improvements rather than individual physician performance issues. The purpose of this study was to determine if there is an association between certain physician characteristics and the likelihood of medical board-imposed discipline. METHODS: Unmatched, case-control study of 890 physicians disciplined by the Medical Board of California between July 1, 1998, and June 30, 2001, compared with 2981 randomly selected, nondisciplined controls. Odds ratios (ORs) were calculated for physician discipline with respect to age, sex, board certification, international medical school education, and specialty. RESULTS: Male sex (OR, 2.76; P<.001), lack of board certification (OR, 2.22; P<.001), increasing age (OR, 1.64; P<.001), and international medical school education (OR, 1.36; P<.001) were associated with an elevated risk for disciplinary action that included license revocation, practice suspension, probation, and public reprimand. The following specialties had an increased risk for discipline compared with internal medicine: family practice (OR, 1.68; P =.002); general practice (OR, 1.97, P =.001); obstetrics and gynecology (OR, 2.25; P<.001); and psychiatry (OR, 1.87; P<.001). Physicians in pediatrics (OR, 0.62; P =.001) and radiology (OR, 0.36; P<.001) were less likely to receive discipline compared with those in internal medicine. CONCLUSION: Certain physician characteristics and medical specialties are associated with an increased likelihood of discipline.

 

[McGillGrad]

I understand the parallels that you are attempting to draw between those case studies and the general sort of student that receives an international (and more specifically Caribbean) medical education.

Although this is merely anecdotal, McGill university has accepted (and graduated) one male date-rapist and one bipolar female during my undergraduate years. This is to say that if McGill can allow these types of persons to become a doctor then so can any LCME-approved medical school.

The fact remains that there will be an increasingly higher percentage of questionable backgrounds accumulating in Caribbean schools (being directly proportional to the laxity of admissions).

That does not mean that LCME schools provide something special. It only proves that LCME approved schools have a more selective sieve that filters out those who are most likely to be detrimental to the medical profession.

Do you that's what Jordon Cohen, past president of the AAMC, has in mind when he says, "I think our model [the LCME-approved model] of undergraduate medical education offers the public something of special value-that it equips our students with a set of critically important, foundational capabilities and attitudes that the current format of GME does not and cannot provide." That is, just because you make it through a medical education you might not be qualified to practice medicine.

Moreover, how do you think recent "epidemiological evidence" linking problematic behavior in medical school to disciplinary actions by state medical boards effects the perception of off-shore medical schools? I'm not raising this issue to be inflammatory, but to merely stoke the embers of conversation. Soon, I think that there is going to be a huge change in how physicians in the USA are allowed to practice medicine.

 

[psrai85]

I understand the parallels that you are attempting to draw between those case studies and the general sort of student that receives an international (and more specifically Caribbean) medical education.

Although this is merely anecdotal, McGill university has accepted (and graduated) one male date-rapist and one bipolar female during my undergraduate years. This is to say that if McGill can allow these types of persons to become a doctor then so can any LCME-approved medical school.

The fact remains that there will be an increasingly higher percentage of questionable backgrounds accumulating in Caribbean schools (being directly proportional to the laxity of admissions).

That does not mean that LCME schools provide something special. It only proves that LCME approved schools have a more selective sieve that filters out those who are most likely to be detrimental to the medical profession.

Hey Mcgill grad,

Do u go to Ross, what year??

 

[Skip Intro]

Do you that's what Jordon Cohen, past president of the AAMC, has in mind when he says, "I think our model [the LCME-approved model] of undergraduate medical education offers the public something of special value-that it equips our students with a set of critically important, foundational capabilities and attitudes that the current format of GME does not and cannot provide." That is, just because you make it through a medical education you might not be qualified to practice medicine.

Hmmm... interesting you quote the AAMC. Did you even go to medical school, drusso?

Moreover, how do you think recent "epidemiological evidence" linking problematic behavior in medical school to disciplinary actions by state medical boards effects the perception of off-shore medical schools? I'm not raising this issue to be inflammatory, but to merely stoke the embers of conversation. Soon, I think that there is going to be a huge change in how physicians in the USA are allowed to practice medicine.

I think the studies you quote cite "international grads" and say nothing specifically about Caribbean (a.k.a. off-shore) grads, so they are specifically meaningless in this instance. Likewise, being a male has a higher odds-ratio than being a foreign grad. Are you suggesting that we should prohibit men from practicing medicine?

Also, the Hartford Courant in a landmark study about 2 years ago produced an extensive list of "worst medical schools" based on FOI access to disciplinary actions against physicians from available data from Ohio, California, and a national watchdog database. Of the top four consistently worst schools in that report, two were U.S. schools. None were Caribbean. Furthermore, on the entire list, there were dozens and dozens of U.S. allopathic schools that were ranked lower than the "big three" Caribbean schools.

You want to "stoke the embers of conversation" about the subject, but you are highlighting incomplete conclusions, cherry-picking, and leaving out key facts. Are there bad schools out there that produce bad doctors? Certainly. But many of them exist in the U.S. This is why there is a licensure and peer-review process at state medical boards. And these boards should exist to uniformly apply and, better yet, raise standards of vigilance - not prohibit people from practicing medicien a priori based on some elitist, xenophobic ideology that the "U.S. system" is, by default, superior.

Bad people get into the medical field. The data actually shows that the Caribbean schools probably do a better job of weeding them out before they get the chance to completely "make it through a medical education." If you actually understood the reality of the situation, you'd know that U.S. schools are far more likely to give you a second-chance than the Caribbean ones.

-Skip Intro
Ross University Class of 2005
PGY-1, and at currently at the top of my internship class (with the in-service scores and departmental evaluations to prove it)

 

[drusso]

Hmmm... interesting you quote the AAMC. Didn't you go to an osteopathic school, drusso?

Indeed. I think that the AAMC has been leading the way in defining issues of professionalism and accreditation with respect to licensing physicians. AACOM has been involved and working with AAMC, but not nearly to the degree that AAMC has. In fact, AACOM recently honored Dr. Cohen for his outstanding contributions to medical education:

AACOM honors three for contributions to education

I quote the AAMC literature because it is what I'm most familiar with and reviewed in health policy classes---I'm sure that AACOM has various "Me-too" briefs on similar issues that I could quote if it would make you feel better.

I think the studies you quote cite "international grads" and say nothing specifically about Caribbean (a.k.a. off-shore) grads, so they are specifically meaningless in this instance. Likewise, being a male has a higher odds-ratio than being a foreign grad. Are you suggesting that we should prohibit men from practicing medicine?

No, but I'm trying to point out that medical education researchers and policy-makers are studying this issue and framing questions in interesting ways.

Also, the Hartford Courant in a landmark study about 2 years ago produced an extensive list of "worst medical schools" based on FOI access to disciplinary actions against physicians from available data from New York, California, and nationally. Of the top four consistently worst schools in that report, two were U.S. schools. On the entire list, there were dozens and dozens of U.S. allopathic schools that were ranked lower than the "big three" Caribbean schools.

I think that all medical schools have problems. The question is, to what degree are the problems better or worse based upon specific institutional characteristics? The University of Minnesota used to screen applicants for medical school with the MMPI up unti the late 80's I think. Maybe there needs to be better screening and assessment of "non-cognitive" factors when selecting applicants for medical school.

You want to "stoke the embers of conversation" about the subject, but you are highlighting incomplete conclusions, cherry-picking, and leaving out key facts. Are their bad schools that produce bad doctors out there? Certainly. But many of them exist in the U.S. This is why there is a licensure and peer-review process at state medical boards. And these boards should exist to uniformly apply and, better yet, raise standards of vigilance - not prohibit people from practicing medicien a priori based on some elitist, xenophobic ideology that the "U.S. system" is, by default, superior.

I wasn't trying to do an exhaustive literature review. I was trying to do a provocative literature review. State medical boards are becoming increasingly overburdened by the entire process. There is an emerging consensus that *individual* licensure may not be an adequate marker for competency or quality any longer and more consideration is being given toward *institutional* accreditation. The move toward institutional accreditation as a proxy for competency (or quality) outcomes is interesting. There is plenty of precedent for it in healthcare: Residency programs are accredited by either the ACGME or the AOA; hospitals are accredited either by JACHO or the AOA; health plans are accredited by various agencies, etc. Who accredits the medical education process? The LCME and the AOA respectively. If a residency program has enough complaints filed against it goes on probation or can lose its accreditation. Ditto for hospitals and health plans. When is the last time you heard of a medical school (MD or DO) having its accreditation yanked for producing "bad" physicians? I have raised these questions before in other threads:

Quality Concerns

I raise the issue to carribean graduates because: 1) You're unrepresented stake-holders; 2) How this issue evolves and resolves will likely impact the whole off-shore medical education enterprise considerably; 3) The issue affects the whole work-force/COGME/outsourcing/"FMG Brain Drain from native countries" situation.

I believe what's going to happen is that the Federation of State Medical Boards is going to start asking the LCME and the AOA some tough questions about their procedures and processes that ensure that graduates possess the attributes (knowledge, skills, and attitudes)to practice medicine. In fact, they already have:

FSMB Special Committee on the Evaluation of Undergraduate Medical Education

Maybe US News and World Report will begin publishing state board disciplinary rates and malpractice rates on an institutional basis along side MCATs and GPA's? I could imagine a very creative law firm filing a class action suit against an entire medical school for damages related to "defective preparation of graduates to engage in the practice of medicine." I'm not saying it would win on its merits, but I'm saying that lesser arguments have prevailed. All it takes is framing medical education not as an individual commodity, but as a public good.

Bad people get into the medical field. The data actually shows that the Caribbean schools probably do a better job of weeding them out before they get the chance to completely "make it through a medical education." If you actually understood the reality of the situation, you'd know that U.S. schools are far more likely to give you a second-chance than the Caribbean ones.

If that's true, then I think that caribbean schools need to get that information out into the peer-reviewed medical education literature.

 

[mindy?]

I was also accepted to DO school, but for personal reasons, chose Ross instead.

I'm in the same boat as you. Except that I haven't decided for sure which one to choose. I'm not too crazy about the whole cranial sacral business. Or spending time learning OMM. I'm starting to lean more toward Ross.