Opinions on terminal surgeries

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MixedPracticeJunkie

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Not looking to start a heated debate- just wondering what everyone's opinions are on terminal surgeries.

Right now, I absolutely do not want to take part in them or support a school that does terminal surgeries with my tuition.

Specific examples/cases would be helpful, in case I am imagining the worst.

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As far as I know, most school's don't require that you participate in them or even include them anymore.

Just keep in mind that any of the schools, particularly those with a lot of research, likely have terminal surgeries/procecdures going on elsewhere on the campus.
 
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As far as I know, most school's don't require that you participate in them or even include them anymore.

Just keep in mind that any of the schools, particularly those with a lot of research, likely have terminal surgeries going on elsewhere on the campus.



You're currently a student at UPenn I'm assuming...do they have them?
 
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i think the knee-jerk reaction is that this must be the worst thing in the world, but i think when you fully understand what terminal surgeries mean and why they are performed, a more rational understanding and even acceptance occurs. its a far more complex topic than anyone ever wishes to believe.
 
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I'm completely for them. They aren't bad, they aren't evil, the animals aren't mistreated, they don't suffer and vet students learn so much that they wouldn't be able to in any other way.
 
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i think the knee-jerk reaction is that this must be the worst thing in the world, but i think when you fully understand what terminal surgeries mean and why they are performed, a more rational understanding and even acceptance occurs. its a far more complex topic than anyone ever wishes to believe.


What exactly do you mean by fully understand them? I know they're to show students things they couldn't learn any other way. Am I missing something?
 
I'm not sure what the OP is really looking for. She doesn't want an argument but then goes with the heavy handed language of "I absolutely do not want to take part in them." Seems a little .... Odd.

Ok. Great.

Good people disagree on the topic. What more do you want? Personally, now that I'm through vet school, I wish we had done terminal procedures - a lot of them. Other people who have gotten through feel like they are totally unnecessary.

So what, exactly, is the point? If you just want to know which schools do them, call the schools.

This topic has been beaten to death before.
 
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I'm not sure what the OP is really looking for. She doesn't want an argument but then goes with the heavy handed language of "I absolutely do not want to take part in them." Seems a little .... Odd.

Ok. Great.

Good people disagree on the topic. What more do you want? Personally, now that I'm through vet school, I wish we had done terminal procedures - a lot of them. Other people who have gotten through feel like they are totally unnecessary.

So what, exactly, is the point? If you just want to know which schools do them, call the schools.

This topic has been beaten to death before.
i feel similarly. i feel like there is a ton of stuff that my clients and patients NEED me to be able to do that i am not proficient at or even know where to start. there are many animals euthanized daily that suffer at inhumane hands and without love. imagine what vet students could do for them in their final hours.
 
Not looking to start a heated debate- just wondering what everyone's opinions are on terminal surgeries.

Right now, I absolutely do not want to take part in them or support a school that does terminal surgeries with my tuition.

Specific examples/cases would be helpful, in case I am imagining the worst.

Why are you so adamantly against them? You may be imagining the worst if you haven't done research on the rules and regulations that overlook terminal surgeries in both the classroom and in research - and animal use in general.

I recommend you look up AAALAC and what IACUC is. -These are 2 (of im sure many) different regulating bodies over animal use in education and research.
 
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Not looking to start a heated debate- just wondering what everyone's opinions are on terminal surgeries.

Right now, I absolutely do not want to take part in them or support a school that does terminal surgeries with my tuition.

Specific examples/cases would be helpful, in case I am imagining the worst.

You do realize that at all vet schools and parent institutions there is animal research going on - that in the vast, vast majority of cases ends with the sacrifice of the animal and often after various degrees of purposefully-inflicted unpleasant disease - that your tuition will help indirectly or even directly support?

And bull****. You don't bring up a topic like this, give a very black-and-white, controversial opinion, ask everyone else's opinion, and say you aren't looking to start a debate. Come on now.
 
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I think there's a lot of misinformation about terminal surgeries out there. I had to explain to someone once no, you don't "keep a dog in a cage for it's whole life, performing various surgeries on it for practice, continually waking it up, and then eventually euthanizing it when it can no longer live." I don't think terminal surgery patients are woken up at all, but I could be wrong about that. Frankly, I'd rather perform a new/complex surgery on a terminal patient than a cadaver, and I'd rather perform a terminal surgery in school than to have a procedure come up in practice without having had any experience before.
 
Not looking to start a heated debate, but doesn't bother to use the search function to find the numerous conversations on this topic that have happened before, and gives a strong opinion towards one side.

Right.
 
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I don't think terminal surgery patients are woken up at all, but I could be wrong about that. Frankly, I'd rather perform a new/complex surgery on a terminal patient than a cadaver, and I'd rather perform a terminal surgery in school than to have a procedure come up in practice without having had any experience before.

By definition, a terminal surgery means the animal does not wake up from anesthesia/are euthanized on the table while unconscious. In my IACUC experiences, it's uncommon for anything other than NHP to go through repeated, major surgeries (opening the body cavity).
 
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Not looking to start a heated debate- just wondering what everyone's opinions are on terminal surgeries.

You don't want a debate, but you want to know what others opinions are? Then don't ask for examples, just take a yes/no poll.

As has been said, good and rational people will disagree on this. If you don't want a debate on the issue, don't bring the issue up.



I think they're very important, I'm glad I had the opportunity to benefit from them, and I'm sorry some schools have discontinued them.
 
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Where I'm from, dogs and cats get euthanized in the hundreds every day due to overpopulation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using those animals for the betterment of medicine. They're going to die anyway so why not make their death count for something? That's my stance on it.
 
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I wish Glasgow had had them, or at least more experience for surgery. We didn't even have a junior surgery course like a lot of schools. Both schools I have worked for in the states get donations in, and final years are able to practice skills on them ante and post mortem, which is an invaluable experience in my opinion.
 
It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.
 
It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.
if you really want to do this, search "terminal surgeries" and you'll be able to look without this kind of response.
 
It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.

Saying you want an opinion without a debate on a very polarized subject is like asking if people think Jesus was the son of God, but you don't want a religious debate. You just can't wade into the pool and not cause ripples in the surface.
 
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It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.
No one attacked you.

Asking for opinions but immediately (and in a rather judgemental manner) stating you will not attend a school that performs terminal surgeries doesn't exactly give the best starting point for the conversation you were hoping for.
 
It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.

If all you wanted was information on which schools do terminal surgeries as part of their curriculum, why not call the schools to which you are considering applying?

If all you wanted was to understand positions on it, why not review previous discussions about it via the search function? (And why bother making it so clear that you hold an extremely idealistic view on it if all you want is to gather information?)

If you genuinely thought you could just ask for points of view on a hotly debated topic without starting a debate ..... That's just naive and foolish.
 
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Terminal surgery= Opportunity to learn and advance your skill

(the welfare of the animal always being at the forefront meaning they do not suffer)
(better to learn in a terminal surgery then when you are a practicing vet and the owner is waiting in the waiting room with no idea you have zero experience operating aside from spay and neuter)
 
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I keep hearing people say you'd hate to learn on a clients dog....and it's true. But you're naive if you think even with terminal surgeries that you'll have practice at all the common procedures before graduating
 
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It is possible to give your opinion without responding to others, thus debating...I'm aware that this is done every day in research. My question pertained to DVM curricula, so those who attacked the 3 sentences of the original post can take a step back and relax. I really am shocked that I'm receiving such backlash when I simply wanted to see (and maybe understand) others' points of view.

Might want to look up the definition of debating.
 
Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?
 
Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?

You guys also get a much longer hands-on training period than most vets do - internship, residency, fellowship etc. More than half of graduating vets go straight into practice after one year of clinics, and there is not much surgical hand-holding. You need to learn and learn fast - etc including difficult ones like, say, intestinal R&A that you don't want to "practice" on a client animal.
 
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Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?
you are also way more specialized in human med. You don't have GPs practicing soft tissue surgeries. We do. We're still mostly GP/Jack-of-all-trades.
 
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I keep hearing people say you'd hate to learn on a clients dog....and it's true. But you're naive if you think even with terminal surgeries that you'll have practice at all the common procedures before graduating

Agreed. But I don't think it makes sense to take that to the extreme of saying "since we can't practice every conceivable procedure under the sun we should just not practice any of them." I would have much rather practiced some of the more common soft-tissue surgeries that I do on a regular basis in school in a controlled, less frenetic, less stressful environment than having to do them for the first time at 2AM on a client animal with a compromised cardiovascular status or other potential anesthesia problems. My first FB (not that you need to give a teaching animal a FB, but you can certainly do an enterotomy, gastrotomy, and then an RnA, etc.), my first splenectomy, my first .... etc.

Some people seem to take that position ("can't learn all procedures, so why do terminal surgeries at all?"), and it doesn't make sense to me.

In school, I did my first procedures like that in one lab on a recently-euthanized pig. They kept saying "Oh, it's pretty similar."

It's not. And now that I have the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done terminal surgeries. Even though it's worked out ok. (Which perhaps is a little ... contradictory?)

Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?

How many MDs go straight from their 4 years of training out into practice and do things like emergency splenectomies on a patient that's bleeding out? (It's a genuine question: my impression is essentially zero - at the VERY least they would have done a residency, and probably training beyond that. But maybe I'm wrong.) I did my first GDV something like 8 days after graduation - you have no idea how much I swore that night. I was still trying to figure out what drugs I had in the hospital, much less how to do a GDV (admittedly, it's a straightforward procedure.... but nothing is straightforward your first time). So yes, I think it's important to get better surgical training in vet school.
 
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Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?
really? It was my understanding that some schools do perform terminal surgeries still, but it's just that dogs are no longer used. I've heard about kittens/puppies being used to practice pediatric procedures and whatnot. Is my information outdated?
 
Agreed. But I don't think it makes sense to take that to the extreme of saying "since we can't practice every conceivable procedure under the sun we should just not practice any of them." I would have much rather practiced some of the more common soft-tissue surgeries that I do on a regular basis in school in a controlled, less frenetic, less stressful environment than having to do them for the first time at 2AM on a client animal with a compromised cardiovascular status or other potential anesthesia problems. My first FB (not that you need to give a teaching animal a FB, but you can certainly do an enterotomy, gastrotomy, and then an RnA, etc.), my first splenectomy, my first .... etc.
Oh, I didn't mean that at all. I meant that doing those advanced surgery classes still won't completely prepare you for the realities of what we do. You will still have firsts in practice. And that's ok.
 
Not that this is really my territory, but why do you really need to do terminal surgeries? I mean, yeah, you get to see things that you otherwise wouldn't see, but we don't do terminal surgeries in human medicine and can learn things just fine. Just curious about the overall utility of them. I mean, I get the "we're going to euthanize them anyway, may as well learn something" point, but are such things actually that high yield?

In human medicine they have the advantage of having some pretty advanced tools (virtual reality, simulations, modelling), which just isn't available in vet schools. And the ability to learn less common and more complex procedures on patients who breath, bleed, and bruise is pretty important, IMO.....cadavers just don't respond the same way.
 
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Oh, I didn't mean that at all. I meant that doing those advanced surgery classes still won't completely prepare you for the realities of what we do. You will still have firsts in practice. And that's ok.

I know you didn't. But that argument is one of the reasons some people toss out as an excuse to not do any terminal surgeries at all.

You definitely will have firsts - there's just no way vet school can run you through every procedure under the sun. But I do feel like terminal surgeries would give you a higher degree of comfort and expose you to more anatomy and a variety of techniques and procedures so that you're better prepared. I feel like I would have been, anyway. And I'm one of those students that went out of my way to get surgical experience, even.

People also like to say "soft tissue surgery is soft tissue surgery" and that if you just do a ton of spays in vet school (like on a high-volume rotation or something) that it will make up for not doing other procedures.

I agree that it will definitely help your soft-tissue handling skills. Your knots will be more secure. You'll suture faster (ok, except my slow ass suturing - there's a reason I staple everything and make the RDVM deal with it). But I really think people would be better off with a little more variety. I wish I had had some.
 
I know you didn't. But that argument is one of the reasons some people toss out as an excuse to not do any terminal surgeries at all.

You definitely will have firsts - there's just no way vet school can run you through every procedure under the sun. But I do feel like terminal surgeries would give you a higher degree of comfort and expose you to more anatomy and a variety of techniques and procedures so that you're better prepared. I feel like I would have been, anyway. And I'm one of those students that went out of my way to get surgical experience, even.

People also like to say "soft tissue surgery is soft tissue surgery" and that if you just do a ton of spays in vet school (like on a high-volume rotation or something) that it will make up for not doing other procedures.

I agree that it will definitely help your soft-tissue handling skills. Your knots will be more secure. You'll suture faster (ok, except my slow ass suturing - there's a reason I staple everything and make the RDVM deal with it). But I really think people would be better off with a little more variety. I wish I had had some.
yup. I agree.
 
really? It was my understanding that some schools do perform terminal surgeries still, but it's just that dogs are no longer used. I've heard about kittens/puppies being used to practice pediatric procedures and whatnot. Is my information outdated?
I'd also heard that a few use pigs and sheep for other procedures where they used to use dogs.
 
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The pig terminal surgery lab at my school was probably hands-down the most helpful use of five hours I've had in vet school. I wish it had been longer and that we had more than one. I think using swine was an OK happy medium to avoid the bad PR of companion animals, but find it pretty amusing that purpose-bred pigs are seen as better than using animals that are going to be euthanized.
 
I'd also heard that a few use pigs and sheep for other procedures where they used to use dogs.
Especially for cardio stuff. I mean I'm no med student so I could be easily wrong. I know that pigs are definitely used for medical training outside of school at least (didn't someone discuss pigs used for military training not too long ago?).
 
Especially for cardio stuff. I mean I'm no med student so I could be easily wrong. I know that pigs are definitely used for medical training outside of school at least (didn't someone discuss pigs used for military training not too long ago?).
Yup, over in the what are my chances thread
 
I'll be doing a terminal on a pig this year (2nd yr). Our opt-out is having it euthanized before doing the same surgery, so it's wasteful imo not to take advantage. I'm not sure what the 3rd yrs are doing in respect to terminals, if there are any.

These animals are purchased from the food chain, so the destination has not changed and if anything, is probably less stressful than slaughter.

I'm curious if you have the same stance in this scenario?
 
I will add: I do think it should be opt-in/opt-out/something like that. It's ok, in my mind, to be opposed to it. I just don't think that opposition to something that is legitimately a gray-area item should mean taking away MY chance to do it. In other words, I don't think people who are opposed to it should be pushing to the lengths of saying nobody else should have the opportunity; I feel like that's an overstep.

Also, I think some students need it more than others based on their anticipated plans after graduation.
 
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Is anyone else bothered by the fact that somehow it's OK to do terminal surgery on a pig but not on a dog?
 
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really? It was my understanding that some schools do perform terminal surgeries still, but it's just that dogs are no longer used. I've heard about kittens/puppies being used to practice pediatric procedures and whatnot. Is my information outdated?
I think the last one that still did was Uniformed Services University, likely because many of their graduates would enter the field with only one year of internship as flight surgeons/battalion surgeons.
Agreed. But I don't think it makes sense to take that to the extreme of saying "since we can't practice every conceivable procedure under the sun we should just not practice any of them." I would have much rather practiced some of the more common soft-tissue surgeries that I do on a regular basis in school in a controlled, less frenetic, less stressful environment than having to do them for the first time at 2AM on a client animal with a compromised cardiovascular status or other potential anesthesia problems. My first FB (not that you need to give a teaching animal a FB, but you can certainly do an enterotomy, gastrotomy, and then an RnA, etc.), my first splenectomy, my first .... etc.

Some people seem to take that position ("can't learn all procedures, so why do terminal surgeries at all?"), and it doesn't make sense to me.

In school, I did my first procedures like that in one lab on a recently-euthanized pig. They kept saying "Oh, it's pretty similar."

It's not. And now that I have the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done terminal surgeries. Even though it's worked out ok. (Which perhaps is a little ... contradictory?)



How many MDs go straight from their 4 years of training out into practice and do things like emergency splenectomies on a patient that's bleeding out? (It's a genuine question: my impression is essentially zero - at the VERY least they would have done a residency, and probably training beyond that. But maybe I'm wrong.) I did my first GDV something like 8 days after graduation - you have no idea how much I swore that night. I was still trying to figure out what drugs I had in the hospital, much less how to do a GDV (admittedly, it's a straightforward procedure.... but nothing is straightforward your first time). So yes, I think it's important to get better surgical training in vet school.
Nowadays the least experience you can have to perform surgery would be doing general surgeries in a rural area as a FM doc, but even that is largely a thing of the past. Five years of general surgery is pretty much the minimum you'll have if you're operating on people. I didn't realize that vets had zero required internship or residency, it just seems crazy. I mean, not that making training longer when you're already that far in debt would be the best idea, but holy crap, I can't imagine going into practice like that with such a wide number of species to deal with and so many potential presentations and procedures. Guess it really makes the whole terminal surgery thing a lot more practical than human med.
 
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The idea of purposefully breeding animals strictly for terminal surgeries is a tough pill to swallow for me personally, and I say that as someone who has spent a lot of time in the lab animal world. I think terminal surgeries themselves are a great learning tool (and I absolutely would have participated) but I'd rather get animals from shelters that are going to be euthanized anyway than breeding any animal (dog, pig, whatever) just for this purpose. It's wasteful, in my opinion.
 
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pretty sure the terminal surgeries we did were sourced from lab animals that had been used for other purposes first. But that may have changed
 
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Yes, I know the reason is public perception; that's why it bothers me.
 
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pretty sure the terminal surgeries we did were sourced from lab animals that had been used for other purposes first. But that may have changed

This is what Mizzou does.
 
I know you didn't. But that argument is one of the reasons some people toss out as an excuse to not do any terminal surgeries at all.

You definitely will have firsts - there's just no way vet school can run you through every procedure under the sun. But I do feel like terminal surgeries would give you a higher degree of comfort and expose you to more anatomy and a variety of techniques and procedures so that you're better prepared. I feel like I would have been, anyway. And I'm one of those students that went out of my way to get surgical experience, even.

People also like to say "soft tissue surgery is soft tissue surgery" and that if you just do a ton of spays in vet school (like on a high-volume rotation or something) that it will make up for not doing other procedures.

I agree that it will definitely help your soft-tissue handling skills. Your knots will be more secure. You'll suture faster (ok, except my slow ass suturing - there's a reason I staple everything and make the RDVM deal with it). But I really think people would be better off with a little more variety. I wish I had had some.

Yeah, cutting into and suturing the stomach isn't the same as removing a uterus. Intestinal R&A is much different too. So is a splenectomy, just in regards to how much more tension you can put on those sutures compared to a spay. I'm very happy to have had experience with all of those things and more prior to practice. Does that mean I can just jump in and do it again? Hell, no, I'll still need some review but at least I've now felt, seen and know the general steps.
 
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