Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

[EuroPhysician]

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

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[cool_vkb]

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[Feli]

$50-60k is probably just the base salary; the total annual income figure is usually quite different (you add incentive, consider benefits, etc)...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=396294

 

[NatCh]

In the past base salary was around $60K immediately post-Residency for new Associates (Associate means "a podiatrist employed by another"). The idea was to pay a lower salary as they built up their practice. Some Associates had incentive bonuses built into their contract, so they started at $60K but if they were very productive they could make more. A practice owner though could expect to make double to triple that amount once up to speed.

I am reading from all of these exceptionally-trained, incoming young podiatrists that the base salaries are now in the six figures! Bravo!

 

[jonwill]

In the past base salary was around $60K immediately post-Residency for new Associates (Associate means "a podiatrist employed by another"). The idea was to pay a lower salary as they built up their practice. Some Associates had incentive bonuses built into their contract, so they started at $60K but if they were very productive they could make more. A practice owner though could expect to make double to triple that amount once up to speed.

I am reading from all of these exceptionally-trained, incoming young podiatrists that the base salaries are now in the six figures! Bravo!

One of the third years in my program was just hired on by a group of pods and his base is 105K. With incentives, he'll stand to make mid to upper 100's first year out.

 

[NatCh]

One of the third years in my program was just hired on by a group of pods and his base is 105K. With incentives, he'll stand to make mid to upper 100's first year out.

Boy, what a change from a decade ago. I recall one of the editors of a major podiatry website advocated paying new Associates $25,000 the first year out. That had me shaking my head in disgust. That was only about five years ago too.

 

[jonwill]

Boy, what a change from a decade ago. I recall one of the editors of a major podiatry website advocated paying new Associates $25,000 the first year out. That had me shaking my head in disgust. That was only about five years ago too.

What a shame. But then again, if someone is stupid enough to sign something like that, than I'm sure there are a lot of guys willing to pay it!!!

 

[NatCh]

What a shame. But then again, if someone is stupid enough to sign something like that, than I'm sure there are a lot of guys willing to pay it!!!

I suspected it was an attempt by that Editor to drive starting salaries down so he'd have to pay less, because I couldn't think of any other possibility. I wonder if anyone took his recommendation seriously? People pay their minimally-trained office staff more than that.

 

[Creflo]

my faculty advisor at AZPOD said you can expect to make about 100k out of residency, i wouldn't know firsthand as I'm a first year student.

 

[krabmas]

my faculty advisor at AZPOD said you can expect to make about 100k out of residency, i wouldn't know firsthand as I'm a first year student.

You can not expect anything. This may be true if you are in the right location and had a decent residency. If you (in general) plan to coast through pod school and residency you will not get these offers.

Just like any other job/profession you need to work hard to be successful.

 

[Creflo]

You can not expect anything. This may be true if you are in the right location and had a decent residency. If you (in general) plan to coast through pod school and residency you will not get these offers.

Just like any other job/profession you need to work hard to be successful.

if you coast here (AZ), you'll coast right out the door...

 

[Cheetos]

if you coast here (AZ), you'll coast right out the door...

With that 100% passing rate here in AZ, I doubt we do any coasting here. It appears we have already lost a couple of ppl out of the original starting 39 and it's only been 4 weeks.

PS. How goes the studying?

 

[Feli]

With that 100% passing rate here in AZ, I doubt we do any coasting here. It appears we have already lost a couple of ppl out of the original starting 39 and it's only been 4 weeks...

Coasting doesn't just refer to grades. The first two years just lay the groundwork for the clinical sciences and journal reading...

You will really start to see a gap between students when you start 3rd year clinics. Clinic is mostly pass/fail or a pretty easy "A" or "B" if it's graded, so you can do as much or as little as you want on most rotations. Some people will show up early, grab chart after chart to see as many patients as they can, ask good questions, and go home to read textbook chapters or journal articles. They'll read about stuff they saw in clinic, were asked by attendings in clinics, or are just wanting to learn for personal, research, or residency interests. On the other end, some people will show up late, ask for days off or early dismissal, skip classes, read the minimum, etc. GPA in the early years is important, but it's not the only thing.

As for AZ's pass rate, it's good so far, but the first group of test takers was only 12 or 13 people (weeded down from 25 or so?) and I'm not sure the size of this past year's group? Also, nobody there has even taken pt2 yet. It's great that the program appears strong in early measurables, but keep in mind that they're on their best behavior to get accredited... it might not be the best idea to start bragging just yet. Once AZ's pod program gets full approval, class sizes will start increasing while attrition rate goes down, and that'll be the real test to see if the school can stay on par with DMU and Scholl in terms of board pass rate with bigger classes. Nonetheless, I applaud any pod program where the students are in classes with MD/DO students. That should largely prevent the excessive curving that some pod schools would otherwise do, and it should prevent unqualified people from graduating. Qualifed or not, some people are still just lazy or will always do the minimum, though. Many of those people are smart enough to pass, but it probably doesn't make them good docs or ones who will be getting six figure job offers...

 

[Creflo]

Coasting doesn't just refer to grades. The first two years just lay the groundwork for the clinical sciences and journal reading...

You will really start to see a gap between students when you start 3rd year clinics. Clinic is mostly pass/fail or a pretty easy "A" or "B" if it's graded, so you can do as much or as little as you want on most rotations. Some people will show up early, grab chart after chart to see as many patients as they can, ask good questions, and go home to read textbook chapters or journal articles. They'll read about stuff they saw in clinic, were asked by attendings in clinics, or are just wanting to learn for personal, research, or residency interests. On the other end, some people will show up late, ask for days off or early dismissal, skip classes, read the minimum, etc. GPA in the early years is important, but it's not the only thing.

As for AZ's pass rate, it's good so far, but the first group of test takers was only 12 or 13 people (weeded down from 25 or so?) and I'm not sure the size of this past year's group? Also, nobody there has even taken pt2 yet. It's great that the program appears strong in early measurables, but keep in mind that they're on their best behavior to get accredited... it might not be the best idea to start bragging just yet. Once AZ's pod program gets full approval, class sizes will start increasing while attrition rate goes down, and that'll be the real test to see if the school can stay on par with DMU and Scholl in terms of board pass rate with bigger classes. Nonetheless, I applaud any pod program where the students are in classes with MD/DO students. That should largely prevent the excessive curving that some pod schools would otherwise do, and it should prevent unqualified people from graduating. Qualifed or not, some people are still just lazy or will always do the minimum, though. Many of those people are smart enough to pass, but it probably doesn't make them good docs or ones who will be getting six figure job offers...

we're all in this together, i think the point is that in order to expect 100k you have to work hard. by this point i think that's just a given for all of us, it holds true for our profession or any other. you have to work hard to be successful.

to me the bottom line is that whether you graduate from your school or mine, we all know the foot and ankle better than anyone else. its like getting a chicken sandwich from mcdonalds vs. chick fil a. go to the specialist...

 

[EuroPhysician]

One website showed a starting salary for a Podiatrist being about 120K a year, this was from Allied Physicians. Is this accurate for a fully trained podiatrist? I really don't want to spend over 100K for a degree and wind up not being able to pay back that loan not to mention not be able to make a decent living. Because I was hearing about a number of DO programs that were taking Podiatrists to be retrained as physicians.

 

[cel083]

we're all in this together, i think the point is that in order to expect 100k you have to work hard. by this point i think that's just a given for all of us, it holds true for our profession or any other. you have to work hard to be successful.

to me the bottom line is that whether you graduate from your school or mine, we all know the foot and ankle better than anyone else. its like getting a chicken sandwich from mcdonalds vs. chick fil a. go to the specialist...

Just an off-handed remark: McDonald's used to have excellent chicken sandwiches.

 

[El Sol]

Just an off-handed remark: McDonald's used to have excellent chicken sandwiches.

 

[Feli]

What a shame. But then again, if someone is stupid enough to sign [a low paying contract] like that, than I'm sure there are a lot of guys willing to pay it!!!

That's the bottom line IMO^

The people with poor/mediocre residency training and strong desire to stay in one certain metro area are the ones who really run into trouble and end up unhappy from what I've seen. They don't have much demand for their services since there are many many pods who can do what they can, and there's also a lot of supply (graduating local residents who want to work in that metro area). That combo of little demand and lots of supply makes for not a whole lot of options and a balance of power that's greatly skewed towards the pod practices looking for an associate in those pod-heavy areas. It lets them offer low salaries and still find an associate. If someone has mediocre training and wants $80k for a job another mediocre guy will accept for $55k just to stay in city X, they'll just hire him.

The best situation to put yourself in is always being the pod with the best possible training and good connections in the field (which are usually via the docs directing the best training programs). I'm sure being flexible on the job location is also a way to get a higher salary, but if you have training resume that's a head and shoulders above other applicants and can do what a lot of other pods can't, you should still be able to get a good job that pays more $ than other offerings in the area.

 

[tea_tu]

I just wanted to put my two pennies in...
That salary range accounts for all pods, both part-time and full-timers. I haven't heard anything less than 120k starting out of residency, full-time.

 

[Stafocker]

One website showed a starting salary for a Podiatrist being about 120K a year, this was from Allied Physicians. Is this accurate for a fully trained podiatrist? I really don't want to spend over 100K for a degree and wind up not being able to pay back that loan not to mention not be able to make a decent living. Because I was hearing about a number of DO programs that were taking Podiatrists to be retrained as physicians.

This was posted on another forum by APMA:

Here are some newly released statistics for income of podiatric physicians from the 2007 APMA Podiatric Practice Survey:

1. A dramatic increase in the gross incomes of practice owners was found for 2006. The median gross income in 2006 was $400,000, compared to an estimated $275,000 in 2004.
2. A much higher percentage of members reported gross incomes over $500,000 in 2006 (37%) than in 2004 (20%) and 2001 (14%).
3. Net income in 2006 increased substantially from 2004. The median net income in 2006 was $150,000, compared to an estimated $137,500 in 2004.
4. Net income in 2006 was higher for members with high volumes of total patient visits and for members with board certification from the American Board of Podiatric Surgery (ABPS).
__________________
Source: The American Podiatric Medical Association

Also, those DO programs are training DPM's to be DO's, but most them continue being Podiatrists, just with a DPM/DO after their name. Remember, that not all DO's make the same amount, just like MD's don't all do well. There's a big difference between primary care or pediatricians compared to Orthopedic or General Surgeons in wage disparity. Having another degree definitely helps with marketing and building a practice, though i'd have to check if it helps with insurance reimbursements. Also, it gives you a wider appreciation of education (and more debt ....)

Remember only a DPM (with a PMS36 residency or equivalent) allows you to be a surgeon at most hospitals, surgery centers, etc, but having a DO or MD does NOT guarantee that at all! You have to then prove that you have trained in Surgery or a residency that gives them that privilege. DPM automatically makes you a surgeon (after a PMS36 residency)... DO's and MD's, it's not guaranteed.

 

[krabmas]

Also, those DO programs are training DPM's to be DO's, but most them continue being Podiatrists, just with a DPM/DO after their name. Remember, that not all DO's make the same amount, just like MD's don't all do well. There's a big difference between primary care or pediatricians compared to Orthopedic or General Surgeons in wage disparity. Having another degree definitely helps with marketing and building a practice, though i'd have to check if it helps with insurance reimbursements. Also, it gives you a wider appreciation of education (and more debt ....)

Remember only a DPM (with a PMS36 residency or equivalent) allows you to be a surgeon at most hospitals, surgery centers, etc, but having a DO or MD does NOT guarantee that at all! You have to then prove that you have trained in Surgery or a residency that gives them that privilege. DPM automatically makes you a surgeon (after a PMS36 residency)... DO's and MD's, it's not guaranteed.

This is not all true. The DO programs that are combined with podiatry are not training DPM's to be DO's. The DPMs still take the required DPM courses and do not take OMM. And PM&S 24 graduates will also be surgeons but of the forefoot. And it is not guaranteed that all PM&S 36 trained podiatrists will be good at surgery.

I think everyone needs to really think about whether or not they are a good surgeon. If it turns out that you are not so hot at performing surgery please do the patients a favor and refer them to someone else that you trust, and stick to orthotics and nail avulsions.

 

[Stafocker]

This is not all true. The DO programs that are combined with podiatry are not training DPM's to be DO's. The DPMs still take the required DPM courses and do not take OMM. And PM&S 24 graduates will also be surgeons but of the forefoot. And it is not guaranteed that all PM&S 36 trained podiatrists will be good at surgery.

I think everyone needs to really think about whether or not they are a good surgeon. If it turns out that you are not so hot at performing surgery please do the patients a favor and refer them to someone else that you trust, and stick to orthotics and nail avulsions.

huh?

i think the original topic isn't about who's good a surgeon or not, but if you do a search, i'm sure this topic has been talked about before. Good luck!

 

[krabmas]

huh?

i think the original topic isn't about who's good a surgeon or not, but if you do a search, i'm sure this topic has been talked about before. Good luck!

I was responding to what you had said - that all PM&S 36 trained pods will be surgeons. It is true that we will all be trained as surgeons, but even so not every one should be a surgeon.

 

[alparkeruab]

This was posted on another forum by APMA:

Here are some newly released statistics for income of podiatric physicians from the 2007 APMA Podiatric Practice Survey:

1. A dramatic increase in the gross incomes of practice owners was found for 2006. The median gross income in 2006 was $400,000, compared to an estimated $275,000 in 2004.
2. A much higher percentage of members reported gross incomes over $500,000 in 2006 (37%) than in 2004 (20%) and 2001 (14%).
3. Net income in 2006 increased substantially from 2004. The median net income in 2006 was $150,000, compared to an estimated $137,500 in 2004.
4. Net income in 2006 was higher for members with high volumes of total patient visits and for members with board certification from the American Board of Podiatric Surgery (ABPS).
__________________
Source: The American Podiatric Medical Association

Also, those DO programs are training DPM's to be DO's, but most them continue being Podiatrists, just with a DPM/DO after their name. Remember, that not all DO's make the same amount, just like MD's don't all do well. There's a big difference between primary care or pediatricians compared to Orthopedic or General Surgeons in wage disparity. Having another degree definitely helps with marketing and building a practice, though i'd have to check if it helps with insurance reimbursements. Also, it gives you a wider appreciation of education (and more debt ....)

Remember only a DPM (with a PMS36 residency or equivalent) allows you to be a surgeon at most hospitals, surgery centers, etc, but having a DO or MD does NOT guarantee that at all! You have to then prove that you have trained in Surgery or a residency that gives them that privilege. DPM automatically makes you a surgeon (after a PMS36 residency)... DO's and MD's, it's not guaranteed.

Which schools give the combined DPM/DO degree?

 

[JEWmongous]

Nova Southeastern University in Davie/Fort Lauderdale offers a DO degree specifically for DPM's who complete a 2 year PM and S.

 

[Stafocker]

Nova Southeastern University in Davie/Fort Lauderdale offers a DO degree specifically for DPM's who complete a 2 year PM and S.

that's one I know of, too. I knew the first guy who went through there was from the Atlanta DVA program, but he didn't graduate the DVA (it was a pms36) and went to get his DO. At the time it was only for florida residents, but that might have changed. the DO is 3 years.... most likely end up a primary care guy... yikes! talk about a step down!

 

[NatCh]

that's one I know of, too. I knew the first guy who went through there was from the Atlanta DVA program, but he didn't graduate the DVA (it was a pms36) and went to get his DO. At the time it was only for florida residents, but that might have changed. the DO is 3 years.... most likely end up a primary care guy... yikes! talk about a step down!

You guys might look down upon primary care docs now, but once in practice they'll become your best friend.

 

[krabmas]

You guys might look down upon primary care docs now, but once in practice they'll become your best friend.

I do not think that we are looking down on them. Most are very smart. It is just not what we want to do.

 

[Stafocker]

You guys might look down upon primary care docs now, but once in practice they'll become your best friend.

That came out wrong, and thanks for pointing that out. Krabmas is also correct that PCP is not what we do. We do podiatry (comprehensive foot & ankle care).

I just wanted to bring some prideful (confident more than boastful) prospective on our great profession. DO's and MD's do their thing, and we do need them. This past decade and maybe earlier, the entire medical community has been and continues to learn/acknowledge that they need us just as much, especially since we are specialists of the foot & ankle.

No diss intended.

 

[krabmas]

That came out wrong, and thanks for pointing that out. Krabmas is also correct that PCP is not what we do. We do podiatry (comprehensive foot & ankle care).

I just wanted to bring some prideful (confident more than boastful) prospective on our great profession. DO's and MD's do their thing, and we do need them. This past decade and maybe earlier, the entire medical community has been and continues to learn/acknowledge that they need us just as much, especially since we are specialists of the foot & ankle.

No diss intended.

I just want to make sure that what I said was understood. It is not just that we do F & A care. Most of us chose this profession because it is hands on, surgical, and sometimes imediate gratification to our patients in one office visit.

If we wanted to pontificate the physiologic causes of abdominal pain, headaches, dizzyness... then refer to the proper specialist we would have become PCPs. To some people that is what they enjoy and are good at.