Opportunity cost of medical education

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Yeah med school is expensive. Yes I could make more money going into another profession. But is there anything I would rather go into is the better question. Would I be happier making more money and in less debt but not doing something I love? My answer to this, and the answer I think most pre-meds have is that they would not be as happy doing anything else. That happiness is worth more to them than the opportunity cost of 1/4 million dollars (or even more in many cases).
 
Yeah med school is expensive. Yes I could make more money going into another profession. But is there anything I would rather go into is the better question. Would I be happier making more money and in less debt but not doing something I love? My answer to this, and the answer I think most pre-meds have is that they would not be as happy doing anything else. That happiness is worth more to them than the opportunity cost of 1/4 million dollars (or even more in many cases).

May be true for some, but whatever, most pre-meds bury their head in the sand when these financial discussions come up. They talk about how "easy" it will be to pay back that $250k debt on the "huge" doctor salary, etc. They willingly take on extra debt above and beyond their lowest cost option to attend their "dream" school, because that is the only place they will be "happy."

I really don't understand what some of the people who are in this med school rat race are doing here.
 
Yeah I understand how many people just sort of assume that they will manage to pay their debt somehow... they don't know how yet. So I guess it is important for people to realize just what they are getting themselves into, and come to the realization of how much it is "costing" them in terms of their time, lives, families and money.

I know that doctors don't make that much money, relative to other job options. I actually want to enter academic medicine and will be making less than my peers that enter private practice. These decisions are things that aren't fueled by money at all.
 
I know that doctors don't make that much money, relative to other job options.

As reimbursements continue to go down, tuition goes up, and US med student enrollment goes up (without requisite increase in residency slots, which is going to force more and more US students into the lower pay jobs that previously went to the offshore crowd), this is likely to become the norm, rather than the exception. You will likely not do as well as prior generations of doctors. But you should be able to pay your bills and live comfortably. Which is fine if you are doing something you enjoy. Not so fine if your goal is to maximize lifetime income. In which case you are on the wrong track.
 
As reimbursements continue to go down, tuition goes up, and US med student enrollment goes up (without requisite increase in residency slots, which is going to force more and more US students into the lower pay jobs that previously went to the offshore crowd), this is likely to become the norm, rather than the exception. You will likely not do as well as prior generations of doctors. But you should be able to pay your bills and live comfortably. Which is fine if you are doing something you enjoy. Not so fine if your goal is to maximize lifetime income. In which case you are on the wrong track.

Good post - it's nice to hear someone mention the "middle-of-the-road" salary rather than taking a more extreme point of view. The next generation of doctors will probably not be ridiculously rich, but they won't be ridiculously poor either. If this is what you really want to do, I'm confident that it will all work out for you regardless of how much debt you accrue or how much money you make when it's all said and done.
 
As reimbursements continue to go down, tuition goes up, and US med student enrollment goes up (without requisite increase in residency slots, which is going to force more and more US students into the lower pay jobs that previously went to the offshore crowd), this is likely to become the norm, rather than the exception. You will likely not do as well as prior generations of doctors. But you should be able to pay your bills and live comfortably. Which is fine if you are doing something you enjoy. Not so fine if your goal is to maximize lifetime income. In which case you are on the wrong track.


This is the key point. And I have several others.

1. This dude racked up 18k in credit card debt. I would not look to him for financial advice. Without a loan from the Bank of Mom as he put it that could have completely torpedoed him financially.

2. The issue of opportunity cost is important but complex. According to Wikipedia, in 2006 the median income for US households was $48k. That means that even as a first year resident (let's just call it 40k although that's probably low-balling it for along of the country) you're still in the middle fifth of household income for the US. By the time you are a senior resident you may be very near the median income in the US. You throw in a working spouse, even at a fairly low paying job (say 20k) and you are dealing with alot more money than many families will see in their lives.

3. So sure, your 4 years of medical school are not a great period financially, but then you can jump into a very average income for the next 3-5 years. Yes, I know you will be working harder than other people -- get over it.

4. And yes, I know that most of those households near you in income don't have 200k in student debt. But they aren't looking at seeing their 48k triple or quadruple or quintuple in the next few years.

5. Do some of your own calculations. Go type in 250k in debt to a loan calculator, put it at 10% interest (although most of us don't have that high of a rate) and see that over 30 years you pay 2k a month. Sure that's alot of money but then go type in 180k salary (again low-balled for many fields including mine: EM) and find out that you're doing about 10k a month after taxes. Go ask some of those people raising families on 48k/year if they could manage to scrape by on 8k/month (10k-2k loan payment). Even after taxes and your crushing student debt you are throwing around more than twice the jack of your average neighbor.


If you want to look at the decision to enter medical school as financial suicide then you can find plenty of friends on SDN. If you go to the most expensive school, max out private loans, rack up CC debt, and go into Family Med or Gen Peds you might be in some trouble.

I highly suspect that the vast majority of us will experience some variation of what L2D said, namely comfortable lives where we don't constantly have to fret about money but where we don't vacation on the Riveria every year.

Unlike previous generations of docs we will also likely carry some of our debt burden out over 20 years. No one thinks anything of a 30 year mortgage but SDN seems to go crazy at the thought that you might still be paying on student loans 20 years out. It's not that big of deal.

5, 10, 15 years down the road it is entirely possible that medical education will be financially devastating but I don't think we're there yet.
 
Unlike previous generations of docs we will also likely carry some of our debt burden out over 20 years. No one thinks anything of a 30 year mortgage but SDN seems to go crazy at the thought that you might still be paying on student loans 20 years out. It's not that big of deal.

Yes and no. It's not that big a deal if you look at it as debt you are able to service so long as you keep working. It becomes a big deal if you are role modeling yourself after some doctor from a prior generation who was able to invest that same amount and then retire a decade earlier. Again, you will not be doing as well as the prior generation of doctors, and debt is but one of several reasons for this. So everyone on SDN who points to a parent or grandparent or uncle or neighbor who made bank as a physician is in for a big disappointment when they find they won't be accomplishing the same. Won't bother the folks who go into medicine out of interest/enjoyment/intellectual curiosity. These are the things that will make the 5am alarm clock less painful each morning anyhow.
 
If I go out into the real world with a ChemE degree, I'm guarenteed to make 60k+ right off the bat.

Must be nuts to consider medicine
 
Yes and no. It's not that big a deal if you look at it as debt you are able to service so long as you keep working.

Writing a check for $2k to $3k every month for the next 10 to 20 years is a BIG deal...you can't miss a beat...and this comes right off the top of your paycheck (right after taxes get sucked out), and before all of the other obligations the typical person has - house note or rent, health insurance, etc...
 
Writing a check for $2k to $3k every month for the next 10 to 20 years is a BIG deal...you can't miss a beat...and this comes right off the top of your paycheck (right after taxes get sucked out), and before all of the other obligations the typical person has - house note or rent, health insurance, etc...

Agreed, the point was what do you have left over? If you still are netting $8k a month I'd imagine you'd find away to keep your children out of the poor house.
 
If I go out into the real world with a ChemE degree, I'm guarenteed to make 60k+ right off the bat.

Must be nuts to consider medicine

ChemE is notorious for having the highest starting salary of any college major. Still, You're also guaranteed to increase your salary by only 3-4% a year, and hit a glass ceiling of around 90k- And that's if your job is not outsourced to south or east Asia. You'll be lucky if you see 6 figures by the time you retire, while the average attending easily sees 150-200k their first year.
 
And of course, with scholarships it becomes a better "deal".
 
$8,000 a month left after taxes and a student loan payment is not much money. The big break is going to come on your choice of a house, car, number of children, and the type of wife/husband you marry (or already married to). Thus, what type of insurance do you need for your home and car? How expensive are repairs for your car? How good is the gas mileage? The $8,000 is going to a LOT further in Arkansas than California. All of this stuff adds up.

This was the average household expenses in 2005:

1 - Shelter and associated expenses $15,167 (32.7%)
2 – Transportation $ 8,344 (18.0%)
3 – Food $ 5,931 (12.8%)
4 – Pensions and Social Security $ 4,823 (10.4%)
5 – Health care $ 2,664 ( 5.7%)
6 – Entertainment $ 2,388 ( 5.1%)
7 – Clothing $ 1,886 ( 4.1%)

Some of you soon to be doctors that make the same amount of money will be able to live more comfortable then others just on the basis of location and nothing else taking into account.
 
If you want to look at the decision to enter medical school as financial suicide then you can find plenty of friends on SDN. If you go to the most expensive school, max out private loans, rack up CC debt, and go into Family Med or Gen Peds you might be in some trouble.

That's a fact, jack. It's all well and good to advise the naive about medical school debt, but I've never heard of a physician in the country with the largest GDP legitimately going bankrupt. We all know the glory days of inflated salaries are gone, but I'm sure you'll be living comfortably. Have some common financial sense and you'll hardly be living off Snickers, even with $250k in debt.

By the way, engineering is not all its cracked up to be. You'll always be somebody's b**** with a salary cap around $100k and a hell of a lot less job security. I hope you get your jollies working in cubicles, too.
 
What one needs to do, no matter the level of income, is sit down at the end of every month and calculate the percentage of expenses for each category. Thus, what percent of your income is going directly to pay gas for your Hummer or a Toyota Hybrid Prius?

When you do this you will see if you are washing "the green" away. When you go out to eat, think about this. You are about to spend 30 dollars on a meal. Would you eat a 20 and a 10 dollar bill? Just think about it.
 
Honestly, you have to be crazy to be a pre-med.

If you are in it for the science, then why not just attend grad school? You can make just as much, or more, than a physician with a PhD in Chemistry, Engineering, or Biotech. Grad school is a heck-of-a-lot cheaper, too (I've heard that a few programs even come with a stipend).

If you still have humanitarian urges, you could volunteer or start a charity with all the flush cash you're banking. Look to Bill Gates, whose foundation has arguably done more for the human race than most doctors ever have.

Sure, it's wicked cool to bring a dead guy back to life, I've worked a few codes as an EMT, myself, but is the study of medicine really worth the premium?
 
Honestly, you have to be crazy to be a pre-med.

If you are in it for the science, then why not just attend grad school? You can make just as much, or more, than a physician with a PhD in Chemistry, Engineering, or Biotech. Grad school is a heck-of-a-lot cheaper, too (I've heard that a few programs even come with a stipend).

If you still have humanitarian urges, you could volunteer or start a charity with all the flush cash you're banking. Look to Bill Gates, whose foundation has arguably done more for the human race than most doctors ever have.

Sure, it's wicked cool to bring a dead guy back to life, I've worked a few codes as an EMT, myself, but is the study of medicine really worth the premium?

The salary is not even close. Sure professors at top universities can make good money, but most professors are lucky to make around $50k to $60k a year. The average professor salary at the local Big Ten school in my state is around $70k.
 
$8,000 a month left after taxes and a student loan payment is not much money. The big break is going to come on your choice of a house, car, number of children, and the type of wife/husband you marry (or already married to). Thus, what type of insurance do you need for your home and car? How expensive are repairs for your car? How good is the gas mileage? The $8,000 is going to a LOT further in Arkansas than California. All of this stuff adds up.

This was the average household expenses in 2005:

1 - Shelter and associated expenses $15,167 (32.7%)
2 – Transportation $ 8,344 (18.0%)
3 – Food $ 5,931 (12.8%)
4 – Pensions and Social Security $ 4,823 (10.4%)
5 – Health care $ 2,664 ( 5.7%)
6 – Entertainment $ 2,388 ( 5.1%)
7 – Clothing $ 1,886 ( 4.1%)


Are you out of your mind? 8k/month is roughly 3 times greater than the average American household income. That's 96k/yr after tax and loans, for you to play around with, not including another working spouse.
Also, do you mind posting a link to these numbers? I find it hard to believe the average expenses are 45k when the median pretax income is only 48k.

Some of you soon to be doctors that make the same amount of money will be able to live more comfortable then others just on the basis of location and nothing else taking into account.

Thank you, captain obvious!
 
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Honestly, you have to be crazy to be a pre-med.

If you are in it for the science, then why not just attend grad school? You can make just as much, or more, than a physician with a PhD in Chemistry, Engineering, or Biotech. Grad school is a heck-of-a-lot cheaper, too (I've heard that a few programs even come with a stipend).

If you still have humanitarian urges, you could volunteer or start a charity with all the flush cash you're banking. Look to Bill Gates, whose foundation has arguably done more for the human race than most doctors ever have.

Sure, it's wicked cool to bring a dead guy back to life, I've worked a few codes as an EMT, myself, but is the study of medicine really worth the premium?

There's a huge lifestyle difference between an MD and PhD. With a PhD in academia, you'll be a professor with all the duties and responsibilities surrounding teaching, writing grants, office hours, and bureaucracy. If you pursue industry, then it's the same as what I said above: a lot less job security than an MD and always a subordinate. It's a far cry from treating patients as an MD. Plus PhDs, in academia or industry, will not likely reach anywhere near what surgeons make.

As a side note, I think ALL PhD programs provide stipends, but its just enough to live on.
 
$8,000 a month left after taxes and a student loan payment is not much money. The big break is going to come on your choice of a house, car, number of children, and the type of wife/husband you marry (or already married to). Thus, what type of insurance do you need for your home and car? How expensive are repairs for your car? How good is the gas mileage? The $8,000 is going to a LOT further in Arkansas than California. All of this stuff adds up.

This was the average household expenses in 2005:

1 - Shelter and associated expenses $15,167 (32.7%)
2 – Transportation $ 8,344 (18.0%)
3 – Food $ 5,931 (12.8%)
4 – Pensions and Social Security $ 4,823 (10.4%)
5 – Health care $ 2,664 ( 5.7%)
6 – Entertainment $ 2,388 ( 5.1%)
7 – Clothing $ 1,886 ( 4.1%)

Some of you soon to be doctors that make the same amount of money will be able to live more comfortable then others just on the basis of location and nothing else taking into account.

Those expenses add up to ~$3.4k/month. 8-3.4= $4.6k of monthly disposable income ain't bad. That's enough to lease 2 2008 BMW m6's and buy a monthly supply of cocaine/e.
 
Are you out of your mind? 8k/month is roughly 3 times greater than the average American household income. That's 96k/yr after tax and loans, for you to play around with, not including another working spouse.
Also, do thse percentages refer to percent of total expenses, or percent of total income?



Thank you, captain obvious!

No I'm not out of my mind. I know plenty of families that have a $10,000 a month income that struggle. Chances are you haven't owned a house, haven't had to pay your own car insurance, have three or four children, and so many other things that add up.

Since you didn't understand my posting, let me spell it out for you. $8,000 is not much money if you chose to make stupid life style choices. There is a big difference between a mortgage payment of $1,500 a month or $3,000 a month. I'm sure there are repairs that will be needed. You also need to take into account AC, heating, and so many other expenses that goes with a house. If you have three young children, I'm sure they want toys to play with.

You also need to take into account property taxes. Where I live you can expect to pay $5,000+ a year just on property taxes. I know a lot of people with very high income levels in my city that pay $8,000 a year just on property taxes and they live in average sized houses.

You can expect to pay $2,000 a year just on utilities.

Childcare is well known to cost over a thousand dollars a month.
 
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I know plenty of families that have a $10,000 a month income that struggle...

Sounds like we all agree that ill-advised economic decision-making will get you into trouble no matter what you make.

If you live within your means, $8k/month is enough for very comfortable living. Most SDNers' families made <<$8k/mo/household after tax, and we grew up fine.
 
Sounds like we all agree that ill-advised economic decision-making will get you into trouble no matter what you make.

If we all can agree on this, then we are all better off.

If you live within your means, $8k/month is enough for very comfortable living. Most SDNers' families made <<$8k/mo/household after tax, and we grew up fine.

People need to remember the phrase, "the more you make, the more you spend." When you have $2,000 setting in your checking account untouched, the tendency is to spend it.

Oprah said it the best one time on her show. Just because it is there in my checking account, doesn't mean I need to spend it.
 
There's a huge lifestyle difference between an MD and PhD. With a PhD in academia, you'll be a professor with all the duties and responsibilities surrounding teaching, writing grants, office hours, and bureaucracy. If you pursue industry, then it's the same as what I said above: a lot less job security than an MD and always a subordinate. It's a far cry from treating patients as an MD. Plus PhDs, in academia or industry, will not likely reach anywhere near what surgeons make.

As a side note, I think ALL PhD programs provide stipends, but its just enough to live on.

All I'm saying, is that too many pre-med students have a romantic view of medical practice. All jobs worth the paycheck involve bureaucracy; to collect payment as an MD, one has to navigate the red-tape of the bloated insurance industry.


Medicine is business, like any other industry. Doctors and other health-professionals are yanked around in pursuit of profit like any other workers. Even as a senior attending, one will be subordinate to insurance companies, HMO's, and other administrations. One has to accept that fact and move forward.

This is not to say that doctors are ill-compensated or not worthy of respect. All I suggest, is that many other lines of work offer the chance to make a respectable living and contribute to society. Many brilliant ideas and solutions proposed and implemented by physicists, chemists, and engineers have substantially improved our quality of life.
I think that too many pre-meds suffer from a narrow world view that excludes these possibilities.

As a note on surgeons; they deserve every penny of compensation for the lengthy training they undergo and the miserable hours that they work.
 
Are you out of your mind? 8k/month is roughly 3 times greater than the average American household income. That's 96k/yr after tax and loans, for you to play around with, not including another working spouse.
Also, do you mind posting a link to these numbers? I find it hard to believe the average expenses are 45k when the median pretax income is only 48k.



Thank you, captain obvious!


A wise piece of advice is just to ignore any posts wisconsindoctor makes about finances.

The families that struggle to "get by" on 10k/month POST TAXES obviously has zero fiscal responsibility. Not to mention the 8k/month salary was given just to the one doctor. There could even be a second income! (I guess we'll need one if you're shooting off $1k/month childcare expenses)?
 
No I'm not out of my mind. I know plenty of families that have a $10,000 a month income that struggle. Chances are you haven't owned a house, haven't had to pay your own car insurance, have three or four children, and so many other things that add up.

Since you didn't understand my posting, let me spell it out for you. $8,000 is not much money if you chose to make stupid life style choices. There is a big difference between a mortgage payment of $1,500 a month or $3,000 a month. I'm sure there are repairs that will be needed. You also need to take into account AC, heating, and so many other expenses that goes with a house. If you have three young children, I'm sure they want toys to play with.

You also need to take into account property taxes. Where I live you can expect to pay $5,000+ a year just on property taxes. I know a lot of people with very high income levels in my city that pay $8,000 a year just on property taxes and they live in average sized houses.

You can expect to pay $2,000 a year just on utilities.

Childcare is well known to cost over a thousand dollars a month.

What is your point? No amount of money is enough money if you choose to make stupid life style choices. Mike Tyson is a broke former multi-millionaire. Are millions not enough to make ends meet either?
Bottom line is 100k/year after taxes is an amount most Americans can only dream of. It is enough to live comfortably in a nice area, drive decent cars, put enough money towards retirement, save for your kids' education, and take some nice vacations. I'm sorry Doc, but you're never going to make a sane arguement for 100k "not being a lot of money".
 
I know plenty of families that have a $10,000 a month income that struggle.
Dude, you are friggin' out of your gourd. The thing is, I do believe you. But what you leave out, purposefully, is that those who struggle on $10,000 per month do so for different reasons than those who struggle on $1,000 per month. Wildly different reasons. One group, already rich, is attempting to push the limits of how much luxury they can live in. The other is simply trying to survive. To not recognize this obvious difference in your comment is insulting.

I also like the part where you state, "Chances are you haven't owned a house, haven't had to pay your own car insurance, have three or four children." Are you serious? Did you just list the bills of 95% of Americans households? Yeah, those same households making an average of 40k.

I get a kick out of these threads. Never fail to read them in their entirety. The absolute lack of perspective by those in the medical profession gets me every time. It knows no bounds, really. On one of my last rotations of 4th year, the attending espoused his sympathy for the current crop of medical students: "I feel bad for you guys. With your debt, and declining reimbursment, I would have had to send my kids to public school." To continue to converse and look at him with a straight face caused me considerable strain. Medical school's the only private one I've been to, and not by choice.

AmoryBlaine: award for most rational post of this thread. Your calculation is spot on. Even with a gigantic loan and less-than-average salary, you will do fine as a doctor.

Last, this NYTs app is pretty fun: http://www.nytimes.com/ref/magazine/20070610_WEALTH_GRAPHIC.html

Adjust it however you like, but the outcome's always the same: we make a lot of money. (This image is with the default settings.)
f_untitledm_12366ba.jpg
 
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When opening this thread I just knew Law2Doc would be posting with some extremely pessimistic stuff about our potential future incomes. Scrolling down a little, I wasn't disappointed. Personally, I don't think its nearly as bad as he says, and any of us that don't act like financial idiots should end up pretty damned comfortable.

Of course, anyone who goes into medicine just for the money will probably be disappointed at the amount of work they have to do to get to that salary, but no one on SDN is one of *those* premeds eh? 😉

Edit: And some food for thought: There is no medical specialty that, with more than 2-3 years of experience, earns less than $150,000 a year. None. Not even family practice. Quite a few earn 1.5x that or more. Assuming that one exits undergrad with even $200,000 in debt, and over the lifetime of the loans pays twice that (400k), thats basically just adding 2.5 years on to the back end of your working career to "earn the money back". Rather than being a doctor who graduated with no debt that potentially retired at 60, like quite a few I know personally, one can retire at 63. Now I suppose one could argue that the money spent towards loans could have been invested and accruing interest before retirement, but I *highly* doubt any of us will end up depending on (the probably non-existant by then) social security when we retire. Except for the people that decide to go into medicine when they're 45 at least, but THAT I consider horrible financial planing.
 
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When opening this thread I just knew Law2Doc would be posting with some extremely pessimistic stuff about our potential future incomes. Scrolling down a little, I wasn't disappointed. Personally, I don't think its nearly as bad as he says, and any of us that don't act like financial idiots should end up pretty damned comfortable.

Of course, anyone who goes into medicine just for the money will probably be disappointed at the amount of work they have to do to get to that salary, but no one on SDN is one of *those* premeds eh? 😉

Edit: And some food for thought: There is no medical specialty that, with more than 2-3 years of experience, earns less than $150,000 a year. None. Not even family practice. Quite a few earn 1.5x that or more. Assuming that one exits undergrad with even $200,000 in debt, and over the lifetime of the loans pays twice that (400k), thats basically just adding 2.5 years on to the back end of your working career to "earn the money back". Rather than being a doctor who graduated with no debt that potentially retired at 60, like quite a few I know personally, one can retire at 63. Now I suppose one could argue that the money spent towards loans could have been invested and accruing interest before retirement, but I *highly* doubt any of us will end up depending on (the probably non-existant by then) social security when we retire. Except for the people that decide to go into medicine when they're 45 at least, but THAT I consider horrible financial planing.

You, sir, are dead wrong.

Man many of you pre-meds in this thread are down right stupid. Even athletes who made millions have lost their homes.

Anyways, all of you pre-meds who think $8,000 is a lot of money (which can be if you do things right) can go and do familly pratice in Los Angeles, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, or New York and come back to us with how wonderful you feel about the money you have left over each month.
 
Everyone needs to take a step back and calm down.

There's no reason to result to insulting others.

Keep this thread on topic and respectful of others.
 
That's a fact, jack. It's all well and good to advise the naive about medical school debt, but I've never heard of a physician in the country with the largest GDP legitimately going bankrupt. We all know the glory days of inflated salaries are gone, but I'm sure you'll be living comfortably. Have some common financial sense and you'll hardly be living off Snickers, even with $250k in debt.

By the way, engineering is not all its cracked up to be. You'll always be somebody's b**** with a salary cap around $100k and a hell of a lot less job security. I hope you get your jollies working in cubicles, too.

Engineering is not that bad if you work for yourself. I was a Civil Engineer and I had a nice office (to which I brought my dogs because I was the boss you understand) and actually spent a lot of time out in the field.
 
You, sir, are dead wrong.

Man many of you pre-meds in this thread are down right stupid. Even athletes who made millions have lost their homes.

Anyways, all of you pre-meds who think $8,000 is a lot of money (which can be if you do things right) can go and do familly pratice in Los Angeles, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, or New York and come back to us with how wonderful you feel about the money you have left over each month.

I am dead wrong? Please, inform me what medical specialty earns less than $150,000 a year on average for a physician with at least 2 years experience. No, the fact that some family practice physicians in Podunk, Illinois earn less than that isn't the point. The majority of family practice physicians earn more than this.

Now, the first source that pops up on google ( http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm ) does say that physicians specializing in only ambulatory medicine earn less than $150k on average, but in my experience most physicians that do ambulatory medicine do other things as well.

Edit: Forgot to check the "quote" box. Whoops.
 
Honestly, you have to be crazy to be a pre-med.

If you are in it for the science, then why not just attend grad school? You can make just as much, or more, than a physician with a PhD in Chemistry, Engineering, or Biotech. Grad school is a heck-of-a-lot cheaper, too (I've heard that a few programs even come with a stipend).

If you still have humanitarian urges, you could volunteer or start a charity with all the flush cash you're banking. Look to Bill Gates, whose foundation has arguably done more for the human race than most doctors ever have.

Sure, it's wicked cool to bring a dead guy back to life, I've worked a few codes as an EMT, myself, but is the study of medicine really worth the premium?

Yes, but only because there are still some specialties in this mother****er that pay well. If I was some low-level family practice doctor running 40 patients through my office a day to barely scrape together $150,000 per year it would have not been worth it.
 
No I'm not out of my mind. I know plenty of families that have a $10,000 a month income that struggle. Chances are you haven't owned a house, haven't had to pay your own car insurance, have three or four children, and so many other things that add up.

Since you didn't understand my posting, let me spell it out for you. $8,000 is not much money if you chose to make stupid life style choices. There is a big difference between a mortgage payment of $1,500 a month or $3,000 a month. I'm sure there are repairs that will be needed. You also need to take into account AC, heating, and so many other expenses that goes with a house. If you have three young children, I'm sure they want toys to play with.

You also need to take into account property taxes. Where I live you can expect to pay $5,000+ a year just on property taxes. I know a lot of people with very high income levels in my city that pay $8,000 a year just on property taxes and they live in average sized houses.

You can expect to pay $2,000 a year just on utilities.

Childcare is well known to cost over a thousand dollars a month.


Short of having a huge, Rockefeller/Kennedy/Hilton sized family fortune no amount of money is enough if you make stupid choices.

Look, I could figure out a way to blow $100k a month and you'd better believe it'd be alot of fun.

Your posts have some merit but you are assuming that students will be in maximum debt, have minimum income, live in expensive areas, and make poor financial decisions. If those 4 things are true people will be in trouble.

But to say that $8k/mo after taxes, after loan payment is not much money is just silly. It's not retire-at-45-drive-a-Bentley-buy-an-island type of money but it's more than double what most Americans will ever see in their lives.
 
I am dead wrong? Please, inform me what medical specialty earns less than $150,000 a year on average for a physician with at least 2 years experience. No, the fact that some family practice physicians in Podunk, Illinois earn less than that isn't the point. The majority of family practice physicians earn more than this.

Now, the first source that pops up on google ( http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm ) does say that physicians specializing in only ambulatory medicine earn less than $150k on average, but in my experience most physicians that do ambulatory medicine do other things as well.

Edit: Forgot to check the "quote" box. Whoops.

Medical geneticists with MD's - $90,000 to $125,000.

Medicine/Pediatrics - $139,000

Urgent Care $129,000
Occupational Medicine $139,000
Ophthalmology $138,000
Pediatrics $135,000
Podiatry $128,000
Psychiatry $149,000

There are 10 other specialities that hover around the $150,000 to $170,000 range.

Edit: just so you know, you don't want to look at the average salary of any field after 2 years when there is no clear cut off point in the data. For the table you posted, the average could be from 3 years to 30 years. That would get you an F where I took stats class.
 
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There are incredible pressures driving down physician pay. Maybe it's inevitable that our pay is going to decrease but the process is not helped by medical students, residents, and physicians noising it around that they are going to be satisfied with some arbitrary salary because it is a certain multiple of what Joe Sixpack makes.

If you feel guilty about making more money than your plumber or don't think you are worth more keep it to yourself and stop giving your enemies ammunition to demonize doctors.
 
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$8,000 a month left after taxes and a student loan payment is not much money. The big break is going to come on your choice of a house, car, number of children, and the type of wife/husband you marry (or already married to). Thus, what type of insurance do you need for your home and car? How expensive are repairs for your car? How good is the gas mileage? The $8,000 is going to a LOT further in Arkansas than California. All of this stuff adds up.

This was the average household expenses in 2005:

1 - Shelter and associated expenses $15,167 (32.7%)
2 – Transportation $ 8,344 (18.0%)
3 – Food $ 5,931 (12.8%)
4 – Pensions and Social Security $ 4,823 (10.4%)
5 – Health care $ 2,664 ( 5.7%)
6 – Entertainment $ 2,388 ( 5.1%)
7 – Clothing $ 1,886 ( 4.1%)

Some of you soon to be doctors that make the same amount of money will be able to live more comfortable then others just on the basis of location and nothing else taking into account.

So that's about $41k (I added quickly and rounded).

8k x 12 mo = 96k

96-41 = $55,000 of DISPOSABLE INCOME.

And that is not that much money? I don't know where you grew up man but I'm starting to think it was in downtown London or the Upper East Side.
 
Medical geneticists with MD’s - $90,000 to $125,000.

Medicine/Pediatrics - $139,000

Urgent Care $129,000
Occupational Medicine $139,000
Ophthalmology $138,000
Pediatrics $135,000
Podiatry $128,000
Psychiatry $149,000

Where'd you come up with THAT one?!?!?
 
Agreed, the point was what do you have left over? If you still are netting $8k a month I'd imagine you'd find away to keep your children out of the poor house.

My point is about not "missing a beat." That check is written every damn month - stumble just a bit, and you may go down for the count.

You only have "something left over" if you make the high income to begin with, and you make it 24/7 without interruption for your entire career (or at least for the duration of loan repayment which increasingly is sounding like it could be for one's entire career).

Man, **** happens - people lose jobs (even docs lose jobs) - they have periods of temporary unemployment - they get sick - spouses or kids get sick - maybe you are taking care of older parents who have special needs like assisted living or a nursing home that can easily run $4k a month...and you still have to be able to cough up that $3k loan payment EVERY 30 days...

My point: doctors are not immune to these economic realities and catastrophes that all families face, but because of the high cost of a medical education today, a doctor's "monthly obligations" start out much higher than the average family.
 
Medical geneticists with MD's - $90,000 to $125,000.

Medicine/Pediatrics - $139,000

Urgent Care $129,000
Occupational Medicine $139,000
Ophthalmology $138,000
Pediatrics $135,000
Podiatry $128,000
Psychiatry $149,000

There are 10 other specialities that hover around the $150,000 to $170,000 range.

Edit: just so you know, you don't want to look at the average salary of any field after 2 years when there is no clear cut off point in the data. For the table you posted, the average could be from 3 years to 30 years. That would get you an F where I took stats class.
Reading comprehension is a plus. Those are STARTING salaries you listed. Look at the second column, which is the average salary with more than 2 years of experience.

edit: Gah! you edited it as I was typing my post, but the quote function grabbed the edit. Starting salaries are *STILL* not anywhere near representative at what one will be earning a few years in. For example, Kaiser Permanente starts off its physicians at a specific salary, gives them raises every year, but doesn't start with the big bonuses until one has ~3 years experience with the company. At that 3 year mark, your salary might jump 20k+. And it would keep going up past then.

So yes, your first few years of family practice might not net as much money, but it goes up. And unless its a heavily skewed distribution with people with many years of experience earning millions, the average is going to be about what a doctor with an average # of years of experience makes.
 
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So that's about $41k (I added quickly and rounded).

8k x 12 mo = 96k

96-41 = $55,000 of DISPOSABLE INCOME.

And that is not that much money? I don't know where you grew up man but I'm starting to think it was in downtown London or the Upper East Side.

I didn't say a doctor would be poor. I'm just saying it isn't as much money as everyone thinks. That $55,000 disposable income stat you posted can range from a good $10,000 to a good $80,000 difference from person to person. As I'm sure you know, there are many factors that go into it.
 
Reading comprehension is a plus. Those are STARTING salaries you listed. Look at the second column, which is the average salary with more than 2 years of experience.

How did you pass elementry school? You can't use the second category because there is no cut off point. That data can contain people in the third year to 30 years. You need to look at the starting salary. This way you can get a better feel for what to expect to earn. After the first two years there are many factors that go into what a person gets paid.
 
How did you pass elementry school? You can't use the second category because there is no cut off point. That data can contain people in the third year to 30 years. You need to look at the starting salary. This way you can get a better feel for what to expect to earn. After the first two years there are many factors that go into what a person gets paid.
See my edit. Also, as a poster pointed out with respect to ophthalmology, starting salary means jack **** for a lot of specialties. Once one gets experience in those, the salary goes up threefold.
 
I'll say this as my last post in this thread. It doesn't really matter how much money you make. You can make 1 million a year if you want, but if you hate yourself, hate what you do for a living, bored at work, people hate you, have no family, have no free time, have no hobbies, have no friends, etc, what is the point of making 1 million a year?

Some of the happiest people I know are making $25,000 a year.

The bottom line is this. If you are happy with yourself, have a healthy relationship with your significant other and immediate family, enjoy what you do every day, have a hobby, can enjoy life, it really doesn't matter how much money you make in your life.
 
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I'll say this as my last post in this thread. It doesn't really matter how much money you make. You can make 1 million a year if you want, but if you hate yourself, hate what you do for a living, bored at work, people hate you, have no family, have no free time, have no hobbies, have no friends, etc, what is the point of making 1 million a year?

Some of the happiest people I know making $25,000 a year.

The bottom line is this. If you are happy with yourself, have a healthy relationship with your significant other and immediate family, enjoy what you do every day, have a hobby, can enjoy life, it really doesn't matter how much money you make in your life.

And a strange last post it is, especially to close with the second bolded comment after trying to convince us that 8k/mo was "not that much money."
 
And a strange last post it is, especially to close with the second bolded comment after trying to convince us that 8k/mo was "not that much money."

There was nothing strange about my post all.

Do you think your better than other people just because you are a resident?
 
$8,000 a month left after taxes and a student loan payment is not much money.
wisconsindoctor said:
Some of the happiest people I know are making $25,000 a year.
Are there two people posting from this account?
Panda Bear said:
Maybe it's inevitable that our pay is going to decrease but the process is not helped by medical students, residents, and physicians noising it around that they are going to be satisfied with some arbitrary salary because it is a certain multiple of what Joe Sixpack makes.
Outside of threads like this, I don't think it's a commonly held perspective by those in the medical field that they're happy with declining pay. As well, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to be a) satisfied being in the top 5% of all incomes in the U.S., and b) dissatisfied with the changing landscape of medicine and decreases in reimbursement. Both views can be held simultaneously. Using the measuring stick of "Joe Sixpack" is relative, like you note, but I think it does well in forming an optimistic worldview. I also agree that, on a practical level, using this measure as a guide for maintaining and/or increasing our salaries is a poor one.
 
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