Opportunity - need advice

[tommyboy44]

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I graduated from a very small private undergraduate college last may. No one would know of it unless you were familiar with the area. I decided to take the year off and apply to masters and Ph.D. programs for clinical psychology. I applied to about 10 doctorate programs and had basically little luck. I had only had one phone interview. Recently, the worst school I applied to interviewed me and accepted me. It is a low-ranking Clinical Psychology Ph.D. program. They provide some tuition remission, but that's it. No stipend. So I would have over 100K in debt when I get out.

I want to become a clinical psychologist. That's my end goal. I'm trying to figure out if I should accept their offer and try to reach my end goal or just take a year off and reapply next year (working / taking some masters classes). I'm just afraid I won't get into another Ph.D. Program and am afraid of losing out on an opportunity. Any one with a similar experience or advice?

I have competitive stats for admission but I think I don't get enough attention because of the small unknown college I went to. There were not too many research opportunities available there.

Any type of help would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[pretzels]

I am in a similar boat as you. I graduated with a 3.75 but from a small private uni, but my understanding is that, unless you came from an exceptionally well known school for either good or bad reasons ( Harvard or a mostly online school like Phoenix ) your alma mater won't be looked at as heavily as your performance at said uni, your gpa, experience, pubs if any, etc.

I would wait if I were you, build some more research exp however you can. That's what my plan is right now

 

[bcliff]

I graduated from a very small private undergraduate college last may. No one would know of it unless you were familiar with the area. I decided to take the year off and apply to masters and Ph.D. programs for clinical psychology. I applied to about 10 doctorate programs and had basically little luck. I had only had one phone interview. Recently, the worst school I applied to interviewed me and accepted me. It is a low-ranking Clinical Psychology Ph.D. program. They provide some tuition remission, but that's it. No stipend. So I would have over 100K in debt when I get out.

I want to become a clinical psychologist. That's my end goal. I'm trying to figure out if I should accept their offer and try to reach my end goal or just take a year off and reapply next year (working / taking some masters classes). I'm just afraid I won't get into another Ph.D. Program and am afraid of losing out on an opportunity. Any one with a similar experience or advice?

I have competitive stats for admission but I think I don't get enough attention because of the small unknown college I went to. There were not too many research opportunities available there.

Any type of help would be appreciated. Thank you.

University name/notoriety shouldn't have too big of an effect on whether or not you get in. You need research experience, and often times students at small schools that don't have access to a wide variety of labs and PI's can't get that experience while in undergrad. The students (in my opinion) that are able to apply straight out of undergrad to rigorous PhD programs work in several labs during undergrad and get a large number of poster presentations and (if they're lucky) a publication or two with their name as one of the first or second authors. I'm assuming that if your school is as small as you say it is then it is highly unlikely that you had access to any labs/PI's/projects that are well known, or would allow you to publish/present in high volume.

 

[LucidMind]

Recently, the worst school I applied to interviewed me and accepted me. It is a low-ranking Clinical Psychology Ph.D. program. They provide some tuition remission, but that's it. No stipend. So I would have over 100K in debt when I get out.

Hi Tommyboy,

What do you mean by low-ranking? Is it a professional school? If you don't mind saying which school you got into, it may help people tell you if it's worth it or not?

 

[pretzels]

By the price tag it sounds like a private university but probably not a fsps or it'd be worse. Still it's almost twice what most state school programs cost...

 

[CheetahGirl]

I graduated from a very small private undergraduate college last may. No one would know of it unless you were familiar with the area. I decided to take the year off and apply to masters and Ph.D. programs for clinical psychology. I applied to about 10 doctorate programs and had basically little luck. I had only had one phone interview. Recently, the worst school I applied to interviewed me and accepted me. It is a low-ranking Clinical Psychology Ph.D. program. They provide some tuition remission, but that's it. No stipend. So I would have over 100K in debt when I get out.

I want to become a clinical psychologist. That's my end goal. I'm trying to figure out if I should accept their offer and try to reach my end goal or just take a year off and reapply next year (working / taking some masters classes). I'm just afraid I won't get into another Ph.D. Program and am afraid of losing out on an opportunity. Any one with a similar experience or advice?

I have competitive stats for admission but I think I don't get enough attention because of the small unknown college I went to. There were not too many research opportunities available there.

Any type of help would be appreciated. Thank you.

Tommyboy, you got an acceptance straight from undergrad - that's an accomplishment!

I wouldn't worry about your undergrad college, as long as your stats were good. There are so many factors that go into the decision that you can't pin it on one thing (like a small unknown college). If you did well, you did well...regardless of where you went.

It sounds like you should apply next year and build on your stats so you get more interviews. Try to get a paid-job as research assistant; volunteer for a domestic violence program or suicide hotline (the training is vigourous, but your get experience that could be qualified as 'clinical"); improve your personal statement (make it more gripping and self-revealing to show your maturity & depth); and contact your recommenders to let them know your plan & ask if they would be willing to show their support on your second round (because you'd like to accept a program with better funding & less debt). Also, contact the schools you'll be reapplying to and ask the admissions programs if they would carry over some documentation, like your official transcripts so you don't have to reorder them.

Don't settle for a high-debt acceptance if you can make yourself stronger and regain the confidence to go at this 'game' again. Often times, the second time applying is the charm. I got in to my first-choice program (which was funded) the second time around, and it was well worth the wait.

Good luck!

 

[weeblewobble]

Congrats on your acceptance!

I also went to a small school that isn't well known outside the area, and was accepted to several programs right out of undergrad, so it is definitely possible to go to a good school without a prestigious undergrad. I did feel like my undergrad made me stand out- sometimes for better, sometimes for worse- during my interviews. There were a few times I was asked pretty openly about it, and there seemed to be an underlying question why I didn't go to the good state school or to a fancier little school. But it all worked out.

I agree with the other posters that it sounds like the right choice is to take a year or two, get more experience through a research gig, improve the other aspects of your application, and apply again. You can get the experience you need, and that's what faculty really care about (and the elusive 'fit').

Good luck!

 

[tommyboy44]

Hi Tommyboy,

What do you mean by low-ranking? Is it a professional school? If you don't mind saying which school you got into, it may help people tell you if it's worth it or not?

I don't want to give away the school because I'm paranoid of losing my only offer lol. But it's a school that is below 150 but is actually ranked according to http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...h-schools/clinical-psychology-rankings/page+7. It's also a private school that is respected. So it is a decent school in itself just the program is ranked poorly. If it was fully-funded, there would be no question and I would attend. I'm just nervous about going there and being in a ton of debt or the even worse alternative of not being accepted to another doctorate program since I didn't have much luck.

Often times, the second time applying is the charm. I got in to my first-choice program (which was funded) the second time around, and it was well worth the wait.

If you don't mind me asking, did you get into any schools or have any luck your first time around? Like I said before, I'm just nervous to pass on the only opportunity I have to take a chance in the dark.

 

[tommyboy44]

Also, I am considering attending the program and attempting to apply to other doctorate programs. I know that's wrong but that way if I have no luck again at least I'm attending one. Does any know anything about applying for other doctorate programs while already in one? Is it a turn off or an advantage to other schools?

Thanks guys.

 

[Adamm]

Hey Tommy, it would be good for you to contact admissions offices for the school that didn't accept you and find out how you can make yourself stronger. Also you can ask the school you got accepted to about their job placement, and how they can help you get to your end goal.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Also, I am considering attending the program and attempting to apply to other doctorate programs. I know that's wrong but that way if I have no luck again at least I'm attending one. Does any know anything about applying for other doctorate programs while already in one? Is it a turn off or an advantage to other schools?

Thanks guys.

Huge turn off to other schools. It is very rare to transfer PhD programs. Once you start attending a program, you should plan to finish it.

Also, you cite US News rankings. They know little about our field and are unlikely to be able to give you a sense of how good a school is. Search other threads here to learn good ways to assess the quality of a program. (Although 100k is a huge negative).

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[roubs]

Also, I am considering attending the program and attempting to apply to other doctorate programs. I know that's wrong but that way if I have no luck again at least I'm attending one. Does any know anything about applying for other doctorate programs while already in one? Is it a turn off or an advantage to other schools?

Thanks guys.

Do not base what you think is "good" on US News rankings, I know people in programs "under 150" on that page that get good internships, jobs etc.

It depends if you want a tenure track job at an elite school; programs lower on those rankings probably don't prepare you well to be competitive in that niche, but outside of that you can still be fine. $100k of debt in a field where you can start out around $70k isn't the worst thing ever, unless you have a boat of undergrad debt?

 

[CheetahGirl]

If you don't mind me asking, did you get into any schools or have any luck your first time around? Like I said before, I'm just nervous to pass on the only opportunity I have to take a chance in the dark.

The first time was very dissappointing for me. I was waitlisted at several places, but it gave me enough incentive to try again the second time. The second time around, I rewrote my personal statement (revealing a lot more about the plight that prevented me from applying earlier in life) and improved my GREs (which sounds so ridiculous now that I'm finishing up, but I suppose it made a diffference to have a slightly higher score). Regardless, the combination (and who really knows what other factors) got me several offers the second time around. One of which was to program that would've run me into debt well over $100K that I turned down before I was offered the spot at my current program. I did 'gamble' a bit, but like I said, it was worth it.

Yeah, the chance in the dark, is one that you'll have to decide on your own...just you & your bank account. After much debating, my husband & I decided it was not worth it from me to accept any low/no-funded programs and then I was beating myself up for even applying to them in first place. I was definitely more confident the second time around during interviews, and I'm sure came across really believing I had what it takes.

My advice to you is based on the monetary debt alone. From that, I can offer my perspective of reapplying. But a bird in hand is certainly a dilemma that I did not experience my first time applying. You really are committed to your program for a substantial amount of time. And it may be one of the biggest and most expensives decisions of your life (beside buying a house, getting married or having kids). If you decide not to take this offer for financial reasons, then you'll have to believe that you can improve and then focus on how.

 

[KillerDiller]

How closely are you calculating this 100K in debt? Is it just an off the cuff estimate? Have you looked at all the funding opportunities available at the program that accepted you? It's possible that, because it is partially funded, the department has relationships with other parts of the university that offer graduate assistantships for extra stipends and tuition remission. Some partially funded programs also allow you to work outside the program. Do psych grad students serve as adjuncts in the department? If so, that's an extra 3-4K per course per semester once you get your masters. Just some ways people are able to make respected, but still only partially-funded programs work.

 

[tommyboy44]

The 100K was just a off the cuff estimate. In reality it would be more than that because of my undergraduate debt. Thank you everyone for the advice. It was really helpful. I'm still trying to decide and figure it out this week before the April 15 deadline. Any more tips or advice would be helpful. It's great to see people come out and offer so much support. Also, does anyone else have an opinion on the idea of applying to other doctorate programs while attending one? I've heard mixed opinions.

 

[LisaLisa86]

Don't do it. It's unprofessional and rude, and you're taking the spot of someone who genuinely wants to be there. It's one thing to go in and decide the program/area is no longer for you- that's a hard enough decision- it's another thing to go in knowing it.

 

[graduatingsoon]

The 100K was just a off the cuff estimate. In reality it would be more than that because of my undergraduate debt. Thank you everyone for the advice. It was really helpful. I'm still trying to decide and figure it out this week before the April 15 deadline. Any more tips or advice would be helpful. It's great to see people come out and offer so much support.

What are the APA accredited internship match rates of this program for the most recent 5 years or so? I don't know if you have heard of the internship crisis.

Low APA match rates (less than 75-80%) + 100K debt = deal breaker

 

[tommyboy44]

What are the APA accredited internship match rates of this program for the most recent 5 years or so? I don't know if you have heard of the internship crisis.

Low APA match rates (less than 75-80%) + 100K debt = deal breaker

2005-2006: 3/5 - 60%
2006-2007: 4/5 - 80%
2007 - 2008: 6/8 - 75%
2009 - 2010: 7/8 - 88%
2010 - 2011: 8/11 - 73%
2011 - 2012: 7/12 - 54%

I actually don't know too much about the internship crisis but I have heard bits and pieces. Could someone sum it up for me and if it would be problematic? I'm going to contact the director of the program and ask about what happened the 2011-2012 year.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[cara susanna]

Regarding the match crisis, there are too many applicants and not enough spots. You cannot graduate until you've completed an internship, and your program has no control over whether or not you get one. Until you get one, you're pretty much in limbo. I'm at a program with a great match rate (100% APA this year) and I'm still terrified about applying next year.

 

[graduatingsoon]

2005-2006: 3/5 - 60%
2006-2007: 4/5 - 80%
2007 - 2008: 6/8 - 75%
2009 - 2010: 7/8 - 88%
2010 - 2011: 8/11 - 73%
2011 - 2012: 7/12 - 54%

I actually don't know too much about the internship crisis but I have heard bits and pieces. Could someone sum it up for me and if it would be problematic? I'm going to contact the director of the program and ask about what happened the 2011-2012 year.

Thanks again for the help.

APA internships are the gold standard in our field. Any other internship will limit your employment options. Without an APA internship, you won't be able to work for certain employers (e.g., VA hospitals, federal gov't, military) and you also won't be eligible for most postdoctoral fellowships. I think the 54% rate is low for the last year and 73% is not great either.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

APA internships are the gold standard in our field. Any other internship will limit your employment options. Without an APA internship, you won't be able to work for certain employers (e.g., VA hospitals, federal gov't, military) and you also won't be eligible for most postdoctoral fellowships. I think the 54% rate is low for the last year and 73% is not great either.

While I'm a huge proponent of trying to have APA internships be the minimum training standard across the board, I did want to point out that the bolded portion above may not necessarily be true. You'd still likely qualify for a variety of informal postdocs without an APA internship, and informal postdocs in all honesty probably outnumber (or at least come close to outnumbering) the formal ones. Even many formal postdocs don't explicitly require APA accredited internships (except for at places like the VA), although they do usually strongly prefer them.

54% is worrisome, though. This year's numbers are available, so the program should hopefully be able to provide those to help you determine if 2011-2012 was an anomaly, or if that placement rate is becoming a trend.

 

[tommyboy44]

This year's was 10/14 for 71%

 

[graduatingsoon]

This year's was 10/14 for 71%

Well, you should make a determination based on how much risk you are willing to take. I personally think about this as an employment statistic. So between 30-46% of the students don't match for internship in the past 3 years. These students would have to re-apply the following year (extending graduation) or take on unaccredited positions (with consequences above).

In terms of what AcronymAllergy pointed out, I think whether postdocs will accept an unaccredited internship is going to depend a lot on location. In my state at least, people with unaccredited internships are hard pressed to find anything that pays or will allow them to get their hours in a timely manner.

 

[tommyboy44]

Thank you everyone who posted. I appreciate how many people gave their 2 cents and were helpful and supportive. It definitely helped with my decision. After doing further research,I actually decided to attend the program. I'm really excited to be starting a doctorate program this fall. Thanks again everyone.