Opposing terminal surgery?

[turnandburn]

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It also does my heart good to know that my own discomfort with the ending of an animal's life for my learning was taken seriously by the course coordinator and the associate dean, and they were quick to provide me with an alternate method of gaining the same skills. It does make me wonder if they can't always do it the alternate way, and perhaps they've never really had to consider it before. I was told that I was the first student to ask to be excused from this particular lab.

I admire your integrity in having a conviction and taking a stand on that. 👍 However, I question what you feel that changed. For exampled, did you actually save an animal from being euthanized? Or was it already slated for euthanasia for other reasons? If it was an animal that was already scheduled to be euthanized, I question what good it does to find an alternative method- no animals are going to be saved, and nothing can be gained from it. IMO, if animals are going to be euthanized whether for overcrowding or behavioral issues, we should make the most of it we can for educational purposes.

As to the issue presented by the OP, I agree alternative methods ARE available, and that we need to start thinking outside the box and making a greater effort to find them.

Alternative methods may be available for some things, but nothing can replace real surgical experience on real live animals.

I would like to see veterinary medical education evolve beyond the need for terminal surgeries.

Again, nothing can replace real experience. I would feel differently if there was a shortage of unadoptable shelter animals or if shelter overflow wasn't such a problem. But there's not, and until we stop that problem at it's source, I can't see a problem with using those animals for terminal surgery.

 

[critterfixer]

I am perfectly ok with the idea that *I* did not compromise my own ethical standards I set for *myself.* Whether or not that leads to any change outside of that fact is not the point. I did not protest the assignment to force change, but rather to maintain the integrity of my own principles. That is an important distinction.

As for this particular procedures lab, it is absolutely untrue that these chickens had to be euthanized for us to learn the particular skills. As I said, an alternative was worked out for me that is even more clinically applicable.

Please note these were chickens from a research colony. They were being euthanized only because they were no longer needed for research. While I think it is admirable their lives provided learning and their deaths provided learning, it was not a necessary thing. My veterinary education is not in any way dependent on the maintenance of research chickens nor their euthanasia.

I wish I could explain the details of my alternative assignment, but I don't feel that would be right without express permission.

 

[StealthDog]

I am perfectly ok with the idea that *I* did not compromise my own ethical standards I set for *myself.* Whether or not that leads to any change outside of that fact is not the point. I did not protest the assignment to force change, but rather to maintain the integrity of my own principles. That is an important distinction.

This is exactly how I felt 👍

 

[turnandburn]

I am perfectly ok with the idea that *I* did not compromise my own ethical standards I set for *myself.*

That's admirable 👍

As for this particular procedures lab, it is absolutely untrue that these chickens had to be euthanized for us to learn the particular skills.

For one thing they weren't euthanized for you. They were already scheduled to be euthanized. Secondly, I'm *highly* skeptical the school would take the time and resources (and risk potential public negative reaction) necessary to schedule a procedures lab that they felt could be taught using a reasonable alternative.

As I said, an alternative was worked out for me that is even more clinically applicable.

Again, I have to admit I'm skeptical, because I honestly believe that if the school had an even *greater* alternative available that did not involve using live animals for a terminal surgery, they would be using it.

Please note these were chickens from a research colony. They were being euthanized only because they were no longer needed for research. While I think it is admirable their lives provided learning and their deaths provided learning, it was not a necessary thing.

What wasn't necessary? If the chickens were going to be euthanized regardless, shouldn't we maximize their usefulness?

I understand that you are against terminal surgeries, but you haven't really given a clear reason *why.* And yes, I am referring to animals that are already scheduled for euthanasia for other reasons. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding because it seems really illogical to me.

 

[DVMDream]

I see both points on here and again it is one of those there really is no “right” or “wrong” answer. I just wanted to share a story about the company we use that does the cremation on clients’ pets that have passed away. Apparently, according to AZ state law a pet is considered the property of the owner until it dies. Once that pet dies, it is considered trash. 🙁(Makes me sad). Some owners would opt to have their pet’s ashes returned to them and the company we used would then cremate that pet and return the ashes to the clinic. I never really knew what happened to the ashes of the pets whose owners chose not to receive the ashes back. I found out when the company sent us a letter. Some government agency does inspections on cremation places and I can not recall what the name of the agency is, but the cremation company was not doing things "right". Apparently it is technically illegal to actually even return the ashes back to the clinic for the owners to have. As far as the ashes that were not being returned, the owner of the company was donating them to some agricultural fields to be used as a natural fertilizer. In the letter the cremation company told us that they are no longer allowed to do this and the animals must go to the landfill. Personally, if it were my pet I would much rather have his/her ashes spread on a field than being dumped into some landfill. I guess my point is: If an animal is slated for euthanasia and is going to die regardless (IMO) it would be better to use them for educational purposes and to benefit the veterinary career than to be dumped in some landfill and be forgotten.

As far as comparing it to human medicine, I agree it is like comparing apples to oranges. I have done a lot of research on childhood cancer. Most of the drugs used on kids with cancer are in clinical trials and are not FDA approved (some of the drugs used cause severe side effects and sometimes death). While sometimes the drugs may work and the child can go into remission and even be cured, a lot of the time this does not happen. The child obtains remission, relapses, and is place on another clinical trial. The young kids have no idea what is going on and it is ultimately left up to the parents as whether or not to proceed with the clinical trials. Most of the parents have the attitude that even if this did/does not help my child, maybe it will provide the researchers with more information to save the next child and to ultimately find the cure. This would relate more to research, but just like an animal; you can not ask a 2-year old to make a logical decision about whether or not they want to participate in something that will probably eventually kill them (or cause serious and permanent side effects), but could save hundreds of others.

Anyway these are just my opinions and I am in no way diagreeing with anyone else on here. I just wanted to give another perspective.

 

[critterfixer]

turnandburn, be as skeptical as you like. I can't do anything about that. But watch you don't cross the line into questioning my honesty, because I won't respond kindly.

AGAIN--this was not a SURGERY lab, but a PROCEDURES lab. Of COURSE the procedures can be performed on live animals, else WHY would we need to know them?

The only reason I will offer at this point (as I am STILL at school and my brain is fried and it is 10:15 pm) is that they don't do it differently because that's the way it's always been done. Inertia is a force to be reckoned with. Have you ever read The Lottery?

And now, I am going home for my 5.5 hours of sleep, thankyouverymuch.

 

[ratbandit]

A note about the literature...

I've searched a couple of times for articles about alternative methods and usually end up with the same conclusion - I have no idea which is better. The thing about the studies is that they are comparing specifically designed alternative models for a specific type of surgery. It's hard to translate these specific examples into a generalization like "alternative models and learning techniques are better than live animal models in most cases" without looking at each type of surgery individually. You would have to look up an article that clearly defined a benefit or no difference for the use of the model vs the live animal procedure at hand and then simulate that exact model during your lab. For some things studies say live animals are better, for others they found no differences, for other surgeries the surgeons trained on the models are better. It's just a mixed pot with so many factors that are hard to quantify (for example, I read one study where the amount of time it took to do the procedure was the main deciding factor as to which group learned "better", is a difference between 10 minutes and 15 minutes for a surgery really the MOST IMPORTANT factor in determining its success?). Even the "review" articles that say they have done a literature search and make conclusions are pretty biased IMO. If someone else has had a different experience in their literature searches please do tell!

 

[turnandburn]

turnandburn, be as skeptical as you like. I can't do anything about that. But watch you don't cross the line into questioning my honesty, because I won't respond kindly.

People aren't allowed to express skepticism over claims made on an internet forum now? 🙄

AGAIN--this was not a SURGERY lab, but a PROCEDURES lab. Of COURSE the procedures can be performed on live animals, else WHY would we need to know them?

The only reason I will offer at this point (as I am STILL at school and my brain is fried and it is 10:15 pm) is that they don't do it differently because that's the way it's always been done. Inertia is a force to be reckoned with. Have you ever read The Lottery?

And now, I am going home for my 5.5 hours of sleep, thankyouverymuch.

I dont' know what procedures lab you are referring to, perhaps it's a bad example. So let's forget this particular lab.

How do you feel about terminal surgeries in general (as per my OP). Still against?

 

[Electrophile]

Speaking of procedures, I mentioned it briefly earlier but I think it bears repeating. One thing I did appreciate about our terminal surgery lab is that we did the terminal surgery on the dog one week, euthanized the dog at the end of the surgery (or in our case, 5 PM cause we were slow 🙄), shaved the dog's leg, and used the dog again the next week for the orthopaedic surgery labs and/or used it for clinical procedures labs, such as doing an LP to start an epidural, do a urinary catheter on a female dog, and place a chest tube. All of these would be pretty scary or difficult to do for the first time on a live dog, so I was particularly glad to practice these on a cadaver that had been put to good use first. Also, the surgery residents used the leg we didn't use for research purposes, so the dog went to good use. Once again, I silently thanked the dog for his or her service. I think of it as the difference between hunting for a trophy buck simply for the head versus all the meat and most of the organs and hides being used for an actual purpose besides an ego boost.

 

[Shanomong]

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[Electrophile]

lol, you are so not a vet student. 👎

Yet you've been a vet student for a whole 2.5 months, yes? You haven't been through surgery class yet either, so why does it matter?

 

[quakk]

lol, you are so not a vet student. 👎

wow. just, wow. disagree with ideas, but personal attacks are way uncool. this is wrong on so many levels.

honestly, you have no idea. wait until your virgin eyes see what the rest of us have seen.

again, nobody's arguing that there is benefit in doing procedures on live animals. the point is this:

there are alternatives to terminal surgeries!!!

and the alternatives are, in many cases, more clinically relevant. my experience as a conscientious objector bears this out.

as another poster said, inertia is a force to be reckoned with. people won't change, even if they see there is a better way. i saw it in vet school. i saw it in the semiconductor industry. and i've seen it many other places.

what's wrong with starting off with an ethically-sourced cadaver? get your bearings about you - learn the anatomy, the techniques, the approach. there are a billion procedures you can attempt with a cadaver to get good learning. watch videos and critically evaluate the methods. learn your suture techniques on a model, or on a cadaver. get those down before you go trying to tie off a nice pregnant uterus. when you've got some experience with dead tissue, you move to use live tissue. then you deal with things like tissue trauma and haemostasis, but you've got the bandwidth to focus on those because you've got the rest of it down.

once you've developed general surgical skills, the procedure is a lot less foreign. novel procedures are less difficult because you know what you're doing. general surgical skills translate well from procedure to procedure.

it boggles my mind that vet students (!) blindly go along killing animals in the name of saving animals when there are clear alternatives.

 

[alliecat44]

Yet you've been a vet student for a whole 2.5 months, yes? You haven't been through surgery class yet either, so why does it matter?

+1, also think the comment was inappropriate...

I have to say that I'm disturbed by how some people treat our surgery animals. Subtle things, but still bothersome. Some people don't seem to think about what the animals are going through for us to learn (and we do survival humane society spays/neuters). And I'm a vet student. So...?

I'm upset enough that people poke animals with needles 10+ times to get a blood sample and refuse assistance when it's offered--think of that poor terrified dog. Two sticks and you're out, in my opinion. Not fair. Have some respect for your patients.

Am I less of a vet student?

Sheesh. Just touching on a touchy/timely subject for me right now.

Personally, I can understand both sides of the terminal surgery issue. For me personally, I'm very glad that we don't do that here and that I don't have to make that choice. If I did choose to participate, I have a feeling I would be pretty upset for a pretty long time. But it would be a pretty tough decision either way.

 

[Pointer1330]

it boggles my mind that vet students (!) blindly go along killing animals in the name of saving animals when there are clear alternatives.

Honestly, I think you should probably quit posting unless you can provide a more logical argument. It seems like you're more driven by emotion than logic. First, how many times can you ignore the question of using animals ALREADY DESTINED FOR EUTHANASIA for terminal surguries. THE STUDENTS AREN'T BLINDLY KILLING ANIMALS. Wow, is that so difficult to understand? I see you're easily offended so I'm sure that paragraph didn't help any.

Finally, you say that many of the alternatives are more clinically relevant but I have yet to hear of a good example. I would really like to have you convince me and others here how practicing something other than the surgery you're going to be performing on something other than that type of subject you'll be doing it on and prove that it's more relevant. It's like getting a job at an car oil change place, but throughout training you only change the oil on tractors. Is it relevant? Sure. Is it as relevant and helpful as training on the same vehicles you'll be working on? No. Simple logic here. And if you don't feel comfortable learning that way - then don't. Just don't think you're all high and mighty because others want to get the most out of their surgical practice.

I'm going to give up on this thread now, but one last thing that I find really ironic is the argument that by doing terminal surguries you're trivializing an animal's life. Is it just me, or are we all people who have made the decision to devote four years of our education and the rest of our working lives to helping animals? Is there one person on here that isn't an animal lover? I just find it really funny that you're trying to tell people with this dedication and passion for animals that you don't love them enough if you believe in terminal surgury. Absolute nonsense.

 

[Electrophile]

I'm going to give up on this thread now, but one last thing that I find really ironic is the argument that by doing terminal surguries you're trivializing an animal's life. Is it just me, or are we all people who have made the decision to devote four years of our education and the rest of our working lives to helping animals? Is there one person on here that isn't an animal lover? I just find it really funny that you're trying to tell people with this dedication and passion for animals that you don't love them enough if you believe in terminal surgury. Absolute nonsense.

+1. Definitely. It's kind of like the well meaning but possibly insensitive people who tell animal shelter workers "Oh, I would NEVER be able to do what you do! I'd want to take them all home instead of putting them down!" Gee, yeah, we all get into that sort of work because we're sadists and like seeing things die. 🙄 Same thing when I did research in undergrad and grad school. I had to euthanize many, many mice for my projects and other people's projects, but it was for a purpose. Most people who get into biomedical research love animals and do look to lessen the number used and to maximize the use the ones we do use.

 

[sumstorm]

what's wrong with starting off with an ethically-sourced cadaver? get your bearings about you - learn the anatomy, the techniques, the approach. there are a billion procedures you can attempt with a cadaver to get good learning. watch videos and critically evaluate the methods. learn your suture techniques on a model, or on a cadaver.

it boggles my mind that vet students (!) blindly go along killing animals in the name of saving animals when there are clear alternatives.

Why on earth do YOU assume that students who participate in terminal surgeries DON'T do all of this? We started suture practice BEFORE we even started vet school...during orientation.

What, exactly, is an ethically sourced cadaver? That term 'ethically sourced' can mean very different things to different people. There are lots of techniques that can be learned...and then there are techniques that can't be covered on the basis that they don't necessarily come in during your particular rotation, and/or you can't crowd 80+ students around a surgical table...even a surgical theater often doesn't support that many people.

My point earlier, that you completly disregarded, is that as humans in a modern society, we go around 'blindly killing' animals on a regular basis...we just tune all those other ways out. In other words, I believe you are calling the pot black by criticizing the choices of others in the pursuit of their veterinary education if you are unable to claim a completly clean life yourself. Just the fact that you have internet access means you are negativley impacting animals somewhere.

Even if that were not the case, at least where I am at, we will NOT decrease the rate of shelter euthanasia by not practicing on living animals (even those terminated at the end of the procedure.) What, EXACTLY, is the difference between euthanizing an animal to use the body for cadaver work then euthanizing an animal post procedure? If you are claiming that crating/housing/transporting animals is inherently stressful, then won't you be supporting that as a veterinarian ANYWAYS? If you are saying anesthesia is inherently cruel to do to the animal, won't you run into the same problem with animals as a veterinarian?

I have spent a fair amount of times in shelters; for some animals it is terrible...for others, it is FAR better than their previous life.

Also, in some cases, we aren't even talking about shelter animals or purpose bred...we are talking about animals who were slated for the meat or milk industry, but aren't suitable (maybe they got sick, maybe they have a congenital defect, etc.) or were suited for research but not suitable. Do you also object to transplants in humans from living cadavers (brain dead, near death, kept alive on machines to keep organs functionsal for harvesting) or donors? The procedures don't benefit the donors, they benefit the receivers. If I am benefited by performing terminal surgery on an animal resource that would be destroyed either way, what exactly is your criticism? I was also benefited by the animals we hunted and slaughterd around our farm when I was growing up.

 

[sumstorm]

I'm going to give up on this thread now, but one last thing that I find really ironic is the argument that by doing terminal surguries you're trivializing an animal's life. Is it just me, or are we all people who have made the decision to devote four years of our education and the rest of our working lives to helping animals? Is there one person on here that isn't an animal lover? I just find it really funny that you're trying to tell people with this dedication and passion for animals that you don't love them enough if you believe in terminal surgury. Absolute nonsense.

Or the argument that if an individual doesn't do terminal surgeries, they haven't benefited by terminal surgeries performed by others. Even if I NEVER perform a terminal surgery, it is the dedication and research of others, often using animals in terminal procedures, that enable me to learn, provide treatment, use pharms, etc.

I am not saying that terminal surgery should be a requirement or such. Or that it should be considered a lack of compassion/commitment/etc for animals to do so. I just know, for me, whether the animal was aggressive, came from a shelter or purpose bred, domestic, wild, or pet..... it touches me, whether it is living or cadaver when I use it. I still see it as a resource, and am grateful for the opportunity to learn from it. I do not understand the differentiation between euthanizing to use as a cadaver vs euthanizing post surgery.

 

[Perfbird]

I think SumStorm and Pointer have spoken most of my thoughts on the topic, but I'd like to share my story that for whatever reason keeps popping into my mind when I read this thread. I took a lab animal skills class, and the animals we used for training were part of a colony purpose-bred for training researchers, PIs, and research assistants, etc. It was a rat class, and we were practicing restraint, blood draws, catheters, and learning about typical issues in rats. At the end we had made quite good friends with the rats (they were like such sweet puppies!), and the teacher gave us the option of performing euthanasia and then continuing to learn 2ndary euthanasia techniques, suturing, anatomy, and spay. I asked the teacher if the rats were destined to be euthanized anyways, because if they were not I would have said "no thanks" as I did not feel right euthanizing an animal just for me to practice on. It turns out that she was going to euthanize them right after the class anyways, so in the interest of getting the most out of the rat's life and honoring that animal's life by learning from its sacrifice, I opted to do the euthanasia.

My point being? If I had said no anyways, I would have walked out of the surgical suite, and the rat would be dead. It would have been a complete waste of an learning opportunity, and that rat's sacrifice would have been wasted. I thank that rat so much for allowing me to learn what I did, and I feel completely at peace with it because instead of wasting a life I learned far more (which in my opinion makes the animal's life that much more honorable) than I would have than if I had just walked away and watched videos or practiced on a fake piece of foam. The rat was destined for euthanasia anyways, so why not maximize the usefulness of what you can gain? This is not a "cavalier attitude", I am not trivializing the animal's life and death, in fact it is quite the opposite as by dedicating to learn as much as possible from its inevitable death you appreciate everything it has to give.

Same goes for terminal surgeries, IMHO.

 

[Sophie10]

I think SumStorm and Pointer have spoken most of my thoughts on the topic, but I'd like to share my story that for whatever reason keeps popping into my mind when I read this thread. I took a lab animal skills class, and the animals we used for training were part of a colony purpose-bred for training researchers, PIs, and research assistants, etc. It was a rat class, and we were practicing restraint, blood draws, catheters, and learning about typical issues in rats. At the end we had made quite good friends with the rats (they were like such sweet puppies!), and the teacher gave us the option of performing euthanasia and then continuing to learn 2ndary euthanasia techniques, suturing, anatomy, and spay. I asked the teacher if the rats were destined to be euthanized anyways, because if they were not I would have said "no thanks" as I did not feel right euthanizing an animal just for me to practice on. It turns out that she was going to euthanize them right after the class anyways, so in the interest of getting the most out of the rat's life and honoring that animal's life by learning from its sacrifice, I opted to do the euthanasia.

My point being? If I had said no anyways, I would have walked out of the surgical suite, and the rat would be dead. It would have been a complete waste of an learning opportunity, and that rat's sacrifice would have been wasted. I thank that rat so much for allowing me to learn what I did, and I feel completely at peace with it because instead of wasting a life I learned far more (which in my opinion makes the animal's life that much more honorable) than I would have than if I had just walked away and watched videos or practiced on a fake piece of foam. The rat was destined for euthanasia anyways, so why not maximize the usefulness of what you can gain? This is not a "cavalier attitude", I am not trivializing the animal's life and death, in fact it is quite the opposite as by dedicating to learn as much as possible from its inevitable death you appreciate everything it has to give.

Same goes for terminal surgeries, IMHO.

👍

 

[Shanomong]

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[CookieBear]

"You have to think for that animal..." Indeed. For that animal, it is stressful to be made to spend extra days/weeks in a cage before being transported to a different facility and left in a cage to wait again.

The question is not, does the student surgeon benefit from performing the terminal surgery - the answer is yes. The REAL question is could not this same surgeon gain those same benefits another way? And the REAL answer, of course, is YES.

If there's another way to do it, we should do it another way. And there IS another way to do it, so we should do it that other way.

That's all I'm sayin'. Never settle. Strive.

I think it's a true and valid point, that even shelter dogs we are spay/neutering, are, yes, transported - back and forth -and, yes, that's a real stress in their lives. I try to look beyond, in that, at least we are not doing terminal surgeries, and hopefully these dogs are all going to be adopted out upon their return to the shelter.

Many good points in this thread.

 

[StealthDog]

The rat was destined for euthanasia anyways, so why not maximize the usefulness of what you can gain?

For me, opting out of the terminal surgery was a way to keep me from thinking of animals as tools to be used for my education. You know how human doctors are supposed to avoid talking about their patients as "that pancreatic mass that came in yesterday" or "the chronic gastritis kid from last week" because it dehumanizes their patients? I feel sort of the same way looking at a research beagle and thinking "gastrotomy, intestinal resection and anastamosis, cystotomy" because, as a companion animal vet, my future patients will be much more than just procedures- they'll be family members. I don't want to get used to thinking of animals in terms of how useful they'll be to me, because that's not the philosophy I want to practice by in the future.

 

[turnandburn]

I think it's a true and valid point, that even shelter dogs we are spay/neutering, are, yes, transported - back and forth -and, yes, that's a real stress in their lives. I try to look beyond, in that, at least we are not doing terminal surgeries, and hopefully these dogs are all going to be adopted out upon their return to the shelter.

How far do you want to take that point, though? Are you against owners bringing in their animals to the clinic for euthanasia? That's stressful- transporting an animal to a strange place with all those strange new animals smells, people, chemicals, etc.

Should we as vets only perform in home euthanasias, so that the animals don't have the stress of transportation/being in a strange/scary place right before they die?

I think the transportation issue as an argument against terminal surgeries is really reaching, imo.

 

[Electrophile]

Yeaaaaah, wow. Not sure what you all thought I was responding to, but it had nothing to do with terminal surgery. Way to jump on the attack wagon though! Assumptions are always fun AND helpful!

I was just referring to the way that person utilizes the English language and the fact that they've posted a total of 2 times... not their actual stance on the issue. They don't come across as someone who is actually in vet school based on that alone.

And showing distrust of someone in a public forum, once again (it was mentioned earlier in this very thread) is not a personal attack. It's called having a brain. But keep up the good work, guys, keeping the world safe from people like me! I'm an evil, evil girl (who can't believe SDN doesn't have a devil-face smiley!).

Oh yes, because your grammar and spelling in this reply was perfect. The three bolded corrections are my own. I've got a liberal arts degree and a minor. Science/medicine folks aren't typically the best writers in the world, yourself included. 🙄

 

[Shanomong]

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[Electrophile]

This is what I was responding to.

I was just referring to the way that person utilizes the English language and the fact that they've posted a total of 2 times... not their actual stance on the issue. They don't come across as someone who is actually in vet school based on that alone.

Grammar Nazis should probably have correct comma usage, spelling, and punctuation. Which you didn't. People in glass houses and all of that...

 

[Shanomong]

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[Electrophile]

For me, opting out of the terminal surgery was a way to keep me from thinking of animals as tools to be used for my education. You know how human doctors are supposed to avoid talking about their patients as "that pancreatic mass that came in yesterday" or "the chronic gastritis kid from last week" because it dehumanizes their patients? I feel sort of the same way looking at a research beagle and thinking "gastrotomy, intestinal resection and anastamosis, cystotomy" because, as a companion animal vet, my future patients will be much more than just procedures- they'll be family members. I don't want to get used to thinking of animals in terms of how useful they'll be to me, because that's not the philosophy I want to practice by in the future.

True enough. I'm on pathology right now and it's pretty tempting to call the animal "it" before we start slicing and dicing for the necropsy, even if the animal has a name. I always read the animal's name when reading the history before we start and I try to call the animal "he" or "she" as well as treating the carcass with respect. Even if I am *mildly* in favor of terminal surgeries. I had to learn surgical procedures on mice in grad school, which was invaluable, so I don't feel like I can altogether dismiss my experiences with the purpose bred dogs for surgery lab. Back in grad school, I always tried to treat the mice kindly and I had no problems soundly correcting an undergrad when they just dangled one by the trail. I think it's more of not just what you're doing, but how you're doing it kind of thing. *shrug*

 

[Electrophile]

And the irony is that you're being the grammar nazi? You're grasping at straws here... my posts had nothing to do with grammar or with terminal surgery. But I'm glad both are important to you. You're a credit to the profession.

LOL, I actually don't mind being a grammar Nazi at all. I do feel spelling and grammar in our profession is important and I take it as a compliment. When I was in grad school, I was the lab's editor for papers and the like because I've got a pretty good handle on it. I just found it ironic you were mocking someone because they weren't in vet school yet when you have been in a total of 2.5 months. Then you mock their usage of English when your own was not perfect. Just sayin'.

 

[Perfbird]

Stealthdog, I totally see where you're coming from and I like the comparison to human medicine, as that is very true. Our patients are not walking medical files, they are beings with a family that have people that love them and hopefully their veterinarian, too, sees things that way.

But I never for a moment forget that I am practicing on an animal. The rat was not just a lesson in spay, suturing, and technical techniques, I was completley aware of the fact that the rat is a sentient, feeling, intelligent being, and for that reason I give my full respect to the animal; and I don't take for granted for one second that the animal gave its life for us to learn, and what a huge sacrifice it was. I don't want people to think that I only think of terminal procedure animals as "tools", as I most certainly don't. And when I look at animals, I don't size them up for their usefulness, I take the knowledge I have from practicing and put it to use so that I can, to the best of my ability, help an animal in need of care.

Stealthdog - I just wanted to ask what you think of the use of cadavers for student study? Would you consider the use of cadavers as educational "tools"? Don't vet students utilize a single cadaver to get the most out of it - maximizing usefulness? (And since I know words/tone can be hard to convey via typing, I am not trying to provoke or debate or start anything, I would genuinely like to hear your thoughts on this as I got to comparing cadavers vs. terminal procedures myself, lol! Casual conversation, that's all.)

 

[Shanomong]

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[StealthDog]

Stealthdog - I just wanted to ask what you think of the use of cadavers for student study? Would you consider the use of cadavers as educational "tools"? Don't vet students utilize a single cadaver to get the most out of it - maximizing usefulness?

I know I have some logical inconsistencies in how I feel about using animals for our education, but I have no problem using cadavers for anatomy. I think it's because there's really no other way to learn anatomy, while there are other ways to learn surgical procedures. I think it also has something to do with the fact that anatomy comes so far before clinical rotations- I felt like I could picture working on a client-owned animal when the third year terminal surgeries rolled around, but it was still so far away from first year anatomy lab.

I do wish we (myself included) had treated our cadaver animals with a little more respect. I know anatomy lab necessaitates a certain amount of morbid humor, and I don't suggest that we all spend first year solemn and mournful for the sacrifice of the cadaver dogs... but I think we definitely got desensitized to the idea that these were animal bodies and took things a little too far for the sake of a silly Facebook picture.

 

[BlacKAT33]

lol, you are so not a vet student. 👎

it may be a little harsh to question if this person is actually in vet school... but your right shanomong, it is a little shady that they only have 2 posts and they just joined nov 2009... and their only posts have been on the terminal surgery thread. interesting..

 

[turnandburn]

I do wish we (myself included) had treated our cadaver animals with a little more respect. I know anatomy lab necessaitates a certain amount of morbid humor, and I don't suggest that we all spend first year solemn and mournful for the sacrifice of the cadaver dogs... but I think we definitely got desensitized to the idea that these were animal bodies and took things a little too far for the sake of a silly Facebook picture.

I don't think there is anything wrong with morbid humor... it certainly keeps *me* sane after spending so much time down in that dungeon of an anatomy lab 😳

 

[causticus]

Came in a little late to the thread, and as such I don't have anything *new* to contribute. Most of my feelings/thoughts have already been expressed here in some form.

I just wanted to thank you all for the great discussion - lots of intelligent comments on both sides of a very tough and often emotional issue! 👍

However, I could do without the personal attacks and snide remarks. It's not professional, not useful, and it detracts from a lot of the legitimate and well-thought-out comments here. 👎

We've got a good thread here. Let's keep it that way, folks.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[sumstorm]

For me, opting out of the terminal surgery was a way to keep me from thinking of animals as tools to be used for my education. ... I don't want to get used to thinking of animals in terms of how useful they'll be to me, because that's not the philosophy I want to practice by in the future.

I know I have some logical inconsistencies in how I feel about using animals for our education, but I have no problem using cadavers for anatomy. I think it's because there's really no other way to learn anatomy, while there are other ways to learn surgical procedures. I think it also has something to do with the fact that anatomy comes so far before clinical rotations- I felt like I could picture working on a client-owned animal when the third year terminal surgeries rolled around, but it was still so far away from first year anatomy lab.

I do wish we (myself included) had treated our cadaver animals with a little more respect. I know anatomy lab necessaitates a certain amount of morbid humor, and I don't suggest that we all spend first year solemn and mournful for the sacrifice of the cadaver dogs... but I think we definitely got desensitized to the idea that these were animal bodies and took things a little too far for the sake of a silly Facebook picture.

I have a question on this..for us, surgery is second year, with many of us assisting in surgery first year (optional). So cadavers vs surgery vs clinical rotations kind of blend through the 4 years. Many of us participate in rounds as well, plus work treatment crews, so we aren't very detached from the hospitals. Would this have changed your opinion about using cadavers? I do know people who object to cadavers for anatomy and feel it can adequatly be learned using video/computer/models. Also, would your feelings be different if you weren't going into companion animal practice, since lab animals and food animals are judged almost entirely on how useful they are to the program they are in?

Sometimes (not saying by you) I feel there is this disconnect and judgement without consideration that not every vet is going into companion animals...or going into personally owned pets (shelter med, zoo med, forensics, research, etc.) Even in companion med there are times when the interests of society/humans are going to trump those of animals (infectious disease, dangerous animals, etc.)

I believe in practicing by the veterinary oath, which includes the welfare of society. I also do, as I noted before, believe in animals as resources; even pets. We house animals with us because WE like it. Even pets are there as resources in terms of affection, connection, attention, etc. Not saying there aren't bonds, but that those bonds have formed due to resources we get from the animals (and they form with livestock, wild animals, etc). Very few of us go out and adopt the most viscious neurotic animal we can find because that is what is best for that animal...we choose pets that we hope will live compatibly with us (which is how I think it should be!) We haven't really considered whether domestication and continued inbreeding and such is best for the animals (well, some people have and push to the PETA extremes of no captivity.)

Please note, I am not saying you are wrong, and you do need to do what you need to do for yourself....but also that it isn't black or white; just because I see animals as resources doesn't mean I don't see them as valuable or undeserving of kind and compassionate care and respect/appreciation. Or just because I am ok with using an animal as a resource doesn't mean that I can't understand and appreciate the human-animal bond (otherwise I wouldn't waste my time on so much behavior work.) I do have some unusual beliefs; I would rather animals be consumed as food then destroyed and disposed of (yes, that includes dogs and horses.) I also appreciate that while I don't like captivity of wild animals, it is the only and last option to save some species. I am also a huge advocate for better conditions for food animals and pretty opposed to factory farming (though not critical of the vets that work in that system.)

Also, I kind of wondered when someone mentioned cavalier attitudes towards terminal surgery, if it wasn't students talking more than acting; blowing off steam and stress.... but one thing I do know is the conduct you mentioned in cadaver lab isn't tolerated here. Not saying there isn't happy chatter and some morbid humor, but publication of photos of any animal lab is grounds for discipline and potential expulsion here. I actually think we are more aware of our cadavers and being sensitive to where and how they are obtained that we are of the palpation dogs and of the plastinized pro-sections (which often don't even seem to have a potential previous life.)

I can honestly say I feel more saddness regarding our palpation dogs that are used repeatedly for minor procedures. Just having your spleen and stomach palpated 40 times would be nerve wracking and uncomfortable, let alone full neuro exams, venipunctures, catheters, injections, fluids, etc. I keep hoping that one of the girls we use will be listed for adoption while I am here so I can take her home and baby her for the rest of her life. However, I am a terrible person; I value her more than the other one because I wouldn't want to take the other one home...she is shyer and it wouldn't be a good match to my other pets...I would want her to get a home...just not mine. I kind of also feel like in companion animals the 'value' of an animal is often going to be determined by someone else and their values and ability to earn and spend money on a pet. No matter what, I won't be able to afford to treat every animal I ever encounter as if they belong to the wealthiest clients....their value will be established before I even see them...whether I like it or not, and sometimes maybe I can alter that, but often I can't. Or, maybe they are beyond value to their owners, but the only potential procedure is risky and experimental and might result in death for the animal but better opportunities for the next animal.

The challenges of this profession....I do wish it was easily right/wrong/good/bad but it might not be so interesting then.

 

[StealthDog]

Would this have changed your opinion about using cadavers? I do know people who object to cadavers for anatomy and feel it can adequatly be learned using video/computer/models.

We do surgery second year as well (although our sophomore surgery is a survival spay/neuter lab), with the terminal surgeries performed third year. Honestly, I think that if the terminal procedure were scheduled for second year and the survival procedure scheduled for third year, I probably would have considered doing the terminal procedure more strongly. By third year, I felt like I'd already gotten one patient through surgery successfully, so having the procedure be terminal didn't really take any pressure off.

As far as cadavers, I still don't think that having more interaction with hospitalized patients or clients would have changed my feelings... For me, no computer model can compare with seeing actual tissues or structures.

Also, would your feelings be different if you weren't going into companion animal practice, since lab animals and food animals are judged almost entirely on how useful they are to the program they are in?

I certainly agree that the issue isn't black and white, which is why I'd never say that I think the way that I feel about terminal surgery is the way everyone should feel about it. I do think that I'd probably feel differently about it if I weren't going into companion animal medicine, as one of my barometers about whether I'd feel comfortable about doing something is "Would I feel okay telling a future client that I participated in this?" Food animal vs equine vs lab animal vs companion animal clientel might all have very different reactions to hearing that you participated in a terminal surgery lab. Don't get me wrong, that's not the only way I make these decisions (we all know pet owners that think all vets are vegetarians because we love animals so much)... but it's a part of it.

I think we all need to figure out what strengths we'll need to build up based on the type of practice we plan to work in when we get out. I have production animal classmates who hate the idea of having to talk to someone who refers to their dog as their "child", while I think people who have such a close bond to their pet are great because obviously they have their pet's best interest in mind. I personally think all horse owners are insane (no offense horse owners!), while the equine folks couldn't imagine working with any other types of people. I'm more than likely going to work in a very urban, middle-class, liberal community. I never plan to work in production animal medicine, so I don't need to get used to thinking of my patients as resources. Again, that's just what fits my personal needs and how I plan to practice- that doesn't mean I don't think any vets should treat their patients as resources, because obviously that's not the case for everyone.

I kind of also feel like in companion animals the 'value' of an animal is often going to be determined by someone else and their values and ability to earn and spend money on a pet. No matter what, I won't be able to afford to treat every animal I ever encounter as if they belong to the wealthiest clients....their value will be established before I even see them...whether I like it or not, and sometimes maybe I can alter that, but often I can't.

While I agree that you can't care more about your patient than the owner does (without running into some serious burnout problems), I think the temptation that I have to resist most is treating a patient based on how I feel about the client. Does he look poor? Offer him the bare-bones treatment plan. Does she look rich? MRI that runny nose! Is he a jerk? Quick physical exam, no diagnositics, and get him out the door. I want to do my best to not let judgements about owners cloud how I approach a case. I try to remember that, even though the veterinary oath obliges us to keep both patient and client in mind, we are often in the best position to be advocates for our patients. To me, that means they all deserve to be offered a gold-standard treatment plan, plus B and C options too.

The reason this profession is so great is that there is room for a wide variety of practice philosophies. You do whatever you need to do to sleep a night- if you think declawing cats is barbaric, no one says you have to declaw cats to be a good vet. You don't have to eat meat to be a good vet, and you don't have to be a vegetarian to be a good vet. We all have to have some respect and consideration for colleagues who practice differently, but I think this profession has a wonderful amount of room to fit lots of different philosophies.

but one thing I do know is the conduct you mentioned in cadaver lab isn't tolerated here. Not saying there isn't happy chatter and some morbid humor, but publication of photos of any animal lab is grounds for discipline and potential expulsion here.

Yes, the rules at my school have changed a lot in the few years since I had anatomy lab... There are things we did that would be grounds for expulsion now too, and I think that helps instill a better sense of respect for the animals we work with.

 

[StealthDog]

I do think that it's great for schools and students to respond to changing ethics... after all, it wasn't that long ago that schools performed multiple survival procedures on the same dogs before ending their lives with a terminal surgery. What's the big deal if they have good pain control on board, right? Having people who question the status quo is the only way change happens.

 

[alliecat44]

StealthDog, I would just like to say that you are seriously awesome. 🙂 You are going to be a FANTASTIC veterinarian and your future clients are lucky to have you. (And we're lucky to be your future colleagues!) What a credit to the profession. 👍 👍 👍

 

[rileyroo]

While I agree that you can't care more about your patient than the owner does (without running into some serious burnout problems), I think the temptation that I have to resist most is treating a patient based on how I feel about the client. Does he look poor? Offer him the bare-bones treatment plan. Does she look rich? MRI that runny nose! Is he a jerk? Quick physical exam, no diagnositics, and get him out the door. I want to do my best to not let judgements about owners cloud how I approach a case. I try to remember that, even though the veterinary oath obliges us to keep both patient and client in mind, we are often in the best position to be advocates for our patients. To me, that means they all deserve to be offered a gold-standard treatment plan, plus B and C options too.

The reason this profession is so great is that there is room for a wide variety of practice philosophies. You do whatever you need to do to sleep a night- if you think declawing cats is barbaric, no one says you have to declaw cats to be a good vet. You don't have to eat meat to be a good vet, and you don't have to be a vegetarian to be a good vet. We all have to have some respect and consideration for colleagues who practice differently, but I think this profession has a wonderful amount of room to fit lots of different philosophies.

i couldn't agree with you more. well stated. 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

While I agree that you can't care more about your patient than the owner does (without running into some serious burnout problems), I think the temptation that I have to resist most is treating a patient based on how I feel about the client. Does he look poor? Offer him the bare-bones treatment plan. Does she look rich? MRI that runny nose! Is he a jerk? Quick physical exam, no diagnositics, and get him out the door. I want to do my best to not let judgements about owners cloud how I approach a case. I try to remember that, even though the veterinary oath obliges us to keep both patient and client in mind, we are often in the best position to be advocates for our patients. To me, that means they all deserve to be offered a gold-standard treatment plan, plus B and C options too.

The reason this profession is so great is that there is room for a wide variety of practice philosophies. You do whatever you need to do to sleep a night- if you think declawing cats is barbaric, no one says you have to declaw cats to be a good vet. You don't have to eat meat to be a good vet, and you don't have to be a vegetarian to be a good vet. We all have to have some respect and consideration for colleagues who practice differently, but I think this profession has a wonderful amount of room to fit lots of different philosophies.

I appreciate your articulate response; I do agree there is a lot of room in the profession for a variety of views...definitly something I love about this field is the variety and diversity. I have also appreciated your ability to share your view without imposing it on others and admitting that, like all of us, there are inconsistencies in view/action/life!

I guess I have always assumed with clients that my responsibility is to present all the options, even the ones I am unwilling or unable to perform myself. That may be due to my dirt poor childhood where the animals were always an incredibly high priority (both because they were our source of livelihood or protected our source of livlihood) and because my parents put a great deal of emphasis that animals who have contributed to our lives should be treated as well as possible. I hope, if I do run a practice, that I will present all the options I see, express what I believe the best course is, and let my clients decide what works for them. I know it will be hard...especially as technology and options continue to change.

 

[StealthDog]

Aw shucks... thanks guys 😳

We're so much more civil over here than those silly Allopaths... 😉

 

[CookieBear]

How far do you want to take that point, though? Are you against owners bringing in their animals to the clinic for euthanasia? That's stressful- transporting an animal to a strange place with all those strange new animals smells, people, chemicals, etc.

Should we as vets only perform in home euthanasias, so that the animals don't have the stress of transportation/being in a strange/scary place right before they die?

I think the transportation issue as an argument against terminal surgeries is really reaching, imo.

I don't want to take the comment regarding animals (in the example I'm thinking of, dogs) being transported for a spay/neuter clinic too far at all. I simply wanted to acknowledge (whether or not the poster is vet-med) that, yes, I've considered it.

I don't want to derail the thread - because this is kinda off-topic - but I will say that I feel it's different when an animal is transported and presented for care by an owner, vs. a shelter dog who has been in facility A, loaded up and transported to facility B, fully examined by multiple strange hands within a few hours of arrival, blood sample obtained, etc., yes, surgery a few days later, then loaded up and transported back to facility A. Yes, that is stressful for the dog. Does the 'con' outweigh the 'pro', IMO, not at all.

If there's anything I try to bear in mind with most anything, it's the greater good. What's the big picture and the ultimate purpose. (But it doesn't mean that I don't stop to consider the minutia details).

Just thought I'd answer the question... back to the main subject...

 

[sumstorm]

I love seeing middle ground in this thread. While I am am ok for the use of terminal surgeries (in other words, I am ok with doing them myself and with others doing them) I am a huge softy. I feel the most guilty when I take a medication and don't know how it was tested, or I go the a dinner and don't know where the food came from, or all the stupid things that I just don't know because I am disconnected from the other part of the process that brought that resource to me. I am also the person who uses live mousetraps and relocates mice, moved the giant bee out of my house despite a sting being lethal for me, and spend the extra to know how my hamburger grew up.

 

[sunshinevet]

I love seeing middle ground in this thread. While I am am ok for the use of terminal surgeries (in other words, I am ok with doing them myself and with others doing them) I am a huge softy. I feel the most guilty when I take a medication and don't know how it was tested, or I go the a dinner and don't know where the food came from, or all the stupid things that I just don't know because I am disconnected from the other part of the process that brought that resource to me. I am also the person who uses live mousetraps and relocates mice, moved the giant bee out of my house despite a sting being lethal for me, and spend the extra to know how my hamburger grew up.

I totally agree. Most of the time I forget, but everytime I watch legally blonde 2 it sends me on a mad rampage through my house to make sure all my cosmetics/shampoos/soaps etc are "against animal testing". That said, once I'm in a habit of buying a certain brand, I stick with it foreverrrrrr...