Cadavers, terminal surgeries, etc.

[Veggievet]

Hi friends!

Long time lurker, first time poster -
I’m wondering if current students can weigh in on where their cadavers come from/their school’s opinion on terminal surgeries. UC Davis has always been my dream school, and now that I’ve actually been given the opportunity to attend, I’m finding hesitation because I’m not sure where they stand on issues like these - I tried to find information online and found they stopped terminal surgeries back in 2001, but haven’t found anything on their cadavers.

While interviewing at Tufts, the school was super explicit on all of their sources, ie. dog cadavers were donated pets who were euthanized at the hospital, horses were from auctions where they otherwise would have been slaughtered, they no longer do terminal surgeries and things like that. I know Western has a similar program as well, and out of the 10 I applied to, they were the only 2 that really talked about it. Just wondering if any current students could weigh in - not necessarily from UC Davis - to let me know what the norm is and/or if most schools are moving towards this system and only some are advertising it.

Thanks!

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[WildZoo]

I don't know about Davis but at TN our dogs and cats are donated from shelters where they were euthanized for other reasons. Horses are sourced similarly to what you mentioned for Tufts.

This is something I know from going here but not something I remember being advertised or available to the public. I don't think most schools really advertise it unless you ask. Terminal surgeries are definitely rare now.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

Eh really depends on the school I think.

We get all of our fresh tissue systems (liver/lungs/hearts/GI tracts/etc) from a local slaughterhouse, since the organs are removed from the carcass when the animal is slaughtered. The dogs we have come from a company in the US that prepares embalmed specimens. Having the red/blue latex inside the blood vessels is so incredibly useful for learning and identifying anatomy, so I'm happy we have embalmed specimens with that done to them.

I think the 3rd years did a terminal surgery on some sheep this year, but they were all animals that were already going to be euthanized for health reasons. Sometimes people will also donate their animals that are going to be euthanized for residents/faculty to do terminal procedures on for the sake of learning.

In anatomy we also had a horse exlap demo on a horse who was euthanized just before the lab, but that horse was already going to be euthanized and the owner donated it to the school so that students could get some learning out of it. If any teaching mares need to be euthanized they will usually try and make a learning opportunity out of it.

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

I think (not speaking for my school, just my impression from being here) the general stance is that terminal surgeries are an incredibly good learning experience and should be taken advantage of when they are offered. However, they are only offered with animals that are being euthanized for other health related reasons. So it's not something that is automatically offered/done all the time. Just when the opportunity arises.

 

[Caiter92]

The dogs we have come from a company in the US that prepares embalmed specimens, because if we used donated euthanized animals we would A) potentially have a supply issue, B) they probably wouldn't last as long since they were not embalmed, and C) depending on why they died who knows how not-normal their anatomy is. Having the red/blue latex inside the blood vessels is so incredibly useful for learning and identifying anatomy, so I'm happy we have embalmed specimens with that done to them.
.

A lot of schools use cadavers donated by shelters or pets that owners elected to donate after euthanasia from the VTH for anatomy. You can still embalm them

 

[TheGirlWithTheFernTattoo]

A lot of schools use cadavers donated by shelters or pets that owners elected to donate after euthanasia from the VTH for anatomy. You can still embalm them

Haha edited that out because I realized that I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

 

[WildZoo]

The dogs we have come from a company in the US that prepares embalmed specimens, because if we used donated euthanized animals we would A) potentially have a supply issue, B) they probably wouldn't last as long since they were not embalmed, and C) depending on why they died who knows how not-normal their anatomy is. Having the red/blue latex inside the blood vessels is so incredibly useful for learning and identifying anatomy, so I'm happy we have embalmed specimens with that done to them.

Not saying one method is better than the other, but our anatomist does all of that once they get sent to him, so ours are embalmed and do have latex in the vessels.

And yes sometimes there are abnormalities, though usually not anything major and there are always other dogs to look at. Had heartworms in a few of our anatomy ones.

The supply issue is definitely a concern, hasn't been for anatomy but in terms of what we get for other labs - males vs females, cats vs dogs - it just depends on what is available.

 

[that redhead]

Hi friends!

Long time lurker, first time poster -
I’m wondering if current students can weigh in on where their cadavers come from/their school’s opinion on terminal surgeries. UC Davis has always been my dream school, and now that I’ve actually been given the opportunity to attend, I’m finding hesitation because I’m not sure where they stand on issues like these - I tried to find information online and found they stopped terminal surgeries back in 2001, but haven’t found anything on their cadavers.

While interviewing at Tufts, the school was super explicit on all of their sources, ie. dog cadavers were donated pets who were euthanized at the hospital, horses were from auctions where they otherwise would have been slaughtered, they no longer do terminal surgeries and things like that. I know Western has a similar program as well, and out of the 10 I applied to, they were the only 2 that really talked about it. Just wondering if any current students could weigh in - not necessarily from UC Davis - to let me know what the norm is and/or if most schools are moving towards this system and only some are advertising it.

Thanks!

If you are concerned enough to consider not attending for that reason, I would absolutely reach out to the school and ask them.

Like most (all?), my school (AVC) used cadavers from shelters where these animals were already going to be euthanized. We did not perform terminal surgeries. I don’t think any schools are using purpose-bred animals for cadavers anymore.

 

[Crayola227]

I stumbled into this thread. Did not even know what terminal surgery meant. I wish we did this with humans. Instead we have physicians only practice on live ones who will have the privilege of getting to experience and live with any screw ups. Just an unsolicited perspective.

 

[Caiter92]

I stumbled into this thread. Did not even know what terminal surgery meant. I wish we did this with humans. Instead we have physicians only practice on live ones who will have the privilege of getting to experience and live with any screw ups. Just an unsolicited perspective.

But human doctors aren’t allowed to do solo procedures for a long time, correct? And even experienced surgeons make mistakes. So I don’t really see what good a terminal surgery in med school would do.

A lot of vet schools are moving away from terminal surgeries as well. Mizzou and NC State are the only two I can think of that were still doing them fairly recently as part of the core curriculum.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Not saying one method is better than the other, but our anatomist does all of that once they get sent to him, so ours are embalmed and do have latex in the vessels.

And yes sometimes there are abnormalities, though usually not anything major and there are always other dogs to look at. Had heartworms in a few of our anatomy ones.

The supply issue is definitely a concern, hasn't been for anatomy but in terms of what we get for other labs - males vs females, cats vs dogs - it just depends on what is available.

My cadaver had 2 heart defects. Someone else's had super abnormal venous supply to the heart. Another group's had heartworms. It actually makes things interesting and I feel you can learn from it more!

The human cadaver I dissected in undergrad had a port. The one the year before had breast implants. No two bodies are alike and it's good to experience some diversity in anatomy lab I feel like.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

I stumbled into this thread. Did not even know what terminal surgery meant. I wish we did this with humans. Instead we have physicians only practice on live ones who will have the privilege of getting to experience and live with any screw ups. Just an unsolicited perspective.

(mostly unrelated) but at least my state has death with dignity so physicians can assist in ending a patient's life to some degree

 

[PippyPony]

Chiming in for Tufts... it was really wonderful to have the donated cadavers.

We got a bit of information about them (pet's name, how old they were when they died, cause of death), which added to the learning experience. Cadavers should obviously always be treated respectfully, but I felt like having a few personal details made us even more aware that we had someone's family member on the table and my lab group was very grateful for the family's generosity. (It does add a level of sadness, too, though.)

From a variety perspective, it was very interesting to see the anatomical differences between individual animals and different breeds, and it was also a useful exercise to identify any abnormalities or pathology. Made it more "real," I guess.

I wasn't always a fan of anatomy class itself... but I am definitely a fan of our approach to this aspect.

 

[Trilt]

The terminal surgeries (on pigs, being euthanized for a joint study afterward) we did in my curriculum was by far the most useful afternoon of instruction in vet school for my career.

Just saying.

 

[Crayola227]

But human doctors aren’t allowed to do solo procedures for a long time, correct? And even experienced surgeons make mistakes. So I don’t really see what good a terminal surgery in med school would do.

A lot of vet schools are moving away from terminal surgeries as well. Mizzou and NC State are the only two I can think of that were still doing them fairly recently as part of the core curriculum.

Yeah, that's true, but at some point, the trainee is the one with their hands in there, and the supervisor is just hands off and watching. It's only possible to get some experiences by doing it yourself, and in some of those cases, no amount of supervision can head off badness by a trainee before something that cannot be undone, is done. Cadavers are also acknowledged as being a really poor way for a surgeon to learn about cutting on living tissue, it's more useful for learning anatomy or perhaps some exploratory techniques or using some tools/equipment.

One ENT surgery I saw, the resident was bovie'ing through some tissue to peel back some of the face, and like, there was a nerve in there that's responsible for actually controlling the bottom lip, and if you nick it, someone could be permanently rendered unable to purse their lips, and you can imagine how disastrous that would be for speech or even feeding oneself without drool and things dropping out. Sure enough, the resident was going a bit too fast, or didn't have a good feel for the layers of tissue they were going through, and they nicked the nerve a little. Thank God it wasn't severed, but patient did wake up with some difficulty and symptoms in that lip. The hope was that the nerve would recover, I guess that was reasonable expectation given what happened. I never found out if it did.

 

[ajs513]

Yeah, that's true, but at some point, the trainee is the one with their hands in there, and the supervisor is just hands off and watching. It's only possible to get some experiences by doing it yourself, and in some of those cases, no amount of supervision can head off badness by a trainee before something that cannot be undone, is done. Cadavers are also acknowledged as being a really poor way for a surgeon to learn about cutting on living tissue, it's more useful for learning anatomy or perhaps some exploratory techniques or using some tools/equipment.

One ENT surgery I saw, the resident was bovie'ing through some tissue to peel back some of the face, and like, there was a nerve in there that's responsible for actually controlling the bottom lip, and if you nick it, someone could be permanently rendered unable to purse their lips, and you can imagine how disastrous that would be for speech or even feeding oneself without drool and things dropping out. Sure enough, the resident was going a bit too fast, or didn't have a good feel for the layers of tissue they were going through, and they nicked the nerve a little. Thank God it wasn't severed, but patient did wake up with some difficulty and symptoms in that lip. The hope was that the nerve would recover, I guess that was reasonable expectation given what happened. I never found out if it did.

I think that the next best thing to terminal surgeries would be dissection of fresh cadavers. In my anatomy lab we did dissections on several species. The pigeons and cats were preserved for formalin but the rabbit and rat were fresh. Fresh cadavers are, aside from the bleeding, very similar to live patients when it comes to cutting. Of course you don’t have the movement of the organs involved when you’re cutting, but you don’t get the wrong idea about how the tissue reacts as you do with preserved specimens.

 

[vetmedhead]

My cadaver had 2 heart defects. Someone else's had super abnormal venous supply to the heart. Another group's had heartworms. It actually makes things interesting and I feel you can learn from it more!

The human cadaver I dissected in undergrad had a port. The one the year before had breast implants. No two bodies are alike and it's good to experience some diversity in anatomy lab I feel like.

last year someone had a dog with a squeaky toy alligator in his stomach

 

[vetmedhead]

My school tries to be very open about where they source their animals from and what their use will look like. They do a talk back session for us I think each semester, and we are allowed to come in with any questions or concerns that we have.

There are terminal surgeries in our school, but to my knowledge none of the classes that use them are core classes.

 

[Coopah]

Hi friends!

Long time lurker, first time poster -
I’m wondering if current students can weigh in on where their cadavers come from/their school’s opinion on terminal surgeries. UC Davis has always been my dream school, and now that I’ve actually been given the opportunity to attend, I’m finding hesitation because I’m not sure where they stand on issues like these - I tried to find information online and found they stopped terminal surgeries back in 2001, but haven’t found anything on their cadavers.

While interviewing at Tufts, the school was super explicit on all of their sources, ie. dog cadavers were donated pets who were euthanized at the hospital, horses were from auctions where they otherwise would have been slaughtered, they no longer do terminal surgeries and things like that. I know Western has a similar program as well, and out of the 10 I applied to, they were the only 2 that really talked about it. Just wondering if any current students could weigh in - not necessarily from UC Davis - to let me know what the norm is and/or if most schools are moving towards this system and only some are advertising it.

Thanks!

Davis gets donated cadavers from the school. They do not do any terminal surgeries for small animals however for large animal tract they still do terminal surgeries because they can't get enough donations.

 

[DVMDream]

Terminal surgeries at my school were totally beneficial and I really hope they still do them. Would recommend.