Optimism (for once!)

[Unch]

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Just for a change of tone, I thought some regulars on this forum might like some optimism for once. It seems as if it's all too easy at times to get drawn into the "insurmountable hurdles" mindset about getting back to NAmerica from Ireland or the UK (or anywhere else for that matter). Sure it's hard and, yes, you do have to be organized and self-motivated and diligent and all that. But people do have success and it happens a lot and seems to be on the increase (imho).

So utterly informally and without names, here are a few successes I've heard about lately.

1. UCC grad (intern year now in Ireland) got 8 US interviews in peds with very favorable indications for success (match on March 15). Was told by a Department Head that he expected this person would win a first or second choice spot.

2. Several (3 or 4?) UCC final meds got numerous Canadian interviews in (relatively) competitive programs like ENT and Ob/Gyn. This despite everyone suggesting that the new incarnation of CARMS might actually make things worse.

3. Friend who went to Trinity got 16 FM interviews in Canada last year, shortlisted his top six and got offers at 5 of the 6. Yes, this person is pretty stellar but makes even us mortals feel like they might think well of us coming back from Eire. This person also said that his Irish education stacked up VERY well and that he had groupies, even during his fourth year electives-- was able to find things in a cardiac exam that even an attending missed etc... Said something about how the Irish consultants are less afraid of a lawsuit for humiliating you in final med and that meant a truly "sincere" base in clinical med by graduation.

4. Numerous and very consistent positive feedback from US. My "agent in the field" has been shopping "Irish med school" around to well-linked (Mayo, Hopkins etc) and senior doctors and has gotten overwhelmingly positive responses about the perceived quality (or even superiority in some criteria) Irish education. Yes, this is anecdotal stuff but it's too consistent to be bluntly disregarded.

Jusy a few items but it doesn't seem too discouraging to me (today anyway!). Now on the ground here at UCC we're ready to revolt (had another exam Friday without any info on its format or structure and still not having received marks for our previous exam six weeks ago)-- but it won't matter in the end if we can just develop thick enough skin to get through the program. Can't say I'm loving the way irish administration "works" but have to admit that I feel I've learned a ton (tonne) by the end of each year.

 

[Arb]

Yes, I've heard quite a few success stories too and it seems the education received in Ireland is top notch. People in my school have been scoring well on the USMLEs but third year clinical schedules have just changed so people are unsure when they are taking Step 1 this year. So far I'm pretty happy in my choice and I don't see that changing.

 

[pattycanuck]

3. Friend who went to Trinity got 16 FM interviews in Canada last year, shortlisted his top six and got offers at 5 of the 6. Yes, this person is pretty stellar but makes even us mortals feel like they might think well of us coming back from Eire. This person also said that his Irish education stacked up VERY well and that he had groupies, even during his fourth year electives-- was able to find things in a cardiac exam that even an attending missed etc... Said something about how the Irish consultants are less afraid of a lawsuit for humiliating you in final med and that meant a truly "sincere" base in clinical med by graduation.

I know that this is an optimistic thread and as has gone before and after me as well, that this trend of Irish grads being arguably revered in Canada.

However, the match doesn't work that way about getting "shortlisted and offered" in Canada prior to the Match. There are loads of stories out there (just like in America) where you can be told that you have a spot and end up not getting that program. One cannot forecast that the schools will say that they will take you.

They can however say that they "like your application" and "had a great time talking to you during your interview", but if you think about exactly how the Match/computer process works ... even getting offers is not a hundred percent guarantee on your acceptance by a specific school - you'll never know if they submitted unless a school you chose as number 1, didn't choose you.

Best of luck to all regardless. It would be nice to see some other Irish grads back here.👍

BTW, if you look at the stats as well, there were NOT 16 schools (English only, and there aren't even 16 total English) offereing places in the second round of CaRMS for FM (ie IMGs) , only:

- UBC
- UofA (Edmonton)
- UofA(Grande Prairie)
- UofS
- UofM
- UWO
- Mac
- UofO (Sudbury)
- UofT
- Queen's
- McGill
- Dal
(French includes Laval, Sherbrooke)

There were a total of 12 schools with FM spots in the second round - the only round in 2006 IMGs could apply to (13 if you count the 2 UofA programs) : http://www.carms.ca/eng/operations_R1reports_06_e.shtml#table19

... so what else was this person saying?

 

[JediBookworm]

Can't IMGs apply in the first round now?

 

[leorl]

Just a little caveat when you're applying for residency yourself. Just because program directors say something sort of similar to offering a prematch, do not hold it as a guarantee. Having said that, Irish grads have been offered good programs and in some cases, good unofficial prematches (ie. through email, it being indirectly suggested that he/she will be ranked by said program).

Of this year's Trinity class, I've already posted in another post - of those going back, 2 have received quite confidence-inspiring "offers" from good IM programs (one Cali, and the other another top program)

 

[Arb]

Are pre-matches no longer possible (ie. they give you the contract to sign before match day)?

 

[leorl]

pre-matches are still available, but I don't know if anyone has formally signed anything recently. More commonly, people are contacted by the PD somehow and not made an official offer but said things that implied they were really wanted by that program. It's not a guarantee, but...it's still nice.

 

[Unch]

Why does it not surprise me that you'd find something negative or minor to quibble on Patty Canuck? In response to your points, he did, in fact, get 16 interviews (or maybe 14 but more than 12 anyway). He had more than one interview at several universities because some have more than one FM program. And you misread my post as i said nothing about being "shortlisted and offered" a spot as you so dutifully "quoted". Neither of the candidates I mentioned were pre-offered anything. They just went to interviews and then waited their turn with everyone else. I'm not advocating any special tricks or naive rube mentalities (believe it or not,I'm not a clueless rube or gladhanding optimist myself--most of the time!) But what I wrote is directly anecdotal from good friends and, in fact, quite specifically accurate.

 

[Coccinelle]

Thank you Unch for the much-needed optimism, especially for those of us just setting out on the long path to a medical career.

 

[pattycanuck]

Why does it not surprise me that you'd find something negative or minor to quibble on Patty Canuck? In response to your points, he did, in fact, get 16 interviews (or maybe 14 but more than 12 anyway). He had more than one interview at several universities because some have more than one FM program. And you misread my post as i said nothing about being "shortlisted and offered" a spot as you so dutifully "quoted". Neither of the candidates I mentioned were pre-offered anything. They just went to interviews and then waited their turn with everyone else. I'm not advocating any special tricks or naive rube mentalities (believe it or not,I'm not a clueless rube or gladhanding optimist myself--most of the time!) But what I wrote is directly anecdotal from good friends and, in fact, quite specifically accurate.

Well unch, I do find that there are some stories that are very blown out of proportion and for the experience of many of those who have gone through this process with me and before me .. what is said sometimes is just that ... out of proportion. I just want to make sure people see what going through the entire medical process via Ireland is about. That is all.

I am sorry to hear that you find me negative in posts that I have replied to. I try to believe that there is some good out there in what people are trying to communicate. Hearing is one thing and knowing is another. I know for a matter of fact that there were no more than 12 schools that offered second round interviews in CaRMS and I made sure that I backed it up with the source (yes 12 shcools).

If it is the responsibility of an advisor to give what is to be the best interest of the forum in general - ie giving the most valid information available and to bring out the truth for the benefit of others out there who want the most accurate information. I will not succumb to giving false hope to those who want to commit to the action of spending thousands of dollars and years of their lives on a false claim.

I praise those who do make that leap of faith into coming to Ireland or going abroad into the "unknown" and I will do what I can to make sure that the information they get is the right information. Sadly, what is being put out there sometimes is exaggerated and I will use my experience and sources to make sure that the best information given to the prospectants of this forum. As well, negativity is not what I truly intend, but when claims are made that I feel are not in spirit with what this forum is to do - provide bonafide information and suggestions to those in need to make the best decision for individuals - then I will jump in and provide what is needed to correct it ... and it many a time has to be done to nip it in the bud before it can potentially get out of hand and unfortunately it is sometimes (and what you think is many a time) negative.

I have no quibble with you or anyone else specific on this forum - as above, I will do what I am here to do - advise to help others here get the most accurate information to help plan what is best for them and their future.

 

[Unch]

Thanks Patty.
Didn't mean to diminish your candid and sincere efforts and i agree that there needs to be a sobering counter-thread through all this. But I am a student in Ireland and i do have friends who have been and are continuing to be successful. I may have mis-remembered or misunderstand the number of interviews for the FM friend but even if it was 12 (and I am sure it was quite a lot, regardless) it's pretty impressive and pretty encouraging, no? And he did, for sure, get his first choice out of all those interviews. I guess I think it doesn't really matter what the number was (given the general point) but i understand how you wish to counter what might be "exaggerations" so that those along aren't misled.

 

[pattycanuck]

Thanks Patty.
Didn't mean to diminish your candid and sincere efforts and i agree that there needs to be a sobering counter-thread through all this. But I am a student in Ireland and i do have friends who have been and are continuing to be successful. I may have mis-remembered or misunderstand the number of interviews for the FM friend but even if it was 12 (and I am sure it was quite a lot, regardless) it's pretty impressive and pretty encouraging, no? And he did, for sure, get his first choice out of all those interviews. I guess I think it doesn't really matter what the number was (given the general point) but i understand how you wish to counter what might be "exaggerations" so that those along aren't misled.

Cool Unch. I should have also added (to bring optimism to the thread) that yes, it is a great accomplishment for what your friend was able to get and I am glad he was successful in coming home. I like virtually all who have tried before and with me have been successful too. I do hope to see that you and those who have applied now will be in the same boat.

I am in the middle of the interview session for Queen's FM at the moment - bringing all of the Canadian applicants around Kingston and giving them a sense of all that Kingston as a city has to offer and answering their questions formally in a panel-based discussion (me being the current group's expert on couples matches) about my situation and a being a first year resident in FM at Queen's. The R2s sit with a staff member and do the actual interviewing - me next year. The crunch is on and we've seen 80 people in the past two days. IMGs all over Ontario for at least FM are interviewing On Feb 3rd (Sat) at the major centres - their first choice of where they want to be based. To all of those who read this, good luck and I hope that you get what you want!👍

 

[jujube]

Sorry if this is off-topic but in regard to #s of North Americans attending the Irish schools, are there significantly more Canadians attending the schools in comparison than U.S. students? Just curious! 🙂

 

[Unch]

At UCC, definitely yes. In my class, 16 Canadians and 2 Americans. Other classes similar, I believe. Can't speak for Dublin schools.

Likely the imbalance reflects the realities of Canada:few schools...US:many schools.