Options besides post-docs?

[JedMosley]

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Hi! I just matched for internship and am very excited!

I jumped the gun and looked at the requirements for licensure. I see that in the state I want to practice, 2,000 post-internship hours are required. I am aware that most individuals seek the route of post-doc to do this and ultimately I would take that route- however, for family reasons, I am geographically restricted and worry that I will not be able to find a good post-doc in my area. Thus, I am curious to hear about other ways of accruing the 2,000 hours prior to taking the EPPP after internship? If it helps, my end goal is to be a health psychologist-- if not with the actual "title" of health psychologist, that is the area I see myself working in and where all of my experiences have been. Thank you!

 

[erg923]

Hi! I just matched for internship and am very excited!

I jumped the gun and looked at the requirements for licensure. I see that in the state I want to practice, 2,000 post-internship hours are required. I am aware that most individuals seek the route of post-doc to do this and ultimately I would take that route- however, for family reasons, I am geographically restricted and worry that I will not be able to find a good post-doc in my area. Thus, I am curious to hear about other ways of accruing the 2,000 hours prior to taking the EPPP after internship? If it helps, my end goal is to be a health psychologist-- if not with the actual "title" of health psychologist, that is the area I see myself working in and where all of my experiences have been. Thank you!

When ever you are working after completing degree requirements, but prior to licensure, it is by definition a "post-doc" This can be accomplished by attending a preexisting post-doctoral training program that requires formal application OR by simply applying to a psychologist job/position that is willing to provide the supervision necessary for/during your first year of work. If you don't know if the facility or department will do this, simply email and ask. This occurs often in CMHCs, state hospitals, private practices, and in the VA. But again, you will need to make sure they are willing and able to do this for the right candidate.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'd just make sure that whatever you do, you maintain eligibility for board certification should you choose to pursue that option in the future.

 

[JedMosley]

I'd just make sure that whatever you do, you maintain eligibility for board certification should you choose to pursue that option in the future.

Good point! Does board certification require a formal post-doctoral fellowship?

 

[erg923]

Good point! Does board certification require a formal post-doctoral fellowship?

for health psych? no.

 

[JedMosley]

Thanks for your help!!

 

[WisNeuro]

Good point! Does board certification require a formal post-doctoral fellowship?

It's different for every subspecialty. I'd just check up on everything you'd need on the ABPP page.

 

[deleted343839]

A lot of people do "informal" postdocs supervised by psychologists in private practice or other settings. The best thing you can do over the next year is network with the professionals in your area who might be able to give you leads and advice. Join the local psych association, reach out to local people doing work in health psych, and get to know who's who.

 

[bmedclinic]

for health psych? no.

BUT.... if you're doing it in health, having a formalized health psych postdoc actually helps you get board certification faster, as you're eligible to apply for the CHP ABPP directly after postdoc, rather than needing a few years experience (which is the other route). I'm at this point now, and just happened to have looked it up this AM. (I have to get a few years of purely clinical health experience because my postdoc was not a formal health psych postdoc- it was in forensics- and I dont want to be boarded in forensics.)

 

[Lurking Oracle]

I just want to jump in and point out that simply meeting the minimum legal standard for the state in which one wants to practice might not be sufficient for potential opportunities or necessities that could easily arise down the road. A supervised-on-paper ~2,000-hour clinical experience that might pass muster in State A might not fly in State B. Some states have license reciprocity, but most do not. I have seen state psychology boards' "post-doc" hours range from as few as 1,750 to as many as 4,000 post-PhD/PsyD hours required. While I routinely encounter hopefuls that have already decided that they know for certain where they are going to work-live-retire-die after internship or postdoc, no one actually knows for this certain, or at least not for how long. Thus, one might want to strive to have as many options as possible. I have seen die-hard native blank-ers (fill-in-the-blank; can be urban or rural - it does not matter; rigidity is rigidity) swear to eternity that they will only live in (or within one-hour of) their Magic Kingdom, only to later have their spouse score a major offer in Antithesis Land or Bizzaro World, or to be presented themselves with an opportunity that would be truly perfect... and in a state or (more likely) institution that might not quite recognize those ~2,000 hours (but who was really counting?) in Dr. So-&-So's private practice, seeing the non-rev cases. Also, positions at AMCs will be more likely to only consider applicants that have completed formal fellowships/residencies. ABPP has already been mentioned, but some elaboration is warranted: A formal postdoc is already required for clinical neuropsychology through ABPP/ABCN (since 2005), and is pretty much all but a formal req for rehabilitation psychology at present. There is no reason to think that clinical health psychology will not eventually go that route as well.

 

[463951]

as many as 4,000 post-PhD/PsyD hours required

I've seen 4,000 hours for some states, but 2,000 for internship and 2,000 for postdoc. Is that what you meant? If not, what states require 4,000 hours for postdoc?

 

[Lurking Oracle]

I've seen 4,000 hours for some states, but 2,000 for internship and 2,000 for postdoc. Is that what you meant? If not, what states require 4,000 hours for postdoc?

When I was getting licensed in Michigan in the 1990s, the req was 4,000 supervised post-phD/PsyD hours. This put me in the strange situation of still needing to be supervised in Michigan even though I had a full psychologist license in a neighboring state and had completed a formal postdoc at an R1 AMC. Of course, the reqs in Michigan may have changed by now.

 

[WisNeuro]

When I was getting licensed in Michigan in the 1990s, the req was 4,000 supervised post-phD/PsyD hours. This put me in the strange situation of still needing to be supervised in Michigan even though I had a full psychologist license in a neighboring state and had completed a formal postdoc at an R1 AMC. Of course, the reqs in Michigan may have changed by now.

I think it's 2000 now, but if you earn your postdoc hours in Michigan, you need to have the limited license first or some nonsense.

 

[bmedclinic]

Lurking Oracle makes a good point about CHP potentially needing a formalized postdoc in the future.
Others make great points about reciprocity, which unlike RxP is something I wish psychologists were more actively involved in. I would love it if there was a standard across states, that leads to full licensure. Even if that was 5 years of practice, it's not too hard to practice in one state for 5 years if you know that your license is that unrestricted to go anywhere. Actually it'd make the job hunt a little more fun.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Lurking Oracle makes a good point about CHP potentially needing a formalized postdoc in the future.
Others make great points about reciprocity, which unlike RxP is something I wish psychologists were more actively involved in. I would love it if there was a standard across states, that leads to full licensure. Even if that was 5 years of practice, it's not too hard to practice in one state for 5 years if you know that your license is that unrestricted to go anywhere. Actually it'd make the job hunt a little more fun.

I also think that increased portability would give use more bargaining power when negotiating salaries. I know that being willing to relocate has really helped my career. I just wish it wasn't such a hassle and sometimes a nightmare.

 

[bmedclinic]

I also think that increased portability would give use more bargaining power when negotiating salaries. I know that being willing to relocate has really helped my career. I just wish it wasn't such a hassle and sometimes a nightmare.

exactly. Occasionally, I see an interetsing job come up, then I look where it's at. My main deterrent isnt living at that place, it's the lag of having to get licensed in that state. If you've gotten licensed in state A, it's nonsense to not have that portability. I cant think of one good reason, tbh. I know, duty to warn, and possible pending legal action could be raised, but I dont think those are good reasons, and certainly there's ways around that. I mean, we all passed the EPPP and got licensed in our respective states. Why not just make it national?

BTW, my wife is an SLP and their portability is super easy. They also have a strong national org (ASHA) that doesnt constantly flounder over itself like some (APA). So maybe what we're missing is having a good national org.

 

[WisNeuro]

exactly. Occasionally, I see an interetsing job come up, then I look where it's at. My main deterrent isnt living at that place, it's the lag of having to get licensed in that state. If you've gotten licensed in state A, it's nonsense to not have that portability. I cant think of one good reason, tbh. I know, duty to warn, and possible pending legal action could be raised, but I dont think those are good reasons, and certainly there's ways around that. I mean, we all passed the EPPP and got licensed in our respective states. Why not just make it national?

I think you'd have a hard time getting states to adopt a standard. For example, what if one state says that applicants must have graduated from an APA- accredited institution/internship? Are they going to have to accept the cesspool that is some of the CAPIC sites? I just think you'd have a difficult time finding that minimum bar, even though it is already pretty low as it is.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think you'd have a hard time getting states to adopt a standard. For example, what if one state says that applicants must have graduated from an APA- accredited institution/internship? Are they going to have to accept the cesspool that is some of the CAPIC sites? I just think you'd have a difficult time finding that minimum bar, even though it is already pretty low as it is.

Unfortunately agreed, although I wish we would (as a field) work in that direction. At the very least, uniform agreement on the number of required pre-/post-degree hours would be swell.

One of the advantages to boarding is that this can potentially help to standardize things a tiny bit (e.g., states that accept ABPPs with an oral exam component in lieu of their own oral examinations). Another possible advantage is that this then places the burden of credential review largely on the boarding organization rather than the state board, so that the applicant is then verified by folks who are (theoretically) more well-versed in their area of practice/specialty.

The state could then focus its energies on things like administering jurisprudence and verifying reported background/criminal history.

 

[bmedclinic]

I think you'd have a hard time getting states to adopt a standard. For example, what if one state says that applicants must have graduated from an APA- accredited institution/internship? Are they going to have to accept the cesspool that is some of the CAPIC sites? I just think you'd have a difficult time finding that minimum bar, even though it is already pretty low as it is.

I totally understand there are obstacles to be had, and yes, I know, cesspool that is CAPIC.
To me, those people, and I mean those people, arent leaving california anyways. And I'm unlikely to go there. But, aside from that rift, I think working towards implementing a national standard- even if its a 2020 or 2025 standard, will set us in the right direction.

Quite frankly, you dont have to get all the states to agree. You just need to get a majority. IIRC, Texas, Oklahoma, and a few of their bordering states all agree on the same licensing standards and IIRC people licensed in one state can easily get licensed in the next state. I think expansion of a group similar to that is key.

In a backwards sort of way, if you have a larger contingent- maybe 10-15 states with a certain accepted standard who were all on the same page about reciprocity, I would wonder if even that would put pressure on the CAPICs of the world to fix their subpar nature or be left behind?

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh, I'd love it too. I also just think we'd have to wade through a sea of restriction of trade lawsuits before we got there. If there is something diploma mill graduates love, it's playing the victim rather than owning up to poor personal life choices.