ORM myth: The Truth, and Nothing but the Truth

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happydays

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Once and for all, here's why Asians are over-represented in the US:

1. These are ones weeded out over millions of competitors from their countries to make it to the US. They teach their kids the same values, so most of them will work hard to achieve the most from themselves.

2. If you were to go to China or India, you'll find the same percentage of people hating school, dropping out, or doesn't want to be a doctor/lawyer.

3. Statistically speaking, if 1% of all population is deemed "genius," then in a population with 1000 people, there will be 10 of these. In a population of 1,000,000,000, there will be 10,000,000 of these smart people. That's why it seems that more Asians are smart. It's a percentage game.


DO NOT buy that stupid book about "why Asian parents make smarter babies," or something along that title. Asians are not any smarter than Black, Hispanic, American, European, Native American, or any other people. The Asians that most of us encounter in the USA are the most competitive ones from their countries; that's what it takes to get here. If you don't believe me, go to India or China and see for yourselves.
 
happydays said:
Once and for all, here's why Asians are over-represented in the US:

1. These are ones weeded out over millions of competitors from their countries to make it to the US. They teach their kids the same values, so most of them will work hard to achieve the most from themselves.

2. If you were to go to China or India, you'll find the same percentage of people hating school, dropping out, or doesn't want to be a doctor/lawyer.

3. Statistically speaking, if 1% of all population is deemed "genius," then in a population with 1000 people, there will be 10 of these. In a population of 1,000,000,000, there will be 10,000,000 of these smart people. That's why it seems that more Asians are smart. It's a percentage game.


DO NOT buy that stupid book about "why Asian parents make smarter babies," or something along that title. Asians are not any smarter than Black, Hispanic, American, European, Native American, or any other people. The Asians that most of us encounter in the USA are the most competitive ones from their countries; that's what it takes to get here. If you don't believe me, go to India or China and see for yourselves.

That's really interesting... I've never thought about that aspect of why Asians in the US are disportionately better academically...
 
My cousin picked up that book and thought it was hilarious. Hard work and determination aren't exclusive to ethnicity. There was a time when people talked about the "Protestant work ethic."

It's the ambition baby, the look in his eyes...
 
happydays said:
Once and for all, here's why Asians are over-represented in the US:

1. These are ones weeded out over millions of competitors from their countries to make it to the US. They teach their kids the same values, so most of them will work hard to achieve the most from themselves.

2. If you were to go to China or India, you'll find the same percentage of people hating school, dropping out, or doesn't want to be a doctor/lawyer.

3. Statistically speaking, if 1% of all population is deemed "genius," then in a population with 1000 people, there will be 10 of these. In a population of 1,000,000,000, there will be 10,000,000 of these smart people. That's why it seems that more Asians are smart. It's a percentage game.


DO NOT buy that stupid book about "why Asian parents make smarter babies," or something along that title. Asians are not any smarter than Black, Hispanic, American, European, Native American, or any other people. The Asians that most of us encounter in the USA are the most competitive ones from their countries; that's what it takes to get here. If you don't believe me, go to India or China and see for yourselves.

👍 Thank you 👍
 
Not sure the point of this thread other than stating the obvious.....the thread title is also misleading because Asians ARE overrepresented in med schools and top universities, that's not a myth.
 
happydays said:
Once and for all, here's why Asians are over-represented in the US:

1. These are ones weeded out over millions of competitors from their countries to make it to the US. They teach their kids the same values, so most of them will work hard to achieve the most from themselves.

this is not necessarily true. i personally know enough asians whose parents came over as political refugees and 4 other 'non-competitive' reasons. just look at hines ward (the superbowl MVP), his mother is korean and i wouldn't include her in ur group of "competitive" immigrants. plus, all asians r not unlike in their immigration situations so i'd b careful about generalizing esp if u r not part of that group (dunno if u r or not) and don't know their immigration/personal histories (again i don't know what ur background on this is)

happydays said:
2. If you were to go to China or India, you'll find the same percentage of people hating school, dropping out, or doesn't want to be a doctor/lawyer.

and from what source/evidence r u making this conclusion? could b true or false but once again, b careful about stereotyping esp if u don' t have 1st hand knowledge...and having some asian friends who say these sort of things does not count as quantitative evidence. and if i had 2 guess, i would say that the drop out rate is probably still less than in the states. i'm also pretty sure that the literacy rates in those countries are probably higher than here in the states.

happydays said:
3. Statistically speaking, if 1% of all population is deemed "genius," then in a population with 1000 people, there will be 10 of these. In a population of 1,000,000,000, there will be 10,000,000 of these smart people. That's why it seems that more Asians are smart. It's a percentage game.

ur knowledge of the analysis of statistics needs some work. once again, r u assuming that all asian populations r large (eg - china) cuz i can tell u the names of some asian countries that have smaller populations than the US.

and being labelled a genius is just that, a label. my IQ falls in that range and i don't consider myself more than above average and i have friends who r in mensa and don't think they're geniuses either. a genius is someone who is rare in our generation, otherwise the word gets thrown around alot and loses it meaning. i wouldn't even consider the 12 yr old korean-japanese boy who is doing md-phd (mstp) at the university of chicago as a genius, just someone who is very smart who's mother tutored him at home. i had a russian roommate who once told me that in america, we learn math at such a slow pace, she already had done calculus when she came here 4 boarding school. she was pointing out 2 me how americans always fair the worst globally in math and the russians r usually pretty high up. i skipped a year of high school math and still only ended up taking calculus during high school. its not that our brains couldn't handle learning it earlier, just that maybe our education system needs 2 b revised a little.


happydays said:
DO NOT buy that stupid book about "why Asian parents make smarter babies," or something along that title. Asians are not any smarter than Black, Hispanic, American, European, Native American, or any other people. The Asians that most of us encounter in the USA are the most competitive ones from their countries; that's what it takes to get here. If you don't believe me, go to India or China and see for yourselves.

i agree that asians or any ethnic group are not necessarily smarter than any other. come on, when i was growing up i heard alot of "pollack" jokes about how the polish r stupid, but really they as a ethnic group (i can't remember when) had one of the highest IQ scores (not that IQ scores = smartness either). i suggest maybe u visit india or china (if u haven't) and maybe rethink ur comments; maybe one of the reasons that asians seem 2 do better academically is the work-ethic that has been ingrained in them since childhood. plus the percentages are skewed when u compare asians in subgroups: historically, south asians (like the indians) and east asians (like the chinese) that u seem 2 focus on have done better than their southeast asian counterparts (vietnamese, cambodian, hmong, etc) - but not b/c they r any smarter. those "successful" groups have 1) been in the US longer as an ethnic group and 2) there may be other unknown internal factors that other non-asians may not know about or c. i mean the southeast asians now r also doing well.

part of the reason, at least that east asians do well (and i'm only talking from my personal experience, exposure, knowledge of asian history - since i am east asian) is as i mentioned b4, b/c of the confucian work ethic (and this doesn't mean that other ethnicities don't work hard either or have a similar work ethic, just that the confucian work ethic was a COMMON influence on the east asian countries). china, korea and japan were heavily influenced by the teachings of confucius which include a reverence for education, hard work, and life long learning. so education is highly respected in these countries (not saying they rn't in others). i mean look who korea picked 2 light the olympic torch when they had the 88 olympics, a freaking teacher! alot of the reasons asians do well is b/c of how their parents raise them and the values they instill.

even if u visited china or india, and if u're not asian, u might not still understand the whole picture - u'd b 'lost in translation' and c and feel different things than an asian would. if u r asian, then it depends on how immersed u get in the chinese/indian culture, cuz just a cursory visit also wouldn't give u much understanding unless u were either there 4 a while or a had background in that country's history.

let me give u some advice if u wanna b a doctor - don't generalize or stereotype about ppl, at least w/o quantitative or personal evidence. i understand c'ing things from a group attribute standpoint (i totally understand the arguments on both sides about affirmative action) but don't forget that ppl r individuals
 
That actually is a book out on intelligence distribution based on ethnicity. It was co-authored by Chalres Murray, and don't remember the real authors name. It is called the bell-curve. I have not read it, but I know the book is controvertial because his finding told some things that people didn't want to here, and I know some people label the book as racist. Supposedly he took almost all factors in consideration.
This is not my own opinion, let me stress this first. Also I believes his book only takes into account certain types of intelligence. There are eight types of intelligence classified. But according to IQ related intelligence that is the center of this discussion here in summation his findings found

People of Asian descent were most intelligent.
Right below was Caucasian
Next was people of African descent.

What was most controvertial was that the gap between people of african descent and people of causcasin descent was much larger than the gap between people of causcasain descent and people of asian descent.

I know Charles Murray wrote a book about the history of intelligence/invention based on races, the name escapes me know and addressed issues about differing civilizations over time i.e. why did native americans never invent the wheel?

This is very controvertial, but could be possible. In light of evolution one could argue that survival favored genes that govern intelligence more in one country than another, leading to a slightly more intelligent civiliation.

However any research that makes such bold claims, must be scrutinized. And it is a very touchy subject to most for obsious reasons. Has anyone else heard of this or found research that refutes it?
 
alchemist is it terribly hard to type "be" instead of "b", or "are" instead of "r"? I felt like I was reading a different language. Your post was an eyesore dude.
 
chef_NU said:
alchemist is it terribly hard to type "be" instead of "b", or "are" instead of "r"? I felt like I was reading a different language. Your post was an eyesore dude.

sorry, its just my style. didn't realize it would be that difficult. my bro is an IT person so i'm used to the shortening of words. IT even shortening multiple words into acronyms.
 
alchemist:

I've lived there for the first half of my life. I DO have first hand knowledge.

I'm talking about the MAIN reason why Asians are over-represented in the US Med schools.

Yes, there are Asians in the US who are not from uber-competitive families. (Why do people always assume that I'm talking about ALL Asians?) This is the most evident from a sample population in Cali. A sample of Asian from Cali can show that Asians have a diverse range of intelligence. Oh, and NOT ALL Asians from uber competitive families ARE competitive themselves; just most.

Yes, there's also work ethics involved, but believe me, not everyone in China (or Korea and Japan) follows the Confusian teachings. Most people are taught the standard, "work hard and you'll be rewarded." Even then, lots of people don't work hard. I don't know any culture that doesn't teach their kids to work hard.

Finally, I was just using "genius" as an example. It's not based on facts or anything. It was used to illustrate the power of the percent.

The point is this: Yes, there are lots of hard-working and smart Asians in Asia, but the reason why they are over-represented in the US Med schools is that the smartest and hardest working are here.
 
bananaface said:
This is not a healthcare topic. 🙄
I figured that if an URM topic is here, then an ORM topic can't hurt.
 
NonTradMed said:
Not sure the point of this thread other than stating the obvious.....the thread title is also misleading because Asians ARE overrepresented in med schools and top universities, that's not a myth.
The Myth is that Asians are inherently more intelligent, thus they are over-represented in the US med schools.
 
happydays said:
The Myth is that Asians are inherently more intelligent, thus they are over-represented in the US med schools.

As an east asian, I've never had people tell me I'm inherently better at math and science....must be a coastal thing. 😀
 
happydays said:
happydays:

Yes, there are Asians in the US who are not from uber-competitive families. (Why do people always assume that I'm talking about ALL Asians?) This is the most evident from a sample population in Cali. A sample of Asian from Cali can show that Asians have a diverse range of intelligence. Oh, and NOT ALL Asians from uber competitive families ARE competitive themselves; just most.

Yes, there's also work ethics involved, but believe me, not everyone in China (or Korea and Japan) follows the Confusian teachings. Most people are taught the standard, "work hard and you'll be rewarded." Even then, lots of people don't work hard. I don't know any culture that doesn't teach their kids to work hard. your original quote did not seem to imply that you felt this way...it seemed more like a whine that asians are either considered smarter or that more of them get into colleges/med schools than non-asians.
i didn't say other cultures do not have a work ethic (actually i even said that they did in my original post), what i said was that the Confucian work ethic is something common among those 3 asian countries. and its not just that asians are just taught that, some of us have parents who won't get off our backs about it, regardless of whether you want to be lazy or not, its kinda hard when ur parents are always in your business and harping on you to study or even worse, checking up on you to make sure you do.

happydays said:
Finally, I was just using "genius" as an example. It's not based on facts or anything. It was used to illustrate the power of the percent.
but as i pointed out, excepting china, the US probably has a larger population than most asian countries. does this mean we have more geniuses? no, i think not and i'm not even sure we could assume that the distribution (1% in your example) would be the same in both countries so what exactly were you trying to say with the power of the %? what are you trying to compare with the stats? b/c i understood it as you were trying to explain why there were so many academically successful asians in the US. was that the point you were trying to make?

happydays said:
The point is this: Yes, there are lots of hard-working and smart Asians in Asia, but the reason why they are over-represented in the US Med schools is that the smartest and hardest working are here.

even being asian, i don't know if i would say that the "smartest and hardest working" of the asians are here in the US - i can think of some really dumb asians and really smart non-asians i know. and it also depends on whether they had the bucks and opportunity to come to the US. like i said before, alot of political refugees came en masse from vietnam in the 80's and some of them didn't really have a choice - it was stay in vietnam and maybe die or go to the US b/c the US govn't was helping them do so. if you look at this group separately or even within the larger asian group, until most recently they were very different (for example in terms of academic success; and this is not meant to put members of this group down) - the vietnamese who came here were a diverse group within themselves, athough alot of them were those who had more money and may have been more educated types (and had helped the US in the VT war) and in comparison to east/south asians in the US. i think there are more factors than just intelligence and work ethic (although they may be some of the stronger factors) at work here. it could be that medicine is held in very high regard in asia or that parents encourage/push their kids into medicine, etc...my only point is to single out those 2 factors and to say that the "smartest and hardest working asians" are the ones who emigrated to the US or "are here in the US" as you said, (w/o evidence) is a great leap to make. and in the end, it really doesn't matter. being in the middle of the application process, i've felt the difficulties that asians have being a minority but an ORM at med schools, but it really doesn't matter. spending time thinking that's the reason i got / didn't get in really isn't useful and a waste of time and energy, at least for me..

i know you were just trying to say why you thought there were so many asians in med schools but your posts, stated that what you were saying was the 'truth' and i wanted to point that although it may be for you, it isn't for other asians like myself.
 
NonTradMed said:
As an east asian, I've never had people tell me I'm inherently better at math and science....must be a coastal thing. 😀

you go NonTradMed! 😀
dunno which coast we're talking about cuz the OP was talking about cali (where i have family) but i'm from the east coast
 
NonTradMed said:
As an east asian, I've never had people tell me I'm inherently better at math and science....must be a coastal thing. 😀
Did you read the IQ "study" of Asians, saying that they're smarter than some other racial groups? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
 
Alchemist:

Did you read what I wrote? I said, Asians are better represented in larger poplulations, such as in Cali, where you can find a range of intelligence. I never tried to say that ALL Asians in America is smarter, but lots of Asians in America go to Med school b/c they are from uber competitive families.

And yes, since the population in America is larger than some smaller Asian countries, there are more smart people here than in those Asian countries.

I personally think that race was not an issue in my application. I was accepted because I'm qualified.
 
happydays said:
Did you read the IQ "study" of Asians, saying that they're smarter than some other racial groups? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Just saying that people who ascribe to that idea have never spoken to ME about it . I must be giving off anti-asian vibes or something. :meanie:
 
I'm one of those asian types.

But I got a 1100 SAT and a 24R MCAT. I think this just comes show that not all asian people are smart or what not.

Sometimes my caucasian friends like to joke when I do badly on an exam:

"Oh what the hell is wrong with you? Oh I get it, your becoming an American"

And I utterly hate that joke because:

1) It's mean to me as an asian.
2) It's a degrading joke that caucasian are using against themselves too.
3) It seems to imply that America is in some sort of defeatism mentality.
4) It's a bad joke because everyone is at a loss in it.
5) It represents a very distorted view that too many Americans are buying
into

Look, I had a friend of mine in school studying biology. Her parents are both from Poland. And she is extremely well motivated and works very hard. It's no wonder she got into Jefferson Medical in Philadelphia.

But we don't go running around saying that "Polish people" are smart.

No instead we go running around saying that asian people are smart because:

1) They look different from most other Americans
2) They seem to do well as a whole
3) Because they are different + They seem to do well = They must be smarter

And that is a really bad conclusion. Basically, Americans have cherry picked an ethnic group out because they look different from most Americans.

No, rather I beleive that it is the children of immirants who are the ones who do the best. I mentioned my Polish friend. I also have a friend who's parents come from Austria in Europe. He's very hard working and morally upright as well.

Immigrants work hard, reguardless of race or country. This is the United States of America. This is the nation where if you work hard, you can make it big - and all those immigrants know it - that's why they work so hard.

In Germany, you can work as hard as you want, but the government overthere takes out so much of your paycheck that it ain't worth it. A lot of people stop working and decide to live off of the welfare system over there.

But if you come to America, hell you can make it big if you work hard and save money for your children's education.

And so a lot of Eastern Europeans are trying to get into America, and many do and raise thier kids up here. And these kids are pushed to work hard like thier parents.

But nobody enertains thoughts in thier heads that these kids are smart. No one does because for the most part you can't physically look at them and tell that their parents came to America only 20 years ago. Unless your someone who studies European ethniticy and physical characteristics carefully, you won't be able to distinguish a recent Polish immigrant from an "American mut" so to speak.


And yes I do beleive that Mexican immigrants will one day positively impact this country one day. I mean look at how hard they work every day out in the blazing summer hot fields and the bone chilling cold winter days! That's bloody hard work and I have to respect them for that.



Now there are a lot of other factors too. Look at Vietnam for example, when that nation was at war for some 30+ continous years, people over there began looking at doctors as if they were some sort of God send. The fighting got so bad that both sides became dellusional, so much that it was not uncommon for the North Vietnamese laying an ambush to stop shooting at a South Vietnamese force if they realized there was a doctor in that battalion or group they were shooting at.

So you see, in foreign countries and not just America, people have a God like opinion of doctors. So when immigrants come to America, they push thier children into becomming doctors because in the backs of thier mind they remember the terrible warfare in the old country. They remember the artillery falling down on thier cities. They remember seeing soldier pulling men out of the hulls of burning tanks only to see the rescuers get cut down by sniper fire.

I would not be suprised if 20 years from now if we see a huge influx of medical students whose parents came from Iraq.
 
Complicated issues. Funny little story.
After a test my biochem prof asked me to stay after class. She then explained, "I just wanted to meet the person with the non-asian name who wrote such a good exam." 😱 That's just wrong.
 
happydays said:
Alchemist:

Did you read what I wrote? I said, Asians are better represented in larger poplulations, such as in Cali, where you can find a range of intelligence. I never tried to say that ALL Asians in America is smarter, but lots of Asians in America go to Med school b/c they are from uber competitive families.

And yes, since the population in America is larger than some smaller Asian countries, there are more smart people here than in those Asian countries.

I personally think that race was not an issue in my application. I was accepted because I'm qualified.

sorry, i didn't get to read what you wrote til today. i don't disagree that in any ethnic group, there is a range of intelligence. ppl are all different. and there are reasons why there are so many asians in places like cali and nyc since they are port cities. lots of asians came into cali thru angel island and the same via ellis island to nyc. i don't necessarily think "lots of asians" go to med school cuz they are from "uber competitive" families. i would agree a little more with the poster who pointed out how doctors were viewed in the immigrants' home countries and that might be why asian parents push their kids toward medicine. if asian parents and kids are uber competitive, why medicine more than say, law or anything else? i can say i grew up in a competitive family but my brother is an IT person and i came to medicine after working a decade in biomedical research. our parents did push us toward medicine when we were younger but we learned to ignore them after high school since one is stuck with one's choice of career and spouse (even after our parents are gone) for a lifetime so those things are not sth to do to please one's parents.

its true, lots of asians are in med schools but there are lots of asians in colleges or engineering majors as well (probably more in engineering if i had to guess) - but ppl don't really point that out. they might point it out in terms of colleges with the quotas during the 80s at certain colleges and with the whole affirmative action debate but i don't see ppl whining that there are ALOT of asian engineers. why make an argument without much quantitative evidence and mostly with assumptions we can make from grouping a group of ppl together who look alike? as i pointed out before, when ppl say 'asian' they tend to mean the east and south asians b/c they are visibly successful but there are alot of other asian groups out there who haven't hit that level of success yet for various reasons. your points might have some truth to it but i was only cautioning against generalizing/stereotyping esp by using external physical features. and part of our disagreement might stem from the fact that i might look at statistical analysis slightly different than you coming from a viewpoint and background as a scientist. no biggie. and i never implied race had anything to do with you getting into med school (i don't even know if you are asian or not) and am glad that you got in. and i don't think being asian affected my application too much either so let's just table the topic since we don't seem to agree. i just think that ppl should stop grouping ppl by physical features and attributing generalized characteristics to them. by 2050, we won't be minorities anymore though in terms of political power who's to say and by 2010, census statistics predict that there will be more spanish speakers in this country than english speakers. we're becoming a more global world and i just wish that ppl would look at others as individuals more than as a group.
 
There are lots of Asians in Medicine, and there are lots of Asians in Engineering and science. The topic was devoted to why Asians are over represented in Medicine, not any other fields.

I think it has to do with the "dream of success through a non-subjective matter" that made science such a big hit in Asia. Science is precieved as an objective study, and since advancements in the science world is directly correlated with economic success, that's when the big push came in. Asian's are not into law as much, since that's more of a "subjective" matter. However, since the economic boast, more and more Asians are pursuing business.


When the competitive immigrants were a minority, so was the Asian representation in med schools (a lot lower than the stats today). I would say before the 1970's, or even before the 1980's, Asians did not make a huge appearance in the medical world. When the "brain drain" came in the mid-80's and early 90's (meaning, the most competitive students are making their way to America), that's when more and more Asians are going to med school and obtaining science degrees.
 
Cats and cradles,

I agree about your observation of immigrants. It's not really the race, it's just that those who had to work hard to get here, tend to teach their kids to work hard. But it's about working hard in high tech fields, in school, that gets one noticed. Although Mexican immigrants work hard, they need to focus more on working hard in school. I'm not saying all mexicans want to stay working for below minimum wage, and I know that more and more good students in boarder states are Mexican students; it's just that ORM students (Chinese and Indian) tend to come from immigrant families who came here based on their academic success. (sorry about the huge run-on sentence.)


And I think your prediction about Iraq will be true, too. America tend to make their "occupied" countries stronger. Just look at South Korea and Japan (although they didn't technically occupy those countries).
 
the alchemist said:
i didn't say other cultures do not have a work ethic (actually i even said that they did in my original post), what i said was that the Confucian work ethic is something common among those 3 asian countries. and its not just that asians are just taught that, some of us have parents who won't get off our backs about it, regardless of whether you want to be lazy or not, its kinda hard when ur parents are always in your business and harping on you to study or even worse, checking up on you to make sure you do.

Ok, I don't understand this whole Confucian philosophy. I've been talking to a couple of people about it and gather something along the lines of:

1) It is a government system where only the smartest and the brightest get to become government officials.

2) Because people are selected, and not elected into office, the villages and small towns across the nation end up competing with one another to send thier brightest and smartest to become government officials.

3) These select few then had to take numerous test in mathematics, poetry, and then literature.

4) Only a handful of people were selected for government positions. The ones who didn't make it returned to thier communities and were unfairly looked upon as failures and cowards - and this only spurred the competition even more.

In many ways, I seem to get the impression that Confucianism is like applying for medical school. They won't take someone with a 2.4 GPA into office...


It does sort of remind me of Calvinism in a way.
 
CatsandCradles said:
Ok, I don't understand this whole Confucian philosophy. I've been talking to a couple of people about it and gather something along the lines of:

1) It is a government system where only the smartest and the brightest get to become government officials.

2) Because people are selected, and not elected into office, the villages and small towns across the nation end up competing with one another to send thier brightest and smartest to become government officials.

3) These select few then had to take numerous test in mathematics, poetry, and then literature.

4) Only a handful of people were selected for government positions. The ones who didn't make it returned to thier communities and were unfairly looked upon as failures and cowards - and this only spurred the competition even more.

In many ways, I seem to get the impression that Confucianism is like applying for medical school. They won't take someone with a 2.4 GPA into office...

It does sort of remind me of Calvinism in a way.

what you are talking is the confucian national exam systems that were existent in china and korea during the olden times (i'm not too sure about japan) and have most of the facts correct. though there was also alot of corruption during those times, so the 'best' or 'smartest' students weren't necessarily selected for government service if you get my drift.

i was talking about confucian philosophy - one of the subjects those long ago students were tested on. in confucian philosophy, there are 5 main relationships but each is hierarchical (superior to an inferior or senior to a junior): 1) emperor to subject, 2) father to son, 3) husband to wife, 4) teacher to student, and i could never translate the chinese character well for the last relationship, but i think it was 5) general to soldier or sth like that or was is older friend to younger friend? can't remember, i'd have to go back and look at the chinese characters to make sure. this philosophy teaches many things such as filial piety (children obeying/taking care of their parents), respect for elders/seniors and commitment to education and life long learning. its a philosophy that heavily influenced the east asian countries at the time and its values still somewhat permeate those cultures now. those values come out in things like the use of formal/familiar in those east asian languages - you can't just speak to anymore in the 'familiar' form esp if they are older than you or above you in position/rank. in all 3 of those countries, education is held as one of the highest ideals and most parents push their kids to go to college at least and to work hard. there's that asian joke that the kid brought home an A- and the parent asked where the rest of the A went. lots of my friends and i had parents like those, though they meant well. doctors are held in high regard in those countries (i don't know about any other countries to say) and so of course, the parents push their kids in the US to study hard and apply to med schools. i have some friends who did start med school but ended up deciding it wasn't for them and dropped out - one started an IT health care startup and the other is fashion designer but they still felt the pressure to apply to med schools when they were younger. and of course, not everyone is like this but alot of the parents are similar. hope that helps.
 
NonTradMed said:
Not sure the point of this thread other than stating the obvious.....the thread title is also misleading because Asians ARE overrepresented in med schools and top universities, that's not a myth.


I dont think the OP was saying that the fact that asians are the ORM group in medicine is a myth. (S)He was discussing the whole ideal of elite intelligence.
 
And yes I do beleive that Mexican immigrants will one day positively impact this country one day. I mean look at how hard they work every day out in the blazing summer hot fields and the bone chilling cold winter days! That's bloody hard work and I have to respect them for that.

You should see how involved many of them are in their child's education. Although many of the immigrants from Mexico/Central/South America cannot speak english well (if at all for that matter), they play a very active role in their child's education. It is interesting to see the dynamic difference in how involved afr. amer. parents are compared to the involvement of immigrant hispanics...
 
riceman04 said:
You should see how involved many of them are in their child's education. Although many of the immigrants from Mexico/Central/South America cannot speak english well (if at all for that matter), they play a very active role in their child's education. It is interesting to see the dynamic difference in how involved afr. amer. parents are compared to the involvement of immigrant hispanics...

I am glad to hear someone say a good thing about Mexican immigrants for once on SDN. Thank you Jesus!
 
Vox Animo said:
However any research that makes such bold claims, must be scrutinized. And it is a very touchy subject to most for obsious reasons. Has anyone else heard of this or found research that refutes it?

As I recall, I took a course in college that briefly mentioned this book (The Bell Curve). The professor said that there was a litany of research to refute The Bell Curve, although I cannot refer to any specific sources. Thank god, because how anyone can take such a premise seriously is absolutely ridiculous....
 
sparkle_ said:
As I recall, I took a course in college that briefly mentioned this book (The Bell Curve). The professor said that there was a litany of research to refute The Bell Curve, although I cannot refer to any specific sources. Thank god, because how anyone can take such a premise seriously is absolutely ridiculous....


.....waiting for Shredder to jump in
 
CatsandCradles said:
I'm one of those asian types.
......Now there are a lot of other factors too. Look at Vietnam for example, when that nation was at war for some 30+ continous years, people over there began looking at doctors as if they were some sort of God send. The fighting got so bad that both sides became dellusional, so much that it was not uncommon for the North Vietnamese laying an ambush to stop shooting at a South Vietnamese force if they realized there was a doctor in that battalion or group they were shooting at.

So you see, in foreign countries and not just America, people have a God like opinion of doctors. So when immigrants come to America, they push thier children into becomming doctors because in the backs of thier mind they remember the terrible warfare in the old country. They remember the artillery falling down on thier cities. They remember seeing soldier pulling men out of the hulls of burning tanks only to see the rescuers get cut down by sniper fire.

I would not be suprised if 20 years from now if we see a huge influx of medical students whose parents came from Iraq.

It's true on my situation. My mother never stop talking about the Vietnam war, her lost of family members. My mother watched her friends, family members died during the war and she was so regretful of being a teacher instead of a nurse. Hence, I'm a student at 2.x(ish), most of my non-science courses are at least 3.x(ish); now you figure my science courses. Regardless of how my performance in academic life, I'm striving for a degree in health science. Due to grades, I don't see too much options out there. Hopefully I will end up some where with something.

Thank you, CatsandCradles.
 
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