ortho: landing associate job after 2yr vs 3yr programs

[og2]

obviously the argument of 2yr versus 3yr is something that has already been discussed, but during the interview trail i was presented with a slant on this popular question that i feel hasn't really been discussed much. so, i was hoping yall would be willing to lend your 2cents

here's the deal: a resident of a 3yr program said she's heard a lot of the recent grads of 2yr programs are struggling much harder to find jobs compared to recent grads of 3yr programs because the 2yr portfolio of completed cases pales in comparison to those of the 3yr. considering the recent economic downturn and the apparent delay of retirement for many orthodontists, the resident suggested that current orthodontists who are looking to hire would want to hire a graduate that has completed more cases from start to finish.

bottom line: is the marketability of 3yr graduates significantly better than that of 2yr graduates? keep in mind this is just something i heard from a current resident and not my own opinions. i'm just trying to sort things out and find out what's more beneficial for the future.. feel free to blast me if you think this is a dumb question

thanks for any input you can give!

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[QCkid]

Honestly, I think that 2 years is a little short and 3 years is a little long. In my opinion 30 months would be an optimum amount of time but that does depend in large part upon the way a program is structured. If you are starting a lot of cases right away and jumping right into it then 30 months would give you plenty of time to finish a lot of your own cases. If you dont start a significant number of cases within the first few months then 36 months may be necessary. Another thing that I think is beneficial (I know some will disagree) is getting your board cert before finishing. If your competing for a job and you can say your board certified and the other guy cant, all other things being equal, I think you would be in a more favorable position.

 

[charlestweed]

As long as you get an ortho certificate from an accredited program and has a dental license, you have an equal chance of getting a good associate job. In most places that I had applied for an associate jobs, they didn't care if I got my training from a 2 or a 3 year program, if I had a MS degree, or if I was a board certified orthodontist. I've been a board eligible orthodontist for 9 years and I don't plan to take the ABO clinical exam to become certified...I think it is useless. The only benefit of being a board certified is when you apply for a teaching job (program chair, program director etc).

 

[og2]

As long as you get an ortho certificate from an accredited program and has a dental license, you have an equal chance of getting a good associate job. In most places that I had applied for an associate jobs, they didn't care if I got my training from a 2 or a 3 year program, if I have a MS degree, or if I am a board certified orthodontist. I've been a board eligible orthodontist for 9 years and I don't plan to take the ABO clinical exam to become certified...I think it is useless. The only benefit of being a board certified is when you apply for a teaching job (program chair, program director etc).

thanks for your input, qc and ctweed!

ctweed -- what you say about ABO certification, MS, completed cases, etc is exactly in line with my personal philosophy. up until now i've always felt all of it was unnecessary as long as a program gives me a solid clinical experience. however, considering the current economy you still feel these "extras" are unnecessary to set yourself apart? i guess i'm just worried bc at every program i visited all the residents seem to comment on how difficult the ortho associate market is these days, and it's starting to make me think that maybe it's worth it to more strongly consider going to a longer program that will enable me to be more marketable after the residency blah

 

[KlingonDentist]

what do you mean by "difficult associate market"?

 

[og2]

what do you mean by "difficult associate market"?

well, i've just been hearing left and right that it's really really hard to find associate positions after graduating from ortho residencies these days. just anecdotal from current ortho residents...

 

[barbed wire]

It's surprising what folks in 3-year programs come up with as to why a longer program is better. As with any job - it comes down to the interview and your personality. Some of the real good 2 year programs finish more cases and have more clinical experience than the 3 year programs.

 

[og2]

It's surprising what folks in 3-year programs come up with as to why a longer program is better. As with any job - it comes down to the interview and your personality. Some of the real good 2 year programs finish more cases and have more clinical experience than the 3 year programs.

thanks for your input, barbed wire. while i can understand some 2yr programs will give more clinical experience bc some 3yr programs have a lot of time off for research and other activities, is it really true that residents in select 2yr programs can start and finish more cases than some 3yr programs?? how is that possible when, if my understanding is correct, a lot of ortho tx in a residency setting will span longer than 24 months? at one particular 2yr program (that seemed to be very strong clinically) a 2nd year resident was estimating that he/she would probably end up finishing about 10 cases out of the 70 or so cases that he/she started... it seems to me that just by default a 3yr program would finish more cases even if the # cases started and clinic time is less....

 

[nug]

a resident of a 3yr program said she's heard a lot of the recent grads of 2yr programs are struggling much harder to find jobs compared to recent grads of 3yr programs because the 2yr portfolio of completed cases pales in comparison to those of the 3yr. !

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. Trust me--when you go to apply for jobs, as long as you graduated from an accredidated ortho program--that is all that matters.
It is laughable that that girl could even concoct something like that. I guess she has to justify that extra 12 months and $30K of tuition somehow.
I get the impression that many 3 year programs are 24 month programs stretched into 36 with "research days", teaching dental students how to make Hawleys, and some filler MS classes thrown in.

 

[gryffindor]

As an applicant, I really wanted to get into a 2 year program and get residency out of the way and on with my life. Instead I landed at a program that went for the full 36 months.

I don't think it makes much of a difference in finding jobs. If a GP office is hiring you, they won't have any idea how long ortho residency is and if one program is better than another. An ortho office may have no idea if programs are all 2 years or 3 years these days. There are guys practicing out there who did 18 month programs so they really have no idea what's going on in orthodontic education these days.

I have no reason to push that a 3 year program is better than a 2 year. I twiddled my thumbs a lot from January to June earlier this year as I waited out the last 6 months of my residency until June 30 when I could finally collect my certificate and leave. However, I was able to use those extra 6 months to continue learning and making mistakes in an academic setting, something I'm not really going to have the chance to do again. I saw one of my Herbst cases relapse and fail miserably while treating the patient over the course of 3 years. I debonded patients, gave them what I thought was adequate retention, and then saw them return with relapse and dealt with the consequences on the school's dime. In private practice, this mistake would be a costly rookie mistake. I think there is a great value in finishing cases you started. I had some orthodontically-speaking ugly finishes and now I know maybe those were not the best ways to treatment plan those cases. This may not translate to better hiring credentials, but it does make you a more astute clinician when you do finally get a job.

 

[og2]

As an applicant, I really wanted to get into a 2 year program and get residency out of the way and on with my life. Instead I landed at a program that went for the full 36 months.

I don't think it makes much of a difference in finding jobs. If a GP office is hiring you, they won't have any idea how long ortho residency is and if one program is better than another. An ortho office may have no idea if programs are all 2 years or 3 years these days. There are guys practicing out there who did 18 month programs so they really have no idea what's going on in orthodontic education these days.

I have no reason to push that a 3 year program is better than a 2 year. I twiddled my thumbs a lot from January to June earlier this year as I waited out the last 6 months of my residency until June 30 when I could finally collect my certificate and leave. However, I was able to use those extra 6 months to continue learning and making mistakes in an academic setting, something I'm not really going to have the chance to do again. I saw one of my Herbst cases relapse and fail miserably while treating the patient over the course of 3 years. I debonded patients, gave them what I thought was adequate retention, and then saw them return with relapse and dealt with the consequences on the school's dime. In private practice, this mistake would be a costly rookie mistake. I think there is a great value in finishing cases you started. I had some orthodontically-speaking ugly finishes and now I know maybe those were not the best ways to treatment plan those cases. This may not translate to better hiring credentials, but it does make you a more astute clinician when you do finally get a job.

gryffindor,

i really appreciate your sincere evaluation of 3yr programs. it's great that you're so honest about your feelings on the subject, and it definitely helps me gain better perspective on the situation. many congratulations on finishing your residency, and thank you so much for your help!