Ortho vs Derm Dilemna

[CaliLife]

(Meant to post it in this thread, reposting from allopathic thread)

Had to create an account just for this. MSIII here at a california school. Stuck between two specialties, am looking for guidance.

262 Step 1, 9 publications in unrelated fields. This late in the game, I'm ok doing a year of reasearch in either of these two.

Basically, I am somewhat interested in surgery, but would only consider the more "lifestyle" friendly ones. Out of these, ortho is by far more interesting to me. I am not in LOVE with the idea of being an orthopedic, but it seems cool and interesting.

What I am afraid about is the lifestyle. I can handle the brutal residency, but I do not want to be working 12 hours a day for the rest of my attending life (I am especially worried about this being the case during the first few years as an attending).

That being said, nothing else really interests me that much. Maybe medicine was a mistake, but that is a different conversation. I'm here now 3 years deep and a lot of money in. If I wasn't going to do ortho, everything else is kind of "whatever" in my mind, and would like to just pick the best lifestyle/money speciality. Derm seems to offer a great lifestyle with good pay (Medscape says 390 as the average).

Is it possible for me to work less than say 50 hours a week as an attending? That's sort of an arbitrary number but working much more than 10 hours every day would prob be my breaking point.

Is dermatology as cush as they make it out to be and do they really make that much? (I've heard multiple stories of residents being mad that they were making 250K coming out of residency and couldn't find a better gig).

I'm trying to pick between these two, and would appreciate input on the above two questions, and general advice on what you would do if you were in my shoes.

Thanks

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[afib123]

This discussion has been done in this forum many times. The points that often come up

1) Most specialities including ortho can be done in a lifestyle friendly manner if you pick the right fellowships, right area, right job and less salary. How many hours that is, only the orthopedic surgeons in the forum can comment.
2) Derm is not as easy as it is made to be. Pretty busy days with 30-40 patients being seen per day. Less than ortho but by no means a cakewalk.
Bottomline: Derm much easier lifestyle than ortho all said and done. Unless you hate derm, that is probably the easiest path to take to have a lifestyle friendly field
Can't tell you about exact hours

 

[alprazoslam]

Depends where you want to live. If you want to live the Cali life I’m sure it will cost you since a lot of people want to live there and taxes are high af.

 

[Tenk]

I work about 30 hours a week full time in EM. You can definitely work less than 50 hours a week in either ortho or derm. You might take a pay cut but that’s your choice.

 

[akwho]

Don't do ortho. We are a blue collar hardworking surgical subspeciality. We work more hours than any of the specialities besides NSGY and vascular. If every single one of your peers is willing to work twice as many hours as you where do you think that will leave you in the pecking order even as an attending? You need to love surgery to do surgery well. I've seen several burnouts who got into the speciality for the wrong reason (money, prestige) and they already hate their life. Don't become one of them.

I would do derm if I was you, great hours, lifestyle and money.

 

[Cuongoff]

Is it possible for me to work less than say 50 hours a week as an attending? That's sort of an arbitrary number but working much more than 10 hours every day would prob be my breaking point.

Is dermatology as cush as they make it out to be and do they really make that much? (I've heard multiple stories of residents being mad that they were making 250K coming out of residency and couldn't find a better gig).

I'm trying to pick between these two, and would appreciate input on the above two questions, and general advice on what you would do if you were in my shoes.

Thanks

1. Yes, you can definitely work less than 50 hours a week as an attending. I definitely work less than that as a resident (not including study time). Seeing 30-40 patients a day is nothing. I know attendings that see 50-60+ in 8 hours. It sounds a lot but each encounter is like 10-15 minutes.

2. The salary is dependent on location, saturation in the market, etc. My senior showed me a recruiter's email for a position with a 2 year partner track, 4 day work week, and 700K+ first year salary (though it is a more rural area )

 

[Dr. Doctor MD]

(Meant to post it in this thread, reposting from allopathic thread)

Had to create an account just for this. MSIII here at a california school. Stuck between two specialties, am looking for guidance.

262 Step 1, 9 publications in unrelated fields. This late in the game, I'm ok doing a year of reasearch in either of these two.

Basically, I am somewhat interested in surgery, but would only consider the more "lifestyle" friendly ones. Out of these, ortho is by far more interesting to me. I am not in LOVE with the idea of being an orthopedic, but it seems cool and interesting.

What I am afraid about is the lifestyle. I can handle the brutal residency, but I do not want to be working 12 hours a day for the rest of my attending life (I am especially worried about this being the case during the first few years as an attending).

That being said, nothing else really interests me that much. Maybe medicine was a mistake, but that is a different conversation. I'm here now 3 years deep and a lot of money in. If I wasn't going to do ortho, everything else is kind of "whatever" in my mind, and would like to just pick the best lifestyle/money speciality. Derm seems to offer a great lifestyle with good pay (Medscape says 390 as the average).

Is it possible for me to work less than say 50 hours a week as an attending? That's sort of an arbitrary number but working much more than 10 hours every day would prob be my breaking point.

Is dermatology as cush as they make it out to be and do they really make that much? (I've heard multiple stories of residents being mad that they were making 250K coming out of residency and couldn't find a better gig).

I'm trying to pick between these two, and would appreciate input on the above two questions, and general advice on what you would do if you were in my shoes.

Thanks

Ortho and Derm are both great fields and people in each tend to love what they do.

Unquestionably Ortho will be a more hour intensive residency, but after that it's up to you and how much you want to operate.

You can work as much or as little as you want as an attending, so don't think you need to work 60-80 hours a week like the retiring surgeons did their entire career. As a whole our generation is shifting towards more lifestyle changes in most fields. Any kind of elective surgery is going to provide a bearable lifestyle and ortho can definitely provide that in many subspecialties. Unless you're doing vascular/CT/Neuro/Trauma/GenSurg, then having a work life balance is possible.

That being said, I think you really need to see what you're passionate about and do that. You can choose a job that is lifestyle friendly in either field and have a decent quality of life. Regardless, I think a research year is worth it to buff your application and get specialty specific research and letters of recommendation. But my advice is to do what you love because you'll be stuck with it for the next 40 years.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Please don’t do ortho

 

[bananafish94]

Orthopedics pays more but dermatology is probably a better lifestyle. There are many other specialties where you can earn huge amounts of money...what exactly are you comparing between these two? They couldn’t be more different.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

2 year partner track, 4 day work week, and 700K+ first year salary (though it is a more rural area )

Be careful with this. Usually it’s an eat what you kill practice. They lure you in with high first year salary, and then they say, you need to pay for overhead, etc, and also get paid based on productivity. Then your second year you go down to 250K.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I am not in LOVE with the idea of being an orthopedic

Don’t do orthopaedics. You have to love it. Also it’s not a lifestyle specialty if you want to make money.
And just as an FYI, no one says “an orthopedic.” It’s either orthopaedic surgeon, or if you want to be informal, “orthopod.”

 

[Gilakend]

Don't do ortho. We are a blue collar hardworking surgical subspeciality. We work more hours than any of the specialities besides NSGY and vascular. If every single one of your peers is willing to work twice as many hours as you where do you think that will leave you in the pecking order even as an attending? You need to love surgery to do surgery well. I've seen several burnouts who got into the speciality for the wrong reason (money, prestige) and they already hate their life. Don't become one of them.

I would do derm if I was you, great hours, lifestyle and money.

What’s your opinion on those who say “any specialty can have a good lifestyle” such as those who say you could easily find a gig working less than 50 hours in ortho?

Do you think ortho works that’s much because they want to or it’s a necessary part of the field? Just curious on your opinion.

Thank you!

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

What’s your opinion on those who say “any specialty can have a good lifestyle” such as those who say you could easily find a gig working less than 50 hours in ortho?

Do you think ortho works that’s much because they want to or it’s a necessary part of the field? Just curious on your opinion.

Thank you!

It is very practice dependent. As a young attending, you will be working more because your senior partners will have you take more call, regardless of the type of practice you’re in. When you are more senior, it is easier to structure your schedule in the way you want. But that typically does not happen for a while. Nothing worth having comes easy.

 

[nofliesonme]

Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it will seem like an hour. Sit with someone who is attractive to you for an hour, and it seems like a minute, That is relativity.....Albert Einstein.... Operating theater versus clinic.....Choose wisely

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

Staring at rashes all day when you're interested in orthopedics.

Smart.

 

[PatsyStone]

Is dermatology as cush as they make it out to be and do they really make that much? (I've heard multiple stories of residents being mad that they were making 250K coming out of residency and couldn't find a better gig).

I have never heard of this. I am a derm resident in my last year of training. Jobs are plentiful and salaries are great. The only situations I can imagine where someone is making 250k as a new derm is if that it is their base salary before production bonuses (even then, this would be low), or if they are opening their own solo practice in a tight market like SoCal, Miami, or NYC. Starting salaries for general private practice derm are in the 350-450 range for a 4 day work week. Academics range from hilariously low to comparable to private practice; it depends on the location and university.

 

[PhillyMed777]

I have never heard of this. I am a derm resident in my last year of training. Jobs are plentiful and salaries are great. The only situations I can imagine where someone is making 250k as a new derm is if that it is their base salary before production bonuses (even then, this would be low), or if they are opening their own solo practice in a tight market like SoCal, Miami, or NYC. Starting salaries for general private practice derm are in the 350-450 range for a 4 day work week. Academics range from hilariously low to comparable to private practice; it depends on the location and university.

Haha yes. In academics a resident was legit offered 175k. Wont say the institution tho

 

[username456789]

1. Yes, you can definitely work less than 50 hours a week as an attending. I definitely work less than that as a resident (not including study time). Seeing 30-40 patients a day is nothing. I know attendings that see 50-60+ in 8 hours. It sounds a lot but each encounter is like 10-15 minutes.

2. The salary is dependent on location, saturation in the market, etc. My senior showed me a recruiter's email for a position with a 2 year partner track, 4 day work week, and 700K+ first year salary (though it is a more rural area )

Be careful with this. Usually it’s an eat what you kill practice. They lure you in with high first year salary, and then they say, you need to pay for overhead, etc, and also get paid based on productivity. Then your second year you go down to 250K.

Was going to say the same thing as @OrthoTraumaMD

I used to receive very similar recruiting emails in derm residency. “$600-700k salary first year, $100k signing bonus, 4 day work week, partnership track!”

These are usually predatory private equity backed practices or predatory multi specialty groups who will lure you in with this and then not only make you repay your bonus when you don’t hit their unrealistic productivity benchmarks, but will massively throttle your income during the subsequent years of the multi-year contract they had you sign.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You’ll either break your back to earn that money or you will pay it all back. These groups thrive on squeezing money from you to pay the shareholders/vultures. Having some idea of what the reasonable collections total would be during your first couple years helps massive later with these deals out. At a bare minimum, they would want you to be collecting at least 2-2.5x what they’re paying you. Depending on your practice set up and how busy you are, you might expect to collect $800k-1M if you are lucky and hard working. Which means you might get $350-400k (pretax of course).

No dermatologists just out of residency are worth anywhere close to $600-$700,000.

 

[kb1900]

Was going to say the same thing as @OrthoTraumaMD

I used to receive very similar recruiting emails in derm residency. “$600-700k salary first year, $100k signing bonus, 4 day work week, partnership track!”

These are usually predatory private equity backed practices or predatory multi specialty groups who will lure you in with this and then not only make you repay your bonus when you don’t hit their unrealistic productivity benchmarks, but will massively throttle your income during the subsequent years of the multi-year contract they had you sign.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You’ll either break your back to earn that money or you will pay it all back. These groups thrive on squeezing money from you to pay the shareholders/vultures. Having some idea of what the reasonable collections total would be during your first couple years helps massive later with these deals out. At a bare minimum, they would want you to be collecting at least 2-2.5x what they’re paying you. Depending on your practice set up and how busy you are, you might expect to collect $800k-1M if you are lucky and hard working. Which means you might get $350-400k (pretax of course).

No dermatologists just out of residency are worth anywhere close to $600-$700,000.

How does one avoid ending up in these seemingly terrible contracts? A good lawyer before signing papers?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

How does one avoid ending up in these seemingly terrible contracts? A good lawyer before signing papers?

If it sounds too good to be true, it is. The purpose of a contract is to chain and exploit you. It is up to you to make sure you are protected.
Any contract should be read several times and reviewed by a good attorney.
As an FYI, most major academic centers don’t negotiate contracts. You take it or leave it. Most of your negotiations are if you’re going into private practice.

 

[Slack3r]

Haha yes. In academics a resident was legit offered 175k. Wont say the institution tho

I’m guessing Penn.

 

[allantois]

ENT would be a better surgical choice

 

[Lawpy]

Was going to say the same thing as @OrthoTraumaMD

I used to receive very similar recruiting emails in derm residency. “$600-700k salary first year, $100k signing bonus, 4 day work week, partnership track!”

These are usually predatory private equity backed practices or predatory multi specialty groups who will lure you in with this and then not only make you repay your bonus when you don’t hit their unrealistic productivity benchmarks, but will massively throttle your income during the subsequent years of the multi-year contract they had you sign.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. You’ll either break your back to earn that money or you will pay it all back. These groups thrive on squeezing money from you to pay the shareholders/vultures. Having some idea of what the reasonable collections total would be during your first couple years helps massive later with these deals out. At a bare minimum, they would want you to be collecting at least 2-2.5x what they’re paying you. Depending on your practice set up and how busy you are, you might expect to collect $800k-1M if you are lucky and hard working. Which means you might get $350-400k (pretax of course).

No dermatologists just out of residency are worth anywhere close to $600-$700,000.

I'm curious but how do you get those malignant private equity firms out of derm? Or is that a lost cause? Because it seems a lot of derm's problems are due to private equity being complete garbage

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Why medicine at all, if you are looking for lifestyle..

 

[Rekt]

I'm curious but how do you get those malignant private equity firms out of derm? Or is that a lost cause? Because it seems a lot of derm's problems are due to private equity being complete garbage

You don't.

This already happened forever ago to emergency medicine and now it's normal. Next step will be these PE/CMG groups opening residencies to flood the market (just like EM right now). The collections won't be different, but the supply will. Essentially free money to the companies because they'll pay less and less salary.

 

[jambro]

As long as healthcare is a primarily capitalist system, you're gonna have PE looking to exploit every last dollar from physicians and patients...

 

[fleetfox]

(Meant to post it in this thread, reposting from allopathic thread)

Had to create an account just for this. MSIII here at a california school. Stuck between two specialties, am looking for guidance.

262 Step 1, 9 publications in unrelated fields. This late in the game, I'm ok doing a year of reasearch in either of these two.

Basically, I am somewhat interested in surgery

Seriously, don't go into Ortho. You don't sound like you particularly enjoy anything in medicine. You'll be better off doing rads, derm or anesthesia, where you can work fewer hours, make plenty of money, and have enough free time to pursue interests outside of work.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Ah ortho vs derm that very natural decision point for a medical student.

 

[Lucca]

Ah ortho vs derm that very natural decision point for a medical student.

when will they start a combined Orthoderm training pathway for the millions of med students that can’t decide!?

 

[BorderlineQueen]

when will they start a combined Orthoderm training pathway for the millions of med students that can’t decide!?

I hope they combine the salary of Derm and Ortho so after completing a residency in Derm/Ortho you're making close to 1 mil.

 

[LoGo]

I also was interested in ortho and derm, interviewed for both.

 

[CidHighwind]

Do Derm. No offense, but I can tell you don’t have a strong interest in Ortho. I feel like you can’t half-ass it through a surgery residency. While in Derm you’ll still have to study, you’re obviously already good at that and can have more time off. Or do Derm and do a mohs fellowship and make more than most ortho docs.

 

[Slack3r]

Ah ortho vs derm that very natural decision point for a medical student.

Generally, both fields deal with relatively healthy patient populations that tend to do well, and are (at least somewhat) motivated to get better. None of your patients really die, and your interventions can provide big improvements in quality of life and patient functioning.

They’re very different fields, but I’ve met a significant number of derms who were considering ortho, and not always for the rea$on everyone thinks.

 

[CidHighwind]

Generally, both fields deal with relatively healthy patient populations that tend to do well, and are (at least somewhat) motivated to get better. None of your patients really die, and your interventions can provide big improvements in quality of life and patient functioning.

They’re very different fields, but I’ve met a significant number of derms who were considering ortho, and not always for the rea$on everyone thinks.

Aren’t most ortho patients little old ladies that break their hip? Or just older people in general that have osteoporosis so their bones are weak? People choose between them because of the money, there’s no shame in admitting that despite what the people here say.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Generally, both fields deal with relatively healthy patient populations that tend to do well, and are (at least somewhat) motivated to get better. None of your patients really die, and your interventions can provide big improvements in quality of life and patient functioning.

They’re very different fields, but I’ve met a significant number of derms who were considering ortho, and not always for the rea$on everyone thinks.

Yeah. They’re very different fields. Very different.

 

[slowthai]

Aren’t most ortho patients little old ladies that break their hip? Or just older people in general that have osteoporosis so their bones are weak? People choose between them because of the money, there’s no shame in admitting that despite what the people here say.

This is so reductive. The pt population has a large range. They see everyone. Think about it, the most common reason that people seek out doctors is because of MSK issues (60%). I don't understand how it could be because of money, because ortho makes significantly more. Furthermore, there are other fields that make similar money, or at least in the ballpark: rads, nsx, vascular, CT, ENT, etc.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Aren’t most ortho patients little old ladies that break their hip? Or just older people in general that have osteoporosis so their bones are weak? People choose between them because of the money, there’s no shame in admitting that despite what the people here say.

Orthopaedics runs from pediatric/congenital issues like Clubfoot, SCFE, scoliosis and CP to sports injuries (ACL, Rotator cuff) to arthritis/joint replacement. We take call and unless you’re at a trauma center you’refixing mostly hip fractures and distal radii and other osteoporitc fracturea, yes. But in general your practice tends to be healthy patients.

 

[CidHighwind]

This is so reductive. The pt population has a large range. They see everyone. Think about it, the most common reason that people seek out doctors is because of MSK issues (60%). I don't understand how it could be because of money, because ortho makes significantly more. Furthermore, there are other fields that make similar money, or at least in the ballpark: rads, nsx, vascular, CT, ENT, etc.

You can say “they see a wide range of people” about a lot of specialties. If that’s what you want just go into FM. People choose between those two because of money and lifestyle, no shame in that. Ortho makes one of the highest salaries and Derm has the best lifestyle. Again, nothing wrong with wanting to choose a specialty for that reason.

 

[slowthai]

You can say “they see a wide range of people” about a lot of specialties. If that’s what you want just go into FM. People choose between those two because of money and lifestyle, no shame in that. Ortho makes one of the highest salaries and Derm has the best lifestyle. Again, nothing wrong with wanting to choose a specialty for that reason.

I only said wide range of people in response to your inaccurate assertion that it's only one narrow category of pts that are seen in ortho. But I agree. People always say seeing a wide range of pts as a reason to go into a field, but most specialties do, so it shouldn't really be a decision point.

If it was all about money, everyone would be gunning for nsurg too. If it was all about lifestyle, everyone would be gunning for psych and FM as well. There's a lot of nuance in these decisions that you're leaving out. Even people motivated primarily by money and lifestyle consider other factors, like can I actually tolerate what I'm doing for 40+ hours a week, for 25+ years?

 

[VincentAdultman]

You can say “they see a wide range of people” about a lot of specialties. If that’s what you want just go into FM. People choose between those two because of money and lifestyle, no shame in that. Ortho makes one of the highest salaries and Derm has the best lifestyle. Again, nothing wrong with wanting to choose a specialty for that reason.

I mean, there kind of is.

 

[CidHighwind]

I mean, there kind of is.

Why? The reason people have jobs and work is to pay bills and do what you want in your spare time. If there’s a field in medicine you’re genuinely passionate for, do that. The reality is that a lot of students don’t have that “a ha” moment when choosing specialties. Most medical students IRL realize this, hence why the most competitive specialties just do happen to pay the most, and why the most lucrative fellowships (GI and cards) are the most competitive.

I only said wide range of people in response to your inaccurate assertion that it's only one narrow category of pts that are seen in ortho. But I agree. People always say seeing a wide range of pts as a reason to go into a field, but most specialties do, so it shouldn't really be a decision point.

If it was all about money, everyone would be gunning for nsurg too. If it was all about lifestyle, everyone would be gunning for psych and FM as well. There's a lot of nuance in these decisions that you're leaving out. Even people motivated primarily by money and lifestyle consider other factors, like can I actually tolerate what I'm doing for 40+ hours a week, for 25+ years?

People do gun for nsurg. It’s not as talked about as Derm, ortho, or plastics due to the perceived workaholic lifestyle, but it’s something you have to gun for as well. It’s funny you mention psych, since it has gone from a specialty that anyone can match into, to a fairly competitive specialty since everyone heard that they can make 300k+ and have really good hours. Everyone saying “psych is the new Derm” and all that. On another note, it’s funny how you talk about nuance in your post but failed to pick up that I wasn’t talking about ONLY one thing. Derm is super competitive because it has BOTH a very high salary and great hours. Everything else is secondary.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Why? The reason people have jobs and work is to pay bills and do what you want in your spare time. If there’s a field in medicine you’re genuinely passionate for, do that. The reality is that a lot of students don’t have that “a ha” moment when choosing specialties. Most medical students IRL realize this, hence why the most competitive specialties just do happen to pay the most, and why the most lucrative fellowships (GI and cards) are the most competitive.

Because ortho (or any other surgical subspecialty tbh) isn’t like being a middle manager. If you’re not passionate about it, it’s a shtty job and you’re gonna burn out.

 

[slowthai]

Because ortho (or any other surgical subspecialty tbh) isn’t like being a middle manager. If you’re not passionate about it, it’s a shtty job and you’re gonna burn out.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Usually the people gunning for these hardcore fields tend to have a passion. And they have to prove it on aways. So it's not just talk.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I’m a first year ortho trauma attending. I love my job and wouldn’t trade it for anything. I have many friends that are dermatologists, and none of them would want my job. They all wanted Derm for the Mix of Easy lifestyle and Relatively higher compensation, they are pretty up front about it. No way in hell they’d want my job. Don’t get me wrong, I love my job, but worked over 16 hours two days last week, the other three days were 10+ hours too. On vacation this week, but getting calls everyday about patients that I operated on, or other surgeons want to transfer for level of care. I don’t think dermatologists are about that life. Therefore, I can’t take anyone seriously who is deciding between Derm and ortho.

 

[slowthai]

Why? The reason people have jobs and work is to pay bills and do what you want in your spare time. If there’s a field in medicine you’re genuinely passionate for, do that. The reality is that a lot of students don’t have that “a ha” moment when choosing specialties. Most medical students IRL realize this, hence why the most competitive specialties just do happen to pay the most, and why the most lucrative fellowships (GI and cards) are the most competitive.



People do gun for nsurg. It’s not as talked about as Derm, ortho, or plastics due to the perceived workaholic lifestyle, but it’s something you have to gun for as well. It’s funny you mention psych, since it has gone from a specialty that anyone can match into, to a fairly competitive specialty since everyone heard that they can make 300k+ and have really good hours. Everyone saying “psych is the new Derm” and all that. On another note, it’s funny how you talk about nuance in your post but failed to pick up that I wasn’t talking about ONLY one thing. Derm is super competitive because it has BOTH a very high salary and great hours. Everything else is secondary.

I said "everyone" would be gunning for nsurg. Not some people. I was responding to your point that money/lifestyle are the most important for most. The reason it's not talked about like the other specialties you mentioned is mainly because it's not anywhere near as popular. People that gun for nsx are a highly self-selected group of people.

Again, I agree with you that money/lifestyle are major drivers of specialty selection, but you can't leave out the other factors that people consider. That's really my main point.

Don't try to act like I missed the nuance of your post. Everyone knows derm makes very good money and has a great lifestyle. It's like you're ignoring my point entirely.

 

[CidHighwind]

I said "everyone" would be gunning for nsurg. Not some people. I was responding to your point that money/lifestyle are the most important for most. The reason it's not talked about like the other specialties you mentioned is mainly because it's not anywhere near as popular. People that gun for nsx are a highly self-selected group of people.

Again, I agree with you that money/lifestyle are major drivers of specialty selection, but you can't leave out the other factors that people consider. That's really my main point.

Don't try to act like I missed the nuance of your post. Everyone knows derm makes very good money and has a great lifestyle. It's like you're ignoring my point entirely.

A lot of (lay)people like the idea of being a neurosurgeon. It’s up there with astronaut and race car driver as a dream job. I do agree that a lot of people that want to go into nsurg really want to do it. I would bet that if nsurg was seen as “lifestyle-lite” like optho, it would be even more sought after.

I would say about ortho that a lot of M1s in my class were gung ho about ortho coming in. It has really high pay and a “macho” factor to the specialty that appeals to certain people. Also I agree with the people saying you need to actually want to do surgery to get through it. It’s probably much easier to “power through” a Derm residency than an ortho one.

My main point is that there JUST so happens to be a link between competitiveness and salary and lifestyle. There are plenty of residencies with a small number of total spots (like nuclear medicine) that aren’t competitive at all, so number of spots doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[slowthai]

My main point is that there JUST so happens to be a link between competitiveness and salary and lifestyle. There are plenty of residencies with a small number of total spots (like nuclear medicine) that aren’t competitive at all, so number of spots doesn’t tell the whole story.

Agreed.