Orthodontist's salary

[ItsGavinC]

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So ortho take home more than most other specialties?

Absolutely not.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Just to bring the mood down a little...
From everything I've heard, ortho is tough as hell these days. Getting a job really hard now, and the income of orthodontists is going down due to market saturation, as well as GPs doing more ortho.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think ortho is any kind of cake-walk anymore.

I agree with all of this.

 

[gryffindor]

Did any students in dental school gunning for ortho ever consider gunning for dermatology in medical school? It seems like one who is putting in so much work to get into an orthodontics residency could most likely get into derm or other ROAD specialties.

😕

How can a dental student apply for medical specialties intended for medical students? Your question/statement makes no sense.

 

[maryrwallace]

Dont know...

 

[ItsGavinC]

😕

How can a dental student apply for medical specialties intended for medical students? Your question/statement makes no sense.

He's asking whether a student who exhibits the type of dedication and drive to make it into an ortho residency had ever considered going to medical school and matching into a competitive medical residency.

In other words, he's wondering why a good student would "settle" for ortho and not go to medical school and get into a competitive specialty.

 

[DrJeff]

He's asking whether a student who exhibits the type of dedication and drive to make it into an ortho residency had ever considered going to medical school and matching into a competitive medical residency.

In other words, he's wondering why a good student would "settle" for ortho and not go to medical school and get into a competitive specialty.

 

[charlestweed]

Did any students in dental school gunning for ortho ever consider gunning for dermatology in medical school? It seems like one who is putting in so much work to get into an orthodontics residency could most likely get into derm or other ROAD specialties.

Getting into a dental school and an ortho program is a lot easier than getting into a med school and a derm program. The first part of the dental board exam is also a lot easier than the medical exam.

My younger brother is a lot smarter than I am…the reason I say this is because he got accepted to med school and I couldn’t. When he was a med student, he presented his research project at different med schools and won prizes. He got 9 derm interviews. He did not match to derm and had to do GI instead. If my brother listened to my advice and went to dental school, he should have no problem getting accepted to ortho.

 

[Lethstang]

this thread made me giggle like 9 time guys. lolol love it.

 

[hot]

anyone that tries to do anything just for the money is going to have a rude awakening one day. if you don't love something and have no interest in it, you aren't going to want to make any "greens" or "chedda".

if you are trying to make money, you become a GP, open up 7 practices, delegate your work by hiring associates/partners, take 50% of the profits, and bam. you just made yourself more money than most specialists without having to pay back debt from a residency. so when people say everyone wants to do ortho just for money-please don't assume that is always the case. maybe people like to do ortho because they are actually passionate about the cerebral aspect of the career? or enjoy working with patient populations that come to see you on an elective basis.

if you are interested in ortho just for the money, i would recommend considering obtaining an MBA. being an orthodontist doesn't mean you will make money. you actually have to be skillful, as most people will see you based on word of mouth.

at my school:
9 people are applying OMFS
9 for pedo
3 for endo
2 for perio
1 for ortho
1 for pros

currently endo, pedo, & OMFS are doing very well in my state.

 

[ortho lurker]

Why is ortho such a desireable field? The only reason I ask this is because I dont have alot of interest in ortho and therefore dont see that huge of a difference in ortho vs say.. general dentistry. I understand the work is different but in both cases you're correcting oral pathologies - in this way it seems that by being interested in one you would also be intrested in the other.
If it's not the work what is it about ortho?

Perhaps it would help if you have had braces before? I believe that most applicants desire ortho for the lifestyle and the interest in the field first, and the $ second because omfs, endo, pedo and a gp owner of a dental chain make more. Here are a few things that make ortho unique:

1. Probably the only specialty where you don't have to place a glove on: set brackets on a stone model and utilize indirect bonding, send to sure smile for finishing bends, and have assistants do the re-ties and wire changes in between.
2. No injections!
3. No need for a DEA license.
4. Average patient appointment is 5 minutes or less.
5. Patient satisfaction rates high while dental anxiety rates low. Patients are more likely to be thinking "what color do I want today" rather than asking you: "Is this going to hurt?".
6. No real emergencies. You can go to sleep at night without the worry of anything bleeding out.
7. One of only 3 dental fields that the average layperson knows about which makes it directly marketable and receives prestige from the public: gp, ortho, and oral surgeon. Pedo may be debatable because you have to educate the public that you spent extra years of training, but an average person would not know of or know how to find an endo, perio, prosth, etc without a gp referral. When the topic of "what do you do for a living?" comes up, the answer is always "ohhh!" when someone finds out that I am an orthodontist. The public may not be aware that ortho may be declining faster than the other dental fields, but they still have the perception that ortho is made of $$$ and hence this generalized misconception that orthos only do it for the green.

 

[Lethstang]

I believ u meant for the chedda

 

[OG1]

7. One of only 3 dental fields that the average layperson knows about which makes it directly marketable and receives prestige from the public: gp, ortho, and oral surgeon. Pedo may be debatable because you have to educate the public that you spent extra years of training, but an average person would not know of or know how to find an endo, perio, prosth, etc without a gp referral. When the topic of "what do you do for a living?" comes up, the answer is always "ohhh!" when someone finds out I am an orthodontist. The public may not be aware that ortho may be declining faster than the other dental fields, but they still have the perception that ortho is made of $$$ and hence this generalized misconception that orthos only do it for the green.

To the contrary . . . the AAO recently spent a considerable amount of money on a marketing campaign aimed at educating the general population that an orthodontist has received 2-3 years of extra education specializing in orthodontics. I've heard plenty of people say, "My dentist is also my orthodontist!" The average person knows an orthodontist straightens teeth but many don't understand the difference between a dentist and a specialist.

 

[yappy]

Thanks for the insight. I now see how it's unique. What's funny is most the things that you said makes it a little unattractive to me. I used to be a combat medic so don't mind emergencies, blood, or injections - I actully look forward to doing this stuff as a dentist if I can get into dental school.

Perhaps it would help if you have had

1. Probably the only specialty where you don't have to place a glove on: set brackets on a stone model and utilize indirect bonding, send to sure smile for finishing bends, and have assistants do the re-ties and wire changes in between.
2. No injections!
3. No need for a DEA license.
4. Average patient appointment is 5 minutes or less.
5. Patient satisfaction rates high while dental anxiety rates low. Patients are more likely to be thinking "what color do I want today" rather than asking you: "Is this going to hurt?".
6. No real emergencies. You can go to sleep at night without the worry of anything bleeding out.
7. One of only 3 dental fields that the average layperson knows about which makes it directly marketable and receives prestige from the public: gp, ortho, and oral surgeon. Pedo may be debatable because you have to educate the public that you spent extra years of training, but an average person would not know of or know how to find an endo, perio, prosth, etc without a gp referral. When the topic of "what do you do for a living?" comes up, the answer is always "ohhh!" when someone finds out I am an orthodontist. The public may not be aware that ortho may be declining faster than the other dental fields, but they still have the perception that ortho is made of $$$ and hence this generalized misconception that orthos only do it for the green.

 

[ortho lurker]

From reading around on SDN, that may be true for OMFS, but Ortho is a lot more unpredictable, even for top students.. I think I am just basing this off of one person's post, but can someone corroborate?

There is a lot of politickin involved in the ortho admissions process....

 

[charlestweed]

There is a lot of politickin involved in the ortho admissions process....

So is dermatology. If you rank high in your class and do well on the dental board part 1 you are guaranteed to match to ortho. You may not get in the 1st time but you will get in eventually if you reapply and reapply. The majority of ortho applicants get in because of their outstanding academic achievement. There is only a small percentage (this %may be higher than other specialties) of ortho applicants who get in because of special connections.

 

[BenDentalMatrix]

I would just be curious if the invisilign makes the orthondist's salary better or worse

 

[hopefullyadent]

just got off the phone with the director from every ortho program in the country....annd.....we have decided to restrict ortho only to those who finish number one or number 2 in the nation

 

[charlestweed]

What would be considered high in the class? Top 1-2%

I don’t know how high of the class rank one has to have since I went to a P/F dental school that doesn’t rank the students. I think it is more important to have a high board score. Since all dental schools are not equal, the ortho programs have to use a standardized test (NDBE part 1) to compare dental students from different dental schools. If your board score is in the mid-high 90 (95-99), your chance of getting accepted is extremely high. If you have a low 90 (91 or lower), you have to show other things such as research, class rank, extracurricular activities, leadership quality etc.

I don’t know what will happen when the board becomes P/F in 2012.

 

[HuyetKiem]

I would just be curious if the invisilign makes the orthondist's salary better or worse

I'm sure everybody's benefiting from Invisalign's massive ad campaign. At my office, for example, many patients come inquire about Invisalign. We give them the estimated cost of treatment for metal , clear brackets and my own clear aligner and name & phone number of other dentists who offer Invisalign close by. More than half of them come back and choose our treatment due to financial reason. Many of them are surprised to know that there are other cheaper alternatives other than Invisalign. 😀😀

 

[BenDentalMatrix]

I'm sure everybody's benefiting from Invisalign's massive ad campaign. At my office, for example, many patients come inquire about Invisalign. We give them the estimated cost of treatment for metal , clear brackets and my own clear aligner and name & phone number of other dentists who offer Invisalign close by. More than half of them come back and choose our treatment due to financial reason. Many of them are surprised to know that there are other cheaper alternatives other than Invisalign. 😀😀

Wow, that's interesting, HuyetKiem.

Is it the same with teeth whitening services? I remember BriteSmile was all the rage, and now it's more Zoom. Do you have a similar selling process in offering cheaper alternatives?

 

[KinKs]

Have a look at the following article. I personally think that his predictions are overstated and a little too grim. The article was written in 2009

http://www.orthodonticproductsonline.com/issues/articles/2009-09_15.asp

Is It Time to Close Some Orthodontic Specialty Programs?

by Brett A. Blake

A friend recently told me of a quote he had heard while living in Taiwan as a missionary: "If you visit a country for a week, you can write a book. If you visit for several months, you can only write a paper." This article is written on information that would be gathered by the weeklong tourist, so I invite and expect that those with firsthand knowledge will provide correction, further insight, and your opinions. (My e-mail is in my bio.)
With the development of new technologies that allow GPs to treat many orthodontic cases, the flat growth projected in the US population, and the fact that there are fewer available orthodontic educators, it is time to rationalize the number of orthodontic specialty programs and the corresponding number of graduates in the United States.
In this country, the total number of practices offering orthodontics has grown from fewer than 10,000 at the turn of the century to more than 45,000 today. (Most of those are GPs offering aligners, as reported by Align Technology.) Demand for orthodontics has not matched the increase in supply and recently may have even declined. Therefore, the need for more orthodontic specialists has declined significantly, and demand for trained orthodontists should permanently fall below today's need as GPs treat more of the cases and technology to support the GP's efforts improves.
According to economic principles of supply and demand, the price of orthodontics should begin to free fall in the coming years if something is not done to significantly increase demand and/or to decrease supply. I argue that efforts should be made to do both.
Many might assume that the profession is in temporary decline. At the most recent SureSmile users' meeting, Orametrix CEO Charles L. Abraham presented data from the US Census Bureau and the AAO Patient Census Survey that showed that a sharp decline in the number of 11- to 15-year-olds in the United States began in 2006. That decline in the population of the profession's target patient base is not expected to correct itself until after 2010. The correction is not expected to be sudden, and the overall population estimates in the United States (as published by the Population Reference Bureau in the 2009 World Population Data Sheet) show net population growth of less than 1%—not enough to make up for the 400% growth in supply.
Tomorrow's earnings of today's orthodontists could be at least protected by a significant rationalization of orthodontic specialty programs in the United States. Perhaps 50% or more of the available resident openings could be eliminated or offered only to those doctors willing to practice outside of the United States and Canada, where population gains are expected to be significant in the coming years.
It is true that there remains a significant percentage of the population that needs orthodontic care and yet remains untreated. One might argue that a significant drop in case fees will have the effect of increasing demand. However, that demand would come at the cost of today's healthy profit margins and would require orthodontists to become much more efficient. History would argue that orthodontists are not prepared to make the business decisions required to produce services profitably at this new lower price point. Orthodontics would experience consolidation (resulting in more corporate-owned, multiple-location providers) and increased pressure and control from insurance providers. Neither of these are desirable outcomes for today's doctors.
To read more opinions on orthodontic matters, search for "Word of Mouth" at the top of the page.
Today, orthodontic specialty programs report that it is more and more difficult to recruit faculty. Fewer orthodontists can retire in today's financial turmoil, and few can afford to take the pay cut to accept a full-time teaching position. Program administrators having difficulty recruiting faculty should interpret their challenge as a sign that their program is ripe for rationalization. Those educators would do the profession more good gone than struggling to survive. Rather than get creative and offer more part-time positions, these programs should consolidate and share the available teachers among fewer schools.
It's time for educators to seriously consider the impact they are having on the profession. Educators need to closely monitor the supply of orthodontists versus the demand for treatment. They should also consider how they can help provide meaningful differentiation between GPs offering orthodontics and orthodontic specialists.

 

[HuyetKiem]

Wow, that's interesting, HuyetKiem.

Is it the same with teeth whitening services? I remember BriteSmile was all the rage, and now it's more Zoom. Do you have a similar selling process in offering cheaper alternatives?

Of course... It's FREE ! 😀😀😀 I haven't charged any patient for teeth whitening services ever ( custom trays + Ultradent's take home kit). But all treatments must be completed within a defined period of time. 😀😀

 

[Stroszeck]

This isn't something new in dentistry. Endodontics for example has been headed in this direction for quite some time with only recent resident grads feeling the "squeeze"....multispecialty practice models are taking over dentistry and with GPs doing sooo much more than they used to some specialties known for $$$ and lifestyle have taken a huge hit.

 

[blissonearth]

I am just wondering about connection.. are most of these specialty programs accepted more of students who have connections in that school (eg. know the professors, have family/families who are orthodontists, etc). What does the likeliness of someone got in the program with regular GPA, no connections whatsoever and got accepted ?

From the specialty program I applied last year, I found out 4 out of 5 who got accepted know someone in the program.

 

[Lucidius]

Do you guys think GP is going to become saturated?

 

[ortho lurker]

I am just wondering about connection.. are most of these specialty programs accepted more of students who have connections in that school (eg. know the professors, have family/families who are orthodontists, etc). What does the likeliness of someone got in the program with regular GPA, no connections whatsoever and got accepted ?

From the specialty program I applied last year, I found out 4 out of 5 who got accepted know someone in the program.

There are probably 2 traits that will make an applicant stand out more: 1.) financial resources and 2.) the ability to kiss butt like there's no tomorrow. Programs accept legacy kids not because the parents went to that school, but because the parents donated big time. As far as butt kissing, that is a skill that you will keep throughout your career. You will need to beg & plead to GPs for referrals and you will need to coddle patient's parents so that they will send their younger siblings and provide word of mouth referrals to you.