orthodox jews at cornell and columbia

[mdavid]

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Is anyone or does anyone know any orthodox jews at cornell or columbia? Do they work it out that you can be off for sabbath in MS 3 and 4?

 

[tigress]

It's not easy at ANY school to always take Saturday off. My brother in law has managed to do it at Syracuse, but it's been really difficult. He had to risk his grades in certain rotations to do it, and come in on Saturday nights a few times. My uncle says that at Einstein nobody could get out of Saturday rotations, no matter what. I'm not sure if that's changed since he was there, since my friends at AECOM are in their first two years still. I can ask my husband's friend about that. Of course, there are plenty of Jews at Columbia and Cornell, so I'm sure they've had experience with at least trying to deal with the issue. But you also have to consider the availability of sabbath-observant residencies, which are hard to come by. I really strongly believe that you can't go into medicine expecting to always be able to get Saturdays off; if you're lucky it might work out, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Good luck with applying. You can PM me if you want to talk about the process or anything. I also know a lot about sabbath-observer residencies if you want to know more about that. A guy I know is trying to set them up with the match system, which will hopefully be done by the time we graduate.

 

[redclover]

Isn't it true that the sabbath can be violated to save someone's life? so wouldn't medicine be an exception?

It's not easy at ANY school to always take Saturday off. My brother in law has managed to do it at Syracuse, but it's been really difficult. He had to risk his grades in certain rotations to do it, and come in on Saturday nights a few times. My uncle says that at Einstein nobody could get out of Saturday rotations, no matter what. I'm not sure if that's changed since he was there, since my friends at AECOM are in their first two years still. I can ask my husband's friend about that. Of course, there are plenty of Jews at Columbia and Cornell, so I'm sure they've had experience with at least trying to deal with the issue. But you also have to consider the availability of sabbath-observant residencies, which are hard to come by. I really strongly believe that you can't go into medicine expecting to always be able to get Saturdays off; if you're lucky it might work out, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Good luck with applying. You can PM me if you want to talk about the process or anything. I also know a lot about sabbath-observer residencies if you want to know more about that. A guy I know is trying to set them up with the match system, which will hopefully be done by the time we graduate.

 

[radioh3ad]

never mind

 

[tigress]

Isn't it true that the sabbath can be violated to save someone's life? so wouldn't medicine be an exception?

Yes and sort of. The problem with working as a doctor on the sabbath is that there is a lot of writing, using electricity, and other stuff that isn't really vital to saving a life. In some hospitals in Israel they actually have really ingenious ways of dealing with these things. But American doctors struggle with it. Personally I don't think I'll apply for sabbath observer residenices, and I'll just deal with it as well as I can. But I'm unusual.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Yes and sort of. The problem with working as a doctor on the sabbath is that there is a lot of writing, using electricity, and other stuff that isn't really vital to saving a life. In some hospitals in Israel they actually have really ingenious ways of dealing with these things. But American doctors struggle with it. Personally I don't think I'll apply for sabbath observer residenices, and I'll just deal with it as well as I can. But I'm unusual.

Not to intrude on a Jewish thread, but I was wondering about provisions for Sunday morning worship for Christians? Can you get Sunday mornings off for sure?

Really, I think this is an issue that many religions face, Jews, Christians, and Muslims, with assumably Jews being the most "constrained" by the Sabbath.

 

[DrBowtie]

What about muslim surgeons? During a long procedure do they scrub out for prayer? Just wondering.

 

[redclover]

Yes and sort of. The problem with working as a doctor on the sabbath is that there is a lot of writing, using electricity, and other stuff that isn't really vital to saving a life. In some hospitals in Israel they actually have really ingenious ways of dealing with these things. But American doctors struggle with it. Personally I don't think I'll apply for sabbath observer residenices, and I'll just deal with it as well as I can. But I'm unusual.

i see. luckily i dont observe it this way...i just have to avoid driving if possible. hopefully i can get a place really close to my med school so i can walk, or just stay there till sabbath's over.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

What about muslim surgeons? During a long procedure do they scrub out for prayer? Just wondering.

Brett, religion may seem funny to you, but there are good reasons for a day of rest, a day to reflect and worship God, to spend time in His Word. Otherwise, your life can become a meaningless monotony.

As to your reductio ad absurdum, Christianity (and Judaism, it seems) provides for exceptions, such as saving a life, but as you know, a lot of medicine is not about just saving lives.

 

[tigress]

Not to intrude on a Jewish thread, but I was wondering about provisions for Sunday morning worship for Christians? Can you get Sunday mornings off for sure?

Really, I think this is an issue that many religions face, Jews, Christians, and Muslims, with assumably Jews being the most "constrained" by the Sabbath.

I think some Christians have complained in the past about sabbath-observer residencies because they don't get special consideration for church on Sundays. As you recognize, it's slightly different. I do feel bad for Christians, or anybody who can't fully participate in their religion because they have to be in the hospital. But (and this is also in response to BrettBachelor's post) Jewish doctors also miss prayer, regularly, since Jewish men are required to pray three times a day. And I've never heard of a Jewish doctor insisting he get time off to accommodate that. On the Jewish sabbath, however, we are unable to drive or ride in a car, turn on or off electrical appliances, write, use money, and many other things. Because of its restrictive nature, it's next to impossible to keep these rules and actually work in the hospital. So to many people, having to work on Saturday is actually in violation of their religious beliefs. While this may be true for some Christians who set aside Sunday as a day of rest, the rules aren't nearly as codified, and Christians don't have restrictions regarding all of the things I listed. So while it's not ideal to have to work on Sunday, it's also not in direct violation of their religion.

The other thing to consider is that while a minority may abuse the system, most observant Jewish doctors are willing to take extra night call, Sunday call, Saturday night call, etc., in exchange for not having to work Friday night or Saturday. Most people try as hard as possible to take up whatever slack they can. It still may not seem fair to other doctors who get stuck working the Friday nights and Saturdays, but lots of doctors also don't think it's fair when a colleague takes maternity leave and they have to take up the slack.

As I said before, my personal plan is to try to trade shifts with people to avoid working on the sabbath as much as possible, but I will certainly work if necessary. And I expect I will have to work on Friday night and/or Saturday during the course of my education and career. I'll simply try to do this as rarely as possible, and when there I will try to minimize the conflicts between my sabbath and my work.

I don't think it's really fair to everybody else, but I also don't see a better solution. It doesn't make sense to say that Orthodox Jews can't be doctors, any more than it makes sense to say that women who expect to have babies can't be doctors (of course, some may truly believe this...). And I don't want to impose on anybody, but I also want to follow my religion. I think this is going to be a difficult challenge for me and also for my husband, not only in trying to arrange our schedules as well as we can but also in feeling as if we are imposing on our colleagues when we also feel as if we have no choice.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I think some Christians have complained in the past about sabbath-observer residencies because they don't get special consideration for church on Sundays. As you recognize, it's slightly different. I do feel bad for Christians, or anybody who can't fully participate in their religion because they have to be in the hospital. But (and this is also in response to BrettBachelor's post) Jewish doctors also miss prayer, regularly, since Jewish men are required to pray three times a day. And I've never heard of a Jewish doctor insisting he get time off to accommodate that. On the Jewish sabbath, however, we are unable to drive or ride in a car, turn on or off electrical appliances, write, use money, and many other things. Because of its restrictive nature, it's next to impossible to keep these rules and actually work in the hospital. So to many people, having to work on Saturday is actually in violation of their religious beliefs. While this may be true for some Christians who set aside Sunday as a day of rest, the rules aren't nearly as codified, and Christians don't have restrictions regarding all of the things I listed. So while it's not ideal to have to work on Sunday, it's also not in direct violation of their religion.

The other thing to consider is that while a minority may abuse the system, most observant Jewish doctors are willing to take extra night call, Sunday call, Saturday night call, etc., in exchange for not having to work Friday night or Saturday. Most people try as hard as possible to take up whatever slack they can. It still may not seem fair to other doctors who get stuck working the Friday nights and Saturdays, but lots of doctors also don't think it's fair when a colleague takes maternity leave and they have to take up the slack.

As I said before, my personal plan is to try to trade shifts with people to avoid working on the sabbath as much as possible, but I will certainly work if necessary. And I expect I will have to work on Friday night and/or Saturday during the course of my education and career. I'll simply try to do this as rarely as possible, and when there I will try to minimize the conflicts between my sabbath and my work.

I don't think it's really fair to everybody else, but I also don't see a better solution. It doesn't make sense to say that Orthodox Jews can't be doctors, any more than it makes sense to say that women who expect to have babies can't be doctors (of course, some may truly believe this...). And I don't want to impose on anybody, but I also want to follow my religion. I think this is going to be a difficult challenge for me and also for my husband, not only in trying to arrange our schedules as well as we can but also in feeling as if we are imposing on our colleagues when we also feel as if we have no choice.

While I do agree with you that Sunday is not as codified as the Sabbath is for Jews, it still is meaningful to Christians. It is a time to learn from the Word, to worship God with songs and prayers, etc. And since it is just the morning, I don't really see why it can't be accomodated. Personally, I think it is largely an issue of Christians not being aggressive enough about this; since they don't respect their holy day enough, why should some atheist. In any case, I intend to make an indisputable point of it. I think it is just ridiculous to demand that a person be at your beck and call 24/7 without one single untouchable time-block of just 3-4 hours in a week.

Btw, are you just talking about extremely time-demanding specialties like surgery, or is this the case with many specialties? What about internal medicine?

 

[DrBowtie]

Brett, religion may seem funny to you, but there are good reasons for a day of rest, a day to reflect and worship God, to spend time in His Word. Otherwise, your life can become a meaningless monotony.

As to your reductio ad absurdum, Christianity (and Judaism, it seems) provides for exceptions, such as saving a life, but as you know, a lot of medicine is not about just saving lives.

I was being serious. I am not a muslim so I didn't know the answer. Can anyone answer my question? I do know that muslims have a strict prayer schedule.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I think some Christians have complained in the past about sabbath-observer residencies because they don't get special consideration for church on Sundays. As you recognize, it's slightly different. I do feel bad for Christians, or anybody who can't fully participate in their religion because they have to be in the hospital. But (and this is also in response to BrettBachelor's post) Jewish doctors also miss prayer, regularly, since Jewish men are required to pray three times a day. And I've never heard of a Jewish doctor insisting he get time off to accommodate that. On the Jewish sabbath, however, we are unable to drive or ride in a car, turn on or off electrical appliances, write, use money, and many other things. Because of its restrictive nature, it's next to impossible to keep these rules and actually work in the hospital. So to many people, having to work on Saturday is actually in violation of their religious beliefs. While this may be true for some Christians who set aside Sunday as a day of rest, the rules aren't nearly as codified, and Christians don't have restrictions regarding all of the things I listed. So while it's not ideal to have to work on Sunday, it's also not in direct violation of their religion.

The other thing to consider is that while a minority may abuse the system, most observant Jewish doctors are willing to take extra night call, Sunday call, Saturday night call, etc., in exchange for not having to work Friday night or Saturday. Most people try as hard as possible to take up whatever slack they can. It still may not seem fair to other doctors who get stuck working the Friday nights and Saturdays, but lots of doctors also don't think it's fair when a colleague takes maternity leave and they have to take up the slack.

As I said before, my personal plan is to try to trade shifts with people to avoid working on the sabbath as much as possible, but I will certainly work if necessary. And I expect I will have to work on Friday night and/or Saturday during the course of my education and career. I'll simply try to do this as rarely as possible, and when there I will try to minimize the conflicts between my sabbath and my work.

I don't think it's really fair to everybody else, but I also don't see a better solution. It doesn't make sense to say that Orthodox Jews can't be doctors, any more than it makes sense to say that women who expect to have babies can't be doctors (of course, some may truly believe this...). And I don't want to impose on anybody, but I also want to follow my religion. I think this is going to be a difficult challenge for me and also for my husband, not only in trying to arrange our schedules as well as we can but also in feeling as if we are imposing on our colleagues when we also feel as if we have no choice.

Well, if it's a sabbath observer residency, I think that is understandable, if unfair. It sounds like it would be Jewish. My sister had a similar experience in a largely-Jewish law school where Passover and other Jewish holidays were honored, but Good Friday or the Monday after Pascha (Easter) weren't. This did lead to some resentment on the part of Christians, I suppose because the minority religion didn't accomodate the majority religion, but conversely, I understand that the majority population doesn't accomodate minority religion holidays too well, either.

Do you know whether generic "secular" residencies, so-to-speak, will honor certain holiday issues? Because I don't want to end up working on Pascha.

 

[tigress]

I was being serious. I am not a muslim so I didn't know the answer. Can anyone answer my question? I do know that muslims have a strict prayer schedule.

Brett, I answered as well as I could in my above post (I know it was long 😛). I don't think anybody asks to get out of anything, much less surgery, simply to pray. This holds for Muslims, Jews, and Christians (and Hindus and Buddhists and people of any other religion). I've never heard of it happening, but perhaps it has. But at least in Judaism, surgery would definitely override the commandment to pray three times a day. As a matter of fact, if it's a matter of life and death, a Jew is actually not ALLOWED to do anything that would risk somebody's life like that. I'm not sure if Islam has a similar concept.

 

[tigress]

Well, if it's a sabbath observer residency, I think that is understandable, if unfair. It sounds like it would be Jewish. My sister had a similar experience in a largely-Jewish law school where Passover and other Jewish holidays were honored, but Good Friday or the Monday after Pascha (Easter) weren't. This did lead to some resentment on the part of Christians, I suppose because the minority religion didn't accomodate the majority religion, but conversely, I understand that the majority population doesn't accomodate minority religion holidays too well, either.

Do you know whether generic "secular" residencies, so-to-speak, will honor certain holiday issues? Because I don't want to end up working on Pascha.

I think most people are able to work out their holiday schedules, at least for important holidays. Although I have heard stories of people having to work Thanksgiving when they didn't want to, I've not heard the same for Christmas. I think there are generally other doctors willing to take over on Christmas and Easter, as long as the Christian doctors take over on Rosh Hashanah, for example. I know that my relatives who are doctors always work on the Christian holidays to give their colleagues the time off. I expect I will do the same.

btw, it's called Pesach, and it's not the same thing as Easter.

edit: regarding schools, I think this is a different issue. Because you decide which school to go to. If you go to AECOM, you won't have class on Jewish holidays. That said, you won't have class on Christmas, either. But the schedule is more geared to Jewish holidays than to Christian or other holidays, simply by the nature of the school. I don't think it affects people much, since holidays like Christmas and Easter are off as well. They won't have off on Good Friday or the Monday after Easter, but from what I've heard they are quite accommodating to students who need to take their own holidays off. It's just not part of the institutional holiday schedule. But with your sister, I think that just comes with choosing a school. If it bothers you, don't go there. Residencies are somewhat different, because you might not have as much choice, and almost all probably run on the standard national holiday system.

 

[DrBowtie]

Thank you Tigress

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I think most people are able to work out their holiday schedules, at least for important holidays. Although I have heard stories of people having to work Thanksgiving when they didn't want to, I've not heard the same for Christmas. I think there are generally other doctors willing to take over on Christmas and Easter, as long as the Christian doctors take over on Rosh Hashanah, for example. I know that my relatives who are doctors always work on the Christian holidays to give their colleagues the time off. I expect I will do the same.

btw, it's called Pesach, and it's not the same thing as Easter.

I know that. Easter is called Pascha in many cultures. I prefer to call it that. The name "Easter" comes from the name of a Germanic fertility goddess, as far as I know. Also, note Ishtar in Babylonian mythology, as well as Astarte and Ashtaroth. Hence those ridiculous easter eggs and bunnies. In some other Christian cultures, the actual reference is to a "raising up", hence "anesti" in Greek.

 

[omaralt]

I was being serious. I am not a muslim so I didn't know the answer. Can anyone answer my question? I do know that muslims have a strict prayer schedule.

hey,

ya, as muslims, we have to pray 5 times a day at specified times. however, under some circumstances (ie traveling, and others) we may join the prayers and pray them together. for example, if you were in surgery when the afternoon prayer time came in, you could pray it with the night prayer when you got out of surgery. keep in mind we have a minimum of 1.5 hrs to do a prayer when it comes in. usually we have even more than that, so its normally not an issue. whats an issue sometimes is the mandatory friday prayer. this is required and normally takes place from 130-230 on friday afternoons. i'm already seeing a problem arising with my dental school scheduled. but we have to deal with it as all other religions have to.

omar

omar

 

[DrBowtie]

Thanks for clearing it up for me Omar

 

[ibby]

I am Muslim, so I can tell you from experience. Muslims must pray five times a day unless, for some reason they cannot. Surgery would count as this reason. In that case, s/he has 24 hours to make up the prayer, so after the surgery, s/he would make up the prayers missed.

 

[Droopy]

My uncle says that at Einstein nobody could get out of Saturday rotations, no matter what. I'm not sure if that's changed since he was there, since my friends at AECOM are in their first two years still. I can ask my husband's friend about that.

You can observe the Sabbath at Einstein, especially as a student. Most people either come in Saturday evening or Sunday if they were scheduled to be on call. It really doesn't affect other students in the rotation and there is generally no rift because of the observance. At LIJ, there is even a Shomer Shabbat team for medicine.

 

[tigress]

You can observe the Sabbath at Einstein, especially as a student. Most people either come in Saturday evening or Sunday if they were scheduled to be on call. It really doesn't affect other students in the rotation and there is generally no rift because of the observance. At LIJ, there is even a Shomer Shabbat team for medicine.

good to know 👍

Also, I think schools vary widely with respect to students' requirements on the weekends. It might pay to look into that (in addition to specifically observing shabbos) when considering a school (directed at the OP).

 

[caroladybelle]

I have known plenty of Jewish interns at Cornell, but never saw that much difference in scheduling. But few of them were Orthodox.

I always remember the Orthodox oncologist making rounds at 0200 AM or so on Sunday morning.

 

[tigress]

I have known plenty of Jewish interns at Cornell, but never saw that much difference in scheduling. But few of them were Orthodox.

I always remember the Orthodox oncologist making rounds at 0200 AM or so on Sunday morning.

hey I'm a southern belle also 🙂

 

[dragonmate]

It's not easy at ANY school to always take Saturday off. My brother in law has managed to do it at Syracuse, but it's been really difficult. He had to risk his grades in certain rotations to do it, and come in on Saturday nights a few times. My uncle says that at Einstein nobody could get out of Saturday rotations, no matter what. I'm not sure if that's changed since he was there, since my friends at AECOM are in their first two years still. I can ask my husband's friend about that. Of course, there are plenty of Jews at Columbia and Cornell, so I'm sure they've had experience with at least trying to deal with the issue. But you also have to consider the availability of sabbath-observant residencies, which are hard to come by. I really strongly believe that you can't go into medicine expecting to always be able to get Saturdays off; if you're lucky it might work out, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Good luck with applying. You can PM me if you want to talk about the process or anything. I also know a lot about sabbath-observer residencies if you want to know more about that. A guy I know is trying to set them up with the match system, which will hopefully be done by the time we graduate.

Wow!! I find that very difficult to believe that AECOM doesn't let people get out of Shabbos rotations, considering the nature of the school. I'm applying there because I was hoping that they, of all med schools, would be understanding of the meaning of Shabbos to an observant Jew. I'll have to check that out. Thanks tigress. 👍

 

[DrBowtie]

Wow!! I find that very difficult to believe that AECOM doesn't let people get out of Shabbos rotations, considering the nature of the school. I'm applying there because I was hoping that they, of all med schools, would be understanding of the meaning of Shabbos to an observant Jew. I'll have to check that out. Thanks tigress. 👍

Hmm what's it like being Jewish in Utah?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Hmm what's it like being Jewish in Utah?

Sounds like you're pretty interested in religion, Brett.

 

[DrBowtie]

Well, considering how I am not the 2% minority religion in my community, I don't know what it would be like. You are making assumptions on my tone based upon flat text.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Well, considering how I am not the 2% minority religion in my community, I don't know what it would be like. You are making assumptions on my tone based upon flat text.

I didn't mean it in a negative way. I just noted that you asked about Jews in Utah and Muslim surgeons, although you are presumably neither, so it seems you are interested in religion in general. That's a positive to my thinking.

 

[atrovariousg]

Is anyone or does anyone know any orthodox jews at cornell or columbia? Do they work it out that you can be off for sabbath in MS 3 and 4?

it's time to get with the program heathen

 

[DrBowtie]

Yes, religion is an interest of mine. I really wish I had time to take a comparative religions class. I did go to a religious high school but was pretty dissatisfied with the failure to define the other religions especially in historical context.

 

[Flopotomist]

I would happily work the sabbath for a classmate if s/he was willing to pick up a few of my undesireable shifts in exchange. As long as it is done fairly.

 

[tigress]

Wow!! I find that very difficult to believe that AECOM doesn't let people get out of Shabbos rotations, considering the nature of the school. I'm applying there because I was hoping that they, of all med schools, would be understanding of the meaning of Shabbos to an observant Jew. I'll have to check that out. Thanks tigress. 👍

Droopy, up above, says that it's no problem at Einstein. My uncle was there a while ago, so I'm not surprised that it's changed. There are so many observant Jews there, anyway, that they have lots of experience dealing with it. My brother-in-law at Syracuse, on the other hand, is basically forging his own path; luckily my husband has two observant Jews in the class ahead of him, so it may be a bit easier for him. At schools without many observant Jews, people just won't have the experience dealing with the issue. That doesn't mean you can't work it out. The more stories I hear, the more I think it's possible. I just feel like we shouldn't count on it. My first response was mostly in reaction to a girl I know who decided to go into medicine even though she is strongly opposed to EVER having to work on shabbos, and has this complete attitude of entitlement about it. I just don't think you can go in with that attitude, particularly not the entitlement; nobody is required to take our shabbos shifts for us, but it sure would be nice if they did. If you go around acting like they have to, you're just going to have everybody pissed off at you. And that gives us all a bad name.

OP: sorry if my first post seemed a bit harsh. I'm just fed up with the above-mentioned aquaintance of mine regarding the same issue.

 

[mdavid]

Thanks for all the info, but back to the question that this began with. Does anyone know any orthodox jews at cornell or columbia? I would like to talk to a student there. So does anyone go there or have a friend that they can put me in contact with. Thanks again.

 

[tigress]

Thanks for all the info, but back to the question that this began with. Does anyone know any orthodox jews at cornell or columbia? I would like to talk to a student there. So does anyone go there or have a friend that they can put me in contact with. Thanks again.

I'll ask my friends if they know anybody who you could contact.

 

[mdavid]

I'll ask my friends if they know anybody who you could contact.

Thanks for your help

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Brett, religion may seem funny to you, but there are good reasons for a day of rest, a day to reflect and worship God, to spend time in His Word. Otherwise, your life can become a meaningless monotony.

As to your reductio ad absurdum, Christianity (and Judaism, it seems) provides for exceptions, such as saving a life, but as you know, a lot of medicine is not about just saving lives.

although he may have said it as a joke, the point was valid...if muslims have to pray at certain times a day, what happens when it is in the middle of a critical procedure?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

I think as long as you voice and document your religious observances up front, most hospitals (and therefore schools) respect your observance of them and will cooperate in scheduling.

 

[tigress]

mdavid,

My husband says we have a new neighbor who went to Cornell, so maybe I can ask him sometime. Otherwise neither of us knows anybody. If you want to know about any other schools I might have more info (e.g. SUNY Syracuse, Harvard, Penn).

good luck 🙂

 

[CerealBox]

I am Muslim, so I can tell you from experience. Muslims must pray five times a day unless, for some reason they cannot. Surgery would count as this reason. In that case, s/he has 24 hours to make up the prayer, so after the surgery, s/he would make up the prayers missed.

its nice when flexibility is built into religion... That doesn't seem to happen often.

One time someone who worked in a hotel told me they had a Jewish family stay and everytime they wanted to turn the tv on or off they would call room service to come do it. I always thought it was kind of funny that they could use the phone, but not the remote control. pretty interesting.

 

[tigress]

its nice when flexibility is built into religion... That doesn't seem to happen often.

One time someone who worked in a hotel told me they had a Jewish family stay and everytime they wanted to turn the tv on or off they would call room service to come do it. I always thought it was kind of funny that they could use the phone, but not the remote control. pretty interesting.

Well that's not any Jewish practice I've ever heard of. Observant Jews don't turn on electricity on the sabbath, and also don't use the phone, or money, or lots of other stuff. And we're not allowed to ask non-Jews to do these things for us. If something really HAS to be done, like if an oven gets left on and it's dangerous, we'll tell a non-Jew that the oven is on and it's dangerous. It sounds silly, but the way to get around not being allowed to ask is to not directly ask, just hint at it, i.e. instead of saying "Would you mind turning off our oven?" we have to say "The oven was accidently left on, and it's dangerous." Then we assume the person will figure out that they should turn it off. I guess that sounds strange, but it's sometimes necessary. I've only been in the situation once, at a friend's house, and it was fairly awkward.

Technically you could watch a TV if you had it on a timer or if somebody turned it on, but there is the concept of keeping the day holy and set aside for the sabbath. So it would not be accepted practice to do that, even if it would technically, according to the letter of the law, be okay.

I think most religions have flexibility built in. As former posters said, Islam has flexibility if one has to miss prayer. Judaism has the same concept with prayer; if you miss one, you can make it up at the next time for prayer by doing a double prayer. And, as previously mentioned, we are not only allowed to but are actually required to break the sabbath in order to save a life. I'm sure Christianity has flexibility, although it may not be as important because the religion is intrinsically less law-based. I don't know too much about specific practices in other religions, but I would assume they are likewise flexible. If a religion is impossible to follow because it's so inflexible, not too many people would really stick with it.

 

[pagemmapants]

What about muslim surgeons? During a long procedure do they scrub out for prayer? Just wondering.

Regardless of the intention in which Brett initially posted this, it's a really interesting question. Anyone here know the answer??

 

[DrBowtie]

Regardless of the intention in which Brett initially posted this, it's a really interesting question. Anyone here know the answer??

It was actually answered. Look back to a few posts under mine. I guess with no inflection my posts come off cold. I was truly interested.

 

[pagemmapants]

It was actually answered. Look back to a few posts under mine. I guess with no inflection my posts come off cold. I was truly interested.

Ahhh, got it. Thanks! I guess being the dirty heathen agnostic that I am, this type of thing never crossed my mind.

 

[caroladybelle]

One time someone who worked in a hotel told me they had a Jewish family stay and everytime they wanted to turn the tv on or off they would call room service to come do it. I always thought it was kind of funny that they could use the phone, but not the remote control. pretty interesting.

Tigress made not have heard of it, but as a nurse, I have dealt with it. The Orthodox/Hasidim at Cornell will not use the call button, bed positioning buttons or the elevator buttons on the Sabbath. They usually have a family member/companion stay at the bedside to come get the nurse to reposition the bed (Head or foot - up or down) and the family member/companion also come to get us for any requests. And of course they have a Sabbath elevator that stops on every floor on the Sabbath (at least in the Greenberg pavilion).

It always amazed me that they used cell phones (though I did not check to see how they worked them...if there were buttons or not) but couldn't hit the call light. I also felt a lot of sympathy, when the family member that stayed during High Holy days had to accompany the patient to a procedure. The unit was on the tenth floor and the procedure was on the first. Because of the Holiday, the family member would not even take the Sabbath elevator but instead took the stairs.

On Passover, they set up a sedar in the family room. I got the unenviable task of defrosting the frozen kosher juice (in a closed plastic container) in the microwave without opening it and rendering it nonkosher. It was always fun trying to microwave the kosher soup in a closed container without popping the lid.

 

[tigress]

Tigress made not have heard of it, but as a nurse, I have dealt with it. The Orthodox/Hasidim at Cornell will not use the call button, bed positioning buttons or the elevator buttons on the Sabbath. They usually have a family member/companion stay at the bedside to come get the nurse to reposition the bed (Head or foot - up or down) and the family member/companion also come to get us for any requests. And of course they have a Sabbath elevator that stops on every floor on the Sabbath (at least in the Greenberg pavilion).

It always amazed me that they used cell phones (though I did not check to see how they worked them...if there were buttons or not) but couldn't hit the call light. I also felt a lot of sympathy, when the family member that stayed during High Holy days had to accompany the patient to a procedure. The unit was on the tenth floor and the procedure was on the first. Because of the Holiday, the family member would not even take the Sabbath elevator but instead took the stairs.

On Passover, they set up a sedar in the family room. I got the unenviable task of defrosting the frozen kosher juice (in a closed plastic container) in the microwave without opening it and rendering it nonkosher. It was always fun trying to microwave the kosher soup in a closed container without popping the lid.

No, what you are saying is totally in keeping with what I was saying. Except the cell phones, which I assure you are not allowed. I have spent years in an Orthodox community and plenty of time in Hassidic communities, and I can assure you that no group would accept cell phone use on the sabbath. If you did see people using them, that was an aberration. The only time we are allowed to use phones is when a life is at risk or potentially at risk.

And yes, many Jews will use a sabbath elevator that stops at every floor, so they don't have to push any buttons. I do not use it, and I know many others who do not either. There is no one accepted position on many things in Judaism, including this. I would take the stairs on any sabbath or holiday, while some of my friends might take the sabbath elevator.

As far as asking people to come reposition the bed, they could get around that by, as I explained above, indicating that they were uncomfortable or their head was too low/too high, without directly asking the nurse to change it. It sounds strange, and perhaps you think it's silly, but that's just the way it is. For a sick person in a hospital, getting the bed repositioned seems reasonable enough.

As far as the juice and the soup, are you really so bitter as to complain about that? I mean, okay it was a nuisance. But a small thing to take care of a huge issue, which is how to obtain kosher food in a hospital. Nobody who is not Jewish can understand the complexity of the laws we deal with in our daily lives. The issue with opening containers makes a lot of sense, actually: if the container is open, there is no way to prove that the contents are still kosher, that something else didn't get in. And they can't take your word for it, not because they don't trust you but because you don't know all of the multitudes of complex laws involved, so you wouldn't even necessarily know if the contents were still kosher.

It may be something you can't understand, but your post just seems completely bitter and resentful. Perhaps the people you delt with had horrible attitudes (I know many right-wing religious Jews do), but that doesn't mean that all observant Jews are like that. It's no reason to bash our practices, just because you were unhappy with your experience. I mean, I've had bad experiences with Christians telling me I'm going to hell and trying to save me, but I don't think that means that all Christians are like that. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists just because some have been.

Things that you don't understand, or that you think are silly or stupid, may be extremely important to others. And bad attitudes of some members of a group should reflect on those members, not on the group as a whole. In a way it can point to certain somewhat pervasive attitudes, such as a self-righteous attitude that I myself have experienced within the more right-wing Orthodox groups, but by no means does that mean that all members of the group are like this, or that the group should be judged based on this.

 

[Ron Mexico]

its nice when flexibility is built into religion... That doesn't seem to happen often.

hinduism is very flexible cause we dont have any sort of rules regarding prayer. you can pray anytime and anywhere you feel like for however long you want. there is no scheduled devotion. ho9wever, there is nothing wrong with the islamic-judaic-christian way of praying either, where its more spelled out for you. i'm just citing the differences.

 

[CerealBox]

On Passover, they set up a sedar in the family room. I got the unenviable task of defrosting the frozen kosher juice (in a closed plastic container) in the microwave without opening it and rendering it nonkosher. It was always fun trying to microwave the kosher soup in a closed container without popping the lid.

Belle doesn't sound bitter to me... It actually sounds slightly amusing.
Also, if a nurse were a little bitter about this extra work in their day, I don't think they would be at fault. Nurses are some of the most overworked hospital staff, and often underappreciated. During an exhausting 12 hour work day, it might at some point get to you if you have to run into a room and help use electric appliances every so often... I don't think its disrespectful towards Judiasm to feel this way.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Belle doesn't sound bitter to me... It actually sounds slightly amusing.
Also, if a nurse were a little bitter about this extra work in their day, I don't think they would be at fault. Nurses are some of the most overworked hospital staff, and often underappreciated. During an exhausting 12 hour work day, it might at some point get to you if you have to run into a room and help use electric appliances every so often... I don't think its disrespectful towards Judiasm to feel this way.

I didn't think her post sounded bitter or disrespectful either. Anyway, it IS hard to microwave a closed container without popping the lid or melting the whole thing....

 

[ShyRem]

This thread brings a TON of questions/scenarios to mind, but I don't think they would be taken as pure curiousity here (never saw such touchy people). Unfortunately, I don't think there are any orthodox jews here in my town to ask. *sigh*