Orthopaedic Surgery vs. Radiology

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tennisguy896

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Could you guys please give me any thoughts on ortho vs. rad? I think the residency lengths are about the same. Do most orthos do fellowships? What about the hours? Why did you guys choose one over the other? I really appreciate the help.
 
Could you guys please give me any thoughts on ortho vs. rad? I think the residency lengths are about the same. Do most orthos do fellowships? What about the hours? Why did you guys choose one over the other? I really appreciate the help.


They have about as different job functions as you could find in medicine, so the question really is what is it you like to do? Do you want to be a carpenter or do you like playing with high tech toys and big magnets?
 
I know you have to take medical physics courses in rad residencies- is that tough grad school level physics?
 
I know you have to take medical physics courses in rad residencies- is that tough grad school level physics?
That's probably the least of your worries when deciding a residency. The only similarities between those two that I see are high income. As L2D said, choose based on what you like to do.
 
I know you have to take medical physics courses in rad residencies- is that tough grad school level physics?

projectiles, torque, fluid mechanics, electricity, magnetism etc. Wow that's gonna suck donkey balls😱
 
I had a 99% and a 97% in honors physics for undergrad, but I respect the difficulty of the physics that goes into designing the incredibly high-tech machines rads use. I highly doubt rads only have to know about projectile motion, torque, and other basics.

Dutchman, you haven't even started med school, so how do you know how hard medical physics is?
 
any med students who have decided to pursue one of these fields have any opinions?
 
I had a 99% and a 97% in honors physics for undergrad, but I respect the difficulty of the physics that goes into designing the incredibly high-tech machines rads use. I highly doubt rads only have to know about projectile motion, torque, and other basics.

Dutchman, you haven't even started med school, so how do you know how hard medical physics is?

I was just kidding dude. I do know a bit about physics since I have a masters in engineering. I just did'nt know why physics is even a part of your considerations when choosing fields. And if you really need some gurus on this topic maybe you should move your thread to the residency forums(specifically ortho and Rads). By the way you are not even in med-school and you are already worrying about getting into the most competitive residencies-- that I think is a sure recipe for future stress
 
Oops- sorry, it's kinda hard to tell when someone is joking online😳 . I was asking about physics because one of the unique things about rad is that their boards have a rad exam, a physics exam, and an oral exam in KY. If I don't get enough info with this post, then I'll try again in the specialty forums (I just thought there would be folks in this forum that could compare the two objectively). Thanks for the replies.
 
By the way you are not even in med-school and you are already worrying about getting into the most competitive residencies-- that I think is a sure recipe for future stress

A top 10 (according to us news) ortho department wants me to do research with them this summer, but I could also do rad research- so I just wanted to pick one field with at least some solid logic behind whether I see myself continuing in that field.
 
Oops- sorry, it's kinda hard to tell when someone is joking online😳 . I was asking about physics because one of the unique things about rad is that their boards have a rad exam, a physics exam, and an oral exam in KY. If I don't get enough info with this post, then I'll try again in the specialty forums (I just thought there would be folks in this forum that could compare the two objectively). Thanks for the replies.

I think we are all at a loss as to why you would "compare the two objectively". The biggest comparison you really make is "I like X more than I like Y", which is a totally subjective decision.
And you certainly don't pick the field that has the least physics -- no one who makes it through med school and gets grades/scores good enough to get into a competitive field is going to shy away from one more little test.
Radiology is probably more of a lifestyle field, very high tech, perhaps more cerebral. Ortho involves surgery, which some like and some don't, and is stereotypically popular with the ex jocks and mechanically inclined. Go with what suits you better.
 
Thanks for the help- I know this is just one of those things you have to figure out yourself.
 
Could you guys please give me any thoughts on ortho vs. rad? I think the residency lengths are about the same. Do most orthos do fellowships? What about the hours? Why did you guys choose one over the other? I really appreciate the help.

Where are you in school? Ortho vs rads is not a traditional decision point....
 
Where are you in school? Ortho vs rads is not a traditional decision point....

I will be starting med school in the fall. I am just looking for info before I commit to one of two research offers I have this coming summer (ortho or rad). I am not trying to decide on a career path right now, just trying to feel both out a little.
 
I will be starting med school in the fall. I am just looking for info before I commit to one of two research offers I have this coming summer (ortho or rad). I am not trying to decide on a career path right now, just trying to feel both out a little.

Did you talk to the people in both labs? Did you read any of their papers? Did you visit the labs where you would work? If so, any observations on which one would be a better fit based on what you found and your knowledge of yourself? You could find a radiology project that is wonderful or one that is unpleasant. It's impossible to generalize on something like this. You could work for the best and most enjoyable lab in the world and be totally miserable if, for example, everyone is expected to work 12 hour days seven days a week and you don't like that. If you want to do better than a coin flip (or worse, having someone online telling you what to do), you may want to check out both situations in a little bit of detail and make a decision based on the specific facts of each opportunity.
 
Also - what's the difference between a television and 30 lbs of tuna?
 
A top 10 (according to us news) ortho department wants me to do research with them this summer, but I could also do rad research- so I just wanted to pick one field with at least some solid logic behind whether I see myself continuing in that field.

at this point it doesnt matter as to which specialty you may be more inclined to go into. there are basically two considerations:

1. choose the option that has a higher prob of getting published with you as an author, w/o a published paper research is worthless (some more pedantic people may disagree with this statement)

2. if #1 is mol equal, do whichever sounds more interesting. you are not going to be denied a rads residency bc you did ortho research the summer before you entered med school and visa versa.


of course you could always skip the research altogether and go travel. research is important, but so is not burning out.
 
I will be starting med school in the fall. I am just looking for info before I commit to one of two research offers I have this coming summer (ortho or rad). I am not trying to decide on a career path right now, just trying to feel both out a little.

I guess radiology is more likely to look attractive no matter what field you eventually decide to go into. There's some ortho-haters out there.
 
Could you guys please give me any thoughts on ortho vs. rad? I think the residency lengths are about the same. Do most orthos do fellowships? What about the hours? Why did you guys choose one over the other? I really appreciate the help.

The residency lengths are not the same. Rads is shorter. Yes, most orthos do fellowships these days.
 
I guess radiology is more likely to look attractive no matter what field you eventually decide to go into. There's some ortho-haters out there.

Some rads-haters, too.
 
I will be starting med school in the fall. I am just looking for info before I commit to one of two research offers I have this coming summer (ortho or rad). I am not trying to decide on a career path right now, just trying to feel both out a little.

Any suggestion on where to look for research opportunities in Rads the summer before med school?
 
14-gunner%20mutt.jpg
 
ehhh...why you correlating two completely different fields???
 
That's probably the least of your worries when deciding a residency. The only similarities between those two that I see are high income. As L2D said, choose based on what you like to do.

Maybe the OP likes bones but can't figure out if he wants to study them from the inside or out.

Consider DO school--I'm told that they have a lot of PGY opportunities for these fields.
 
my sorry ass wouldn't get into either of those. but if i did go into them, it would be for the money. what other reason is there?
 
Hey, they do both deal with high tech tools
 
ortho- minimum bench press limit is 275 lbs

radiology- social skills discouraged. Get to the basement!
 
I'd do ortho if I was so-inclined.

A little tid-bit about ortho:

A lot of ortho wannabes dream of being the team surgeon for a pro sports team. The thing they don't tell you is that the surgeon actually pays the team to be their surgeon. I guess there is a lot of money to be made when you have "NY Knicks Team Surgeon" in your Yellow Pages add. ehh?
 
Also - what's the difference between a television and 30 lbs of tuna?

Um, the 30lbs of tuna, duh. Cause then I can save so much money on food so long as I find a big enough freezer to store it in (2lbs in this research lab, 3lbs in that one). I suppose the mercury might eventually alter my academic ability, but eh, for free food! Might be worth it . . .
 
Both that and the fact that most athletes retire young with chronic injury problems, so you have a lot of repeat business even when they are no longer Knicks.

AND when you get to be the team doctor, you have to deal with the team needing the guy/gal out there to play at all costs, even when you know darn well what treatment the player SHOULD be getting.
 
It seems like radiology is easier to outsource globally than orthopaedic surgery (although both could be affected) ..

MD: okay, so you need your knee scoped. I can schedule your flight as soon as next Tuesday.
PT: Flight??
MD: Well, yeah, my boys over in Mumbai can get you a great deal on this procedure. Let me call and check the rates. Of course, if something goes wrong, your family is 12,000 miles away.
 
MD: okay, so you need your knee scoped. I can schedule your flight as soon as next Tuesday.
PT: Flight??
MD: Well, yeah, my boys over in Mumbai can get you a great deal on this procedure. Let me call and check the rates. Of course, if something goes wrong, your family is 12,000 miles away.

Did you read the links I posted? If not, you might want to take a look at the hopkins one (end of the page). The "outsourced" surgical procedure can be performed as you say (medical tourism -- already fairly common for cosmetic surgery) or it is performed locally by a local robot controlled by an expert in a remote location ("telemedicine").

Remotely controlled surgery has already been done in a proof of concept. Will it become common? I'm not sure. If it will become common, when will it become common? I'm also not sure. However, we didn't have a WWW internet as we know it today until 1993 (actually it took a few more years after that ... ). That's only 13 years ago. That's not all that long compared to medical education. Change can happen very quickly.
 
That's understandable. I'm glad you haven't lost your sense of humor! 😉
 
It seems like radiology is easier to outsource globally than orthopaedic surgery (although both could be affected) ....

Actually for legality reasons it would be incredibly difficult to totally outsource radiology. There are already "nighthawk" systems in existence, but the films/scans still have to be re-read/proofed by someone licensed in the US. Otherwise when something gets missed, the hospital crucified in court when it is revealed that no one with a US license ever looked at the imaging. For the same reasons, you won't see international tele-surgery any time soon, even if the technology is viable.
On the other hand, if you flew to another country for surgery, it is often not even necessarilly going to be a matter you could bring in a US court. So this third option is the only viable form of competition you have to worry about.
 
Actually for legality reasons it would be incredibly difficult to totally outsource radiology. There are already "nighthawk" systems in existence, but the films/scans still have to be re-read/proofed by someone licensed in the US. Otherwise when something gets missed, the hospital crucified in court when it is revealed that no one with a US license ever looked at the imaging. For the same reasons, you won't see international tele-surgery any time soon, even if the technology is viable.
On the other hand, if you flew to another country for surgery, it is often not even necessarilly going to be a matter you could bring in a US court. So this third option is the only viable form of competition you have to worry about.

I can see where you are coming from. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for global competition. Although I have a special spot in my heart for Americans (my neighbors), I love people around the world and have a tremendous respect for them ... whether they are wealthy or not.

Most people could accept a statistical argument (uniformly distributed medical geniuses per capita) that, although we have many wonderful physicians, most of best doctors don't live in the U.S. because we only have a minority fraction of the world's population. Thus, we could find the best radiologists in the world and have them read our images, sometimes at lower cost due to cost of living differentials.

In my previous career, I occasionally worked with geniuses from other countries performing advanced professional work for literally a few dollars per hour (I hired some of them myself). If managed correctly, globalization improves quality and reduces cost. That's why technology costs less every year and delivers more (and, why, conversely, in part, medicine does not). When it comes to global outsourcing of radiology, sure, a local physician would need to check work done overseas, but the idea is that patients are going to want it if it means that they could get better care and politicians just might give it to them (I'm not holding my breath). Some of the new toll bridges you might be driving over may have been designed in the Philippines and checked by a local professional engineer. A similiar situation could occur in radiology and put competitive pressures on domestic physicians. I recently saw a dermatologist, and he suggest that I not go into radiology due to offshore outsourcing. If I'm sitting in an emergency room at midnight in Poduck County Hospital, I would rather have an excellent, well-rested radiologist in India read my images if the diagnostic quality and accuracy is higher than a sleep-deprived local provider and I can get care more quickly.

I'm not naive enough to think that options for improving care or cost savings will govern what happens in U.S. healthcare. I'm just pointing out some of the arguments that powerful people could make in order to bring about changes such as outsourcing of significant amounts of radiology and other medical care.
 
Your argument rests on there being medical training in other countries that is equivalent to US medical training.

Unless international licensing exams are implemented I don't think the US public is going to be convinved that the Radiologist reading the film in Uzbekistan is as qualified as the US physician.

And I don't see the AMA supporting international licensing exams anytime soon . . .
 
Your argument rests on there being medical training in other countries that is equivalent to US medical training.

Unless international licensing exams are implemented I don't think the US public is going to be convinved that the Radiologist reading the film in Uzbekistan is as qualified as the US physician.

And I don't see the AMA supporting international licensing exams anytime soon . . .

I'm honestly unsure about how the U.S. medical educational system compares, say to the Australian, Irish, German, Spanish, French, Japanese, South Korean, South African, Mexican, Egyptian, or Russian medical education systems. I'd like to see any reasonably objective studies on this.

Then again, quality without availability isn't quality that matters. It may come down to who has the capacity to treat all these sick people in the future ... the American medical educational system could run into trouble meeting the demand to educate sufficient doctors. Our educational system may be too small and other countries may provide necessary additional capacity to train physicians.

How our education actually measures out in an objective study (if it were possible to do an objective study) is not clear to me. It seems to me that it is possible to get a great education in other countries as well. Most students just seem to study on their own anyway instead of being spoon-fed information by medical school faculty and attendings.

Do we have the best medical educational system by far in the world? I'd be curious if studies have been done on that; this probably becomes subjective very quickly. What I do know is that given enough cash exceptional foreign doctors can come here to study or can be trained by physicians willing to travel. I'm not a radiologist, but my guess is that a gifted soul in India or the Philippines could get quite good at medical diagnosis given their right equipment, work situation, experience, and top educators jetted over there ( alot of ifs).

If global outsourcing of medicine takes off, I would fully expect foreign doctors to come to the U.S. en masse to go through short training programs or residencies and then return to their home countries (some would stay no doubt). This is already happening in engineering. Medicine is much more restricted than the technology field, but, given that the healthcare reimbursement system is straining, some wild ideas might actually see the light of day (who knows, Hilary Clinton might be our next President and she might push for healthcare changes with a Democratic Congress).

As far as the American public is concerned ... many people are totally dissatisfied with our healthcare system, starting with the cost, continuing to the amount of time they must wait for care, and consumating with the lack of quality and/or followup they receive(d). If you're in the top 50% of net worth in this country, maybe you're happy. If you're in the bottom 50% (the other 150 million people), maybe you're not. Also, many people in this country are from other countries and might have preferences for overseas physicians (Mexicans for Mexican doctors, Chinese for Chinese doctors, etc.). I personally am happy with the health care system because I think I get excellent care. If I didn't have health insurance like many millions of Americans, I would probably not be as satisfied.

As far as I can tell, it wouldn't take much for a large number of American seniors to look at new options. Have you heard that seniors are going to Canada or Mexico to pick up large quantities of medications to cut their cost? Maybe they will get other care, such as fixing a hernia there as well. Cost might be the first driving force for globalization of medicine and ultimately it might be quality as other countries are able to take advantage of superior legal liability systems that allow more innovative care and devices. Some of the newest medical devices are already tested overseas before they are brought to the U.S. with its oppressive legal system. A neurosurgeon might prefer to operate out of Monterrey (or another city outside of the U.S.) where her medical liability insurance is maybe $5000/year instead of $100000/year or whatever it is here and pocket the difference, have more control over her hours and live like a queen. For many physicians it's less about the money than the quality of life.

Personally, my dream for American health care would be for medical cost per visit to drop 50% every year, primary/preventative care to become commonplace, enrollment in health insurance coverage for the American public to be near 100%, and for quality metrics to show 100% improvement in heath care every year or two. This isn't possible without significant globalization or technology. Even if my dream doesn't come true, I'm still looking forward to serving in medicine in the U.S. I'm happy to help out either way.
 
I'm honestly unsure about how the U.S. medical educational system compares, say to the Australian, Irish, German, Spanish, French, Japanese, South Korean, South African, Mexican, Egyptian, or Russian medical education systems. I'd like to see any reasonably objective studies on this.

I think you would find most developed countries (Australia, UK, etc) have comparable medical education, but don't offer significant cost savings on procedures.

There are three basic factors in health care: Cost, Access, and Quality. Pick any two out of the three. The system can have low cost, high quality, and surgery waitlists that take years (no access). Or you can have high quality, that anyone can get (who has money), but it costs a lot of money (US system). Or low cost, easy access, and poor quality. Obviously there are in between compromises, but this is the central issue.

It's good that you are thinking about these issues, but I don't think there will be such drastic changes in US healthcare in the forseeable future (socialized medicine has a stronger chance than large scale exporting of medicine). But heck, as a lowly MSI, what do I know . . .
 
I think you would find most developed countries (Australia, UK, etc) have comparable medical education, but don't offer significant cost savings on procedures.
Furthermore, I doubt they have more doctors than they need either. India's a bit different it seems.
 
Also, I'm not sure that just because something is illegal ... sadly, it doesn't mean it isn't going to happen ... a lot. We have millions of illegal immigrants in this country because the jobs are here for the taking. They aren't here to terrorize us; they are here to work and live the best life that they can, and they really don't care what U.S. immigration law is. Further up the economic food chain, just because the billionaire UnitedHealthCare's CEO was a doctor by training doesn't mean that he would refuse to compromise his ethics on something like stock option backdating. Financial incentives have been known to exert pressure on some physicians to compromise their ethics.

If there are millions of radiology images that need to be examined ... maybe they will find their way to other countries as well. Likewise, it doesn't seem a stretch at all for some enterprising radiologist group to send computerized images overseas and then proof the work that comes back. It's much more difficult to sent patients overseas compared to computer files as far as I can tell. Finally, it might be really difficult to prove that an image was analyzed overseas as opposed to domestically.
 
Radiology is good money for very little work right now, but I don't know if 25 years into the future it will be the same way. Sooner or later, the reading of radiographs *will* be outsourced. Times change. Laws change. I think it's a good thing overall. Except for American radiologists.
 
I'd do ortho if I was so-inclined.

A little tid-bit about ortho:

A lot of ortho wannabes dream of being the team surgeon for a pro sports team. The thing they don't tell you is that the surgeon actually pays the team to be their surgeon. I guess there is a lot of money to be made when you have "NY Knicks Team Surgeon" in your Yellow Pages add. ehh?


Is this really true? Come on. These sports teams are on multimillion dollar budgets. One orthopedic surgeon is making peanuts compared to what Lebron James and company are making. Why would a sports team allow any physician to pay their way to getting the title "Knicks Team Surgeon"? Wouldn't it behoove the team to select the absolute best physician they can find since it is in their best interests to keep the players healthy and on the court. Sports is a high dollar industry. The difference between a championship and runner-up is huge.
 
Radiology is good money for very little work right now, but I don't know if 25 years into the future it will be the same way. Sooner or later, the reading of radiographs *will* be outsourced. Times change. Laws change. I think it's a good thing overall. Except for American radiologists.
And some expert said that by 2030, we *will* have nanobots in our brains improving our neural connections. Har. I take most predictions with a grain of salt, except that in 2030, we *will* still have taxes, and my body will be 24 years older than I am now (even if I'm not alive).
 
Times change. Laws change.

The laws of negligence (covering things like medmal) were derived from English law and have remained pretty constant in this country (give or take various tweaks) since its genesis. I think it will be a lot longer than 25 years before things change as drastically as some are suggesting.

As a prior poster suggested, there is no reason folks from abroad couldn't be licensed here and then go home and read films. However that doesn't provide the financial benefits people are envisioning when they talk about outsourcing.
 
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