Osteopathic EM programs

[ewokka]

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Ok, so initially I thought having an elective rotation in July was too early and that programs would forget me since incoming residents start then, but since I had no 3rd year EM rotation to get a SLOR it is more important to have rotate and have a SLOR by Aug/Sept than to wait for programs to rotate during peak season? Dang scheduling 4th year sucks, my school 4th year coordinator is gna hate me hahah.

 

[dav86]

Ok, so initially I thought having an elective rotation in July was too early and that programs would forget me since incoming residents start then, but since I had no 3rd year EM rotation to get a SLOR it is more important to have rotate and have a SLOR by Aug/Sept than to wait for programs to rotate during peak season? Dang scheduling 4th year sucks, my school 4th year coordinator is gna hate me hahah.

Best times for ACGME rotations to obtain SLOE are July-Sept. Don't worry about being remembered. SLOE should be your number one goal. Not only useful for the program you rotated at but also for all other programs you apply to. ACGME is a little different than AOA. To get into AOA programs, rotating is immensely important. For ACGME, obtaining and getting an excellent SLOE is the important part. An honors SLOE will help you get interviews to any ACGME program you apply to.

 

[ewokka]

Best times for ACGME rotations to obtain SLOE are July-Sept. Don't worry about being remembered. SLOE should be your number one goal. Not only useful for the program you rotated at but also for all other programs you apply to. ACGME is a little different than AOA. To get into AOA programs, rotating is immensely important. For ACGME, obtaining and getting an excellent SLOE is the important part. An honors SLOE will help you get interviews to any ACGME program you apply to.

Thanks for the heads up bro. Much appreciated

 

[Siggy]

N/M... I thought it was a different program...

 

[SupraDOc]

Did any of them catch the 6 open EM spots (including the 1 EM/FM and 2 EM/IMs)? I'm starting to think that matching into a TRI was more of a Godsend than I felt on Match Day.

Just curious, does anyone know what 3 EM programs failed to fill their spots?

 

[Siggy]

Just curious, does anyone know what 3 EM programs failed to fill their spots?

EM:
Oklahoma State: 2
PCOM Aria: 1

FM-EM:
St. Barnabas, NY: 1

IM-EM:
St. Barnabas, NY: 2
Ohio Valley, WV: 1 (withdrawn from the match per later post).

 

[GTP]

Hi guys..does anyone have any recent experience with conemaugh jonstown PA or at st johns providence in Oakland-macomb? I have offers to rotate at both places but can only do one. Location wise, st john seems superior. Any differences between oakland and macomb? Are any of the PDs known for being open/honest with rank positions and/or known to only hire from the pool of rotating students? What were the staff and residents like? Most of the info I've found here will be 5 years old by the time I go to either location, so I'm looking for something more recent.

Thanks in advance everyone

 

[Makati2008]

Where did everyone match this year( rank wise) on the osteopathic side? There hasn't been much feedback.

 

[GTP]

Where did everyone match this year( rank wise) on the osteopathic side? There hasn't been much feedback.

Yeah im wondering the same thing too. Did anyone match at OVRH, CCMH, Integris, or conemaugh?

 

[Highway61]

I can put in my 2 cents on conemaugh. I rotated there and ranked it high (top 3) this year. I'll address your questions. The residents are a great group of people who really know their stuff. Compared to many AOA programs, it's a somewhat larger residency. I think they increased to 6-7 residents/yr this year. The ED is busy and they see a lot of sick people. Pretty high admit rate. With that, they do a lot of procedures and see a decent amount of trauma.
The PD is a great guy and he goes out of his way to make sure his residents are happy. In terms of post interview communication, I received a call from the PD to address any questions I had about the program. There was no talk of rank list, either subtle or overt.
Johnstown, well... It's johnstown. Watch 'Slapshot' to get an idea. It hasn't changed much since then. However, if you ski, bike, or climb (or are willing to learn), it's a surprisingly good area.
There was an old review on sdn that said if this program was in a big city, it'd be a 10/10. I certainly agree.

 

[Makati2008]

Guys/Girls- there is a supposed open spot tri wise at inspira in Vineland NJ. This might be a good place to get your foot in the door since this program has an EM residency attached.

The original post is in the osteopathic portion of the forum.

 

[GTP]

I can put in my 2 cents on conemaugh. I rotated there and ranked it high (top 3) this year. I'll address your questions. The residents are a great group of people who really know their stuff. Compared to many AOA programs, it's a somewhat larger residency. I think they increased to 6-7 residents/yr this year. The ED is busy and they see a lot of sick people. Pretty high admit rate. With that, they do a lot of procedures and see a decent amount of trauma.
The PD is a great guy and he goes out of his way to make sure his residents are happy. In terms of post interview communication, I received a call from the PD to address any questions I had about the program. There was no talk of rank list, either subtle or overt.
Johnstown, well... It's johnstown. Watch 'Slapshot' to get an idea. It hasn't changed much since then. However, if you ski, bike, or climb (or are willing to learn), it's a surprisingly good area.
There was an old review on sdn that said if this program was in a big city, it'd be a 10/10. I certainly agree.

THanks! This is very helpful.

 

[traitorman]

whats the best way to set yourself up for interviews at both MD and DO places (obviously more chances the better)? My aways are tentatively set up Aug-Nov with September being dual and November being my only MD. If interviews start to be sent out September, I feel I'm already going to be late for ACGME places. and as some of you have said, osteopathic programs don't necessarily participate in SLOEs. I ask because if I don't match osteopathic, I would love to give myself a chance at the MD match.

also, is it looked down on if you ask a DO program for an SLOE? I feel like they might think you're not committed to the osteopathic match and thus not rank you as highly.

 

[joeDO2]

whats the best way to set yourself up for interviews at both MD and DO places (obviously more chances the better)? My aways are tentatively set up Aug-Nov with September being dual and November being my only MD. If interviews start to be sent out September, I feel I'm already going to be late for ACGME places. and as some of you have said, osteopathic programs don't necessarily participate in SLOEs. I ask because if I don't match osteopathic, I would love to give myself a chance at the MD match.

also, is it looked down on if you ask a DO program for an SLOE? I feel like they might think you're not committed to the osteopathic match and thus not rank you as highly.

many DO programs offer SLOEs. there are actually a few programs on the DO side that prefer you have a SLOE for the osteo match now (esp those dual progs) so I don't think its looked down upon at all. also keep in mind that if you don't match on the osteo side, your chances of matching MD are very low as well.

 

[joeDO2]

I think with the upcoming audition season it would be helpful to have an updated list of the programs that don't give interviews without a rotation. From what I've gathered on this forum so far....

Port St. Lucie
Freeman Hospitals
Charleston Regional
All Oklahoma Programs

 

[GTP]

I think with the upcoming audition season it would be helpful to have an updated list of the programs that don't give interviews without a rotation. From what I've gathered on this forum so far....

Port St. Lucie
Freeman Hospitals
Charleston Regional
All Oklahoma Programs

Okc integris still may not give an interview even after rotating

 

[GTP]

whats the best way to set yourself up for interviews at both MD and DO places (obviously more chances the better)? My aways are tentatively set up Aug-Nov with September being dual and November being my only MD. If interviews start to be sent out September, I feel I'm already going to be late for ACGME places. and as some of you have said, osteopathic programs don't necessarily participate in SLOEs. I ask because if I don't match osteopathic, I would love to give myself a chance at the MD match.

also, is it looked down on if you ask a DO program for an SLOE? I feel like they might think you're not committed to the osteopathic match and thus not rank you as highly.

I'm also wondering the same thing. I currently have an MD rotation set up for July, nothing in August, a DO program in September and another DO program in October. My plan was to have the two MD rotations first so I could get SLOEs early, but August has been proving very difficult to hack as I imagine everyone else is trying to do the same thing. Worst comes to worst, what would happen if I had nothing going on for August? That means I could get my first SLOE in by eras submittion, but the second one wouldn't come till sep/October, and it would be from a DO program. Is this bad? How many interviews have people gotten in the past with one MD SLOE and one DO SLOE?

Also, the two DO auditions I have are the two places I'll most likely end up ranking. However, it would still be nice to apply/interview at places like OVRH, doctors, st John. Can anyone comment on if these programs only interview/rank those who rotate?

 

[Makati2008]

Okc integris still may not give an interview even after rotating

Also Tulsa doesn't interview it's more of a performance during your audition.

 

[traitorman]

many DO programs offer SLOEs. there are actually a few programs on the DO side that prefer you have a SLOE for the osteo match now (esp those dual progs) so I don't think its looked down upon at all. also keep in mind that if you don't match on the osteo side, your chances of matching MD are very low as well.

i guess the reason I'm asking is because I know some applicants who rotated at all ACGME places but were average in terms of scores and application. they did not get accepted via the DO match (because of all ACGME auditions) but were able to land an ACGME spot at one of the places they rotated at. if they rotated at all DO spots, they probably would have had a good chance at matching DO.

so basically, I guess an applicant can ideally rotate at 2 MD/2 DO spots to keep their doors open for both matches. I'm just curious if anyone has done this and was able to get interviews with lets say 1 DO SLOE and 1 MD SLOE by September when interviews start.

 

[GTP]

i guess the reason I'm asking is because I know some applicants who rotated at all ACGME places but were average in terms of scores and application. they did not get accepted via the DO match (because of all ACGME auditions) but were able to land an ACGME spot at one of the places they rotated at. if they rotated at all DO spots, they probably would have had a good chance at matching DO.

so basically, I guess an applicant can ideally rotate at 2 MD/2 DO spots to keep their doors open for both matches. I'm just curious if anyone has done this and was able to get interviews with lets say 1 DO SLOE and 1 MD SLOE by September when interviews start.

++1. This is exactly what Im wondering about too

 

[throckmortonDO]

IF you are thinking about applying to Osteopathic programs there are a few things you will need to know going forward, and this applies to all osteopathic residencies. The ACGME merger has just been approved and programs now have to start being compliant. One of those ACGME stipulations is that the program must take a minimum of 6 residents per year and have a minimum of 40k visits ( for ABEM criteria). There may be a loophole since AOA programs are currently all 4 year programs, however I wouldn't count on it. The programs will also need to have didactics equivalent to current AcGME programs as well as 'minor and major' research criteria for all faculty. You can search the ABEM website for the definitions of these but it mandates that core faculty will need these for the program to be accredited. programs have till 2018-2020 to be compliant however many programs are already half-way through the accreditation process at this point and will be officially ACGME programs in 2015.

If you are considering AOA EM, the premise of this thread holds true - the audition rotation is very important, and EM is now very competitive due to many new DO schools, and many now looking at EM as a 'lifestyle' specialty, I'm not sure how true that is, but that's the view of it I think many medical students have. Try to get 550+ comlex and be well read and energetic on rotations. If you are considering ACGME you should know that within the past 2 years that applications to EM have tripled. you will need 225-230+ USMLE and a very strong SLOR from the CORD/SAEM. Matching ACGME with comlex only is basically not an option at this point like it was 10 years ago. Stranger things have happened but I wouldn't take any chances.

I would highly recommend the larger AOA programs which have qualified for dual accreditation in the past/ or are operating essentially like ACGME programs and will have no trouble with the new qualifications. I can provide input on the following AOA programs that I have experience with interviewing/rotating at/have friends training at, and can say that you have a much higher likelihood you will come out as equally trained as current ACGME counterparts. These programs are large enough and have the appropriate number of visits to the ED that will give you the diversity of training you need. Pay attention to sites that have >60k visits as these will give you good numbers and exposure. Don't train in programs that are artificially skewed - only 1 hospital in rich areas or in super poor areas with no out rotations/coverage of other hospitals. You need a good mix so you know how to treat everything.

Lehigh valley
Cook County IL
Lansing MI
St Joseph MI
St joseph NJ
Einstein PA
Charleston WV
Arrowhead CA
Genesys MI
Stratford NJ
Barnabas NY
Columbus OH
OKC
St lukes

There may be more and YMMV, however these are the ones I can speak for that have good volume and are safe bets. Keep in mind that at philly, NY, Jersey, chicago, you may find that you will have to do alot of nursing level scutwork which you may or may not like/want to do.

Currently the job market for EM is good, but with all the graduates training now it's hard to say what the job market will be like in a few years, thus, try to position yourself for the best chances of success. Go to a good program with good training. Like I said, the above is only my opinion and I am not looking for flames, I am sure there are some exceptions.


- friendly neighborhood upper level

 

[GTP]

IF you are thinking about applying to Osteopathic programs there are a few things you will need to know going forward, and this applies to all osteopathic residencies. The ACGME merger has just been approved and programs now have to start being compliant. One of those ACGME stipulations is that the program must take a minimum of 6 residents per year and have a minimum of 40k visits ( for ABEM criteria). There may be a loophole since AOA programs are currently all 4 year programs, however I wouldn't count on it. The programs will also need to have didactics equivalent to current AcGME programs as well as 'minor and major' research criteria for all faculty. You can search the ABEM website for the definitions of these but it mandates that core faculty will need these for the program to be accredited. programs have till 2018-2020 to be compliant however many programs are already half-way through the accreditation process at this point and will be officially ACGME programs in 2015.

If you are considering AOA EM, the premise of this thread holds true - the audition rotation is very important, and EM is now very competitive due to many new DO schools, and many now looking at EM as a 'lifestyle' specialty, I'm not sure how true that is, but that's the view of it I think many medical students have. Try to get 550+ comlex and be well read and energetic on rotations. If you are considering ACGME you should know that within the past 2 years that applications to EM have tripled. you will need 225-230+ USMLE and a very strong SLOR from the CORD/SAEM. Matching ACGME with comlex only is basically not an option at this point like it was 10 years ago. Stranger things have happened but I wouldn't take any chances.

I would highly recommend the larger AOA programs which have qualified for dual accreditation in the past/ or are operating essentially like ACGME programs and will have no trouble with the new qualifications. I can provide input on the following AOA programs that I have experience with interviewing/rotating at/have friends training at, and can say that you have a much higher likelihood you will come out as equally trained as current ACGME counterparts. These programs are large enough and have the appropriate number of visits to the ED that will give you the diversity of training you need. Pay attention to sites that have >60k visits as these will give you good numbers and exposure. Don't train in programs that are artificially skewed - only 1 hospital in rich areas or in super poor areas with no out rotations/coverage of other hospitals. You need a good mix so you know how to treat everything.

Lehigh valley
Cook County IL
Lansing MI
St Joseph MI
St joseph NJ
Einstein PA
Charleston WV
Arrowhead CA
Genesys MI
Stratford NJ
Barnabas NY
Columbus OH
OKC
St lukes

There may be more and YMMV, however these are the ones I can speak for that have good volume and are safe bets. Keep in mind that at philly, NY, Jersey, chicago, you may find that you will have to do alot of nursing level scutwork which you may or may not like/want to do.

Currently the job market for EM is good, but with all the graduates training now it's hard to say what the job market will be like in a few years, thus, try to position yourself for the best chances of success. Go to a good program with good training. Like I said, the above is only my opinion and I am not looking for flames, I am sure there are some exceptions.


- friendly neighborhood upper level

I'm surprised conemaugh didn't make the cut :-(

 

[Makati2008]

IF you are thinking about applying to Osteopathic programs there are a few things you will need to know going forward, and this applies to all osteopathic residencies. The ACGME merger has just been approved and programs now have to start being compliant. One of those ACGME stipulations is that the program must take a minimum of 6 residents per year and have a minimum of 40k visits ( for ABEM criteria). There may be a loophole since AOA programs are currently all 4 year programs, however I wouldn't count on it. The programs will also need to have didactics equivalent to current AcGME programs as well as 'minor and major' research criteria for all faculty. You can search the ABEM website for the definitions of these but it mandates that core faculty will need these for the program to be accredited. programs have till 2018-2020 to be compliant however many programs are already half-way through the accreditation process at this point and will be officially ACGME programs in 2015.

If you are considering AOA EM, the premise of this thread holds true - the audition rotation is very important, and EM is now very competitive due to many new DO schools, and many now looking at EM as a 'lifestyle' specialty, I'm not sure how true that is, but that's the view of it I think many medical students have. Try to get 550+ comlex and be well read and energetic on rotations. If you are considering ACGME you should know that within the past 2 years that applications to EM have tripled. you will need 225-230+ USMLE and a very strong SLOR from the CORD/SAEM. Matching ACGME with comlex only is basically not an option at this point like it was 10 years ago. Stranger things have happened but I wouldn't take any chances.

I would highly recommend the larger AOA programs which have qualified for dual accreditation in the past/ or are operating essentially like ACGME programs and will have no trouble with the new qualifications. I can provide input on the following AOA programs that I have experience with interviewing/rotating at/have friends training at, and can say that you have a much higher likelihood you will come out as equally trained as current ACGME counterparts. These programs are large enough and have the appropriate number of visits to the ED that will give you the diversity of training you need. Pay attention to sites that have >60k visits as these will give you good numbers and exposure. Don't train in programs that are artificially skewed - only 1 hospital in rich areas or in super poor areas with no out rotations/coverage of other hospitals. You need a good mix so you know how to treat everything.

Lehigh valley
Cook County IL
Lansing MI
St Joseph MI
St joseph NJ
Einstein PA
Charleston WV
Arrowhead CA
Genesys MI
Stratford NJ
Barnabas NY
Columbus OH
OKC
St lukes

There may be more and YMMV, however these are the ones I can speak for that have good volume and are safe bets. Keep in mind that at philly, NY, Jersey, chicago, you may find that you will have to do alot of nursing level scutwork which you may or may not like/want to do.

Currently the job market for EM is good, but with all the graduates training now it's hard to say what the job market will be like in a few years, thus, try to position yourself for the best chances of success. Go to a good program with good training. Like I said, the above is only my opinion and I am not looking for flames, I am sure there are some exceptions.

I

- friendly neighborhood upper level

I have a question or two for you.
1.)how do you know that these programs are already halfway through the accreditation process?

2.)Why are you saying that it's impossible to match with complex only? I ended up with double digit interviews with that only and one of the programs that didn't fill I interviewed and another I missed the interview due to weather.

 

[throckmortonDO]

Regarding Conemaugh, I don't have any experience with that program. I know they take 4 seats per year and the new program director there is thought highly of, thats all I know. Like I said before, my list is only of programs that I have experience with/knowledge of that I am recommending medical students consider. The list above was of programs that take >= 6 residents per year and have high volume.

In terms of "how do I know how some programs are applying through accreditation" , it's not some big secret, feel free to ask your own PD, assuming that some of you have already matched.

Newark NJ is a dual AOA/ACGME program, I'm sure it is good, I just have no personal experience with it.

Regarding Makati2008 if you received multiple interviews with comlex only, that doesn't surprise me. A few yrs ago several of my classmates also did that and got interviews at several ACGME programs, they just failed to match and are now in other specialties or AOA programs after doing transitional years. Again, you may be the exception and not the rule, but if you are a 1st 2nd or 3rd year DO student, do yourself a favor, study hard for the USMLE. It will open the doors that you need if you are shooting for an ACGME slot. Don't chance it by taking comlex only.

Like I said in my post. I am only speaking about those programs I have some knowledge of/experience with that I am recommending, I'm sure that there are many other programs, and others can come forth on this thread to speak about, which of course this thread is all about. I can only seak based on my experience.

Again, your experience may vary.

 

[DocEspana]

I agree with everything he said, except the 6 residents part. I'd personally tell you to be wary of programs with less than 4 people because size matters in ED. It's a good barometer. But the acgme addressed this and said they won't penalize programs for this specific fault (literally the minimum EM residency size was brought up). Could they change their mind in time? Definitely. But they intend to exempt prior A OA programs from that specific requirement if they meet the others (mostly requirements on number of teaching attendings)

 

[OR4life]

I have a question regarding the amount of years of training, I've noticed recently that some ACGME programs require DO residents to complete an intern year prior to starting the 3 year residency program, so total 4 years of training. Is this typical of ACGME programs when it comes to DO students?
I

 

[Siggy]

I have a question regarding the amount of years of training, I've noticed recently that some ACGME programs require DO residents to complete an intern year prior to starting the 3 year residency program, so total 4 years of training. Is this typical of ACGME programs when it comes to DO students?
I

While I'm not sure, one thing to remember is that there are 4 or 5 states that require a DO to complete an AOA internship (or petition the AOA for equivalency) in order to be licensed.

 

[Apollyon]

I agree with everything he said, except the 6 residents part. I'd personally tell you to be wary of programs with less than 4 people because size matters in ED. It's a good barometer. But the acgme addressed this and said they won't penalize programs for this specific fault (literally the minimum EM residency size was brought up). Could they change their mind in time? Definitely. But they intend to exempt prior A OA programs from that specific requirement if they meet the others (mostly requirements on number of teaching attendings)

Hamot sees 80K/year and has between 2 and 4 residents per year.

 

[prankster]

Hamot sees 80K/year and has between 2 and 4 residents per year.

UPMC Hamot actually has 4 residents per year, has completely filled in the match every year 2009 and afterwards

 

[throckmortonDO]

Regarding what Docespana said, I stipulated the exception in my original post.

The stipulation from the ACGME is that programs must have have 6 residents per class. Given the fact that the majority of ACGME programs are 3 years long, that means a total program size at minimum of 18 residents. The bulletin given to PD's says nothing of exceptions at the moment. Word is however they might make exceptions for the other stipulation (40k volume min) or major and minor criteria qualifying core faculty.

 

[DocEspana]

Hamot sees 80K/year and has between 2 and 4 residents per year.

It's not a hard and fast rule, only one to keep in mind. Having less than six residents is odd and could be indicative of not getting the case diversity. Its not all about sheer walk in and get registered numbers.

But idk about specific programs, only concerns I've heard people in medical education verbalize about the reasoning for the six resident minimum.

 

[Trogghunter]

While I'm not sure, one thing to remember is that there are 4 or 5 states that require a DO to complete an AOA internship (or petition the AOA for equivalency) in order to be licensed.

Currently, if you complete the 'requirements' under resolution 42, which is the petition to avoid the internship yr, you'll be fine. As a PD from UF explained to me, it's very lenient and easy to complete. A resident told me that it took all of 3hrs.

Pertaining to comlex only, if you have >600 on both and pass PE by the time ERAS opens, you'll get interviews and probably should match well if you interview well.

 

[Makati2008]

Currently, if you complete the 'requirements' under resolution 42, which is the petition to avoid the internship yr, you'll be fine. As a PD from UF explained to me, it's very lenient and easy to complete. A resident told me that it took all of 3hrs.

Pertaining to comlex only, if you have >600 on both and pass PE by the time ERAS opens, you'll get interviews and probably should match well if you interview well.[/bQUOTE]

Are you EM trogg?

 

[SpeedracerX]

Do people graduating from an AOA residency have more trouble getting jobs in desirable locations compared to their ACGME counterparts?

 

[Trogghunter]

http://nsucomems.tripod.com/match/emresidencyfaq.htm. does this still hold true?

 

[DOaz]

Is it near impossible to match DO EM during traditional rotating intership program? If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it either here or via PM.

 

[DocEspana]

Is it near impossible to match DO EM during traditional rotating intership program? If anyone has any advice I would appreciate it either here or via PM.

Thats what I hear. But you hear a lot of things. My guess would be that AOA EM wont want a TRI unless they had someone drop out of the first year of their program (actually not unheard of, but dont plan for it).

 

[DO3]

I'm surprised conemaugh didn't make the cut :-(

Conemaugh is a great program. Was one of my friend's number one. Awesome program director, training, and residents. Hired a new research director for the coming year who is one of the current chief residents at Lehigh Valley. I believe they also took 6 residents this year.

 

[Siggy]

Thats what I hear. But you hear a lot of things. My guess would be that AOA EM wont want a TRI unless they had someone drop out of the first year of their program (actually not unheard of, but dont plan for it).

Of course the problem is that if you fail to match EM and want to give it another try, there's really not much of an option other than an intern year, hope, and prayers.

 

[DocEspana]

Of course the problem is that if you fail to match EM and want to give it another try, there's really not much of an option other than an intern year, hope, and prayers.

Well no. There is ACGME EM, which seems totally fine with people who did intern years. A few programs even prefer them over graduates (judging from programs who rejected me last year saying that exact thing, and held true by interviewing me... mostly... this year)

 

[gan911]

don't forget st.john in michigan. 3 hospitals (36,k 75k, and 130k) and an ACGME program at the main hospital available for program merger. pretty much all the same attendings. 2 ultrasound directors. largest osteopathic gme system in the country. Increased the # of residents taken yearly as well.

IF you are thinking about applying to Osteopathic programs there are a few things you will need to know going forward, and this applies to all osteopathic residencies. The ACGME merger has just been approved and programs now have to start being compliant. One of those ACGME stipulations is that the program must take a minimum of 6 residents per year and have a minimum of 40k visits ( for ABEM criteria). There may be a loophole since AOA programs are currently all 4 year programs, however I wouldn't count on it. The programs will also need to have didactics equivalent to current AcGME programs as well as 'minor and major' research criteria for all faculty. You can search the ABEM website for the definitions of these but it mandates that core faculty will need these for the program to be accredited. programs have till 2018-2020 to be compliant however many programs are already half-way through the accreditation process at this point and will be officially ACGME programs in 2015.

If you are considering AOA EM, the premise of this thread holds true - the audition rotation is very important, and EM is now very competitive due to many new DO schools, and many now looking at EM as a 'lifestyle' specialty, I'm not sure how true that is, but that's the view of it I think many medical students have. Try to get 550+ comlex and be well read and energetic on rotations. If you are considering ACGME you should know that within the past 2 years that applications to EM have tripled. you will need 225-230+ USMLE and a very strong SLOR from the CORD/SAEM. Matching ACGME with comlex only is basically not an option at this point like it was 10 years ago. Stranger things have happened but I wouldn't take any chances.

I would highly recommend the larger AOA programs which have qualified for dual accreditation in the past/ or are operating essentially like ACGME programs and will have no trouble with the new qualifications. I can provide input on the following AOA programs that I have experience with interviewing/rotating at/have friends training at, and can say that you have a much higher likelihood you will come out as equally trained as current ACGME counterparts. These programs are large enough and have the appropriate number of visits to the ED that will give you the diversity of training you need. Pay attention to sites that have >60k visits as these will give you good numbers and exposure. Don't train in programs that are artificially skewed - only 1 hospital in rich areas or in super poor areas with no out rotations/coverage of other hospitals. You need a good mix so you know how to treat everything.

Lehigh valley
Cook County IL
Lansing MI
St Joseph MI
St joseph NJ
Einstein PA
Charleston WV
Arrowhead CA
Genesys MI
Stratford NJ
Barnabas NY
Columbus OH
OKC
St lukes

There may be more and YMMV, however these are the ones I can speak for that have good volume and are safe bets. Keep in mind that at philly, NY, Jersey, chicago, you may find that you will have to do alot of nursing level scutwork which you may or may not like/want to do.

Currently the job market for EM is good, but with all the graduates training now it's hard to say what the job market will be like in a few years, thus, try to position yourself for the best chances of success. Go to a good program with good training. Like I said, the above is only my opinion and I am not looking for flames, I am sure there are some exceptions.


- friendly neighborhood upper level

 

[ewokka]

Back to SLOR/SLOE. If you aren't accepted for a rotation at acgme program through vsas early or at all what then? Most places only take 2-4 students /month at most. A lot of ppl won't get to rotate where they apply... Do SLORs have to come from places w ER residencies? Apply early and to 2-3/period to increase odds? What else?

 

[OR4life]

Is it a bad idea to do a audition rotation at an MD hospital that you know doesn't take DOs and actually only takes really competitive MDs?
I've heard the rotation is an excellent learning experience and I was thinking about making it my first audition of 4th year so I can know what i'm doing for when I audition at a program that I actually have a chance at?
Would I be better off just doing a rotation at a different program that is more DO friendly?

 

[gutonc]

Is it a bad idea to do a audition rotation at an MD hospital that you know doesn't take DOs and actually only takes really competitive MDs?
I've heard the rotation is an excellent learning experience and I was thinking about making it my first audition of 4th year so I can know what i'm doing for when I audition at a program that I actually have a chance at?
Would I be better off just doing a rotation at a different program that is more DO friendly?

Are you doing it for the learning experience or to score a good SLOE and an interview?

And do you really want to spend a month in Nashville?

 

[OR4life]

Are you doing it for the learning experience or to score a good SLOE and an interview?

And do you really want to spend a month in Nashville?

haha touche...well I wanna do it to learn, but because the way my schedule is set up, I would need to get a SLOE of it too.
I would rather find a DO friendly program with a good student oriented learning experience and get a SLOE out of it, if I can.

I'd be willing to go anywhere I can get free housing.

 

[sanityonleave]

haha touche...well I wanna do it to learn, but because the way my schedule is set up, I would need to get a SLOE of it too.
I would rather find a DO friendly program with a good student oriented learning experience and get a SLOE out of it, if I can.

I'd be willing to go anywhere I can get free housing.

Palmetto Health offers free housing, I believe. They would also be more DO friendly than Vandy.

That said, IIRC there was a DO on here who rotated at Vandy a while back and got a letter. Apparently they wrote him a good letter but under the section where it says "Where would you rank this candidate on your rank list" they were honest and wrote that he wouldn't be ranked. YMMV.

 

[traitorman]

dumb question, but is an Ultrasound/toxicology SLOE weighed differently than a regular SLOE? (and on a side note, is it bad to do U/S when I haven't even had my core EM rotation yet?)

 

[QuackaDO]

Palmetto Health offers free housing, I believe. They would also be more DO friendly than Vandy.

That said, IIRC there was a DO on here who rotated at Vandy a while back and got a letter. Apparently they wrote him a good letter but under the section where it says "Where would you rank this candidate on your rank list" they were honest and wrote that he wouldn't be ranked. YMMV.

Lol, little did I know when I told that story about when I rotated there that it would become the thing of lore here on this board. The rotation is good... no, it's outstanding. You will learn more in that month than you probably did in your entire 3rd yr... or at least that will be pertinent for EM that is. They WILL write you a great letter (unless you're a jackass and earn a poor one). You will have to work to get honors, but it's achievable and well looked upon. You will still likely get the "will not rank"... well, unless your Step 1 is over 240 and then who knows. If you are planning to do the ACGME match this month is one hell of a primer and a great letter. If you do NOT plan to do MD match and only want the DO match I'd probably skip... they "may" wonder why you did a month at an MD facility and it could reflect poorly plus the letter wouldn't carry as much weight in the DO world probably. Each person's situation is different but I can unequivocally say that the month helped me, my application, and everything else... even with the "will not rank" notation. Now with the "real" story there it's up to you to decide...

 

[421822]

Can anyone comment on the new University Hospitals Richmond program in Cleveland? Thanks!

 

[Highway61]

Can anyone comment on the new University Hospitals Richmond program in Cleveland? Thanks!

Well, they are still placing recruiting ads in Annals and ACEPnow for program director (and have been since before last interview season), which I see as a red flag. The current director is a good guy, but he was very open to interviewees last year that he was only temporary while they seek a permanent director.

I had very mixed feelings about this place. The two base ERs are very low volume (<30k)/low acuity (very little cardiac/trauma/OBGYN/stroke...little/no specialties in house). They also had a lot of nonEM didactics every week, including weekly OMM lectures/rounds. Also, on interview day, there was no one to give us a tour, so we just wandered with an interviewee who had rotated there. No dinner, and we met only one EM resident on interview day.

On the plus side, residents spend a few months/yr at Case Medical center ER and didactics are shared with the Case EM program.