Osteopathic EM programs

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Ok guys this is going to be long but hopefully a little helpful! Below are reviews for all the programs I auditioned/interviewed. Now that match day is over I feel more comfortable posting this.
Ohio

St John Medical Center- Westlake, OH

Shifts- 10 hours

New residents- 4

Salary- 1st yr 49K, ipad, $1000 meal allowance

Location- Westlake, OH 11 miles west of Cleveland, affluent white suburb

Didactics- 5 hours on Thursday mornings, 1 hour drive away, part of consortium with 3 other programs

Thoughts- didactics are disorganized and far away, but have heard they are becoming better. Residents seem cliquey. ER has 2 trauma rooms, about 16 other ER rooms. Pt population is old white ppl. Get some trauma then life flight out. Get to spend a month on life flight. Great program director who will do anything for his residents. Some changes happening with UH takeover-lost at least 3 core faculty members. Solid program overall, weak on OB and anesthesia.

Doctors Hospital-Columbus Ohio

Shifts- 10 hours

New residents- 8

Salary- 49k

Location- west Columbus, not great area of Columbus , large somali population

Didactics- Thursday mornings 700-1130. Small group discussions, SIM lab in hospital, oral board cases.

Thoughts- Send out basically any complicated peds case, traumas. 3 pods, residents only work green and blue, adding orange pod (low acuity) shifts. Busy ER, not a lot of procedures, other services come down to take care of their own patients. Good reputation. Fun place to live, lots of traffic.

Grandview Medical Center-Dayton OH

Shifts- 12 hours (6am-6pm upper level residents, 10am-10pm interns, 6pm-6am 2nd yr residents)

New residents- 3

Salary – 45K 1st yr – 50 k 4th year

Location- in downtown Dayton, not a great area (can’t walk to your car late at night)

Didactics- Wednesday mornings 7-12, plus M&M once a month?. Senior resident lead didactics

Thoughts- 19 bed ER, low volume. Very resident run-4th year resident runs department. Very lax on what counts as research. Can moonlight in urgent care starting 2nd year and at busy ERs (Kettering, Miami valley) 3rd and 4th year. Free food for residents in doctors dining or cafeteria!

Mercy Memorial- Marietta Ohio

Shifts- 9 hours

New residents- 4-6 (depending on acgme status)

Salary-45k 1st yr – 51k 4th year,

Location- Marietta Ohio, near border of West Virginia, small town on the river, near Parkersburg WV which is a bigger town

Out rotations- peds at Nationwide in Columbus, trauma and SICU at Grant, ICU in Charleston WV-housing provided for all out rotations

Thoughts- started in 2011, only residency program at the hospital, can moonlight halfway through 3rd year, completed ACGME site visit, will most likely become officially ACGME after committee meeting in Jan-> will become 3 year residency

St. Joseph/St. Elizabeth-Youngstown OH

Shifts- 12 hour shifts, 15 shifts/month

New residents- 6 @St. E’s, 2 @St. Joseph, programs will merge after acgme accreditation

Salary- 45K, $225/month for food

Location- in between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, medium sized town

Didactics- didactics alternate between St. Joseph’s and St. Elizabeth’s

Out rotations- peds @ akron childrens Youngstown campus, Trauma at St. Elizabeth youngstown

Other- Epic for EMR, no formal ultrasound month, can moonlight at a stand alone ER, St. Elizabeth pt population is mostly older people, hospital is brand new. St Jospeh has younger pt population, mostly peds and amish patients.
 
Michigan

Lakeland-St. Joseph, MI

Shifts-10 hrs

New residents- 6

Salary-46K 1st year+ 2K educational stipend (can use on medical equipment/laptops)

Location-St. Joseph, MI, an hour away from everything (grand rapids, south bend, Chicago)

Didactics-5 hours Wednesday mornings, at hospital – part of Michigan statewide campus system-videos in to lectures

Out rotations-toxicology at Cook County, trauma and PICU in Grand Rapids

Thoughts- small town, would be hard to find job for significant other if not in healthcare. Have to drive an hour to get to anything. Program seems very academically oriented-very structured research, curriculum seems very structured and organized. Residents very friendly all hang out with each other and attendings. 2-4th years do shifts in Niles, smaller more rural ED. Big ER with 40 rooms including 10 fast track. Get traumas from surrounding areas then lifeflight out to bigger hospitals. Just graduated 1st class.

St. Mary Mercy-Livonia, MI

Shifts- 8-9.5 hours depending on pod

New residents- 6

Salary- $50k 1st yr

Location- 30 minutes west of Detroit. 20ish minutes from Ann Arbor , Affluentish area

Didactics: Wednesday mornings at the hospital. Once a month at Michigan State, residents and attendings do lectures

Thoughts- good group of residents, all get along. Good teaching faculty. Senior ER- not much peds. Brand new ER. 3 pods, level II trauma. Can do trauma at shock trauma in Baltimore (have to pay for housing). Good non EM rotations . Lots to do around the hospital, good job market for SO.

Promedica Monroe-Monroe Michigan

Shifts- 10 hour shifts

New residents- 6

Salary- 51k

Location- Monroe Michigan, 15 miles north of Toledo, 40 minutes from Ann Arbor, 40 minutes south of Detroit, small town

Didactics- Wednesday mornings. Very structured, schedule planned out in advance.

Thoughts- new program only has 2 classes so far, still a work in progress-working out trauma and peds rotations still, picking up more shifts in Promedica Toledo -> get more pathology, new energetic young PD, no food stipeds, not a designated trauma center, residents all get along and seem happy


Beaumont Trenton (formerly Oakwood), Trenton MI

Shifts- 10s at Beaumont Trenton, 12s at Dearborn

New Residents- 4

Salary-50k 1st year

Location- Trenton, MI. 30 mins south of detroit

Didactics- Wednesday mornings. Heavy on board prep ( oral and written)

Thoughts- Rotate at two hospitals, Dearborn and Trenton southshore. Dearborn is busy, very sick level 2, only 2nd years and up work there. Southshore less busy, less acute, also level 2. Lots of procedures especially at Dearborn. Most residents live in Dearborn or Trenton. Most residents have kids, don’t seem to hang out together much. Can moonlight as soon as you get your license. Very big on rotating or picking up shifts to be ranked high.

Botsford Hospital- Farmington Hills, MI

Shifts-10 hours

New residents- 6

Salary- 46K 1st yr

Location-Farmington Hills, MI, suburb of Detroit

Out rotations- PICU and peds @beaumont, MICU at Henry Ford, Tox at DMC, Trauma at Shock Trauma (will pay for housing)

Thoughts- 40 bed ER with plans to expand to 80, diverse patient population, , Lvl 2 trauma, busy ER with lots of procedures, $15/day for food


Henry Ford Wyandotte-Wyandotte MI

Shifts- 10 hours

New residents-6

Salary- 51k

Location-downriver of Detroit. Residents are spread out about where they live, some live in Detroit or royal oak,others live in Wyandotte or surrounding areas

Out rotations- SICU and trauma at Henry Ford Main, Tox, peds @ childrens hospital of Michigan, 4th year trauma at shock trauma

Other- no food stipend, becoming a 3 year program, 1:1 faculty to resident ratio, can moonlight starting 3rd year
 
North Carolina

Southeasten Health-Lumberton NC

Shifts-12 hours

New Residents- 4

Salary-46 k 1st yr thru 49k 4th year

Location- Lumberton NC, 30 minutes south of Fayetteville, gang action in Lumberton (penetrating trauma), half residents live in Fayetteville, half in lumberton

Didactics- Wednesdays 730-1, case studies, board review, lectures, use Tintanelli

Thoughts- free breakfast and lunch on weekdays, ultrasound based on UNC’s curriculum, applying for ACGME in spring 2016-still deciding on 3 year or 4 year program, lots of penetrating trauma and car accidents (near 95), can moonlight in Urgent Care starting 2nd year, first time this program is going through the match, still working on curriculum and how the program will be run, hospital staff still trying to figure out what a resident is.


Rhode Island

Kent Hospital-Warwick RI

Shifts-9 hours, 20 1st year, 19 2nd, 18, 3rd, 17 4th

New Residents-6

Salary- 48 1st yr -55k 4th yr

Location-Warwick Rhode Island, 15 minutes south of providence, 45 minutes from Boston

Out rotations- Toxicology in Boston (they pay for your train pass), 2 blocks trauma at shock trauma (pay for housing)

Didactics- 8-1 on Thursdays, uses Rosen’s

Thoughts- can moonlight at mother and infants hospital after doing OB ER rotation, ER split into care teams, 70k patients/yr, hyperbaric chambers at hospital, already submitted ACGME app and completed site visit-waiting for Jan committee decision, will remain 4 year program, 1K academic stipend yearly, 1500/yr for conference travel, 1:1 faculty to resident ratio, residents don't put any orders in while in ED, circle what they want and secretary enters orders

Pennsylvania

Conemaugh- Johnstown, PA

Location- 1.5ish hours from Pittsburgh, small town (closest target is an hour away!)

Shifts- 9 hour shifts, 19, 18, 17, 16

New residents- 6

Salary- 51k 1st yr – 58k 4th yr + 5k moving stipend, $220/month for food

Out rotations- peds in Wilmington DE

Other- Team doctor for D3 hockey team in town, moonlight in stand alone ER, level one trauma-ER only manages airway in traumas, small town

Albert Einstein- Philadelphia, PA

Shifts- 12 hours 1st and 2nd year, 10 hours 3rd year, 8 hours 4th year. 3 days, 3 nights, 3 off.

New residents- 15 (10 from acgme match, 5 from AOA)

Salary- 51k 1st yr -56k 4th yr

Location- Hospital is located in N philly. Most residents live in center city or surrounding suburbs

Out rotations- PICU at childrens hospital of Philly, burn unit at temple

Didactics- split into junior level didactics for 1st and 2nd years and senior level didactics for 3rd and 4th years- cover more basic information in junior level, more advanced information + job hunting help for senior level

Other- busiest level 1 trauma in philly with a very sick patient population. Residents very involved in the community and with community service. 100% board pass rate. ED is autonomous, even though the hospital has other residents and fellows ED handles everything themselves first. 2nd years handle all medical airways, 3rd years handle all trauma airways and codes, 4th years run department, are trauma chief. Trauma is split with surgery every other day.


Illinois

St. James-Olympia Fields, IL

Shifts- depends on hospital

New residents- 16 ( 8 interns at St. James, 8 at Swedish Covenant (N Chicago))

Salary-48k 1st yr -54k 4th yr

Location- multiple hospitals throughout Chicago and NW Indiana (lots of driving!)

Out rotations- Trauma at Cook County

Other- program is divided into 3 clusters- downtown Chicago, NW Indiana and Swedish/Olympia fields. Can request which cluster you want, almost everyone gets what they ask for. Rotate around the core hospitals in your cluster. Didactics location rotates between all the clusters. Submitting ACGME app summer 2016 and planning to stay a 4 year program. Use SIM and Cadaver lab at CCOM. Seems like at least half of each class is CCOM students who all know each other already. Residents have to be comfortable working in a variety of hospitals and ER's, and be very comfortable driving around chicago. Most residents live in downtown chicago
 
Curious if any of you are aware of the programs that have confirmed they will be transitioning to a 3 year curriculum this July? I knew a couple programs were going through this process when I was interviewing, and was interested to see if any had successfully transitioned to 3 years already or heard back regarding a site visit.
 
CRkid84 said:
Curious if any of you are aware of the programs that have confirmed they will be transitioning to a 3 year curriculum this July? I knew a couple programs were going through this process when I was interviewing, and was interested to see if any had successfully transitioned to 3 years already or heard back regarding a site visit.
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Not sure any have. Our program was one of the first to have a site review (according to our site reviewer last summer), and we still haven't heard back yet from the RRC. I find it hard to believe there are other programs that have already gotten full approval yet based on our experience at my institution. Most of us are sitting in preaccredidation status. Also, I'm wondering how other programs are going to handle accredidation? Are they just giving up the AOA accredidation altogether, or becoming duelly accredited until 2020 when the merger takes effect? Because if duel, then they'll still have a 4 year tract accredited by the AOA and a 3 year tract by the ACGME. As an osteopathic student, if you match in the osteopathic match, that would bind you to the osteopathic tract which under current AOA rules would be a four year residency.
 
Congratulations to this years class who just matched in Emergency Medicine!

I've lurked on these SDN forums for years dating back to when I was a student 10 years ago. I still check in from time to time, but never posted, but wanted to come here to offer free advice if anyone is looking for some direction. I know the students who are finishing their 3rd year and going into their 4th year often feel lost and get told a lot of conflicting things, so I wanted to offer to give perspective from the attending program leadership side of things. I'm the associate PD and clerkship director at an AOA residency with ACGME pre-accredidation status. Over the past two years I've been seeing more and more misinformation among the students coming in to rotate and interview. So after we had another successful match again this year, I wanted to come and sign up and post here on the forum and offer to answer any questions, concerns, requests for advice, etc for any EM interested students in order to help them better prepare for the road ahead. I'm an MD who did an allopathic residency, however, I work at an osteopathic residency program, so I'm going to stick to the osteopathic forums for now, but I'd be happy to answer questions about either match process since I have experience in both.

Feel free to respond to me in this thread if you have any questions, or send me a private message with any questions you may have. I look forward to helping out and answering any questions anyone has.
 
From what I've heard, our program is in pre-accreditation but still waiting for a site visit. However, my impression was they are prepared to implement the 3 year curriculum for my incoming residency class this July (and I'm really hoping that's the case).
 
CRkid84 said:
From what I've heard, our program is in pre-accreditation but still waiting for a site visit. However, my impression was they are prepared to implement the 3 year curriculum for my incoming residency class this July (and I'm really hoping that's the case).
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I'm sure you are! Most students, when given the choice of 3 vs 4 years will pick 3. But I'm not sure how a program would be able to do that with their current residents, including those that are coming in, because you matched into an AOA spot that's accredited under the AOA rules, which specify EM to be a 4 year training program. Ive looked into this, since I think almost every AOA program will be looking to go to 3 years with the merger eventually, but I'm not sure how a program would be able to just switch from 4 to 3 with their current residents (including those that recently matched into an AOA spot). I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying I'd be VERY skeptical as a student if I was told that on the interview trail. If you are entering the AOA match, expect to go for 4 years. If you want to do 3 years, do the ACGME match. I don't think its going to work any other way in the near future for the next 3 years or so.

We were pre-accreditated early and had our site visit this summer. Our site visitor told us we were the first AOA EM program to get a site visit. We are still waiting for our RRC report, which we've been told we'd likely get in the next month. It's taken a ton of time, so if your program hasn't had a site visit, its unlikely it'll get worked out by July 1.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
but I'm not sure how a program would be able to just switch from 4 to 3 with their current residents (including those that recently matched into an AOA spot).
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I have read on some ACGME EM threads about programs that have switched from 4 to 3 year programs. Basically is sounds like one class gets to be the last "4" year residents and will graduate residency with the next "3" year residents that comes in after them. Im pretty sure it was an Emory EM thread where I read about it. It would really suck to be in that last 4 year class.
 
MADNEMO said:
I have read on some ACGME EM threads about programs that have switched from 4 to 3 year programs. Basically is sounds like one class gets to be the last "4" year residents and will graduate residency with the next "3" year residents that comes in after them. Im pretty sure it was an Emory EM thread where I read about it. It would really suck to be in that last 4 year class.
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Yes, you can do that with ACGME spots but not AOA spots. ACGME residencies in EM can be 3 or 4 years. AOA accreditted spots can only be 4 years as there is no 3 year option under the AOA. AOA will no longer be accrediting spots in 2020, and after that all matched spots will fall under ACGME. Until then though, AOA programs that get accreditation through the ACGME will be duelly accredited by both the AOA and the ACGME. Which means that if you are matching at an AOA accreditted program via the AOA match, it will be for 4 years, not 3. But if you match at the same program in the ACGME match, it has the potential to be 3 years depending on how the program chooses to structure their ACGME curriculum.

Currently there are many duelly accredditted residencies, that participate in both matches; this is nothing new. The students that match in the AOA match have 4 year residencies. The students that match in the ACGME match (DO or MD) match into a 3 or 4 year residency, depending on if the program wants to be a 3 year or a 4 year program. Many duelly acreditted programs remain 4 years for the ACGME spots that way all of their residents that match in the two matches are on the same track. Not all do though, as there are programs that are 4 years for the people that match in the AOA match and 3 years for the people in the ACGME match.
 
MADNEMO said:
I have read on some ACGME EM threads about programs that have switched from 4 to 3 year programs. Basically is sounds like one class gets to be the last "4" year residents and will graduate residency with the next "3" year residents that comes in after them. Im pretty sure it was an Emory EM thread where I read about it. It would really suck to be in that last 4 year class.
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University of Mississippi medical center recently did this last year I think.
 
Botsford doesn't rank everyone that interviews so maybe they just got too picky and didn't make a long enough rank list
 
RXingEM said:
Botsford doesn't rank everyone that interviews so maybe they just got too picky and didn't make a long enough rank list
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Surprised to see unmatched spots with EM being more and more competitive. I could see York Memorial though, just because its a small program and I'm sure there are concerns about them gaining acgme accredidation strictly because of their size. I'm not familiar with the other programs enough though. Still, with so many EM interested students, I'm surprised there were open spots.

As program leadership, I can tell you, not matching your spots has got to be one of the biggest fears. As 6 per class program, I don't think we've gone below #30 ever, but we traditionally interview 80 or so candidates and rank about 70. We don't even want to take a chance of not matching. We'll probably even interview more candidates once the merger/combined match happens, because of the uncertainty of how we are going to do competitively as a new ACGME program.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Surprised to see unmatched spots with EM being more and more competitive. I could see York Memorial though, just because its a small program and I'm sure there are concerns about them gaining acgme accredidation strictly because of their size. I'm not familiar with the other programs enough though. Still, with so many EM interested students, I'm surprised there were open spots.

As program leadership, I can tell you, not matching your spots has got to be one of the biggest fears. As 6 per class program, I don't think we've gone below #30 ever, but we traditionally interview 80 or so candidates and rank about 70. We don't even want to take a chance of not matching. We'll probably even interview more candidates once the merger/combined match happens, because of the uncertainty of how we are going to do competitively as a new ACGME program.
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gamerEMdoc, I am a current 3rd year looking at DO programs. I had a few questions.

1.Will the programs that intend to apply in 2016 or have already applied be matching students in the AOA match or ACGME?

2. What is the date that these programs need to hear by before they let students know if they will be AOA or ACGME?

3. My impression was that if programs were not accredited for this upcoming year they could not take students because they would not be able to guarantee the residency would be there in 4 years aka 2021. Is that true?
 
Programs need to be pre-accredited (ie. fill out an application for accreditation) in order to keep the doors open. Once pre-accredited, they will eventually then get an accreditation site visit. Eventually, after this site visit, programs will be granted temporary accreditation (or given things to fix prior to getting temporary status) which is accreditation for 2 years. After 2 years, they get another site visit for full accreditation.

Once temporary accreditation is obtained, programs can match students in either match. AOA or ACGME. This is similar to how duelly accredited programs match now. Match via the AOA match and you're spot is under the AOA rules, including the 4 year nature of the program. Match in the ACGME match, and you'll be under the ACGME side of things, meaning the program could be 3 or four years.

Im not sure there is a date they have to know by. They'd obviously have to know by when they submit their rank list.

Most programs applied for pre-accreditation this past year. I'm assuming most had their initial site visit for temporary accreditation, although I'm sure more within the next year as well. It takes a long time. We had ours this summer and were told we were the first EM program to get a site visit. We are still waiting for feedback from the RRC. This doesn't happen quickly.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Programs need to be pre-accredited (ie. fill out an application for accreditation) in order to keep the doors open. Once pre-accredited, they will eventually then get an accreditation site visit. Eventually, after this site visit, programs will be granted temporary accreditation (or given things to fix prior to getting temporary status) which is accreditation for 2 years. After 2 years, they get another site visit for full accreditation.

Once temporary accreditation is obtained, programs can match students in either match. AOA or ACGME. This is similar to how duelly accredited programs match now. Match via the AOA match and you're spot is under the AOA rules, including the 4 year nature of the program. Match in the ACGME match, and you'll be under the ACGME side of things, meaning the program could be 3 or four years.

Im not sure there is a date they have to know by. They'd obviously have to know by when they submit their rank list.

Most programs applied for pre-accreditation this past year. I'm assuming most had their initial site visit for temporary accreditation, although I'm sure more within the next year as well. It takes a long time. We had ours this summer and were told we were the first EM program to get a site visit. We are still waiting for feedback from the RRC. This doesn't happen quickly.
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Thanks for the quick response. So do these programs have to match ACGME spots? Or could they practically stay how they are now and match only AOA spots?
 
OSUguy17 said:
Thanks for the quick response. So do these programs have to match ACGME spots? Or could they practically stay how they are now and match only AOA spots?
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I'm not sure anyone has a definite answer, but I'm pretty sure they can continue to match 100% AOA spots until 2020, when the AOA no longer accredits. After that, it'll depend on whether there is only one match or two. While most assume there will only be one match, the ACGME clearly has said they don't control the NMS/NRMP, and that the merger doesn't automatically mean there will be a single match. There probably will be, but in theory, its possible two matches could still exist.
 
Recently got our feedback from the RRC regarding the initial accredidation from their site visit. Only minimum simple fixes recomended, huge relief to know we were already doing everything right!!!!

We sent them a list of questions to try and clarify how the 4 to 3 year transition will work, along with the match. I'll relay any info I get back if its useful. Stay tuned...
 
If possible, we may go to an all 3 year/acgme program next year for our next class. Still trying to find out if this is even still possible, as my guess is if we do this, we won't be able to participate in the AOA(NMS) match. Im still figuring any spots matched via the NMS match will be 4 year spots, and we just want to standardize each class, not have a mix of 4 and 3 in the same year. We want to still be as osteopathic friendly as possible, as this is the majority of our rotating students. I just fear that we'll lose students who chose to "play it safe" and still do the AOA match instead of the ACGME match, even though they'd almost certainly match with our program in the ACGME match should they enter. Going to be a stressful transition, thats for sure.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
If possible, we may go to an all 3 year/acgme program next year for our next class. Still trying to find out if this is even still possible, as my guess is if we do this, we won't be able to participate in the AOA(NMS) match. Im still figuring any spots matched via the NMS match will be 4 year spots, and we just want to standardize each class, not have a mix of 4 and 3 in the same year. We want to still be as osteopathic friendly as possible, as this is the majority of our rotating students. I just fear that we'll lose students who chose to "play it safe" and still do the AOA match instead of the ACGME match, even though they'd almost certainly match with our program in the ACGME match should they enter. Going to be a stressful transition, thats for sure.
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Having been on this forum for many years I have to say you're one of very few EM faculty who have posted such thorough information on here. Thank you for doing so! I hope that you will stick with it as your insight will be invaluable to many students in the years to come!
 
I matched to EM as well at my number one program. Could not be happier! Happy to help anyone who seeks EM in the future with advice. This forum has always been instrumental in my success through medical school and now through the match. Just PM me.
 
CopToEM said:
I matched to EM as well at my number one program. Could not be happier! Happy to help anyone who seeks EM in the future with advice. This forum has always been instrumental in my success through medical school and now through the match. Just PM me.
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Thanks for the kind words above. Just trying to pay it forward and help anyone out I can. I've gotten an overwhelmingly positive response on this forum and tons of messages from students that I'm helping out.

Just out of curiosity, where did you match, because I have a feeling you actually may have matched at my program. Would be a small world...
 
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I'm a 3rd year student from an average D.O. school and a non-traditional student in her 40s... I have PhD in Biochem c/ several publications in top-tire journals. I scored 600+ on COMLEX 1 and 230+ on USMLE 1. One of my advisers told me that my graduate education/ academic background may be seen as "unfit for EM" by some PDs. If there are any PDs out there, I'd like to hear your take on what my adviser has said. Any advice on how to "sell" myself without coming out "too cerebral"? Thanks!
 
pdwbohms said:
I'm a 3rd year student from an average D.O. school and a non-traditional student in her 40s... I have PhD in Biochem c/ several publications in top-tire journals. I scored 600+ on COMLEX 1 and 230+ on USMLE 1. One of my advisers told me that my graduate education/ academic background may be seen as "unfit for EM" by some PDs. If there are any PDs out there, I'd like to hear your take on what my adviser has said. Any advice on how to "sell" myself without coming out "too cerebral"? Thanks!
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I don't think it will hurt your application at all. A bunch of bench research might not help you either, but it won't hurt your application.
 
Interesting unexpected info and clarification from ACGME today... once accreditted on July 1 assuming final approval from RRC, the incoming class from the AOA match may actually be eligible to be three years instead of four even though they matched via the AOA/NMS match. I honestly didn't think this would be possible, but good news for those that recently matched. After that, all future classes would be 3 years, but would have to match via the ACGME match as far as I can tell. When asked about still participating the in the AOA match, ACGME stated they didn't know how that could work and still remain 3 years (since AOA is 4 years). This is all assuming the program intends on being a 3 year ACGME program instead of a four year program, which most are expected to change to 3 years.

This could have big implications this year. With many of the big osteopathic residencies vying for ACGME accredidation this year, then that would mean many will be going to an all 3 year program and no longer participating in the AOA match. Obviously, if and when that happens, as soon as this year, it would seem that there will be less and less AOA spots to match into. These programs will likely remain very osteopathic friendly, but the avenue to match there will change from the AOA match to the ACGME match, and I know that's going to make a lot of students nervous.

Students are going to have to be VERY VERY savvy this year and grill the places they are rotating at about their match plans. I'm planning on being very up front with students coming through this year to let them know which match we are planning on participating in (likely ACGME if all goes well). This years group of students is going to have some big decisions to make. After this year though, I think the vast majority of the programs will be ACGME, and there is a good possibility the NMS match quickly dies off. Path to a single match may happen sooner that I thought.

All of this info is in flux. There were many questions the RRC just couldn't answer because they didn't know how everything was going to workout with the 4 to 3 transition, the two matches, etc. So take all this for what its worth. Just wanted to update everyone as best as I can.

Please understand that some of this info seems to change by the day. I'll try and keep people updated as things become clearer. The ACGME RRC meets in April I think to grant accreditation, and then things will become much clearer on how things will proceed, so by the time the current 3rd years start their AIs at places with newly granted accreditation, I'm hoping more and more of these questions are answered and clarified.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Interesting unexpected info and clarification from ACGME today... once accreditted on July 1 assuming final approval from RRC, the incoming class from the AOA match may actually be eligible to be three years instead of four even though they matched via the AOA/NMS match. I honestly didn't think this would be possible, but good news for those that recently matched. After that, all future classes would be 3 years, but would have to match via the ACGME match as far as I can tell. When asked about still participating the in the AOA match, ACGME stated they didn't know how that could work and still remain 3 years (since AOA is 4 years). This is all assuming the program intends on being a 3 year ACGME program instead of a four year program, which most are expected to change to 3 years.

This could have big implications this year. With many of the big osteopathic residencies vying for ACGME accredidation this year, then that would mean many will be going to an all 3 year program and no longer participating in the AOA match. Obviously, if and when that happens, as soon as this year, it would seem that there will be less and less AOA spots to match into. These programs will likely remain very osteopathic friendly, but the avenue to match there will change from the AOA match to the ACGME match, and I know that's going to make a lot of students nervous.

Students are going to have to be VERY VERY savvy this year and grill the places they are rotating at about their match plans. I'm planning on being very up front with students coming through this year to let them know which match we are planning on participating in (likely ACGME if all goes well). This years group of students is going to have some big decisions to make. After this year though, I think the vast majority of the programs will be ACGME, and there is a good possibility the NMS match quickly dies off. Path to a single match may happen sooner that I thought.

All of this info is in flux. There were many questions the RRC just couldn't answer because they didn't know how everything was going to workout with the 4 to 3 transition, the two matches, etc. So take all this for what its worth. Just wanted to update everyone as best as I can.

Please understand that some of this info seems to change by the day. I'll try and keep people updated as things become clearer. The ACGME RRC meets in April I think to grant accreditation, and then things will become much clearer on how things will proceed, so by the time the current 3rd years start their AIs at places with newly granted accreditation, I'm hoping more and more of these questions are answered and clarified.
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Is there a place where this information is published?
 
MADNEMO said:
Is there a place where this information is published?
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Nope, which is why there is so much confusion, hearsay, and anxiety amongst everyone in the process. My understanding of the single accreditation process changes all the time because we get pieces of info from different people, sometime its conflicting. Its very frustrating.
 
pdwbohms said:
I'm a 3rd year student from an average D.O. school and a non-traditional student in her 40s... I have PhD in Biochem c/ several publications in top-tire journals. I scored 600+ on COMLEX 1 and 230+ on USMLE 1. One of my advisers told me that my graduate education/ academic background may be seen as "unfit for EM" by some PDs. If there are any PDs out there, I'd like to hear your take on what my adviser has said. Any advice on how to "sell" myself without coming out "too cerebral"? Thanks!
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i'm not sure if it's seen as unfit for em.. but sometimes overqualification could hurt.. do as many rotations as you possible can in em and get sloes or lors to show that you're a doer not a thinker
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Interesting unexpected info and clarification from ACGME today... once accreditted on July 1 assuming final approval from RRC, the incoming class from the AOA match may actually be eligible to be three years instead of four even though they matched via the AOA/NMS match. I honestly didn't think this would be possible, but good news for those that recently matched. After that, all future classes would be 3 years, but would have to match via the ACGME match as far as I can tell. When asked about still participating the in the AOA match, ACGME stated they didn't know how that could work and still remain 3 years (since AOA is 4 years). This is all assuming the program intends on being a 3 year ACGME program instead of a four year program, which most are expected to change to 3 years.

This could have big implications this year. With many of the big osteopathic residencies vying for ACGME accredidation this year, then that would mean many will be going to an all 3 year program and no longer participating in the AOA match. Obviously, if and when that happens, as soon as this year, it would seem that there will be less and less AOA spots to match into. These programs will likely remain very osteopathic friendly, but the avenue to match there will change from the AOA match to the ACGME match, and I know that's going to make a lot of students nervous.

Students are going to have to be VERY VERY savvy this year and grill the places they are rotating at about their match plans. I'm planning on being very up front with students coming through this year to let them know which match we are planning on participating in (likely ACGME if all goes well). This years group of students is going to have some big decisions to make. After this year though, I think the vast majority of the programs will be ACGME, and there is a good possibility the NMS match quickly dies off. Path to a single match may happen sooner that I thought.

All of this info is in flux. There were many questions the RRC just couldn't answer because they didn't know how everything was going to workout with the 4 to 3 transition, the two matches, etc. So take all this for what its worth. Just wanted to update everyone as best as I can.

Please understand that some of this info seems to change by the day. I'll try and keep people updated as things become clearer. The ACGME RRC meets in April I think to grant accreditation, and then things will become much clearer on how things will proceed, so by the time the current 3rd years start their AIs at places with newly granted accreditation, I'm hoping more and more of these questions are answered and clarified.
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When you say after this year are you talking about the class that just matched or this next upcoming match class?
 
OSUguy17 said:
When you say after this year are you talking about the class that just matched or this next upcoming match class?
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The class that just matched via the AOA match, starting here in July 2016 will be a 3 year ACGME residency according to verbal confirmation from someone high up in the RRC. That's assuming the RRC grants temporary accreditation (all AOA programs granted accreditation will be temporary accreditation for 2 years, with full accreditation after another site visit in 2 years) when they meet in April, which I see no reason why they wouldn't given their feedback they gave us recently from our site visit earlier in the year.

Obviously, this is verbal confirmation, nothing in writing, nothing published on the ACGME website. So please, take this for what its worth. My own opinion on if this was even possible has changed over just the last few weeks. There is just so little information available, and when you ask questions to the AOA or ACGME, we get alot of "I'll have to check..." or "We're not sure how that will work..." answers. So until we have something written and are preceding forward, I wouldn't completely bank on anything you here from anyone for 100% certainty.

But I can tell you, assuming the ACGME RRC accredits all the programs that applied in April for July 1, I think you are going to see a ton of programs switch to a 3 year program and only stick to the ACGME match. At least thats the word I've heard from several attendings who've talked to other attendings at other programs, who know other attendings, etc. Again, its all hearsay, I could be COMPLETELY wrong on this, but I don't think I will be, or I wouldn't be telling you all this. The general word on the ground is, since we're all going to be forced to go the ACGME route anyway, and since most are going the route of a 3 year anyway, there is no reason to wait a few more years if we can do it now. The programs that don't switch early will be left behind. Its always better to be the trailblazer!
 
So this means this year fall we will be competing with MDs for AOA EM spots?
 
Pisiform said:
So this means this year fall we will be competing with MDs for AOA EM spots?
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Yes and no. Allopathic students can't enter the AOA match. So if you match via the AOA match, then you are only competing with DO students. The issue is, I foresee many programs forgoing the AOA match once they get accredidation, and just going ACGME. Because that would allow them to quickly switch to a 3 year program, which just keeps them competitive in the match. So, that means less spots available in the AOA match. And if you want to match at some of the better current AOA programs, I suspect many of them will be ACGME only soon.

But really, even in the ACGME match, if you are looking at the prior-AOA programs that will be new to the ACGME match, I don't think you'll be competing with alot of MD students, not for the first few years. My program has had one allopathic med student rotate with us in the past 4 years. All of the prior AOA programs will be on temporary ACGME accreditation as new programs. All of our prior recruitment was DOs. Many of our faculty are DOs. Our med school affiliation is with a DO school. We'll be going from being a top tier DO residency that usually matches extremely well to a complete unknown in the ACGME world. So to think that all of a sudden we're going to start just overlooking DO graduates and start matching high level MD students isn't realistic.

Our plan remains unchanged. Recruit the best DO students we can get. We know that's our niche, thats the world we are a known program in. If we have allopathic graduates who are local, sure, maybe we match one here and there just because they are from the area. But I doubt we'll be flooded with MD applicants and then all of a sudden just start matching all MDs.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
But I can tell you, assuming the ACGME RRC accredits all the programs that applied in April for July 1, I think you are going to see a ton of programs switch to a 3 year program and only stick to the ACGME match. At least thats the word I've heard from several attendings who've talked to other attendings at other programs, who know other attendings, etc. Again, its all hearsay, I could be COMPLETELY wrong on this, but I don't think I will be, or I wouldn't be telling you all this. The general word on the ground is, since we're all going to be forced to go the ACGME route anyway, and since most are going the route of a 3 year anyway, there is no reason to wait a few more years if we can do it now. The programs that don't switch early will be left behind. Its always better to be the trailblazer!
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There are many different layers to this. I would caution students against placing too much weight on the AOA->ACGME merger. I agree with asking for a clear plan of action from the programs you interview with but it should be lower on your list of factors than say your SO's opportunities/family ties, location...

I know our program has no plans to go to a three year program. We do have plans to go ACGME asap but like the above we still plan to take DO's, likely through aoa match while it exists. Factors in residency length: acgme requires 4 peds rotations min, the research requirement will take some time, are rotations 4 weeks or by calendar month, PTO during off service rotations vs during home EM rotations, how many electives, how much PTO, etc
 
Hey everybody..been lurking for a bit and haven't been around SDN for a while so created a new account. I'm a 3rd year northeast DO student with 570s COMLEX Level 1, no Step 1 but taking Step 2 this summer. Slightly above average 1st and 2nd year student (1 honored block) and so far 1 honored rotation, the rest have been Ps (no high pass at my school). Add some decent ECs including EM related organizations, membership, scribe in an ED before school and 1 non-EM research project but no publications.

I'm planning on doing my home AOA rotation then doing VSAS for a dual accredited and ACGME rotation. All 3 will give SLOEs (assuming VSAS works out) but no other LORs at this time (maybe one non-EM faculty working). I'm planning on applying for AOA and ACGME and decide which match to go for based on Step 2 scores, # of interviews, auditions etc. Just wondering what a good number of applications would be come ERAS time. I've heard people say 30-90 and thats just a huge range. Was aiming for 40-50 but that feels too low now after reading some things on here. Don't know if theres a real question in there just being a neurotic med student. Thanks for any insight!
 
Nyrgiant1994 said:
Hey everybody..been lurking for a bit and haven't been around SDN for a while so created a new account. I'm a 3rd year northeast DO student with 570s COMLEX Level 1, no Step 1 but taking Step 2 this summer. Slightly above average 1st and 2nd year student (1 honored block) and so far 1 honored rotation, the rest have been Ps (no high pass at my school). Add some decent ECs including EM related organizations, membership, scribe in an ED before school and 1 non-EM research project but no publications.

I'm planning on doing my home AOA rotation then doing VSAS for a dual accredited and ACGME rotation. All 3 will give SLOEs (assuming VSAS works out) but no other LORs at this time (maybe one non-EM faculty working). I'm planning on applying for AOA and ACGME and decide which match to go for based on Step 2 scores, # of interviews, auditions etc. Just wondering what a good number of applications would be come ERAS time. I've heard people say 30-90 and thats just a huge range. Was aiming for 40-50 but that feels too low now after reading some things on here. Don't know if theres a real question in there just being a neurotic med student. Thanks for any insight!
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Without a Step 1 score you are going to have a tough time applying to most ACGME programs. If you look at the ROL thread this year a lot of DOs did well for themselves in terms of number of interviews with middle of the road USMLE step scores for EM because they had put themselves on the same playing field as their MD colleagues. I think you should try to take Step 2 but unless you take it early it will be tough to know how competitive you will be on the ACGME side. This makes harder to know how to schedule your electives. I think its getting tougher to apply on both sides because ACGME programs really only value SLOEs from other ACGME programs and AOA programs place a high value on applicants rotating at their own programs. It puts DO students in a difficult bind. Anecdotally, I know of a person who did this same thing this year with excellent COMLEX scores who did only 2 AOA aways and 2 ACGME aways and went unmatched on the AOA side. That being said I think with your scores and ECs you would have a great chance in the AOA match! Good luck
Edit: Take this with a grain of salt from someone who's still a MS4!
 
Bucks901 said:
Without a Step 1 score you are going to have a tough time applying to most ACGME programs. If you look at the ROL thread this year a lot of DOs did well for themselves in terms of number of interviews with middle of the road USMLE step scores for EM because they had put themselves on the same playing field as their MD colleagues. I think you should try to take Step 2 but unless you take it early it will be tough to know how competitive you will be on the ACGME side. This makes harder to know how to schedule your electives. I think its getting tougher to apply on both sides because ACGME programs really only value SLOEs from other ACGME programs and AOA programs place a high value on applicants rotating at their own programs. It puts DO students in a difficult bind. Anecdotally, I know of a person who did this same thing this year with excellent COMLEX scores who did only 2 AOA aways and 2 ACGME aways and went unmatched on the AOA side. That being said I think with your scores and ECs you would have a great chance in the AOA match! Good luck
Edit: Take this with a grain of salt from someone who's still a MS4!
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Thanks for the reply and dose of honesty! Part of me wants to wait and see what the success is for DO students in the ACGME match before setting up all AOA rotations because I've heard some DO students getting 12+ interviews with similar stats and no Step 1 but that doesn't necessarily stand to be a successful match because that 12+=95-97% chance to match is data for MD students. This kind of puts me in a place where I'll be pushing the timetable for setting up rotations around mid-March.
I have kept seeing this, "if you don't rotate at our program then why take you?" But with a limited number of spots for electives and even more programs that can't be possibly rotated at it seems backwards for PDs to do that (doesn't mean its not true though). Also if anyone can comment to my previous post keeping in mind I don't really desire some huge academic program just somewhere with high volume and decent exposure to trauma and I'm fairly flexible on location. I will be taking Step 2 in the beginning of July so scores will be back by mid-August. Also, whats the "ROL" thread? Thanks again!
 
12 interviews for independent applicants is also right around 95% match rate


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gamerEMdoc said:
The class that just matched via the AOA match, starting here in July 2016 will be a 3 year ACGME residency according to verbal confirmation from someone high up in the RRC. That's assuming the RRC grants temporary accreditation (all AOA programs granted accreditation will be temporary accreditation for 2 years, with full accreditation after another site visit in 2 years) when they meet in April, which I see no reason why they wouldn't given their feedback they gave us recently from our site visit earlier in the year.

Obviously, this is verbal confirmation, nothing in writing, nothing published on the ACGME website. So please, take this for what its worth. My own opinion on if this was even possible has changed over just the last few weeks. There is just so little information available, and when you ask questions to the AOA or ACGME, we get alot of "I'll have to check..." or "We're not sure how that will work..." answers. So until we have something written and are preceding forward, I wouldn't completely bank on anything you here from anyone for 100% certainty.

But I can tell you, assuming the ACGME RRC accredits all the programs that applied in April for July 1, I think you are going to see a ton of programs switch to a 3 year program and only stick to the ACGME match. At least thats the word I've heard from several attendings who've talked to other attendings at other programs, who know other attendings, etc. Again, its all hearsay, I could be COMPLETELY wrong on this, but I don't think I will be, or I wouldn't be telling you all this. The general word on the ground is, since we're all going to be forced to go the ACGME route anyway, and since most are going the route of a 3 year anyway, there is no reason to wait a few more years if we can do it now. The programs that don't switch early will be left behind. Its always better to be the trailblazer!
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Oh man I would be kind of annoyed if the program I matched into became 3 years after the match. Thankfully I checked with them beforehand that they were staying 4 years. Believe it or not there are some students who want a 4 year program. Too many people say 3 years doesn't feel like enough time. Personally in the end I would rather be the over prepared attending than the underprepared one..or maybe I'm just trying to prolong going out into the real world as long as possible. The only reason I never even tried for acgme residencies was because I liked the 4 years that the AOA gave.
 
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RXingEM said:
Oh man I would be kind of annoyed if the program I matched into became 3 years after the match. Thankfully I checked with them beforehand that they were staying 4 years. Believe it or not there are some students who want a 4 year program. Too many people say 3 years doesn't feel like enough time. Personally in the end I would rather be the over prepared attending than the underprepared one..or maybe I'm just trying to prolong going out into the real world as long as possible. The only reason I never even tried for acgme residencies was because I liked the 4 years that the AOA gave.
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You may say that now, but wait until you are midway through your third year, moonlighting, and you feel ready. And then you realize you basically leave several hundred thousand dollars on the table by staying another year.

In the end there isn't anything wrong with a fourth year. And if you did a 3rd year and you wanted more time to delay, you could do a fellowship in something. Having done a 3 year program myself, and having been faculty at a 4 year program, I can say if I were to do it all over again myself, I'd do 3 years again. I was ready by 3 years, hell I could have gotten by after two years. Its just way too much money to just leave on the table in the end. Peoples loans are so big these days, that extra year you spend in residency basically could have gone to paying off most of your student loans in one year.

We also reached out to our entire match class before applying for the 3 year curriculum to see if this would be a problem for anyone. We had no intention of upsetting anyone's plans, so if we would have gotten any negative feedback from any of the match class, we would have just delayed the switch to the next year. Everyone seemed pretty happy about it.
 
For those of you DO students who applied ACGME would you guys advise a below average-average applicant to use 1 early away rotation at a lesser competitive midwest program to get a SLOE so when applying to midwest programs it wouldn't look like im just randomly applying w/o having any connection to that area OR use that early rotation spot to rotate at a mid-top tier reach program at a highly desirable location and get a SLOE from there?
 
Whiteshoes said:
For those of you DO students who applied ACGME would you guys advise a below average-average applicant to use 1 early away rotation at a lesser competitive midwest program to get a SLOE so when applying to midwest programs it wouldn't look like im just randomly applying w/o having any connection to that area OR use that early rotation spot to rotate at a mid-top tier reach program at a highly desirable location and get a SLOE from there?
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This is hard to answer without knowing more about yourself as an applicant and what programs you are referring to but I'll bite. For reference I don't go to school near the midwest, however, I did a rotation in the midwest at a solid program, got a SLOE from said program and I think it helped me immensely to get interviews in the area. I think this goes a long way to show other programs that you are actually interested in a geographical location outside of where your home school is located. This is especially helpful for DO students because midwestern programs in cities like Detroit, Chicago, etc. tend to have more DOs in their programs and therefore getting an excellent SLOE from such a program could increase your chance of getting interviews and matching in the area. If the reach program you are considering is in a city like LA or San Diego for example, where even excellent DO applicants struggle to match, I think you need to evaluate if doing such a rotation is worth missing out on the facetime you would get at a program where you may have a great shot. This is even more important if you are a below avg candidate and have below avg board scores.
 
Happy Doctor's Day to all the future EM docs out there.

Just wanted to extend my offer for advice regarding a future EM career, auditions, SLOEs, application, the merger, or any other questions/concerns any student may have. Tons have contacted me already and its been fun and rewarding trying to give back and help people through this whole process in a pretty uncertain time regarding the future of AOA EM programs.

Audition season is right around the corner. Rest up and let the games begin!
 
gamerEMdoc said:
ACGME RRC meets for EM the next 3 days (4/21-23). Fate of many Osteopathic EM programs will be determined soon. Stay tuned...
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I'm expecting it to be pretty bad. Another EM residency is shutting down as we speak.


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Makati2008 said:
I'm expecting it to be pretty bad. Another EM residency is shutting down as we speak.


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Can you say which one? No worries if you need to keep it quiet for now.
 
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