OT: Taxes

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I think it's safe to say that Trump is not as adherent to tax laws than you are.
 
BenJammin said:
Why do I pay so much in taxes? My tax rate is 32% yet President Trump can make millions and have a lower tax rate than me. I don't even live in a state with income tax!
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My last paycheck I made a little over 9k and after taxes and 401k and health I walked away with 5k. But who is going to feed those poor suckers?
 

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BenJammin said:
Why do I pay so much in taxes? My tax rate is 32% yet President Trump can make millions and have a lower tax rate than me. I don't even live in a state with income tax!
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SS and medicare plus federal. I am also in no income tax state and have same prob, better than Cali I guess. This is a principle reason I am looking into other income streams/independent ownership/retiring abroad.
 
BenJammin said:
Why do I pay so much in taxes? My tax rate is 32% yet President Trump can make millions and have a lower tax rate than me. I don't even live in a state with income tax!
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You understand little about taxes and tax breaks etc. Owning a business offers huge tax incentive breaks. Making all of your income from W-2 job and barely being above the FICA wage limit means you lose 7.5% to FICA, someone making millions pays in the same amount to FICA as you or I (with exception of the medicare tax increase on those making above x amount as part of obamacare). So at 125k 7.5% of your income goes to FICA, at 500k this works out to about 1.9% of your income (not including obamacare tax which is measly). Also if you own your own business you can shelter 53 k in a SEP401k, much better then the 18k we can (plus whatever company match).


I've concluded those making low to mid 6 figures are typically hit the hardest by taxes. Typically those making >500k are making it through various means and not just a straight salary. Some of their salary will be stock options etc. or they run the company and thus can write off a lot of expenses such as company car etc.
 
Make sure your W-4 allowances are set correctly so they don't withhold too much in taxes leading to you getting a massive refund. The baseline W-4 is 2 allowances for a single person who takes the standard deduction. Then federal taxes should be around 20% + 6.2% SS + 1.45% Medicare = 27.65%.

I'm trying to move away from salary which gets taxed at that rate with SS and Medicare, and trying to get more of my income from investments which can get the long-term capital gains tax rate of 15%, no SS/Medicare, or you can use a tax sheltered account like an IRA or tax free Roth.

[edit] it's actually 19.8% for 2 allowances, not 21%
 
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Ordinary income versus income from interest, dividends, and investments. Much higher rate for ordinary income.


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My income is 100% from wages but my overall federal + SSI + medicare net taxes was 13.8% (and another ~3% from state). So being a working stiff isn't all that bad if you itemize a lot and have a family to support. And I lost a lot of tax credits because my income was too high otherwise I could have dropped my net tax rate further.
 
^ does your wife work? Do you have a million mouths to feed?

Not everyone wants a big family you know. Not every spouse wants to stay at home.

There is this thing called alternative minimum tax. Once you hit a certain point, things like state tax are no longer deductible so you end up paying a lot of taxes regardless.


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Paid 4.5k in amt. Meh I should've worked less. Not like I need it that bad, being greedy that is...
 
There is no secret to reducing your tax liability:

- max 401 k
- max HSA
- get marry (makes sure she doesn't work)
- have tons of kids
- buy health insurance from your employer
- get a mortgage
- increase your federal withholding to 2
- start a business and lose money
- donate money to a non-profit (i.e. church)

What else?

Make money from other sources like investing, rental properties.


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capital gains tax vs wages
 
The point of my post is that you can wind up paying moderate taxes from wages alone if you take advantage of the deductions offered.

Of course, you should also invest but remember (if you have a choice) there are critical differences between wages and investing. Investing in the stock market or real estate risks the funds you invested in whereas working extra hours does not. And most people involved in real estate would say there is quite a bit of sweat equity required too. Just keep an open mind and realize working for an extra dollar but losing 30-40% to taxes still leaves you ahead of working an hour of sweat equity for nothing and your investment goes nowhere or worse loses money.
 
pezdispenser said:
Make sure your W-4 allowances are set correctly so they don't withhold too much in taxes leading to you getting a massive refund. The baseline W-4 is 2 allowances for a single person who takes the standard deduction. Then federal taxes should be around 21% + 6.2% SS + 1.45% Medicare = 28.65%.

I'm trying to move away from salary which gets taxed at that rate with SS and Medicare, and trying to get more of my income from investments which can get the long-term capital gains tax rate of 15%, no SS/Medicare, or you can use a tax sheltered account like an IRA or tax free Roth.
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Wasn't there a thread in the past with advice on filling out W-4? Advice on filling it out would be appreciated!
 
BMBiology said:
There is no secret to reducing your tax liability:

- max 401 k
- max HSA
- get marry (makes sure she doesn't work)
- have tons of kids
- buy health insurance from your employer
- get a mortgage
- increase your federal withholding to 2
- start a business and lose money
- donate money to a non-profit (i.e. church)

What else?

Make money from other sources like investing, rental properties.


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Click to expand...
buy a rental property and take advantage of write-offs and depreciation

max out FSA
 
Monsterdaddy said:
The point of my post is that you can wind up paying moderate taxes from wages alone if you take advantage of the deductions offered.

Of course, you should also invest but remember (if you have a choice) there are critical differences between wages and investing. Investing in the stock market or real estate risks the funds you invested in whereas working extra hours does not. And most people involved in real estate would say there is quite a bit of sweat equity required too. Just keep an open mind and realize working for an extra dollar but losing 30-40% to taxes still leaves you ahead of working an hour of sweat equity for nothing and your investment goes nowhere or worse loses money.
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Yeah but your "deductions" are having a wife who doesn't work and having a big family. That is not something most people can take "advantage" of.

Yeah you are going to end up paying less tax but your household spending power is obviously a lot less than a couple who both work and who only have one kid.


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BMBiology said:
Yeah but your "deductions" are having a wife who doesn't work and having a big family. That is not something most people can take "advantage" of.
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Really??? Most people can't marry and/or have children??? LOL! Wait, are you also assuming people can't buy houses either?!

As an FYI, everyone can use itemized deductions starting with buying a home (or two). Buying a home with as little down as possible is a leveraged play but one the tax laws favor. Being able to itemize enables other deductions such state income or sales taxes, property tax on vehicles and boats, and donations. Check out TurboTax's "It's Deductible" tool which makes valuing non-cash donations a breeze (you'd be surprised the values it assigns and the IRS accepts). And in Arizona, there are almost $4800 in cash donations eligible for a 100% tax credit -- so the donations costs you nothing but enables you to deduct on the Federal return (and $4800 is a $1200 increased Federal refund at the 25% tax bracket). Check your state for favorable tax credits.
 
Monsterdaddy said:
Really??? Most people can't marry and/or have children??? LOL! Wait, are you also assuming people can't buy houses either?!

As an FYI, everyone can use itemized deductions starting with buying a home (or two). Buying a home with as little down as possible is a leveraged play but one the tax laws favor. Being able to itemize enables other deductions such state income or sales taxes, property tax on vehicles and boats, and donations. Check out TurboTax's "It's Deductible" tool which makes valuing non-cash donations a breeze (you'd be surprised the values it assigns and the IRS accepts). And in Arizona, there are almost $4800 in cash donations eligible for a 100% tax credit -- so the donations costs you nothing but enables you to deduct on the Federal return (and $4800 is a $1200 increased Federal refund at the 25% tax bracket). Check your state for favorable tax credits.
Click to expand...

Again, your effective tax rate is only 13.8% because of two main reasons:

(1) your wife does not work
(2) you have 5 kids

Am I wrong? Show us how you got 13.8%.


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Ha, like I would give you my personal information. Since you are a lost cause I'll just demonstrate to others how to look at it:

For Social Security, say I made $258,000 gross and I had $4,000 in pretax deductions and $18,000 in 401(k) leaving net income of $236,000. Half of which, $118,000 is subject to social security of 6.2% and all $236,000 is subject to Medicare of 1.45% for effective tax rate of 4.2% on gross income before Federal taxes.

Assume the full $236,000 is AGI. Now we look at personal and itemized deductions:

5 kids plus wife is 6 personal exemptions or a $24,300 deduction.
Mortgage and real estate taxes on two houses (principal residence and vacation home), donations, sales tax and property tax deductions add another $60,000.

Taxable income is $151,700 and tax is therefore ~$29,500 or 11.4% of gross income and a combined social security plus federal of 15.6% on gross income.

Now if I was single, then I would lose the $24,300 personal exemption and use the singles tax table. Nothing else changes. I calculate a combined tax of 20.6%, much higher but not horrible on gross income of $258,000.

So folks, don't look at your withholding and take home pay, you have to look at the final taxes you pay on your 1040. The current tax code gives a huge incentive for 401(k) and homeownership and that means expensive homes (pick homes with good appreciation potential).

And heck yeah, why not marry someone who wants to stay at home and raise kids.
 
BenJammin said:
Why do I pay so much in taxes? My tax rate is 32% yet President Trump can make millions and have a lower tax rate than me. I don't even live in a state with income tax!
Click to expand...
Hey Ben, if you earned $120,000 gross with zero deductions and are single I calculate the max social + federal of 27.4%. I can't get you as high as 32%. Are you looking at your marginal tax rate?

Just running more numbers, if you had $2,000 in pretax deductions plus $18,000 in 401(k) I calculate the total tax on gross to be only 21.5%
 
Monsterdaddy said:
Ha, like I would give you my personal information. Since you are a lost cause I'll just demonstrate to others how to look at it:

For Social Security, say I made $258,000 gross and I had $4,000 in pretax deductions and $18,000 in 401(k) leaving net income of $236,000. Half of which, $118,000 is subject to social security of 6.2% and all $236,000 is subject to Medicare of 1.45% for effective tax rate of 4.2% on gross income before Federal taxes.

Assume the full $236,000 is AGI. Now we look at personal and itemized deductions:

5 kids plus wife is 6 personal exemptions or a $24,300 deduction.
Mortgage and real estate taxes on two houses (principal residence and vacation home), donations, sales tax and property tax deductions add another $60,000.

Taxable income is $151,700 and tax is therefore ~$29,500 or 11.4% of gross income and a combined social security plus federal of 15.6% on gross income.

Now if I was single, then I would lose the $24,300 personal exemption and use the singles tax table. Nothing else changes. I calculate a combined tax of 20.6%, much higher but not horrible on gross income of $258,000.

So folks, don't look at your withholding and take home pay, you have to look at the final taxes you pay on your 1040. The current tax code gives a huge incentive for 401(k) and homeownership and that means expensive homes (pick homes with good appreciation potential).

And heck yeah, why not marry someone who wants to stay at home and raise kids.
Click to expand...

Come on now. $258 k in salary and own 2 houses? Let's not make up numbers just to proof a point.

Your calculation is not even correct because you would have been hit with the alternative minimum tax (ATM) if you are single. This is when you make a lot of money so you can no longer deduct certain things like property tax, state income tax, etc. Furthermore, you can only deduct mortgage interest rate from a max of $500 k mortgage (for singles). So there goes your property deductions and state income tax deductions.

5 kids plus a wife give you $24 k in deduction. Your wife doesn't work which further lowered your tax liability. That is your secret sauce and you know it.


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I will make it simple, just to show you how much having 5 kids and having a wife who doesn't work would lower your tax liability.

Let's say you made $138 k and you contribute $18 k to your 401 k (no other tax deductions). Therefore, your taxable income is $138 k - $18 k = $120 k:

Single (no kids):

ImageUploadedBySDN1489661007.511433.jpg


Married (5 kids, wife doesn't work):

ImageUploadedBySDN1489661035.920453.jpg


Do you see that? You went from paying $24 k in federal income tax to just paying $7 k.

So your effective tax rate went from 17.4% ($24 k/$138 k) to just 5% ($7 k/$138 k).

Now if you have other tax deductions like mortgage interest rate, you can literally pay no federal income tax on a $138 k salary when you have 5 kids and your wife doesn't work.


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Gross Income $ 115,163.25
Health+Dental $ (2,649.12)
Retirement Contributions $ (7,651.15)
Ohio State Tax $ (2,977.00)
Local Income Tax $ (2,816.04)
Federal Income Tax $ (10,374.00)
FICA Taxes $ (8,656.14)

Net Pay 2016 $ 80,039.80


BMBio is totally right by the way, SAHM is the secret sauce. I know, because I have one. Staying in the 15% taxable bracket is sweet. Then the SS bennies at retirement are even better. 1 becomes 1.5.
 
BMB, you're just brain dead dude. No helping ya.
 
Monsterdaddy said:
BMB, you're just brain dead dude. No helping ya.
Click to expand...

That's funny you say that because I'm your examples you literally stated contributing to a 401k bypassed FICA taxes which it doesn't. You pay fica taxes on your gross income. 401k is exempt from both federal and state taxes but not FICA. Of course in your example it doesn't matter since the income is well above fica limits. It does matter for the average pharmacist tho.


On top of that you say you calculate a max federal plus fica of 27.4% for the other poster but completely forget state taxes which literally all but I believe 6 states charge. In addition to the income taxes are sales taxes, license taxes/fees , and property taxes . Although the latter is typically deductible you still lose money taxwisw
 
I get to do my taxes this weekend...guess I need to stock up on tissues now.

As for those that advocate rental properties to help lower your taxes, it is true but let me tell you a little story... Two months ago I finally evicted a tenant after 3 months of non-payment, this is after paying numerous fees to the court system and endless waiting. The constable finally came out to throw out the freeloaders and we had discovered that the tenant had let her dog and 2 cats defecate and urinate all over the carpet in retaliation, (the constable threw the tenant out and GTFOed due to the smell). In addition to completely destroying all carpets in the house, the tenant splashed oil and paint on the walls which had just been professionally painted less than six months ago at a cost of $3000. New carpet and paint for the house cost $3250 and it took about 1 month for the smell to dissipate enough to put the house back on the market. Finally getting a tenant to sign a lease for the house starting April 1st (old tenant was evicted Feb 9th) we found out that the city needed to do an inspection of the house even though one had been done about 8 months prior. Luckily the repairs they require will only cost us an additional $400 mostly due to a hairline crack in one of the windows that is on the outer pane of double-pane glass. Rental properties can be profitable, but often they can be a real PITA so don't be so quick to think they are an easy way to save a bunch of money on your taxes.
 
Dr Wario said:
I get to do my taxes this weekend...guess I need to stock up on tissues now.

As for those that advocate rental properties to help lower your taxes, it is true but let me tell you a little story... Two months ago I finally evicted a tenant after 3 months of non-payment, this is after paying numerous fees to the court system and endless waiting. The constable finally came out to throw out the freeloaders and we had discovered that the tenant had let her dog and 2 cats defecate and urinate all over the carpet in retaliation, (the constable threw the tenant out and GTFOed due to the smell). In addition to completely destroying all carpets in the house, the tenant splashed oil and paint on the walls which had just been professionally painted less than six months ago at a cost of $3000. New carpet and paint for the house cost $3250 and it took about 1 month for the smell to dissipate enough to put the house back on the market. Finally getting a tenant to sign a lease for the house starting April 1st (old tenant was evicted Feb 9th) we found out that the city needed to do an inspection of the house even though one had been done about 8 months prior. Luckily the repairs they require will only cost us an additional $400 mostly due to a hairline crack in one of the windows that is on the outer pane of double-pane glass. Rental properties can be profitable, but often they can be a real PITA so don't be so quick to think they are an easy way to save a bunch of money on your taxes.
Click to expand...

How did they pass interview/screen. Is there a prop.manager? Also if I am to start rental business, no cats-non negotiable. they have a penchant for ruining carpet
 
rxdawg21 said:
That's funny you say that because I'm your examples you literally stated contributing to a 401k bypassed FICA taxes which it doesn't. You pay fica taxes on your gross income. 401k is exempt from both federal and state taxes but not FICA. Of course in your example it doesn't matter since the income is well above fica limits. It does matter for the average pharmacist tho.

On top of that you say you calculate a max federal plus fica of 27.4% for the other poster but completely forget state taxes which literally all but I believe 6 states charge. In addition to the income taxes are sales taxes, license taxes/fees , and property taxes . Although the latter is typically deductible you still lose money taxwisw
Click to expand...
Yes, I misspoke on FICA and 401(k). Thanks for the correction. As for the state taxes, the OP stated that he is not subject to state taxes which is why all my examples excluded state tax.
 
Monsterdaddy said:
Yes, I misspoke on FICA and 401(k). Thanks for the correction. As for the state taxes, the OP stated that he is not subject to state taxes which is why all my examples excluded state tax.
Click to expand...

Touche! I missed that part lol
 
Dr Wario said:
I get to do my taxes this weekend...guess I need to stock up on tissues now.

As for those that advocate rental properties to help lower your taxes, it is true but let me tell you a little story... Two months ago I finally evicted a tenant after 3 months of non-payment, this is after paying numerous fees to the court system and endless waiting. The constable finally came out to throw out the freeloaders and we had discovered that the tenant had let her dog and 2 cats defecate and urinate all over the carpet in retaliation, (the constable threw the tenant out and GTFOed due to the smell). In addition to completely destroying all carpets in the house, the tenant splashed oil and paint on the walls which had just been professionally painted less than six months ago at a cost of $3000. New carpet and paint for the house cost $3250 and it took about 1 month for the smell to dissipate enough to put the house back on the market. Finally getting a tenant to sign a lease for the house starting April 1st (old tenant was evicted Feb 9th) we found out that the city needed to do an inspection of the house even though one had been done about 8 months prior. Luckily the repairs they require will only cost us an additional $400 mostly due to a hairline crack in one of the windows that is on the outer pane of double-pane glass. Rental properties can be profitable, but often they can be a real PITA so don't be so quick to think they are an easy way to save a bunch of money on your taxes.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that, but thanks for sharing your story. My parents also had to evict their very first tenant and it wasn't even as bad as yours, but I have stayed away from investing in rental properties ever since. I don't want to have to deal with the headaches. Fortunately, the alternative which is to invest in the stock market has been very good to me.
 
quickpic007 said:
How did they pass interview/screen. Is there a prop.manager? Also if I am to start rental business, no cats-non negotiable. they have a penchant for ruining carpet
Click to expand...

The person passed the interviewers (ie my dad and I) but we did get a double security deposit and a pet deposit from her. Honestly we were debating if we should replace the carpet even before she moved in so that really was not a huge loss just really annoying and gross. I don't want to deter people from rental property, I have done quite well on them and this is the first time I have actually had to fully evict a person, but to those that think they are easy, please understand what you are getting in to.
 
Quick question. Why would any landlord allow a tenant to have any pets? It just seems not worth the trouble. Does it make it hard to find someone to rent to? When I was looking at places I always asked about pets not because I had one but I didn't want to live somewhere that had previous pets. I've thought about a dog but I think I'd rather find a rental building that's completely pet free. We'll see.


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trailerpark said:
Quick question. Why would any landlord allow a tenant to have any pets? It just seems not worth the trouble. Does it make it hard to find someone to rent to? When I was looking at places I always asked about pets not because I had one but I didn't want to live somewhere that had previous pets. I've thought about a dog but I think I'd rather find a rental building that's completely pet free. We'll see.
Click to expand...

It's hard enough finding a tenant that a)passes the credit score b)has no red flags on the background check and c) doesn't come off as a potential serial killer. Excluding pets is just an unnecessary hurdle for a landlord.
 
Dr Wario said:
I get to do my taxes this weekend...guess I need to stock up on tissues now.

As for those that advocate rental properties to help lower your taxes, it is true but let me tell you a little story... Two months ago I finally evicted a tenant after 3 months of non-payment, this is after paying numerous fees to the court system and endless waiting. The constable finally came out to throw out the freeloaders and we had discovered that the tenant had let her dog and 2 cats defecate and urinate all over the carpet in retaliation, (the constable threw the tenant out and GTFOed due to the smell). In addition to completely destroying all carpets in the house, the tenant splashed oil and paint on the walls which had just been professionally painted less than six months ago at a cost of $3000. New carpet and paint for the house cost $3250 and it took about 1 month for the smell to dissipate enough to put the house back on the market. Finally getting a tenant to sign a lease for the house starting April 1st (old tenant was evicted Feb 9th) we found out that the city needed to do an inspection of the house even though one had been done about 8 months prior. Luckily the repairs they require will only cost us an additional $400 mostly due to a hairline crack in one of the windows that is on the outer pane of double-pane glass. Rental properties can be profitable, but often they can be a real PITA so don't be so quick to think they are an easy way to save a bunch of money on your taxes.
Click to expand...
What did you do that trigger an inspection for your property?
 
trailerpark said:
Quick question. Why would any landlord allow a tenant to have any pets? It just seems not worth the trouble. Does it make it hard to find someone to rent to? When I was looking at places I always asked about pets not because I had one but I didn't want to live somewhere that had previous pets. I've thought about a dog but I think I'd rather find a rental building that's completely pet free. We'll see.


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Click to expand...

No pets does limit your potential candidate pool but makes your life much easier. I typically have good intuition about people and do fairly extensive screening, but of course some do get by. Overall, I would say that you can generally charge more for the same property if you allow pets, but you will have more upkeep and hassle so it is prettymuch a wash.
 
Momus said:
What did you do that trigger an inspection for your property?
Click to expand...

Put a for rent sign up. Typically inspections are supposed to last for 4 years in my area, but the previous inspection was done while the house was not vacant so only a "safety" inspection was done instead of full interior inspection. Honestly the inspector didn't fail anything that petty (except a shower head that was slightly leaking into the shower) so not that big of a deal.
 
Worked part-time. effective tax rate based on turbo tax is 11.47%
 
32k in federal taxes off an AGI (does not include 401k or health ins) of 152k = effective tax rate 21%.

This is as bad as it gets because I'm single and only have the standard deduction, but I'm still ok with it because:
- I paid $0 state income tax
- $0 mortgage interest or payments
- $0 student loans
 
pezdispenser said:
32k in federal taxes off an AGI (does not include 401k or health ins) of 152k = effective tax rate 21%.

This is as bad as it gets because I'm single and only have the standard deduction, but I'm still ok with it because:
- I paid $0 state income tax
- $0 mortgage interest or payments
- $0 student loans
Click to expand...

Good then I'm not the only one getting screwed. These 11-12% people have me jealous. I'm @ 21.04%. But no dependents and not a homeowner yet so I guess that's big.
 
anon5666 said:
Good then I'm not the only one getting screwed. These 11-12% people have me jealous. I'm @ 21.04%. But no dependents and not a homeowner yet so I guess that's big.
Click to expand...
You get 10-15% with no job spouse easily with a bunch of kids, or if as a single your mortgage interest is high + property tax AND you don't make that much, I. E sub 150k... If u make a lot your deduction doesn't matter, AMT kicks in (I paid $4.5k last yr), and a bunch of your deduction are disallowed (state tax, property tax, misc deduction). Then, your effective tax rate will be 20%+
 
30k federal, 10k state, 7.5k FICA. I still owe 2k in federal and state tax.

Oh well. It's better than being unemployed
 
Feel as though I'm doing something wrong with my tax rate is over 31%... no dependents, no kids however

29k Federal
7350 Social security
2k Medicare
5k State
650 School district
1700 City
-------
45,770 Total

Got $2300 back on my return
 
Prepharm1214 said:
Feel as though I'm doing something wrong with my tax rate is over 31%... no dependents, no kids however

29k Federal
7350 Social security
2k Medicare
5k State
650 School district
1700 City
-------
45,770 Total

Got $2300 back on my return
Click to expand...
Know the difference between effective tax rate for fed, effective tax rate for state and tax bracket for each. You don't know the difference between these and how to calculate them. Mine never goes past 22% effective tax rate fed (max 401k 18k) with income above 200k+ in 2011 even with 0 deduction.
 
Okay just did my taxes, I have some weird stuff going on so not sure how applicable it will be to everyone else. I'll post details shortly.


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