Our Residencies are full of Cheaters

[senpai]

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I know that no one in our field wants to talk much about this but I think it is a pretty big issue that affects not only our field, but medicine, etc. as well. To me it is concerning how rampant cheating is and how it has almost become a requirement to get in to residency programs. Everyone has personal experience with this issue by either being involved in it or an observer. To be in the top 10%, yes you have to study your butt off, but it also helps attaining unreleased and old exam materials that aren't available to the rest of the class. The "remembered questions" game and attaining of unrealeased exams for the NBDE Part I causes huge inflation in scores.
Are admissions committees really that ignorant to be impressed by the person who got the 99 from yes, studying hard, but also the 50 pages of remembered questions he/she got from his/her buddies over the one who worked super hard and just got a 90?
I know the Joint Commission has realized these issues and came up with some resolutions that do nothing to address the problem at all.
There will always be admissions exams whether it be th GRE, the NBME, or something else, and as long as they continue with the system of using the same set of exams or question bank throughout the year with the ability to take it at your leisure, these games will never end.
Same thing goes with individual schools. As long as professors re-use the same exams/questions year after year, the games will never change.
Although cheating is NEVER justified, I put the majority of the blame on the Joint Commission and the individual schools for creating an environment conducive to success by means of cheating.
I also don't believe that it is just those specializing involved with this, it's all the way up and down nor do I believe that everyone who is in residency has been involved with this, just thought I'd make a catchy thread name 😉

 

[UNLV OMS GUNNABE]

There are also plenty of people who study hard, don't cheat and get >95 on their boards.

 

[godless]

You know it's funny - I can't see why someone would bother studying a massive test bank, when you know that the professor is only going to pick a small fraction of the questions. It's more useful in the long run to do what you're supposed to do and just do the freakin' work.

 

[gryffindor]

ISame thing goes with individual schools. As long as professors re-use the same exams/questions year after year, the games will never change.

LOL, reminds me of first year Biochemistry. Everyone had access to about 20 years worth of final exams. Questions repeated word for word, year after year. People went into the exam confident that this was going to be a 10 minute bubble sheet exercise. Dental students in the upper classes said this biochem final was the least of your worries. On exam day, sure enough, questions appeared to be repeating but if you read them closely, they weren't quite word for word. The old man had changed just one word or phrase in many of the questions and unless you actually knew your biochemistry, you had no way of deducing the answer. I think half the class failed and some sort of bonus was applied so the majority passed but boy were people sweating and swearing off the test banks.

 

[WannaBeDentist]

I agree 100%. It's one thing to share personal notes for classes among peers. But this doesn't apply when it comes to exams and "remembered questions" and "unreleased exams" etc.

 

[7mag]

To me these kinds of posts are always made by those that get a 90 and are bitter about it...there are many people that don't look at old questions and still get 99's

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

When studying for NBDE Part I, I spent numerous hours on the released old exams. I liked taking the exams because I could use them to study and test myself. Most questions were a very similar question (there's only so many ways to ask), but every once in a while, you got an identical question and answer selections. I don't think I cheated. Do you?

If you say it's ok because they were released, that's not really the point at hand. I had seen that previous question before I was tested on the knowledge. So technically, I had cheated, correct?

Obviously, I believe remembered specific questions are cheating, but at the same time, older questions that help study for a topic that will be tested are up for debate. It's an ethical dilemma that could be debated for years. It's definitely not everyone is a cheater though.

 

[senpai]

To me these kinds of posts are always made by those that get a 90 and are bitter about it...there are many people that don't look at old questions and still get 99's

I spent a about a 9 months studying, knew my sh**, and got a 95. I have 2 classmates who spent about 3 weeks studying, knew nothing, but memorized all the questions from that year and got the same score. See the difference?
The issue isn't about "old questions" if they are released, the issue is "unreleased" questions from that same year the individual is taking the exam.
And yes, of course I am bitter about the situation I described, not because I scored lower than I had wished.

 

[EJsDad]

I spent a about a 9 months studying, knew my sh**, and got a 95. I have 2 classmates who spent about 3 weeks studying, knew nothing, but memorized all the questions from that year and got the same score. See the difference?
The issue isn't about "old questions" if they are released, the issue is "unreleased" questions from that same year the individual is taking the exam.
And yes, of course I am bitter about the situation I described, not because I scored lower than I had wished.

I can't speak for the boards, but do any of you feel like your program sometimes makes things ridiculously easy? I can list a number of people at my school that I would NEVER allow to work on me or anyone I know, yet they are passing classes and will likely graduate. I was speaking with one of our faculty members who was a foreign trained dentist, so he studied outside the states, then had to go back when he came to America. He said that American dental schools are "soft" and take it too easy on us.....do any of you feel this is true? I may just be jaded because it seems like there shouldn't be an abundantly large amount of people in a class on the top end of the bell curve, they need to make it more difficult so those who work their *ss off can get rewarded.

 

[live]

I agree with 7mag. Yes people cheat, they always have and always will. However, they must live with knowing how they got where they are. That said, PLENTY of people study their A** off just like you and get 95-99. Just forget about how people get the scores they get because if you aren't going to do anything about it (turn them in or whatever) then your just stressing yourself out about something you can't change. Plus, I don't know what you are wanting to do but the fact that you actually learned the material will make a difference, I feel like it has with me. I'm not saying I don't understand your frustration, because I do, but I've just learned to let it go and be happy knowing I did it with hard work! Good luck to ya

 

[ortho lurker]

National boards are becoming P/F. Why be stressing?

 

[senpai]

National boards are becoming P/F. Why be stressing?

Not stressing, merely initiating a discussion with the initial intention of highlighting if how our dental schools, specialty programs, and the Joint Comission, etc. are administering exams and Board exams is optimal for evaluating acceptance in to residence and competency in general. I feel with the Boards going P/F that the discussion is timely and relevant. All I am advocating is for reform as to how exams which have an effect on residency acceptance and demonstrating competency are administered and written.
The majority of the comments thus far can be summarized as:
"Yes, this is an issue, but there are many people who don't cheat, so we can look the other way and you should too."
The boards are going P/F, yes, but if you have kept up with the discussion there WILL be other exams in its place for purposes of residency acceptace, i.e. GRE (which is already used for many residencies), NBME, adding ~100 questions or so to the boards for to be scored while the rest is P/F, etc., etc. If we follow the same methods and procedures as before, we will run in to the same problems.
I am of the opinion that this is a big enough issue to warrant discussion, that now is the time for evaluation of previous methods, reform, and application of new policy, and that this issue could easily be resolved by doing so.

 

[senpai]

There are also plenty of people who study hard, don't cheat and get >95 on their boards.

This is coming from "UNLV OMS Gunnabe: cheat commando" as your profile states lol

 

[mike3kgt]

Not stressing, merely initiating a discussion with the initial intention of highlighting if how our dental schools, specialty programs, and the Joint Comission, etc. are administering exams and Board exams is optimal for evaluating acceptance in to residence and competency in general. I feel with the Boards going P/F that the discussion is timely and relevant. All I am advocating is for reform as to how exams which have an effect on residency acceptance and demonstrating competency are administered and written.
The majority of the comments thus far can be summarized as:
"Yes, this is an issue, but there are many people who don't cheat, so we can look the other way and you should too."
The boards are going P/F, yes, but if you have kept up with the discussion there WILL be other exams in its place for purposes of residency acceptace, i.e. GRE (which is already used for many residencies), NBME, adding ~100 questions or so to the boards for to be scored while the rest is P/F, etc., etc. If we follow the same methods and procedures as before, we will run in to the same problems.
I am of the opinion that this is a big enough issue to warrant discussion, that now is the time for evaluation of previous methods, reform, and application of new policy, and that this issue could easily be resolved by doing so.

Let me guess... you voted for Obama right?

 

[sarah_bellum]

This is coming from "UNLV OMS Gunnabe: cheat commando" as your profile states lol

http://www.homestarrunner.com/cheatcommando.html

 

[achilles2]

Don't worry op I'm sure since you have ALWAYS busted ***** and been the best there is you have in addition to your board scores:

1) top of the class because you are an allstar
2) tons of leadership positions
3) loved by your faculty because you are such a top notch guy/girl so you will get elite LOR's

be serious you act like 99's are given out like hotcakes HOW many people get 99's in the country??? Any PS if someone slams like a 97+ and isn't a top notch student you think residency programs are not going to raise some red flags and look a bit closer???

stop crying

 

[senpai]

Let me guess... you voted for Obama right?

How dare you. That is the most hurtful comment I have seen on this forum. I would never vote for the re-incarnation of Stalin nor support communism in the least degree...

I think I was right in my OP when I stated that "no one in our field wants to talk much about this..".

Again, my entire intention was to begin a discussion regarding the validity and administration procedures of exams in our field which play a major part in our residency selection criteria. Not sure why this is being so misunderstood. I have no concern for myself, I'm confident I'll get in to residency and be succesful, etc. I just felt that my situation illustrated a point that is an issue in our field. Trying to have a positive influence on dental school education and better the experience for future students/doctors is part of being a professional.

Whatever though...I've said enough...you people respond like I'm on crazy pills or something 😕

Rick Perry for President 👍

 

[ortho lurker]

Life is just not fair sometimes. Is it fair that a legacy classmate with lower stats got into a residency spot just because their parent donated big time? Of course not. Can you do anything to change that? Absolutely not.

 

[mike3kgt]

How dare you. That is the most hurtful comment I have seen on this forum.

Actually I thought it was pretty funny. I thought your words were far more hurtful when you claimed "Our Residencies are full of Cheaters." So I'm a resident, therefore I'm a cheater? How dare you. 👎

Many program directors seek residents who are hard workers, team players, and have good scores which further indicate they work hard and can handle post-graduate education. BTW, I can also assure you that program directors do whatever it takes to keep out whiners... which by your posts, you clearly are.

 

[senpai]

Actually I thought it was pretty funny. I thought your words were far more hurtful when you claimed "Our Residencies are full of Cheaters." So I'm a resident, therefore I'm a cheater? How dare you. 👎

Many program directors seek residents who are hard workers, team players, and have good scores which further indicate they work hard and can handle post-graduate education. BTW, I can also assure you that program directors do whatever it takes to keep out whiners... which by your posts, you clearly are.

The "how dare you" was a complete joke, bro. Sorry I forgot the smily face/tongue out/etc. after it to specifiy the sarcasm. Don't take it personally.

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

Actually I thought it was pretty funny. I thought your words were far more hurtful when you claimed "Our Residencies are full of Cheaters." So I'm a resident, therefore I'm a cheater? How dare you. 👎

Many program directors seek residents who are hard workers, team players, and have good scores which further indicate they work hard and can handle post-graduate education. BTW, I can also assure you that program directors do whatever it takes to keep out whiners... which by your posts, you clearly are.

👍

OP, make sure when you go on your externships and interviews, you start off by saying, "You and your residents are cheaters." At our program, you get the invite based on board scores above a certain #. Then, we don't even use scores anymore. We just try to find the difference between the d-bags and the guys who will work hard, not bitch, and fit in. You seem like the former. Good luck.

 

[Michael Scarn]

👍

OP, make sure when you go on your externships and interviews, you start off by saying, "You and your residents are cheaters." At our program, you get the invite based on board scores above a certain #. Then, we don't even use scores anymore. We just try to find the difference between the d-bags and the guys who will work hard, not bitch, and fit in. You seem like the latter. Good luck.

That's pretty silly. The OP is just sparking harmless discussion. What's the big deal people.

 

[gegogi]

I agree on OP. That's why gpa does not mean anything in dental school.

 

[GatorDDS]

👍

OP, make sure when you go on your externships and interviews, you start off by saying, "You and your residents are cheaters." At our program, you get the invite based on board scores above a certain #. Then, we don't even use scores anymore. We just try to find the difference between the d-bags and the guys who will work hard, not bitch, and fit in. You seem like the latter. Good luck.

i think you mean the former, not the latter

 

[GreatOMFSHope]

My bad. Good catch Tebow.

 

[pacificNW]

The OP was true for my school. I think you're also right that people don't want to talk about it / admit it to themselves. When there are test banks for everything, and instructors re-use exams, we have the problem you describe.

By bringing up the topic, you irritate those who don't want to admit what the situation is. You sound like my kind of person. Best of luck to you.

 

[omaralt]

forget cheating on the boards; thats rare IMO. whats not rare is the rampant cheating that goes on in dental school; from turning in others work as yours (to get preps/restorations checked off in lab)to about 30% of my class (that i know personally, probably much higher) that was routinely taking adderall

and honestly i dont really care as it was none of my business; i wouldnt turn somebody in for that. to each their own

PS: i voted for obama; did a mighty fine job cleaning up GW mess 🙂

 

[flapaTron]

forget cheating on the boards; thats rare IMO. whats not rare is the rampant cheating that goes on in dental school; from turning in others work as yours (to get preps/restorations checked off in lab)to about 30% of my class (that i know personally, probably much higher) that was routinely taking adderall

and honestly i dont really care as it was none of my business; i wouldnt turn somebody in for that. to each their own

PS: i voted for obama; did a mighty fine job cleaning up GW mess 🙂

the latter more so than the former. that's lame.

 

[GatorDDS]

forget cheating on the boards; thats rare IMO. whats not rare is the rampant cheating that goes on in dental school; from turning in others work as yours (to get preps/restorations checked off in lab)to about 30% of my class (that i know personally, probably much higher) that was routinely taking adderall

and honestly i dont really care as it was none of my business; i wouldnt turn somebody in for that. to each their own

PS: i voted for obama; did a mighty fine job cleaning up GW mess 🙂

thanks for getting us into this mess 👍👍👍

 

[omaralt]

thanks for getting us into this mess 👍👍👍

no i think you misunderstood; i didnt vote for bush...😀

 

[DREDAY]

There are also plenty of people who study hard, don't cheat and get >95 on their boards.

The year i took the boards was the first year of the "new format". The highest score nationally that year was a 95.... so it seems that without "remembered questions" it might be impossible to get above 95. At least that year they didnt.

 

[hot]

The year i took the boards was the first year of the "new format". The highest score nationally that year was a 95.... so it seems that without "remembered questions" it might be impossible to get above 95. At least that year they didnt.

or maybe that year they had a lot of dumb people taking the exam......... just sayin'

 

[Johnson22]

or maybe that year they had a lot of dumb people taking the exam......... just sayin'

Oh yeah...the entire country was just dumber that year...idiot

 

[UNLV OMS GUNNABE]

The year i took the boards was the first year of the "new format". The highest score nationally that year was a 95.... so it seems that without "remembered questions" it might be impossible to get above 95. At least that year they didnt.

I hate to burst your bubble but I didn't have any "remembered" questions or unreleased exams and I was >95...as were many others.

 

[DREDAY]

I hate to burst your bubble but I didn't have any "remembered" questions or unreleased exams and I was >95...as were many others.

You are not bursting my bubble... I could care less what you got. What I am saying is information that I received as a national dental student representative on a committee for the Joint Commission of National Dental Education.

And just so you know, cheating is a significant part of the reason the boards went p/np.

 

[hot]

You are not bursting my bubble... I could care less what you got. What I am saying is information that I received as a national dental student representative on a committee for the Joint Commission of National Dental Education.

And just so you know, cheating is a significant part of the reason the boards went p/np.

sounds like the Joint Commission should do a better job then. and just because they are p/np doesn't mean people will cheat. and also it is possible for a whole year to have lower scores due to other variables. perhaps they were poorly written questions especially since they were new? and just so you know, i have never heard of "remembered questions" anyway. my school is honest and makes a very big deal about not talking about anything that was on the examination as that is part of the ethics of being a healthcare professional. you kind of sound bitter in my book.

 

[hot]

I hate to burst your bubble but I didn't have any "remembered" questions or unreleased exams and I was >95...as were many others.

i liiiiiiiiiiiiikkkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeee 🙂

 

[DREDAY]

sounds like the Joint Commission should do a better job then. and just because they are p/np doesn't mean people will cheat. and also it is possible for a whole year to have lower scores due to other variables. perhaps they were poorly written questions especially since they were new? and just so you know, i have never heard of "remembered questions" anyway. my school is honest and makes a very big deal about not talking about anything that was on the examination as that is part of the ethics of being a healthcare professional. you kind of sound bitter in my book.

lol ok... comedy at its finest.

 

[reven]

Actually, I think it was just an error in statistics and curving. One of the 95's that year (assuming there was more than one) missed about 30 questions. Because every 10 questions for 2007 was worth about one point, theoretically a perfect (400/400) would have netted you a 98.

The following year (2008), after the "recalibration," the first 99's were getting -40 and -39. Roughly 2 questions per point. ie -42 = 98, -44 = 97. Very rough, as I believe I knew a -46 with a 97. Level of difficulty was still similar.

 

[hot]

lol ok... comedy at its finest.

i am a professional comedian actually... by night.
btw, did you invent hateraid?

 

[ibeflossin]

I do not think all residents are cheaters and I do not think that is fair to say. However I am more than aware that cheating is rampant in dental school. I believe in karma and believe those people that do cheat will not be rewarded in their lives. Just do the best you can, and do not worry about anyone else because in the end rank, board scores, GPA, etc. does not really matter. Sure it may get you an interview, but believe me I know of some people that did cheat and people found out and although they were #1 in their class with 95+ board scores, they did not match in ANY program. Integrity matters more and determines who will be successful in life. Administration knows more than you think, and they do talk. Just be a good person and good things will come your way 🙂

 

[rarm1]

I know that no one in our field wants to talk much about this but I think it is a pretty big issue that affects not only our field, but medicine, etc. as well. To me it is concerning how rampant cheating is and how it has almost become a requirement to get in to residency programs. Everyone has personal experience with this issue by either being involved in it or an observer. To be in the top 10%, yes you have to study your butt off, but it also helps attaining unreleased and old exam materials that aren't available to the rest of the class. The "remembered questions" game and attaining of unrealeased exams for the NBDE Part I causes huge inflation in scores.
Are admissions committees really that ignorant to be impressed by the person who got the 99 from yes, studying hard, but also the 50 pages of remembered questions he/she got from his/her buddies over the one who worked super hard and just got a 90?
I know the Joint Commission has realized these issues and came up with some resolutions that do nothing to address the problem at all.
There will always be admissions exams whether it be th GRE, the NBME, or something else, and as long as they continue with the system of using the same set of exams or question bank throughout the year with the ability to take it at your leisure, these games will never end.
Same thing goes with individual schools. As long as professors re-use the same exams/questions year after year, the games will never change.
Although cheating is NEVER justified, I put the majority of the blame on the Joint Commission and the individual schools for creating an environment conducive to success by means of cheating.
I also don't believe that it is just those specializing involved with this, it's all the way up and down nor do I believe that everyone who is in residency has been involved with this, just thought I'd make a catchy thread name 😉

Don't just blame the studemts. Many schools teach for the exam. Many schools time when there students take the exam to give them higher results. And there is cheating. Schools go about this, programs know about this. One reason for pass fail.
Programs look at grades/class standings/boards knowing the problems. They also look at the essay and recommendations (knowing you would only ask for good ones).

What the also do is look at the WHOLE person. What else you have done -volunteer/reseach/etc... and the interview... and calling faculty they know.

This is a lot of evaluation going on... not just scores.

 

[SFO]

IMO, the schools should just release the old exams for all the classes. That is the only way to have a truly level playing field & take the cheaters out of the equation.