Out of match offer

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Dermpath

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I need someone's advice please. Here's my situation: I applied for Derm but unfortunately did not match, so I am applying both to Derm again and a back-up specialty. I have been offered a spot for an out of match position, and they gave me some time to think about it and get back to them, but it's obviously prior to the match. My question is this-if I take the outside the match position, can I still go through the regular match and wait to see if I match in a Derm spot or no? Any thoughts on this?
 
If you sign the contract for the position, you are required to withdraw from the match.
 
If you sign the contract for the position, you are required to withdraw from the match.
What happens if you don't withdraw from the match?
 
I think the program you signed the contract with will report it to the match committee, and there will be an investigation of the matter which could result in your losing the residency spot. Or at least that's what I interpreted from the NRMP's legal mumbo-jumbo on their website:

I've signed a contract outside the Matching Program. What happens now?

Under the terms of the Match Participation Agreement, an independent applicant who accepts a concurrent year position outside the Matching Program or through another national matching service must withdraw from the Matching Program. Withdrawal must be completed prior to the rank order list deadline. Failure to do so is a violation of the Match Agreement, which will be investigated by the NRMP in accordance with the Policies and Procedures for the Reporting, Investigation, and Disposition of Violations of NRMP Agreements. Independent applicants who elect to participate in the match are prohibited from discussing, interviewing for, accepting a concurrent year position outside the Matching Program or through another national matching service after the rank order list deadline.
What is the process if I'm investigated for a violation of the Match Participation Agreement?

Subsequent to receiving a written report of an alleged violation, the NRMP will solicit information from the applicant and any other individuals with knowledge of the situation. A Preliminary Report that documents the nature of the allegation is prepared.
If the results of the investigation indicate that a violation has not occurred, the case will be closed and all parties will be so notified.
If the results of the investigation indicate a violation has occurred, the Preliminary Report will be distributed to the subject of the investigation, the individual who reported the violation, and any other parties who provided information material to the investigation for their review and to correct the additional information provided to the NRMP.
The Preliminary Report will be reviewed by a Review Panel of the NRMP's Violations Review Committee, which will make the final determination of whether a violation occurred and, if so, the appropriate penalty. A Review Panel Report will be issued to the subject of the violation, who will have ten business days to notify the NRMP of the intent to initiate arbitration. If the subject of the violation initiates arbitration, the NRMP will note in the Registration, Ranking, and Results (R3) System that the party is the subject of a "pending action". That designation will remain in place for the duration of the arbitration process. In addition, if the subject of the violation initiates arbitration, he/she has thirty days from receipt of the Review Panel Report to file with the American Arbitration Association. If the subject of the violation does not request arbitration within ten business days, the Review Panel Report will become the Final Report, and it will be issued to all parties listed on the Report. All Match registrants should review carefully The Policies and Procedures for the Reporting, Investigation, and Disposition of Violations of NRMP Agreements.
What does it mean in the R3 System when it states that an institution or program is the subject of "pending action"?

When a violation investigation of an institution or program results in an adverse decision and the adverse action is contested, the institution or program is designated with "pending action" in the R3 System. The designation remains in place until the institution or program has waived or exhausted the opportunity to contest the action pursuant to the Violations Policy. Once the Final Report of the investigation has been issued, the program will be listed on the Institution and Program Violations Report if the NRMP concluded that there was a breach of the Match Participation Agreement.
 
I think the program you signed the contract with will report it to the match committee, and there will be an investigation of the matter which could result in your losing the residency spot. Or at least that's what I interpreted from the NRMP's legal mumbo-jumbo on their website:

I've signed a contract outside the Matching Program. What happens now?

Under the terms of the Match Participation Agreement, an independent applicant who accepts a concurrent year position outside the Matching Program or through another national matching service must withdraw from the Matching Program. Withdrawal must be completed prior to the rank order list deadline. Failure to do so is a violation of the Match Agreement, which will be investigated by the NRMP in accordance with the Policies and Procedures for the Reporting, Investigation, and Disposition of Violations of NRMP Agreements. Independent applicants who elect to participate in the match are prohibited from discussing, interviewing for, accepting a concurrent year position outside the Matching Program or through another national matching service after the rank order list deadline.
What is the process if I'm investigated for a violation of the Match Participation Agreement?

Subsequent to receiving a written report of an alleged violation, the NRMP will solicit information from the applicant and any other individuals with knowledge of the situation. A Preliminary Report that documents the nature of the allegation is prepared.
If the results of the investigation indicate that a violation has not occurred, the case will be closed and all parties will be so notified.
If the results of the investigation indicate a violation has occurred, the Preliminary Report will be distributed to the subject of the investigation, the individual who reported the violation, and any other parties who provided information material to the investigation for their review and to correct the additional information provided to the NRMP.
The Preliminary Report will be reviewed by a Review Panel of the NRMP's Violations Review Committee, which will make the final determination of whether a violation occurred and, if so, the appropriate penalty. A Review Panel Report will be issued to the subject of the violation, who will have ten business days to notify the NRMP of the intent to initiate arbitration. If the subject of the violation initiates arbitration, the NRMP will note in the Registration, Ranking, and Results (R3) System that the party is the subject of a "pending action". That designation will remain in place for the duration of the arbitration process. In addition, if the subject of the violation initiates arbitration, he/she has thirty days from receipt of the Review Panel Report to file with the American Arbitration Association. If the subject of the violation does not request arbitration within ten business days, the Review Panel Report will become the Final Report, and it will be issued to all parties listed on the Report. All Match registrants should review carefully The Policies and Procedures for the Reporting, Investigation, and Disposition of Violations of NRMP Agreements.
What does it mean in the R3 System when it states that an institution or program is the subject of "pending action"?

When a violation investigation of an institution or program results in an adverse decision and the adverse action is contested, the institution or program is designated with "pending action" in the R3 System. The designation remains in place until the institution or program has waived or exhausted the opportunity to contest the action pursuant to the Violations Policy. Once the Final Report of the investigation has been issued, the program will be listed on the Institution and Program Violations Report if the NRMP concluded that there was a breach of the Match Participation Agreement.

Oh man, I think you might be right. I'm in a pickle then! Do I take the guarantee spot in a specialty which I'm definitely not crazy about but is a sure thing at a great program, or do I hold out until the match? (I can do that though right-I can interview for an outside the match spot while still being in the match, as long as I go with one or the other right?) What would you do if you were me? I know you don't know me or my situation, so I don't expect a "perfect" answer here, but thoughts might be helpful.
 
Oh man, I think you might be right. I'm in a pickle then! Do I take the guarantee spot in a specialty which I'm definitely not crazy about but is a sure thing at a great program, or do I hold out until the match? (I can do that though right-I can interview for an outside the match spot while still being in the match, as long as I go with one or the other right?) What would you do if you were me? I know you don't know me or my situation, so I don't expect a "perfect" answer here, but thoughts might be helpful.

Well...you have/are applying for a Derm position....so that leads me to beleieve your stats are on the better side of average. I don't know what your "back-up" specialty is, but it is most likely not as competitive as Derm. If you feel that you are a strong applicant for your "back-up" specialty, then I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel forced to take this "Sure thing" out of match offer.

Did you apply and get interviews to some of your back ups? If so, are you confident (relatively speaking) that you will match at one if you do not match at derm? If this is the case, you don't HAVE to sign this out of match offer. You can gamble to have a chance for Derm and if it doesn't work out again...then you will hopefully have matched into one of your back up spots....just my 2 cents
 
Just let them know you are still seriously interested in their program, but would like to stay in the match. Hopefully, if they are interested enough to offer you an out of match spot, they will also rank you highly in the match.
Good luck! :luck:
 
i dont know man...its a tough call. what are your chances for matching into a derm? In general, assuming youre not a US senior since you are inquiring about outside-the-match positions, I don't think your chances for matching into derm are that high...maybe 50-50 at best, depending on how many interviews you got. How many did you get? Did one of them say anything about being ranked to match? You could try calling the programs and asking them...
 
Well...you have/are applying for a Derm position....so that leads me to beleieve your stats are on the better side of average. I don't know what your "back-up" specialty is, but it is most likely not as competitive as Derm. If you feel that you are a strong applicant for your "back-up" specialty, then I wouldn't think that you'd have to feel forced to take this "Sure thing" out of match offer.

Did you apply and get interviews to some of your back ups? If so, are you confident (relatively speaking) that you will match at one if you do not match at derm? If this is the case, you don't HAVE to sign this out of match offer. You can gamble to have a chance for Derm and if it doesn't work out again...then you will hopefully have matched into one of your back up spots....just my 2 cents

Interesting take. Well I applied heavily for derm once again, but given how competitive it is, I don't know if I'll match and as much as I love derm, I can't continue applying for the next decade to come. I unfortunately did not apply to the backup specialty until later on in the process given that I was really torn about the issue, and although I have some interviews, I am not 100% confident that due to the late nature of my app, whether I'd match or not. So it's a tough spot to be in. How crazy/bad is the scramble? I mean I'd hate to lose out a good spot now and end up with anything, but on the other hand I'd hateto not match into my dream specialty. I guess I'll have to ponder this seriously.
 
i dont know man...its a tough call. what are your chances for matching into a derm? In general, assuming youre not a US senior since you are inquiring about outside-the-match positions, I don't think your chances for matching into derm are that high...maybe 50-50 at best, depending on how many interviews you got. How many did you get? Did one of them say anything about being ranked to match? You could try calling the programs and asking them...

This is true, but derm also have a 50/50 unmatch rate or so, and many people don't match the first time so I don't know if me not having matched the first time around is that big of a deal. But yes I don't know whether I'd be able to match this time. The thing is that I have also been offered a derm fellowship which also throws the monkey wrench into the whole thing. This sucks, i hate having to make these decisions!
 
This is true, but derm also have a 50/50 unmatch rate or so, and many people don't match the first time so I don't know if me not having matched the first time around is that big of a deal. But yes I don't know whether I'd be able to match this time. The thing is that I have also been offered a derm fellowship which also throws the monkey wrench into the whole thing. This sucks, i hate having to make these decisions!

how does that work? is it possible to do a fellowship without doing a derm residency?
 
how does that work? is it possible to do a fellowship without doing a derm residency?

Oh definitely yes. The goal of the fellowship is to get a derm residency-it's mostly research based. You can do fellowships after derm as well (mohs, peds, cosmetics).
 
Oh definitely yes. The goal of the fellowship is to get a derm residency-it's mostly research based. You can do fellowships after derm as well (mohs, peds, cosmetics).

if it is a paid position, then that sounds like a great option...and then im presuming it would make you even more competitive as an applicant if you apply to derm again later. but its completely your decision!
 
if it is a paid position, then that sounds like a great option...and then im presuming it would make you even more competitive as an applicant if you apply to derm again later. but its completely your decision!

Right, that's the goal-to become more competitive, and many programs take their fellows/help them get into a spot, but at the same time, some do not. So it's a hard situation. I mean if I go through this fellowship and then don't get into a derm residency, what are my options? How can I really convince a different specialty that I really want to do this or that? That's kind of my concern with this position.

If after a fellowship no position in derm can be obtained, then how do I go about doing something else?
 
i dont think that proving your interest will be much of a problem...there are lots of noncompetitive specialties out there...like FM, internal med, psych...theyre just looking for a hard workers. just do some shadowing with the above mentioned specialties to make your case. im also someone who has not matched in a competitive specialty who is now applying for less competitive ones...its not that bad.

the derm fellowship...can you wait until after the match to accept/ not accept? if yes, then theres your back up right there...just my two cents.
 
i dont think that proving your interest will be much of a problem...there are lots of noncompetitive specialties out there...like FM, internal med, psych...theyre just looking for a hard workers. just do some shadowing with the above mentioned specialties to make your case. im also someone who has not matched in a competitive specialty who is now applying for less competitive ones...its not that bad.

the derm fellowship...can you wait until after the match to accept/ not accept? if yes, then theres your back up right there...just my two cents.

I unfortunately have no interest in IM/FM, etc. I wish I did, it would be much easier to match!

I also want to post a question that kinda relates. Not sure if you have any experience with this and can chime in or if others can.

So on one of the latest interviews I went on, I noticed that one of my interviewers had a # written on my application. I do not know what this means. Is this for ranking purposes or what? Anyone know?
 
did you receive ANY interviews for derm. this time around? if so, then i would consider holding out for derm. if you don't match, do the fellowship and be ready to do a few years before matching.
 
did you receive ANY interviews for derm. this time around? if so, then i would consider holding out for derm. if you don't match, do the fellowship and be ready to do a few years before matching.

Yes I did, but I have had IVs in the past and did not match. If I don't match and do a fellowship, what do you think the chances of matching are afterwards? Clearly I can't change any of the "objective" things like grades/scores, etc. I can get pubs and new letters. Will that be enough you think or is it unrealistic?

I've even been re-interviewed by places I've interviewed at before. Since you are a resident, can you provide any insight as to why one candidate would be ranked higher than another? I have been told by a previous PD that "objective" criteria like USMLEs and grades don't hold much weight AFTER you've gotten an IV. Are there "right vs wrong" answers that can affect how one is ranked? I honestly don't have a clear understanding of this.

Just for clarification btw, the fellowship offers are in addition to the outside the match spot.

With all of this said, the 2 fellowships I have been offered have told me that all of their fellows have matched either at the institution of the fellowship or somewhere else. Do you think this is a safe venue or is it a bunch of goey? I don't quite know whether it means the program will take you if you can't match elsewhere or what.

I guess this is what is my main determinant as to whether I take this spot or not. Do I have a realistic chance of matching after a fellowship, or am I going to end up spotless ultimately and blow my shot at a decent program now?

The fellowship spots are different from the outside the match spot btw, and the outside the match spot is in a different specialty. Not sure if that was clear.
 
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Just curious, in what specialty is this out-of-the match position being offered? Do you think you have sufficient interest in the specialty to consider it?
 
Just curious, in what specialty is this out-of-the match position being offered? Do you think you have sufficient interest in the specialty to consider it?

Out of match spot is in Rads. To be honest Top Gun, if I don't match Derm this cycle, I will likely move on. I love derm but I can't wait forever. I definitely do have an interest in Rads, but I'm still holding on to the dream of derm at the same time. Like I mentioned, the fact that I have 2 fellowship offers is in part what's holding me back. Do I go out on a limb here and take a plunge and say hey-if I don't match, I can do a fellowship and potentially match? Or if I do a fellowship, what if I don't match and then I'm screwed? Since derm is not known for its warm fuzziness and giving people a shot, I might be screwed. I am having an awful difficult time with this.

I mean I have seen Rads spot open outside the match all the time, and there is always the scramble, but things might be more difficult. So I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooo confused about this!

Also I don't know if you would know this but, with the all in policy, can spots that appear unexpectedly during the year still be filled? That's my understanding but I'm not sure.
 
Also I don't know if you would know this but, with the all in policy, can spots that appear unexpectedly during the year still be filled? That's my understanding but I'm not sure.

There may be one or two residency spots for a given field remaining open after the scramble, but they usually fill up pretty fast, if that's what you mean. Also, if any spot does unexpectedly open during the year (i.e. a resident leaves, etc..), it also tends to fill pretty fast. So to have a chance at getting any of those spots, you really got to be on the ball. You have to jump on it pretty quick and make sure you're pretty competitive to have any shot at getting the position.
 
Yes I did, but I have had IVs in the past and did not match. If I don't match and do a fellowship, what do you think the chances of matching are afterwards? Clearly I can't change any of the "objective" things like grades/scores, etc. I can get pubs and new letters. Will that be enough you think or is it unrealistic?

I've even been re-interviewed by places I've interviewed at before. Since you are a resident, can you provide any insight as to why one candidate would be ranked higher than another? I have been told by a previous PD that "objective" criteria like USMLEs and grades don't hold much weight AFTER you've gotten an IV. Are there "right vs wrong" answers that can affect how one is ranked? I honestly don't have a clear understanding of this.

Just for clarification btw, the fellowship offers are in addition to the outside the match spot.

With all of this said, the 2 fellowships I have been offered have told me that all of their fellows have matched either at the institution of the fellowship or somewhere else. Do you think this is a safe venue or is it a bunch of goey? I don't quite know whether it means the program will take you if you can't match elsewhere or what.

I guess this is what is my main determinant as to whether I take this spot or not. Do I have a realistic chance of matching after a fellowship, or am I going to end up spotless ultimately and blow my shot at a decent program now?

The fellowship spots are different from the outside the match spot btw, and the outside the match spot is in a different specialty. Not sure if that was clear.

How many interviews for derm did you receive? How many at places you previously interviewed, and more importantly, how many NEW places? Did you get the interviews at places you previously interviewed because someone called? If so, then I would discount those.

If all fellows at a fellowship have matched, then that's a good thing. I would think it's a safe venue. It probably means that all fellows are strong enough after doing the fellowship that they all match somewhere. Just take the statistics for what they are.

When interviewing/ranking, what we look for is fit w/ the program. Really. If you said something that pissed me or someone else off, your'e getting thrown under the bus. I tanked 2 people because their attitudes seemed non-conducive to a good work environment. There were some people that EVERYONE liked and that had top scores on the interview questions -- those people got ranked highest.
 
I think it's unlikely that spots at "good" (i.e. decent training and nonmalignant) radiology programs open up very often. If you give up that spot, then you should assume you might have to do a different specialty, like path, internal medicine, etc. if you later fail at getting a derm residency.

If the derm fellowships you are talking about really have as high a rate as they claim @helping people get into derm some place, and you want to get into derm as badly as you seem to, then I think it's kind of a no-brainer that they should be your backup plan. However, will they wait until you see the results of the Match before they let you accept or decline the fellowship offer? Also, I tend to never believe what people tell me. I would tell them you are interested in the fellowship, but ask for the names of some past derm fellows from the past 2-3 years and their contact info, so you can prove those people actually got into derm.

I have no idea what your chance of getting into derm will be with the number of interviews you have. If you already tried once and didn't get it, I would say it may be <50%. It's just one of those ultra-competitive specialties. You should be able to guess based on statistics (how likely are applicants like you to match into derm?). Remember, statistics include not just board scores but also research experience, what school you went to, etc. Also if you don't have LOR's from people who are well connected, that will adversely affect you in competitive specialties. Remember for every person with high USMLE scores who matched into those competitive specialties, there are other people with high scores who didn't match.

The scramble is rough and don't expect that you will get a spot in a competitive position during the scramble. It sounds like your stats are good and you could probably scramble and get an IM prelim spot or something, if you just needed to spend a year somewhere. However, then if you try to apply to derm while an intern somewhere, I don't think you'll have much time to go on interviews.

I think your situation illustrates the problem with having a "backup" specialty that is also competitive. Rads is not really a backup type specialty b/c it's competitive also - not as much as derm, but it is competitive. If you really wanted to guarantee yourself a spot in the match, you should have applied to IM or surgery prelim spots too.

How hard is it to get a derm fellowship? Will you still be able to get one in April if you don't match into derm or rads?

How strong is the radiology program that offered you an out of Match spot? Usually programs that are really good don't do that - they can just get who they want through the Match....at least that's true for IM programs...perhaps I'm ill informed about radiology.
 
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