Out-of-state to EVERY state !!!

[The Rookie]

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I am a 42-year old, married dad with 4 kids (10, 7, 6, 4) who is trying to get into med school to become a general pediatrician.

Years ago (1995), I left Texas to move to Canada for employment purposes. Now I wish to return to the U.S. for medical school. (I like the U.S. primary care model for pediatricians better than the Canadian specialist model.) However, as a result of being out of the U.S. for so long, I am out of state to EVERY state. (I have checked with Texas about residency requirements and they confirm that this is true; however, individual schools in Texas can take into account my previous residency in Texas and degrees from Texas.)

What are my chances applying out of state/private in the U.S.? What do you think of my list of schools?

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My stats:

1980-83: BS, Chem. Eng., CWRU (Overall 3.51, BCPM 3.68)

1987-91: MS, Chem. Eng., Texas A&M (Overall ~3.7) ***
1991-02: M. Eng, Mech. Eng., Texas A&M (Overall ~4.0) ***

2002-05: BSc, Bio/Psych, U. Calgary (Overall 3.80, BCPM 3.73)

*** Note I worked at least part-time during all of my graduate years
(that's why their sooo... long)

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UG Average = (Overall 3.66, BCPM 3.71)

MCAT: 31L (10V, 10B, 11P, L)

EC: Sunday school teacher, Some tutoring (2000-2002),
Emergency Dept Volunteer (2002-present) - >300 hrs

Work Exp: Engineering and mainly computer positions.
Have run 2 computer consulting businesses.

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List of schools:

CWRU, Ohio State, Cincinnati, Wright State, MCO
Dartmouth
UConn
UVermont
Albany, SUNY - Buffalo
Penn State, Drexel, Temple

Louisville
EVMS, VCU
Wake Forest
Vanderbilt

Chicago Med School
MSU
MCW
Iowa
Kansas/KC
Nebraska

OHSU

Texas A&M, Texas Tech

Saint Louis
Creighton
Loyola

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[MEG@COOL]

You will be in your 50's when you are done with school + residency. You will have massive dept from school which will take some time to pay off. Unless your wife is your sugar mama, intend on working until you are old and shriveled.

 

[principessa]

Ignore MEG@COOL. I think you're a solid applicant and you could probably stand to apply to fewer schools, so long as you keep several private schools.

 

[The Rookie]

Hey Meg,

Just leave me be alone too ...

I am my own sugar daddy - I have just a little money (...) from working in the computer industry in the late 90's/early 2000 with stock options. I got out before the crash ...

I hope to complete med school debt free ...

But maybe house free as well ...

 

[stinkycheese]

I really admire people who can change careers in mid-life, but I have to admit that in some ways, it bewilders me. Once you already have a stable job and a family, what can be so important that you would willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and sacrifice time with your kids for the next 8 years? I think its amazing to have that kind of drive, but I have to admit, it boggles my mind.

List looks good.

 

[skypilot]

Hey, I think it is great that you are going to school at your age. And you will be only about 48 when you become a doctor with at least 20 years of practicing ahead of you.

As far as your list of schools, I think it is excellent if a bit long for your very good stats (maybe due to the age factor?) . The school which you have a lower chance of getting into might be UConn.

I think you could use some more reach schools. Maybe UMich and Pitt? Find schools that might be really interested in your engineering background.

You can use the spreadsheet of out of state matriculation rates to winnow your list:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/2003school.htm

 

[gschl1234]

Hey Rookie, I also applied with no state school and have only slightly higher stats. I am also non-trad and have a BS and M.Phil. in chemistry. I got into 2 state schools and 1 private so as long as you're still a US citizen, I don't think you have much to worry about regarding getting admission. As far as paying for it, if your wife works, most state schools will let you become an "in state" student after the first year (after your wife has filed taxes) and that can really make a difference. At the 2 state schools where I was admitted, they charged about 20K (tuition only) for in-staters and 40K for out-of-staters. Even if you have a lot saved up, the difference is significant so keep that in mind when you're deciding where to go. Oh yes, and if your wife works for the state school (i.e. if she's a professor or staff) some state schools will automatically count you as in-state so be sure to ask about that at your interviews. Good luck. 🙂

 

[skypilot]

I really admire people who can change careers in mid-life, but I have to admit that in some ways, it bewilders me. Once you already have a stable job and a family, what can be so important that you would willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and sacrifice time with your kids for the next 8 years? I think its amazing to have that kind of drive, but I have to admit, it boggles my mind.

I think I have some perspective on this. 🙂 As you get to middle age and establish financial success you sometimes have the freedom to decide what you are going to do for the next half of your life.

If you decide that you would like a career in medicine, financial concerns are not necessarily a big factor because, in the long term, medical education is an excellent investment even with a career of only 20 years.

As far as the sacrifice of time with your kids, many careers require that sacrifice. Many business people and engineers are on the road 4 or 5 days out of the week and don't get to see their kids at all.

 

[The Rookie]

Hey Rookie, I also applied with no state school and have only slightly higher stats. I am also non-trad and have a BS and M.Phil. in chemistry. I got into 2 state schools and 1 private so as long as you're still a US citizen, I don't think you have much to worry about regarding getting admission. As far as paying for it, if your wife works, most state schools will let you become an "in state" student after the first year (after your wife has filed taxes) and that can really make a difference. At the 2 state schools where I was admitted, they charged about 20K (tuition only) for in-staters and 40K for out-of-staters. Even if you have a lot saved up, the difference is significant so keep that in mind when you're deciding where to go. Oh yes, and if your wife works for the state school (i.e. if she's a professor or staff) some state schools will automatically count you as in-state so be sure to ask about that at your interviews. Good luck. 🙂

How many schools did you apply to ???

 

[gschl1234]

How many schools did you apply to ???

I can't remember exactly but I put about 16 or 17 schools on my AMCAS but only filled out 11 or 12 secondaries.

 

[Newquagmire]

holy moly, that's a lot of schooling you have there. good luck, i'm sure you'll do fine.

 

[smokeycat]

I really admire people who can change careers in mid-life, but I have to admit that in some ways, it bewilders me. Once you already have a stable job and a family, what can be so important that you would willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and sacrifice time with your kids for the next 8 years? I think its amazing to have that kind of drive, but I have to admit, it boggles my mind.

List looks good.

Many people change careers mid life simply b/c their careers aren't satisfying anymore. Others realize that they really hate their jobs and need a serious change. I've worked in a job (good salary and benefits) that I hated, and it got so bad that it didn't matter how much money I made. It made me very bitter and angry. Life is very difficult when you work in a profession that you don't like.

One of my mom's friend's (in his 60's) is completing law school. She has other friends that are in PhD programs. The children are adults and the house is paid for, so why not go to school?

 

[rapshi]

Look into UMDNJ, they offer in-state tuition to anyone who gets in. Basicly you need an address in NJ b/4 school starts. With your stats and background, you will get into many schools so sit back and enjoy the ride.
P.S. Why don' t you look into Hamilton's med school, it's a three year program, and they favour non-trad apps!

 

[fastball911]

Even if you never contribute to the field of medicine as a doctor think of all the guidance you could give to your fellow students in medical school. I come from a university that is about 50% non-traditional and the older students provided so much maturity to my classes. But, you also have to think about your kids and the time you'll spend apart from them. But if you feel comfortable and you have and understanding family you sound like an excellent candidate.

 

[Alexander99]

I really admire people who can change careers in mid-life, but I have to admit that in some ways, it bewilders me. Once you already have a stable job and a family, what can be so important that you would willingly spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and sacrifice time with your kids for the next 8 years? I think its amazing to have that kind of drive, but I have to admit, it boggles my mind.

List looks good.

That's exactly how I feel about the situation. Not to be discouraging but the OP's kids are going to need his dad around more than ever in the next decade or so (the teen years are the most demanding). Don't you think he's being a bit selfish in pursuing his dreams at the expense of his kids' lives? They're gonna have less money growing up (especially with 4 kids) and they're not gonna see any benefits of the dad making more money once he's a physician cause they'll be grown up by that time.

I think in situations such as this, you really have to consider what your motivations are. Is it more important to look out for your kids' best interests or to pursue your personal goals? Is your goal to provide for your family or to just feel good about being a doctor? I think 100% of the time, it should be the former and not the latter.

And not to harp on other people on SDN but there tends to be a tendancy for everyone to automatically support others on here and enthusiastically tell them to "GO FOR IT!!" without considering the whole picture. For example, if I said something like this:

"Hello. I am a 50 year old male and have 5 kids (aged 5-10). I've been working my hands to the bone to support them and realize I hate my 9-5 job. I really want to become a doctor. I never went to undergrad so I'll have to go get my bachelor's first before applying to med school. Obviously, living on student loans, my kids are going have to "rough it" a bit. Should I go for it?"

I guarantee you lots of people on here will automatically say, "Go for it. If you set your mind to it, you can get there." But what about the kids??

In this situation, I've gotta tell the OP, think of your kids first and yourself second.

 

[Alexander99]

As far as the sacrifice of time with your kids, many careers require that sacrifice. Many business people and engineers are on the road 4 or 5 days out of the week and don't get to see their kids at all.

But that's no excuse. If he's in the situation to spend time with his kids now while providing for them, switching to med for his own benefit and saying, "Well, other kids have it just as bad" is not acceptable. That's the equivalent of slapping your kids around and saying, "Well, other kids get beat with sticks so you don't have it that bad."

The business people and engineers you speak of do that cause that's the best way they can provide for their kids. It can be argued that even they might want to consider a career change so they can spend more time with their kids.

I guess I feel pretty strongly about family cause mine bit the big one. I really think family should come first. What's the point of pursuing medicine where your career is supposed to be about helping others when you can't even put your own family ahead of yourself?

 

[The Rookie]

Hey there
This is actually a reply from the Rookie's wife. I am coming to my husbands defense. Yes he is following his dreams and it might seem a bit selfish, but it is anything but selfish. I did not learn about his dream to be a doctor until our second child was born ( 6 1/2 weeks early and spent time in NICU). Then when our son was released from the hospital, I was subsequently hospitalized and had emergency surgery. He kept all his dreams from us to do the "responsible" thing. When he finally shared his dream, I said "go for it!" He said no, because he had a wife and family to support. We were blessed with two more children and financial resources to meet all our needs. He has always been there for his family and will be there in the future. He has been at the hospital every time our children have been sick, and I'm thankful that he is pursuing medicine. His children are also very supportive! Our older ones see him pursing his dreams in spite of difficulties and our youngest son wants to be a doctor and a daddy, just like him. His family has been and will continue to be a source of encouragement and inspiration.

 

[samurai_lincoln]

But that's no excuse. If he's in the situation to spend time with his kids now while providing for them, switching to med for his own benefit and saying, "Well, other kids have it just as bad" is not acceptable. That's the equivalent of slapping your kids around and saying, "Well, other kids get beat with sticks so you don't have it that bad."

The business people and engineers you speak of do that cause that's the best way they can provide for their kids. It can be argued that even they might want to consider a career change so they can spend more time with their kids.

I guess I feel pretty strongly about family cause mine bit the big one. I really think family should come first. What's the point of pursuing medicine where your career is supposed to be about helping others when you can't even put your own family ahead of yourself?

Caucasian, please. As if the OP was describing his situation to win anyone's approval.

Back on subject... one comment I have re: the school list is that you may as well apply to all the Texas schools if you are going to go through the trouble of filling out the TMDSAS app package. At least give yourself a shot at UT-Southwestern, UTSA, etc. if those are schools of interest. I would even throw in Baylor on AMCAS, since they take a fair # of nonresidents and the tuition is dirt cheap.

Other than that, I think you are giving yourself a lot of realistic shots. Perhaps too many? You may be able to cut out a few like Drexel and Temple, since it looks like you aren't real big on large northeastern cities. Those two selections seem to stand out. I realize they are typical "safety" schools, but I don't see any reason to apply if you and your family would hate Philly.

 

[NubianPrincess]

Hey there
This is actually a reply from the Rookie's wife. I am coming to my husbands defense. Yes he is following his dreams and it might seem a bit selfish, but it is anything but selfish. I did not learn about his dream to be a doctor until our second child was born ( 6 1/2 weeks early and spent time in NICU). Then when our son was released from the hospital, I was subsequently hospitalized and had emergency surgery. He kept all his dreams from us to do the "responsible" thing. When he finally shared his dream, I said "go for it!" He said no, because he had a wife and family to support. We were blessed with two more children and financial resources to meet all our needs. He has always been there for his family and will be there in the future. He has been at the hospital every time our children have been sick, and I'm thankful that he is pursuing medicine. His children are also very supportive! Our older ones see him pursing his dreams in spite of difficulties and our youngest son wants to be a doctor and a daddy, just like him. His family has been and will continue to be a source of encouragement and inspiration.

I wish you and your family the best of luck. I am a little surprised at what I am reading. It seems you cannot win. If this were a young woman who wanted to have her first child after having finished medical school, people would be calling her selfish as well. 👎

 

[Alexander99]

Caucasian, please. As if the OP was describing his situation to win anyone's approval.

Your "caucasian, please" remark made me laugh pretty hard.

Anyway, I conclude the OP was seeking approval. Why else is it necessary to mention he's 42 and has 4 kids? Believe me. I know how to read people.

 

[samurai_lincoln]

Your "caucasian, please" remark made me laugh pretty hard.

Anyway, I conclude the OP was seeking approval. Why else is it necessary to mention he's 42 and has 4 kids? Believe me. I know how to read people.

Actually, I kind of thought the same thing myself. But I really just wanted to break out "caucasian, please" since I've had the phrase in my head all day 😉

 

[Alexander99]

I wish you and your family the best of luck. I am a little surprised at what I am reading. It seems you cannot win. If this were a young woman who wanted to have her first child after having finished medical school, people would be calling her selfish as well. 👎

Yeah. I think it'd be somewhat selfish for anyone to have a child right as they're hitting their residency and basically won't be around the child at all (you work 80-100 hours a week.) What's the point of having a child if you can't take care of them? If the timing doesn't work out, why not adopt a child when you're more established?

With the OP, he's basically going to stop making money for 4 years straight in med school while simultaneously becoming unavailable during residency (working 80+ hours a week) while making minimal money. This while his kids are hitting their teen years and need the most guidance.

That's nice that the OP's wife is supportive but I find it somewhat riduculous that she mentioned his kids are also supportive. They're all 10 or younger!
When I was 8, I could have been told my dad was gonna be a hitman so we'd have more money and I probably would have been "supportive." Do they have any idea that they basically won't be seeing their dad when he's doing his residency? Has it been explained in the terms, "Once your daddy begins training to become a doctor, you won't be seeing him very much"? I'll bet only the fact that he'll be happy, it'll be cool, etc (the positive points) have been mentioned.

In either case, for everyone one of me, there's going to be 100 people on SDN pushing you to do it so you've got the support you need OP. Go ahead and do your thing. Just realize that not being around while your kids grow up will blow hard, both for you and your kids.

 

[Alexander99]

Actually, I kind of thought the same thing myself. But I really just wanted to break out "caucasian, please" since I've had the phrase in my head all day 😉

You're a pretty funny guy. Funny name too. You get: 👍 👍

 

[Mirror Form]

Hey there
This is actually a reply from the Rookie's wife. I am coming to my husbands defense. Yes he is following his dreams and it might seem a bit selfish, but it is anything but selfish. I did not learn about his dream to be a doctor until our second child was born ( 6 1/2 weeks early and spent time in NICU). Then when our son was released from the hospital, I was subsequently hospitalized and had emergency surgery. He kept all his dreams from us to do the "responsible" thing. When he finally shared his dream, I said "go for it!" He said no, because he had a wife and family to support. We were blessed with two more children and financial resources to meet all our needs. He has always been there for his family and will be there in the future. He has been at the hospital every time our children have been sick, and I'm thankful that he is pursuing medicine. His children are also very supportive! Our older ones see him pursing his dreams in spite of difficulties and our youngest son wants to be a doctor and a daddy, just like him. His family has been and will continue to be a source of encouragement and inspiration.

Hello, the rookie is lucky to have such a nice and supportive wife! One of my father's current colleagues made some big bucks when he was young, and went to med school around the age of 40, and he did just fine. I think the list of schools isn't bad, but it wouldn't hurt to apply to a few more places as well if possible. Also, since peds isn't a competitive field, osteopathic school would also be fine to attend.

 

[irlandesa]

I think one thing to think about is that no matter how old or young you are, med school will be at least somewhat different from what you expect, and not always in a good way. I got into med school on my second try at the age of 24 and thought I was "fulfilling the dream"; as a new 4th year (unless I failed my Medicine clerkship exam) I've enjoyed the work (the wards are exciting and there are many good docs out there!) and feel that I'd make a fine doctor. But, I have been very disappointed many times this year by the ridiculously competitive behavior encouraged among students, by residents who won't even bother to speak politely to you, and an administration that provides no useful information on applying to residency. The cost is also outrageous and will not be easy to pay off. If I had to do it again, I think I would have explored other career options for a while to make sure that medicine was right for me; I think I would have been a bit better equipped to deal with rude people and difficult situations as well. The OP is well-prepared in this regard, but I can't imagine getting through the rigors of the wards (esp. Ob/Gyn and Surgery) with a big family at home. As for General Pediatrics, the grass is always greener; I'm under the impression that many Peds residents in this country are not too interested in Primary Care Peds these days. Good luck in the application process, I'd look more for a school that is family/non-trad friendly, in an area with good schools, not TOO expensive (a $200K+ debt could be crippling for your family, unless your wife makes a huge salary or you have a giant savings account). Your list looks fine, but I'd eliminate U Conn and SUNY-Buffalo as they don't take many out-of-staters. KU and Nebraska also generally will not take out-of-staters unless you are from the Midwest or have ties to the state. NYMC would be another good one to add; nice suburban campus with strong rep. UVM is fantastic for primary care (also gorgeous area), good choice!

 

[skypilot]

Yeah. I think it'd be somewhat selfish for anyone to have a child right as they're hitting their residency and basically won't be around the child at all (you work 80-100 hours a week.) What's the point of having a child if you can't take care of them? If the timing doesn't work out, why not adopt a child when you're more established?

The work week is legislated to be 80 hours a week so hopefully the OP can find a residency that complies with the law.

Second, not all residencies amount to 80 hours a week after the internship is completed so maybe it will be possible to find a less competitive residency with less hours.

On the following list of residencies, there are several with under 60 hours per week!

http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/residency.htm

By sacrificing in other areas of life, like living next door to the hospital, and driving an old used car, the OP should be able to fulfill both his career ambitions and his responsibility to his family. 🙂

 

[LUBDUBB]

Yeah. I think it'd be somewhat selfish for anyone to have a child right as they're hitting their residency and basically won't be around the child at all (you work 80-100 hours a week.) .

Listen, why don't you stop questioning peoples' motivations for going into medicine. It's okay to share your point of views, but not okay to talk as if you are the moral authority of the land.

Fact is, people live real lives with real responsibilities, not everyone is 18yrs old, just sitting on their @$$ trying to decide at which soup kitchen to volunteer to please adcoms.

The OP asked for advice about applying to schools - he did not ask for your evaluation of whether he's fit for medicine.

~Lubdubb

 

[skypilot]

As mentioned earlier, women in medicine will face these questions and challenges regarding responsibility to their families versus demands of their career. With the long training times in medicine they will face some tough choices about family life versus career advancement.