Outrageous tuition and fees...

[BestDoctorEver]

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I knew it was bad, but I never thought it was that bad... A school has the nerves to charge these kind of tuition and fees...

Glendale Tuition and Fees
Glendale, AZ Campus

• TUITION AND FEES
• TUITION PAYMENT
• PAYMENT PLANS

Glendale Tuition and Fees (for academic year 2014-2015)
Please Note: Tuition rates are subject to change each academic year for all enrolled students. Historically, tuition has increased between 4% and 7% annually.

Program

Tuition

Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine

$58,030

College of Pharmacy - Glendale

$50,577

College of Dental Medicine - Arizona*

$65,348

Arizona College of Optometry**

$35,122

Physician Assistant Studies

$42,074

Occupational Therapy

$35,790

Biomedical Sciences, Master of Arts

$38,193

Biomedical Sciences, Master of Biomedical Science

$32,655

Podiatric Medicine***

$36,965

Cardiovascular Science****

$35,682

Nurse Anesthesia

$38,677

Clinical Psychology

$30,297

Physical Therapy

$34,035

Veterinary Medicine

$52,400

For the 2014-2015 academic year, all programs (both full and part-time) have an annual student services fee of $600. Additional fees may be assessed including disability insurance or other charges as determined by each individual college. Students enrolled on a less than full-time basis will be charged tuition based on a per-credit-hour fee as determined by the University. If a student is given "advanced standing" and registered less than full-time in a given quarter, they will be charged on a per-credit-hour basis. All rates and fees are subject to correction.

*The College of Dental Medicine - Arizona Program has the following additional fees:

• Technology Fee - First Year Only - $1,500
• Surgical Atlas and Telescope Fee - First Year Only - $1,678
• Supply Fee - All Years - $4,314
• Instrument Rental Fee - All Years - $1,990
• Simulation Laboratory and Clinic Fee - All Years - $5,178

** The Arizona College of Optometry Program has the following additional fees:

• Technology Fee - First Year Only - $1,500
• Equipment and Diagnostic Kit Fee - First Year Only - $4,358

*** The Arizona School of Podiatric Medicine Program has the following additional fees:

• Technology Fee - First Year Only - $700
• Surgical Instrument Fee - First Year Only - $600

**** The Cardiovascular Science Program has the following additional fees:

• Technology Fee - First Year Only - $699

 

[NontradCA]

Cool story, breh.

 

[Smith1000]

OP should be taken with a grain of salt. Midwestern is expensive yes, but you need to keep in mind the following:

1. Strong board pass rates/scores for nearly all of their programs that require them. Their D.O. scores are strong and from what I've heard from a lot of people their podiatry program has the highest stats in the country.

2. Good facilities/equipment. This is especially true with Dental, hence the very high fees for them. They are paying for some really top-notch stuff. Is the price astronomical? Yeah. But you SEE where the money is going. I've never seen anything like it.

3. Beautiful campus, environment. A lot of students here were willing to shell out the extra money just to live in a fairly affluent, safe, Arizona suburb instead of the middle of a run down part of a major city.

4. Good connections and placements post-graduation for just about all of their healthcare programs.


Year after year, they have people lining up for their programs to a point where admissions is pretty competitive in just about everything. While you may have an issue with the cost of tuition, as long as people keep applying and wanting to get in, I don't think it matters.

 

[jw3600]

OP should be taken with a grain of salt. Midwestern is expensive yes, but you need to keep in mind the following:

1. Strong board pass rates/scores for nearly all of their programs that require them. Their D.O. scores are strong and from what I've heard from a lot of people their podiatry program has the highest stats in the country.

2. Good facilities/equipment. This is especially true with Dental, hence the very high fees for them. They are paying for some really top-notch stuff. Is the price astronomical? Yeah. But you SEE where the money is going. I've never seen anything like it.

3. Beautiful campus, environment. A lot of students here were willing to shell out the extra money just to live in a fairly affluent, safe, Arizona suburb instead of the middle of a run down part of a major city.

4. Good connections and placements post-graduation for just about all of their healthcare programs.


Year after year, they have people lining up for their programs to a point where admissions is pretty competitive in just about everything. While you may have an issue with the cost of tuition, as long as people keep applying and wanting to get in, I don't think it matters.

This guy is in deep. Put down the kool aid brother/nice first post AZCOM employee. No program should be this much. Midwestern is often the go to example of outrageous, unjustified tuition.

 

[Roxas]

It is outrageous, which is why I didn't apply there. For some applicants however, it comes down to paying higher tuition or waiting a year and reapplying.

 

[jw3600]

Cool story, breh.

The cliche "cool story bro" already makes you look like kind of an ass. When you do it to a totally reasonable post about a pervasive problem, it really looks bad.

 

[D4C]

The only thing that blows my mind is that the pod kids get about the same education (at least for 1-2 years), and yet, it's about 20k cheaper. I feel for the new vet students though. Comparable tuition to medicine, but fewer job prospects / lower pay. Rough times ahead for some!

 

[NontradCA]

The cliche "cool story bro" already makes you look like kind of an ass. When you do it to a totally reasonable post about a pervasive problem, it really looks bad.

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

 

[chajjohnson]

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

I went to my state allopathic school, and it's in-state tuition is highest or second highest in the country ( more than 40K). The max scholarship they give out for "ethnically average" students is about4K. I literally had no option for a cheap school.

 

[Smith1000]

This guy is in deep. Put down the kool aid brother/nice first post AZCOM employee. No program should be this much. Midwestern is often the go to example of outrageous, unjustified tuition.

I'm just a student. The point is, I feel for the most part a majority of students here are really happy and enjoy the school. Does it justify the cost? I don't know. But we are all paying it to be here so in a way it means we are fine with it...though I don't think anybody is happy about tuition regardless of where they go.

A lot of the people here chose to go here, and for a lot of the students I know, it was the school they wanted to be at. This isn't a case of "Well, its super expensive but its the only school I could've gotten in to so I settled". A good portion of students here are either Californian or Mormon..so the school is relatively close to where they are from.

It's a solid school. Tuition is high. Thankfully, we live in a country where there are a lot of different schools so if you don't like one, you can choose another.

For me personally, my choice was between Midwestern, schools in too rural of a location, or schools in big cities (and in bad areas at that). I chose Midwestern due to the quality of life. It's been worth the extra cost from my experience. Housing is pretty damn cheap in the vicinity too compared to city life.

As for the tuition being unjustified..that may be so. But at least we are able to see how its being spent (such as with improvements to the campus, curriculums, etc.), which can't be said for a lot of other schools in the USA where its been the same old campuses for decades and you have no idea what your money is being spent on.

 

[MatCauthon]

A lot of naive students in this thread. Using the numbers on their website for the dental school program:
1. Total 4 year tuition plus fees: $344,510
2. Cost of living on a thrifty budget: $86,611
3. Total cost: $431,211 without interest (That is $107,802 per year, on a "thrifty budget" lol, which I will plug into the compound interest calculator)
4. Total cost with accrued interest on non-subsidized loans, factoring in 6-month grace period(6.8%):
year one: 35,774
year two: 26,412
year three: 17,661
year four: 9,480
Total added interest fees: $89,327

Total 4-year cost with interest on a thrifty budget (not accounting yearly tuition increases): $520,538

The 20-year student loan payment for a debt of $520,528 is $3,967 per month. Even wealthy dentists are going to have to go on IBR to pay off that kind of debt.

Medical students numbers will be less than this, but how many osteopathic students are actually going to match into the more lucrative specialties?

I guess you guys can justify that cost by "great labs, facilities, and equipment" but that is just a ridiculous number.

The only thing holding up this whole pyramid is the government-backed student loans. The kool-aid drinkers in this thread can lie to themselves, but they will be shedding a few tears when they have to deal with their first loan payments after graduation/residency.

 

[deleted480308]

There is nothing moral or immoral about offering a service for a price. When no one wants to pay the price, they won't have applicants. As it is, they now have a line out the door.....the market has spoken

 

[sazerac]

A lot of naive students in this thread. Using the numbers on their website for the dental school program:
1. Total 4 year tuition plus fees: $344,510
2. Cost of living on a thrifty budget: $86,611
3. Total cost: $431,211 without interest (That is $107,802 per year, on a "thrifty budget" lol, which I will plug into the compound interest calculator)
4. Total cost with accrued interest on non-subsidized loans, factoring in 6-month grace period(6.8%):
year one: 35,774
year two: 26,412
year three: 17,661
year four: 9,480
Total added interest fees: $89,327

Total 4-year cost with interest on a thrifty budget (not accounting yearly tuition increases): $520,538

The 20-year student loan payment for a debt of $520,528 is $3,967 per month. Even wealthy dentists are going to have to go on IBR to pay off that kind of debt.

Medical students numbers will be less than this, but how many osteopathic students are actually going to match into the more lucrative specialties?

I guess you guys can justify that cost by "great labs, facilities, and equipment" but that is just a ridiculous number.

The only thing holding up this whole pyramid is the government-backed student loans. The kool-aid drinkers in this thread can lie to themselves, but they will be shedding a few tears when they have to deal with their first loan payments after graduation/residency.

If you do income based repayment for 20 years, your loans are forgiven by the same government that loaned the money to you. So, this is just a transfer of wealth from the federal government to the school, with the student serving as a middleman paying a <10% income tax for 20 years (hell some states like California have income taxes that high). And the student also gets a medical degree thrown in for their efforts.

Seems fair to me. The government creates unaffordable tuition, the government forced to pay the unaffordable tuition. Not the student.

 

[Smith1000]

A lot of naive students in this thread. Using the numbers on their website for the dental school program:
1. Total 4 year tuition plus fees: $344,510
2. Cost of living on a thrifty budget: $86,611
3. Total cost: $431,211 without interest (That is $107,802 per year, on a "thrifty budget" lol, which I will plug into the compound interest calculator)
4. Total cost with accrued interest on non-subsidized loans, factoring in 6-month grace period(6.8%):
year one: 35,774
year two: 26,412
year three: 17,661
year four: 9,480
Total added interest fees: $89,327

Total 4-year cost with interest on a thrifty budget (not accounting yearly tuition increases): $520,538

The 20-year student loan payment for a debt of $520,528 is $3,967 per month. Even wealthy dentists are going to have to go on IBR to pay off that kind of debt.

Medical students numbers will be less than this, but how many osteopathic students are actually going to match into the more lucrative specialties?

I guess you guys can justify that cost by "great labs, facilities, and equipment" but that is just a ridiculous number.

The only thing holding up this whole pyramid is the government-backed student loans. The kool-aid drinkers in this thread can lie to themselves, but they will be shedding a few tears when they have to deal with their first loan payments after graduation/residency.

Why are you comparing dental costs to osteopathic costs in an allopathic forum? Dental school costs are nuts no matter where you go.

I can understand people thinking the tuition is crazy but really, I have a feeling this topic has been beat to death in both the osteopathic and dental sections (and vet, and podiatry, etc).

Calling people "kool aid drinkers" just because they can afford to go to the school of their choice is pretty immature. In no way does Midwestern try to hide the costs of their programs (as your superb research has shown) and people would not be here if they did not have the means of paying it off or knowing the costs ahead of time.

People go here because of stats, location, and quality of life. There is no conspiracy. If it wasn't worth it, people wouldn't apply. And many don't. But a heck of a lot do, and still get denied the opportunity to pay tons of tuition.

 

[Jabbed]

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

Higher education tuition is rising at double the inflation rate across the country and you don't think that it's a pervasive problem? State school tuition is rising at comparable rates. Even with a half tuition scholarship you'll still pay more than you would've at full price ten years ago. This isn't a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" moment; it's a broken system.

Now I'll get off your lawn before you start waving your cane at me.

 

[67552931811]

Higher education tuition is rising at double the inflation rate across the country and you don't think that it's a pervasive problem? State school tuition is rising at comparable rates. Even with a half tuition scholarship you'll still pay more than you would've at full price ten years ago. This isn't a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" moment; it's a broken system.

Now I'll get off your lawn before you start waving your cane at me.

Some even more. I was curious the other day how much I would have saved by going to my state school. I was amazed/appalled that the COA was only 5 grand cheaper. This was a school, mind you, that had a yearly tuition of about 15 grand less than a decade ago...

 

[Baller MD]

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

"Cool story, breh."

 

[Psai]

Damn crna is a good gig. Poor vet students though, costs so much for not much pay

 

[username456789]

Yesterday one of my attendings mentioned that when he was in med school (graduated in 1986), tuition was ~$2000/year. The students nearly rioted when it was raised to ~$3500 by his 4th year.

 

[jw3600]

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

Same **** different thread with you. It's always back to the "I'm old and wise and you're a dumb kid" shtick.

There is nothing moral or immoral about offering a service for a price. When no one wants to pay the price, they won't have applicants. As it is, they now have a line out the door.....the market has spoken

I hear what you're saying. You are, though, operating on the assumption that education should be completely capitalistic and unregulated. Many including myself would disagree. You can argue that a company selling a TV that has out priced itself when no one buys it displays the "market speaking" and you won't find much push back. Same applies for cars, houses, and many commodities. I think that some things should not be left to the cruel and inevitably harsh nature of economic trends. Healthcare, education, water, and several others would also be included.

 

[Aloft085]

Higher education tuition is rising at double the inflation rate across the country and you don't think that it's a pervasive problem? State school tuition is rising at comparable rates. Even with a half tuition scholarship you'll still pay more than you would've at full price ten years ago. This isn't a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" moment; it's a broken system.

Now I'll get off your lawn before you start waving your cane at me.

You know what's breaking the system? Students willing to borrow any amount of money to go to school. The lack of financial literacy among many med/dent/etc students is really quite astounding. Several financial aid officers have mentioned students being shocked upon graduation when told of their total debt amount. How is it possible to not even know your total debt amount? You should not only know that, but also how much you'll end up paying in interest, and how much total pre-tax income you'll have to devote to that.

Here's a back of the napkin estimate: For every $1 that you borrow, you'll pay almost $2 back when including interest on a 10-year repayment plan. Depending on your net tax rate, you'll require roughly $3 in pre-tax income to pay for that (assuming total net tax rate of 33%, combined state/federal). So if you borrow $200k, you can expect to pay back $400k, with a total pre-tax earnings of $600k required. So if you have a $200k/year salary, with 10-year debt repayment plan, you would be living on essentially a $140k/year salary in this example.

The financial picture really isn't that bad overall. However, ending up as a low-paying primary care physician with a high debt load could potentially bankrupt you, with no option to discharge the student loan debt during bankruptcy.

Probably the only thing that'll lower the average tuition costs for medical school is the opening of more medical schools. With acceptance rates as low as they are now, schools really hold all of the bargaining power here. Of course the residency shortage is the leading culprit in clogging the pipeline. Without that, even Carribean schools could be a potential option.

 

[Jabbed]

You know what's breaking the system? Students willing to borrow any amount of money to go to school. The lack of financial literacy among many med/dent/etc students is really quite astounding. Several financial aid officers have mentioned students being shocked upon graduation when told of their total debt amount. How is it possible to not even know your total debt amount? You should not only know that, but also how much you'll end up paying in interest, and how much total pre-tax income you'll have to devote to that.

Here's a back of the napkin estimate: For every $1 that you borrow, you'll pay almost $2 back when including interest on a 10-year repayment plan. Depending on your net tax rate, you'll require roughly $3 in pre-tax income to pay for that (assuming total net tax rate of 33%, combined state/federal). So if you borrow $200k, you can expect to pay back $400k, with a total pre-tax earnings of $600k required. So if you're living on a $200k/year salary, with 10-year debt repayment plan, you would be living on essentially a $140k/year salary in this example.

The financial picture really isn't that bad overall. However, ending up as a low-paying primary care physician with a high debt load could potentially bankrupt you, with no option to discharge the student loan debt during bankruptcy.

I agree, but even with full recognition of the cost involved, students are notoriously price insensitive when it comes to higher education. This day in age, EVERYONE goes to college. It's almost equivalent to a high school degree of old. Not going to college is a huge social stigma that reeks of failure and a despondent future. Every year millions of flock to the hallowed halls of higher education and ignore potentially lucrative careers (manufacturing floor managers make it into the low six figures, yet there's a shortage because no high school student given the choice actually wants to go work in a factory). This is all worsened by the fact that there's honestly very little that you can do with your bullsh** B.S. nowadays. What exactly does your degree in biology qualify you for? To apply to medical school or some other grad school science program and fork over even more cash before entering the workforce.

Medical school tuition could cost me double what I'm paying now and I would still pay for it (albeit not gladly).

 

[Aloft085]

I hear what you're saying. You are, though, operating on the assumption that education should be completely capitalistic and unregulated. Many including myself would disagree. You can argue that a company selling a TV that has out priced itself when no one buys it displays the "market speaking" and you won't find much push back. Same applies for cars, houses, and many commodities. I think that some things should not be left to the cruel and inevitably harsh nature of economic trends. Healthcare, education, water, and several others would also be included.

How many economics courses have you taken? Everything is ultimately left "to the cruel and inevitably harsh nature of economic trends", the only question is who pays for it, and whether or not all provided services remain legal. So you can basically either force the taxpayers to pick up the tab, or legally limit the amount of tuition that schools can charge, which will lower the quality of facilities and education. I'm not saying that taxpayer support isn't a good idea, but that doesn't change the nature of the "harsh economic trends". Economic decisions must be made, whether by students or by politicians.

 

[Jabbed]

You know what's breaking the system? Students willing to borrow any amount of money to go to school. The lack of financial literacy among many med/dent/etc students is really quite astounding. Several financial aid officers have mentioned students being shocked upon graduation when told of their total debt amount. How is it possible to not even know your total debt amount? You should not only know that, but also how much you'll end up paying in interest, and how much total pre-tax income you'll have to devote to that.

Here's a back of the napkin estimate: For every $1 that you borrow, you'll pay almost $2 back when including interest on a 10-year repayment plan. Depending on your net tax rate, you'll require roughly $3 in pre-tax income to pay for that (assuming total net tax rate of 33%, combined state/federal). So if you borrow $200k, you can expect to pay back $400k, with a total pre-tax earnings of $600k required. So if you're living on a $200k/year salary, with 10-year debt repayment plan, you would be living on essentially a $140k/year salary in this example.

The financial picture really isn't that bad overall. However, ending up as a low-paying primary care physician with a high debt load could potentially bankrupt you, with no option to discharge the student loan debt during bankruptcy.

Probably the only thing that'll lower the average tuition costs for medical school is the opening of more medical schools. With acceptance rates as low as they are now, schools really hold all of the bargaining power here. Of course the residency shortage is the leading culprit in clogging the pipeline. Without that, even Carribean schools could be a potential option.

A super simplistic overview of the issue is that you have price insensitive students that don't know any better, guaranteed lenders that are willing to give you any amount of debt that you have no way of escaping, and a system that virtually mandates you to hand over ever increasing exorbitant sums of money in exchange for a nigh worthless degree and the hope of a better future.

 

[Jabbed]

How many economics courses have you taken? Everything is ultimately left "to the cruel and inevitably harsh nature of economic trends", the only question is who pays for it, and whether or not all provided services remain legal. So you can basically either force the taxpayers to pick up the tab, or legally limit the amount of tuition that schools can charge, which will lower the quality of facilities and education. I'm not saying that taxpayer support isn't a good idea, but that doesn't change the nature of the "harsh economic trends". Economic decisions must be made, whether by students or by politicians.

Let's not hide behind the 'cold reality' of economics. We can also use your logic to justify price gouging after hurricanes and monopoly pricing points, both of which are illegal.

Oh and tuition fees =/= quality of education.

 

[deleted480308]

Let's not hide behind the 'cold reality' of economics. We can also use your logic to justify price gouging after hurricanes and monopoly pricing points, both of which are illegal.

Oh and tuition fees =/= quality of education.

Price gouging laws shouldn't exist, they slow the flow of supplies to those areas.

 

[Jabbed]

Price gouging laws shouldn't exist, they slow the flow of supplies to those areas.

Appropriate profile pic.

 

[jqueb29]

AZCOM was my first acceptance and for a while I was scared it would be my only. Then I got into my in-state MD school and am going to save about $150,000 over 4 years on tuition so that's cool. AZCOM tuition is preposterous

 

[Mehd School]

My school is expensive as ****, and I'll escape with $250,000. Going to AZCOM would keep me up at night.

 

[jw3600]

How many economics courses have you taken? Everything is ultimately left "to the cruel and inevitably harsh nature of economic trends", the only question is who pays for it, and whether or not all provided services remain legal. So you can basically either force the taxpayers to pick up the tab, or legally limit the amount of tuition that schools can charge, which will lower the quality of facilities and education. I'm not saying that taxpayer support isn't a good idea, but that doesn't change the nature of the "harsh economic trends". Economic decisions must be made, whether by students or by politicians.

That's not really true. Look at water. Water is relatively cheap. If some dingus tried to privatize it, the going price would sky rocket to dollars a gallon (like oil). Economic trends operate on the assumption that everyone is trying to maximizing profits. This doesn't have to be the case. It's OK to have some humility and not view everything in life as a widget or a commodity.

Jabbed made a good point about post disaster goods.

 

[deleted480308]

That's not really true. Look at water. Water is relatively cheap. If some dingus tried to privatize it, the going price would sky rocket to dollars a gallon (like oil). Economic trends operate on the assumption that everyone is trying to maximizing profits. This doesn't have to be the case. It's OK to have some humility and not view everything in life as a widget or a commodity.

Jabbed made a good point about post disaster goods.

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2011/4/regv34n1-1.pdf

 

[67552931811]

You know what's breaking the system? Students willing to borrow any amount of money to go to school. The lack of financial literacy among many med/dent/etc students is really quite astounding. Several financial aid officers have mentioned students being shocked upon graduation when told of their total debt amount. How is it possible to not even know your total debt amount? You should not only know that, but also how much you'll end up paying in interest, and how much total pre-tax income you'll have to devote to that.

Here's a back of the napkin estimate: For every $1 that you borrow, you'll pay almost $2 back when including interest on a 10-year repayment plan. Depending on your net tax rate, you'll require roughly $3 in pre-tax income to pay for that (assuming total net tax rate of 33%, combined state/federal). So if you borrow $200k, you can expect to pay back $400k, with a total pre-tax earnings of $600k required. So if you have a $200k/year salary, with 10-year debt repayment plan, you would be living on essentially a $140k/year salary in this example.

The financial picture really isn't that bad overall. However, ending up as a low-paying primary care physician with a high debt load could potentially bankrupt you, with no option to discharge the student loan debt during bankruptcy.

Probably the only thing that'll lower the average tuition costs for medical school is the opening of more medical schools. With acceptance rates as low as they are now, schools really hold all of the bargaining power here. Of course the residency shortage is the leading culprit in clogging the pipeline. Without that, even Carribean schools could be a potential option.

Except taxes will be taking roughly 40% (federal and state) of that 200k. Making, in your example, one living on 60K, not 140.

Furthermore, what med student (whose parents are paying) can afford to only take out 200K? My state school would have costed me 60K a year... And, that doesn't include $ for residency app/travel (so add on another 10K).

 

[Jabbed]

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2011/4/regv34n1-1.pdf

Oh my god just ration your ****ing goods during a disaster. Look, I'm smart too. I got an economics degree. I believed wholeheartedly in the science of economics for my undergrad career. So much of the theory though has no connection with reality. I'll give you an example: minimum wage laws.

First basic macrotheory argument against raising minimum wage laws: it leads to sub-optimal market outcomes, deadweight social losses, fewer jobs, blah blah blah. Five years later most economists switch their viewpoint to support raising minimum wage based on made up social utility curves. Then comes the efficiency argument (wages = marginal productivity of labor after all right?). Except then you go out into the real world and realize that no matter how fast you flip burgers, you make the same $7.50 an hour for the rest of your life. Don't worry though, because the rest of your life only lasts until the point when you get sick and can't pay your bills because the transient nature of your job means that McDonald's is somehow able to evade PPACA legislation.

So in keeping with the inherent bull**** doublespeak of economics, I claim that price gouging to meet short term demand fluctuations introduces a large negative demand side externality and leads to significant deadweight losses. Especially when comparing the price gouger's utility curves to the that of the consumer, we can easily see that the inelastic nature of the consumer's curve leads to profoundly larger losses than the supplier's curve at p1 vs p2.

I hope that answered your question. brb while I sketch some lines to support my argument.

 

[deleted480308]

Oh my god just ration your ******* goods during a disaster. Look, I'm smart too. I got an economics degree. I believed wholeheartedly in the science of economics for my undergrad career. So much of the theory though has no connection with reality. I'll give you an example: minimum wage laws.

First basic macrotheory argument against raising minimum wage laws: it leads to sub-optimal market outcomes, deadweight social losses, fewer jobs, blah blah blah. Five years later most economists switch their viewpoint to support raising minimum wage based on made up social utility curves. Then comes the efficiency argument (wages = marginal productivity of labor after all right?). Except then you go out into the real world and realize that no matter how fast you flip burgers, you make the same $7.50 an hour for the rest of your life. Don't worry though, because the rest of your life only lasts until the point when you get sick and can't pay your bills because the transient nature of your job means that McDonald's is somehow able to evade PPACA legislation.

So in keeping with the inherent bull**** doublespeak of economics, I claim that price gouging to meet short term demand fluctuations introduces a large negative demand side externality and leads to significant deadweight losses. Especially when comparing the price gouger's utility curves to the that of the consumer, we can easily see that the inelastic nature of the consumer's curve leads to profoundly larger losses than the supplier's curve at p1 vs p2.

I hope that answered your question. brb while I sketch some lines to support my argument.

Despite you being wrong in theory, i have done construction work in disaster areas where there are outages of items due to a lack of incentive to bring goods into the area.....the best way to get those artificially scarce items was to find a pickup driving around selling illegally marked up items. They sell, we buy....everyone wins

 

[Jabbed]

Despite you being wrong in theory, i have done construction work in disaster areas where there are outages of items due to a lack of incentive to bring goods into the area.....the best way to get those artificially scarce items was to find a pickup driving around selling illegally marked up items. They sell, we buy....everyone wins

The best way to get those artificially scarce items to disaster areas is to have appropriately organized social infrastructure designed for disaster relief. Only in America would you say that private merchant price gouging is the answer to resource scarcity during a national disaster. I'm always amazed by the lengths of social inequity and depravity that Americans are willing to suffer for the sake of 'freedom of choice' and 'capitalism'.

 

[jw3600]

http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/regulation/2011/4/regv34n1-1.pdf

Got 3 paragraphs in but tired from studying physio. TL;DR it for me.

 

[PL198]

There is nothing moral or immoral about offering a service for a price. When no one wants to pay the price, they won't have applicants. As it is, they now have a line out the door.....the market has spoken

BOOM ROASTED

NO PRICE IS TOO HIGH IF PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY IT

 

[deleted480308]

The best way to get those artificially scarce items to disaster areas is to have appropriately organized social infrastructure designed for disaster relief. Only in America would you say that private merchant price gouging is the answer to resource scarcity during a national disaster. I'm always amazed by the lengths of social inequity and depravity that Americans are willing to suffer for the sake of 'freedom of choice' and 'capitalism'.

Liking freedom sure is some crazy s$&t right? i mean, screw me huh?

 

[PL198]

Liking freedom sure is some crazy s$&t right? i mean, screw me huh?

you see atlas shrugged 3 yet? so mad it wasn't in any theaters by me, was going to drive 3 hours to see it but couldn't fit in schedule.

but yeah, freedom is dumb. I exist to serve the state. everyone can have everything for free.

 

[PL198]

here's a great thought: the moment medical education actually becomes cost prohibitive, there won't be an adequate supply of students. and we're not even close to that now, so buckle up kids because it's just going to go higher

not to mention inflation... if you have 2 % inflation, that means your tuition should be 8.25 % higher by the time you graduate than when you started. I don't see many schools raising tuition by more than that. Just for some math at home, if your school is 40k tuition per year, that means they have to raise tuition by 800+ bucks a year automatically just to stay the same value.

 

[67552931811]

My school is expensive as ****, and I'll escape with $250,000. Going to AZCOM would keep me up at night.

Does that include the interest that accrues during school? If so, that is not bad at all (relatively)...

 

[Jabbed]

Got 3 paragraphs in but tired from studying physio. TL;DR it for me.

The long and short of it was that there is no ethical or public policy reason to support price gouging laws and that existing laws hamper delivery of goods to stricken areas, prevent efficient consumption, and somehow allow Walmart to run mom and pop stores out of business. Importantly, they didn't do any actual research. The single piece of evidence in that article was a citation to a study that examined "potential effects of proposed price gouging legislation" on Katrina victims, which I don't have access too.

Count me in the "not super convinced" category.

 

[PL198]

The long and short of it was that there is no ethical or public policy reason to support price gouging laws and that existing laws hamper delivery of goods to stricken areas, prevent efficient consumption, and somehow allow Walmart to run mom and pop stores out of business. Importantly, they didn't do any actual research. The single piece of evidence in that article was a citation to a study that examined "potential effects of proposed price gouging legislation" on Katrina victims, which I don't have access too.

Count me in the "not super convinced" category.

too bad, not my problem. I dont live for the stricken areas. The only thing making walmart dominating mom and pop is making corporate regulations so insanely high that the economies of scale are gigantic. tear down some regulations and let people actually compete. it's funny because the libtards behind redistributing the wealth are the same ones pushing crony capitalism which is a wealth siphon for the rich. lol k bra

 

[Jabbed]

Liking freedom sure is some crazy s$&t right? i mean, screw me huh?

Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equity and equality

Amirite?

 

[jw3600]

Can't tell if PL is serious. And I don't know if I consider someone "not free" just because they can't maximize profits at the expense of society as a whole.

 

[Jabbed]

too bad, not my problem. I dont live for the stricken areas. The only thing making walmart dominating mom and pop is making corporate regulations so insanely high that the economies of scale are gigantic. tear down some regulations and let people actually compete. it's funny because the libtards behind redistributing the wealth are the same ones pushing crony capitalism which is a wealth siphon for the rich. lol k bra

 

[PL198]

Can't tell if PL is serious. And I don't know if I consider someone "not free" just because they can't maximize profits at the expense of society as a whole.

lol so you're restricting their ability to create profit, but that's not infringing on freedom. alright just come take my laptop and sell it then, not like I need it or anything. the expense of society? when will you people learn, these things never work. they've never worked in the history of man and you won't be the first ones to make them work. you don't defeat human nature. I exist for myself, not for everyone else.

 

[jw3600]

lol so you're restricting their ability to create profit, but that's not infringing on freedom. alright just come take my laptop and sell it then, not like I need it or anything. the expense of society? when will you people learn, these things never work. they've never worked in the history of man and you won't be the first ones to make them work. you don't defeat human nature. I exist for myself, not for everyone else.

Ok but you're not saying you disagree with what could be intended for society? Just that it won't work. Unfortunately I don't necessarily disagree with you.

 

[deleted480308]

Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equity and equality

Amirite?

Only freedom can produce equal treatment by government

 

[freemontie]

There is nothing moral or immoral about offering a service for a price. When no one wants to pay the price, they won't have applicants. As it is, they now have a line out the door.....the market has spoken

The market here is 20-something kids with minimal knowledge/experience in things like economics, finance or debt. Excuse me if I don't have faith in this market. At least the 2000 stock market bubble was bid up by people with some decent average level of knowledge/experience. Do you think half of these people in the "line out the door" even did the basic calcuation @MatCauthon posted? Fact: markets fail to produce rational prices often. The world doesn't work like undergrad economics.