Outrageous tuition and fees...

[DermViser]

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I went to my state allopathic school, and it's in-state tuition is highest or second highest in the country ( more than 40K). The max scholarship they give out for "ethnically average" students is about4K. I literally had no option for a cheap school.

That is ridiculous.

 

[DermViser]

The cliche "cool story bro" already makes you look like kind of an ass. When you do it to a totally reasonable post about a pervasive problem, it really looks bad.

It's par for the course for him in many respects.

 

[sazerac]

The financial picture really isn't that bad overall. However, ending up as a low-paying primary care physician with a high debt load could potentially bankrupt you, with no option to discharge the student loan debt during bankruptcy.

This might have gotten lost in the ensuing economics lesson, but with payments based on income, you don't go bankrupt on student loans anymore. You have a low income? You have a low payment. Do that for 20 years, no more student loan.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Like the US is a 100% free market capitalism🙄

 

[Aloft085]

Oh and tuition fees =/= quality of education.

Monopolies almost exclusively exist when licensed by the government. Local utilities are an example, while companies as large as Google and Exxon still have extensive competition.

As for "price gouging" after hurricanes, that's not always a bad idea. Sometimes it is better to have a higher price and a viable supply than no supply at all. People will generally strip gas stations and grocery stores bare when prices remain constant, for "just in case". Anyway, unlike you, I'll leave that debate to economists who have studied the issue in-depth.

 

[Aloft085]

That's not really true. Look at water. Water is relatively cheap. If some dingus tried to privatize it, the going price would sky rocket to dollars a gallon (like oil). Economic trends operate on the assumption that everyone is trying to maximizing profits. This doesn't have to be the case. It's OK to have some humility and not view everything in life as a widget or a commodity.

Jabbed made a good point about post disaster goods.

The difference between water and oil is that water literally flows down rivers and streams, waiting to be piped to your house. Oil has to be located, dug from the ground, refined, and then shipped to the consumer. All things considered, we have a very competitive oil price in this country, and our oil industry is far more effective than state-owned foreign competitors.

In any case, rivers simply cannot be owned. It wouldn't make it sense. You might as well claim ownership of the air, or of Chesapeake Bay. This ridiculous comparison shows that you don't have a very thorough understanding of the issue.

 

[Aloft085]

Except taxes will be taking roughly 40% (federal and state) of that 200k. Making, in your example, one living on 60K, not 140.

Furthermore, what med student (whose parents are paying) can afford to only take out 200K? My state school would have costed me 60K a year... And, that doesn't include $ for residency app/travel (so add on another 10K).

40% of $140k is not $80k. It is $56k. In your hypothetical example, you would have $84k in after tax income remaining, which is quite a lot of money. You would also have to be living in a ridiculously high tax state to pay that much in combined state/federal tax. Move to Florida or Texas, there's no income tax.

As for your student loan debt question, I'll refer you to the actual source: https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[Aloft085]

Oh my god just ration your ******* goods during a disaster. Look, I'm smart too. I got an economics degree. I believed wholeheartedly in the science of economics for my undergrad career. So much of the theory though has no connection with reality. I'll give you an example: minimum wage laws.

First basic macrotheory argument against raising minimum wage laws: it leads to sub-optimal market outcomes, deadweight social losses, fewer jobs, blah blah blah. Five years later most economists switch their viewpoint to support raising minimum wage based on made up social utility curves. Then comes the efficiency argument (wages = marginal productivity of labor after all right?). Except then you go out into the real world and realize that no matter how fast you flip burgers, you make the same $7.50 an hour for the rest of your life. Don't worry though, because the rest of your life only lasts until the point when you get sick and can't pay your bills because the transient nature of your job means that McDonald's is somehow able to evade PPACA legislation.

Your "social utility" argument only works if you take into account all factors, which you inevitably will not be able to do. The most important one, in my experience, is the ability to obtain work experience at a young age that will enable you to climb the economic ladder. My first job paid only $6/hr, and you can bet your ass that I was not worth even that much to the employer. I didn't yet know how to work. Most modern kids, unless they grew up on a farm, will likewise not be very valuable to their employers for the first few months of their employment.

Was I taken advantage of at 16-years-old when my employer paid me $6/hour? Of course not. No one would argue that I was. So why is that now illegal? Look at the youth unemployment rates, they're astronomical. 15.1 percent for young men actively looking for work, 24.8 percent for blacks, 16.5 percent for hispanics. Source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

That $6/hour job enabled me to get hired for better paying positions. The economics behind it is that I learned how to 'work' at the $6/hour job, and thus become worth more per hour. As you correctly mentioned, few low-paying jobs will ever allow you to move up to a higher-paying wage. What you did not mention, however, was that you can now far more easily get a higher paying position than previously. I went from $6/hour, to $8/hour, to $10/hour, to $12/hour, to (variable) around $15/hour, to my previous career wage of around $40/hour. That number keeps rising, and will take another massive jump after medical school and residency. The foundation for much of that was my original $6/hour job.

 

[PL198]

😕
? You said salary of 200K. 40% of that is....... 120 after taxes. If you then put 60K towards loans, you are living on 60K (unlike the 140K you originally stated). How in the world did you extrapolate that I was saying 40% of 140 😕?

^ Ugh, not really. Most states are at, what, at least 4-5%? Federal taxes on 200K are 33%. Making your taxes 37-38% (I did 40% because it makes the math easier).

That source has been shown to be gravely skewed on so many levels. Search the site, as I have 0 interest in digging the threads up.

you understand there's this thing called a tax write off and that most people don't pay taxes on the gross amount of their income, right?

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[Aloft085]

Freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equity and equality

Amirite?

Yes, you are right. Everyone was equal in the USSR. Just like they're equal in present-day Cuba, minus the leaders. Equally poor, of course. That's the only way equality works.

 

[mimelim]

It's not a pervasive problem IMO. Don't go to school if you don't want to pay the tuition. Go to a state school. Do better in school; get a scholarship. The government should stop giving out loans. Go on thinking you're owed something kids, and see where that gets you.

You clearly lack any understanding of how our system works or the realities for the vast majority of students, even those that have excelled at virtually every part of their education. Tuition increases are a very big problem in the United States and while students should always be vigilante about controlling their finances and making sound choices, we have a broken system.

 

[xffan624]

The difference between water and oil is that water literally flows down rivers and streams, waiting to be piped to your house. Oil has to be located, dug from the ground, refined, and then shipped to the consumer. All things considered, we have a very competitive oil price in this country, and our oil industry is far more effective than state-owned foreign competitors.

In any case, rivers simply cannot be owned. It wouldn't make it sense. You might as well claim ownership of the air, or of Chesapeake Bay. This ridiculous comparison shows that you don't have a very thorough understanding of the issue.

This is not an accurate description of where drinking water comes from. It has to filtered, purified, chlorinated and then pumped to your house (don't forget the mounds of chemical and bacterial testing it undergoes). Some places have a reservoir, many have underground reserves where they are pumped from (just like oil). Then the wastewater has pretty much undergo the same process in order to be dumped into a river. It's a pretty labor intensive process to have safe drinking water that flows from your sink; hence the reason why so many countries have challenges in providing it.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I lived a few minutes from AZCOM and knew there was no way I would go there.

I did the math and even by flying home 2-3 times a semester my loans are at least $10k less right now.

 

[Aloft085]

? You said salary of 200K. 40% of that is....... 120 after taxes. If you then put 60K towards loans, you are living on 60K (unlike the 140K you originally stated). How in the world did you extrapolate that I was saying 40% of 140 😕?

^ Ugh, not really. Roughly 40 states are at, what, at least 4%? Federal taxes on 200K are 33%. Making your total taxes 37-38% (I did 40% because it makes the math easier).

That source has been shown to be gravely skewed on so many levels. Search the site, as I have 0 interest in digging the threads up.

I don't blame you for not following my math, it's complicated. That's why so few medical schools understand what they're paying back. Let's revisit my example. You borrow $200k. It becomes $400k total with interest included over a 10-year period. Keep in mind that this is a rough estimate, but it's close enough for our purposes. $400k is the after tax amount that you'll owe and have to pay back. So that's $40k/year after tax over 10 years. However, I don't think that's the best way of looking at it.

The alternative way of looking at the problem is to translate the $400k in money that you owe into how much pre-tax income you would have to dedicate to paying for this money. If you assume a net tax rate of 33%, which may be plus or minus 5% from the actual number, you would need to dedicate a total of $600k in pre-tax income to paying off $400k in loans+debt. That means that your pretax income of $200k now effectively becomes $140k pretax for 10 years. You follow me? In your critique, you essentially took my after tax total and took taxes out of it again.

The point of this logical exercise is to determine the equivalent wage of what you'll be living on. You'll essentially be taking home the same amount of money as a guy who earns $140k/year in this example, which is still a very generous wage. Even if you took a family practice job at $130k, you'd still have a $70k/year effective wage, which is not a poverty wage by any means. The lower your income, the lower your effective tax rate would also be, so those numbers would change somewhat.

 

[NontradCA]

You clearly lack any understanding of how our system works or the realities for the vast majority of students, even those that have excelled at virtually every part of their education. Tuition increases are a very big problem in the United States and while students should always be vigilante about controlling their finances and making sound choices, we have a broken system.

I'm well aware of how it works. The market has spoken for itself regarding tuition fees. There is NHSC, Military scholarships available to virtually any med student.

 

[Aloft085]

This is not an accurate description of where drinking water comes from. It has to filtered, purified, chlorinated and then pumped to your house (don't forget the mounds of chemical and bacterial testing it undergoes). Some places have a reservoir, many have underground reserves where they are pumped from (just like oil). Then the wastewater has pretty much undergo the same process in order to be dumped into a river. It's a pretty labor intensive process to have safe drinking water that flows from your sink; hence the reason why so many countries have challenges in providing it.

Actually, very little water that comes into your home is pre-treated. Most water that you use is post treated, meaning that it goes through filtering and purification before being dumped back into rivers and streams. Your tap water, depending on your location, is probably piped directly from a reservoir, lake, or river. Of course they'll filter out macro-sized objects, but that's about it.

 

[xffan624]

Actually, very little water that comes into your home is pre-treated. Most water that you use is post treated, meaning that it goes through filtering and purification before being dumped back into rivers and streams. Your tap water, depending on your location, is probably piped directly from a reservoir, lake, or river. Of course they'll filter out macro-sized objects, but that's about it.

I'm not sure where you get that information or what source you're using, but this is incorrect. Unless you're getting it from a private well or living in some god forsaken country, it goes through extensive treatment. I have visited drinking water plants and they do a lot more than just filter out the sticks. Especially if it's a surface water source like a river or reservoir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification

 

[PL198]

I don't blame you for not following my math, it's complicated. That's why so few medical schools understand what they're paying back. Let's revisit my example. You borrow $200k. It becomes $400k total with interest included over a 10-year period. Keep in mind that this is a rough estimate, but it's close enough for our purposes. $400k is the after tax amount that you'll owe and have to pay back. So that's $40k/year after tax over 10 years. However, I don't think that's the best way of looking at it.

The alternative way of looking at the problem is to translate the $400k in money that you owe into how much pre-tax income you would have to dedicate to paying for this money. If you assume a net tax rate of 33%, which may be plus or minus 5% from the actual number, you would need to dedicate a total of $600k in pre-tax income to paying off $400k in loans+debt. That means that your pretax income of $200k now effectively becomes $140k pretax for 10 years. You follow me? In your critique, you essentially took my after tax total and took taxes out of it again.

The point of this logical exercise is to determine the equivalent wage of what you'll be living on. You'll essentially be taking home the same amount of money as a guy who earns $140k/year in this example, which is still a very generous wage. Even if you took a family practice job at $130k, you'd still have a $70k/year effective wage, which is not a poverty wage by any means. The lower your income, the lower your effective tax rate would also be, so those numbers would change somewhat.

wait is this 2 separate 10 yr periods, or how would someone start by paying 40k a year as a resident , and the interest would still be capitalizing if it's two separate periods

 

[Aloft085]

I'm not sure where you get that information or what source you're using, but this is incorrect. Unless you're getting it from a private well or living in some god forsaken country, it goes through extensive treatment. I have visited drinking water plants and they do a lot more than just filter out the sticks. Especially if it's a surface water source like a river or reservoir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification

You literally just linked to an article defining water purification, not citing how extensive it is. Great job.

 

[Aloft085]

wait is this 2 separate 10 yr periods, or how would someone start by paying 40k a year as a resident , and the interest would still be capitalizing if it's two separate periods

1 period. Obviously the length of your residency could increase the total owed amount significantly. This website provides some useful ballpark figures: https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf . If you know your own estimated debt, I'd just build an excel sheet for it. I can't provide a one-size estimated for everyone.

 

[xffan624]

You literally just linked to an article defining water purification, not citing how extensive it is. Great job.

Thanks. I guess they only talk about this rare occurrence of water purification for sh*ts and giggles. How bout this link? The beginning of the section on water treatment: "Virtually all large systems must treat the water."

 

[Jabbed]

Your "social utility" argument only works if you take into account all factors, which you inevitably will not be able to do. The most important one, in my experience, is the ability to obtain work experience at a young age that will enable you to climb the economic ladder. My first job paid only $6/hr, and you can bet your ass that I was not worth even that much to the employer. I didn't yet know how to work. Most modern kids, unless they grew up on a farm, will likewise not be very valuable to their employers for the first few months of their employment.

Was I taken advantage of at 16-years-old when my employer paid me $6/hour? Of course not. No one would argue that I was. So why is that now illegal? Look at the youth unemployment rates, they're astronomical. 15.1 percent for young men actively looking for work, 24.8 percent for blacks, 16.5 percent for hispanics. Source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

That $6/hour job enabled me to get hired for better paying positions. The economics behind it is that I learned how to 'work' at the $6/hour job, and thus become worth more per hour. As you correctly mentioned, few low-paying jobs will ever allow you to move up to a higher-paying wage. What you did not mention, however, was that you can now far more easily get a higher paying position than previously. I went from $6/hour, to $8/hour, to $10/hour, to $12/hour, to (variable) around $15/hour, to my previous career wage of around $40/hour. That number keeps rising, and will take another massive jump after medical school and residency. The foundation for much of that was my original $6/hour job.

Alright there Paul Ryan.

Anyway, this thread derailed pretty hard. Lataz

 

[W19]

Your "social utility" argument only works if you take into account all factors, which you inevitably will not be able to do. The most important one, in my experience, is the ability to obtain work experience at a young age that will enable you to climb the economic ladder. My first job paid only $6/hr, and you can bet your ass that I was not worth even that much to the employer. I didn't yet know how to work. Most modern kids, unless they grew up on a farm, will likewise not be very valuable to their employers for the first few months of their employment.

Was I taken advantage of at 16-years-old when my employer paid me $6/hour? Of course not. No one would argue that I was. So why is that now illegal? Look at the youth unemployment rates, they're astronomical. 15.1 percent for young men actively looking for work, 24.8 percent for blacks, 16.5 percent for hispanics. Source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm

That $6/hour job enabled me to get hired for better paying positions. The economics behind it is that I learned how to 'work' at the $6/hour job, and thus become worth more per hour. As you correctly mentioned, few low-paying jobs will ever allow you to move up to a higher-paying wage. What you did not mention, however, was that you can now far more easily get a higher paying position than previously. I went from $6/hour, to $8/hour, to $10/hour, to $12/hour, to (variable) around $15/hour, to my previous career wage of around $40/hour. That number keeps rising, and will take another massive jump after medical school and residency. The foundation for much of that was my original $6/hour job.

Why not $1/hr then? This sounds like a republican talking point...

 

[deleted480308]

Why not $1/hr then? This sound like a republican talking point...

The value of your labor is only what yiuconvince someone to pay you

 

[W19]

The value of your labor is only what yiuconvince someone to pay you

So there should be no minimum wage law then... It would nice if the system was TRUE capitalism, but we all know it isn't...

 

[PL198]

So there should be no minimum wage law then... It would nice if the system was TRUE capitalism, but we all know it isn't...

it isn't true capitalism right now ,but there's no reason a minimum wage law is needed even with the current system. people want jobs? ok work for what someone is willing to pay you. oh you're not willing to make that little? acquire skills. repeat cycle

 

[PL198]

You clearly lack any understanding of how our system works or the realities for the vast majority of students, even those that have excelled at virtually every part of their education. Tuition increases are a very big problem in the United States and while students should always be vigilante about controlling their finances and making sound choices, we have a broken system.

show me concrete rationalization behind that thought. not sensationalism of looking at a number on a piece of paper and say " hm that seems too high," show me the ROI of avg medical grad being negative, show me people with decent financial management not being able to pay off their loans until their 70s, show me anything actually valid that isn't based on emotion

 

[PL198]

Comparing tuition to 10 years ago or whatever isn't valid either, could have just had it better then, doesn't mean it's broken now. I don't like paying 50k a year for school, yet there's a million people lined up behind me happy to take my spot if I don't. I've still yet to see one actual metric that justifies any of the concerns over the rising costs of tuition.

 

[IlDestriero]

I looked up what my tuition was when I was in school and what it is currently. I thought it might have doubled. Wow. I was very wrong.
As a result, I have decided that in response to their incessant pleading for money, they will get zero.
I'll donate to my Children's Hospital instead.
I feel sorry for you all, it's not right. My school was a fantastic value once, offering a world class education at a lower than average tuition. I thought they might have continued the tradition, but they have gone quite the opposite route and are quite expensive even compared to other equivalent schools.
All while their endowment soars to new heights with successful multi billion dollar campaigns.

 

[Aloft085]

Why not $1/hr then? This sounds like a republican talking point...

It's called supply and demand of labor, you should look it up. As for your specific question, there are plenty of people that work for $0/hour. It's called an internship. Medical students doing rotations are even paying for the privilege of working. I wouldn't expect a bunch of biology majors to understand the economics involved.

 

[Aloft085]

Alright there Paul Ryan.

That's quite a compliment.

 

[PL198]

I looked up what my tuition was when I was in school and what it is currently. I thought it might have doubled. Wow. I was very wrong.
As a result, I have decided that in response to their incessant pleading for money, they will get zero.
I'll donate to my Children's Hospital instead.
I feel sorry for you all, it's not right. My school was a fantastic value once, offering a world class education at a lower than average tuition. I thought they might have continued the tradition, but they have gone quite the opposite route and are quite expensive even compared to other equivalent schools.
All while their endowment soars to new heights with successful multi billion dollar campaigns.

Facts not emotion please

 

[W19]

It's called supply and demand of labor, you should look it up. As for your specific question, there are plenty of people that work for $0/hour. It's called an internship. Medical students doing rotations are even paying for the privilege of working. I wouldn't expect a bunch of biology majors to understand the economics involved.

🙄

 

[DrEnderW]

I always find it amusing, particularly on SDN, that taking a couple economics classes in college gives people some superior authority to understand and comment on all things involving economics while others are simply ignorant.

I'm going to find a physics forum and explain to the PhD students why I disagree with the direction of string theory because I got As in my calc-based physics class in undergrad. BRB.

 

[PL198]

I always find it amusing, particularly on SDN, that taking a couple economics classes in college gives people some superior authority to understand and comment on all things involving economics while others are simply ignorant.

I'm going to find a physics forum and explain to the PhD students why I disagree with the direction of string theory because I got As in my calc-based physics class in undergrad. BRB.

It's not like this is a difficult concept to understand. I've yet to see anyone have any sort of basis for their argument besides "damn that's a big number. " there has to be statistical basis, otherwise none of these complaints have merit .

 

[IlDestriero]

Facts not emotion please

The facts are that I have amassed enough money to donate to the university and I will withhold all of that money as I believe it is inappropriate to charge $50k for tuition that 20 years ago was ~$12k. During that same time their already impressive endowment has more than doubled and they've raised more than $3B more in fundraising efforts. That is not justified. Their undergraduate tuition has increased as well, but not as dramatically. At some point they decided to put the pre$$ure on the professional graduate programs.
If they charge $100k tuition, and can still fill the class with financial idiots and the wealthy, is that Ok just because the wealthy can afford it and the financially uninformed can still afford to pay it off over 30 years on a FP income? I say no.

 

[circulus vitios]

I want to be an administrator when I grow up.

 

[PL198]

The facts are that I have amassed enough money to donate to the university and I will withhold all of that money as I believe it is inappropriate to charge $50k for tuition that 20 years ago was ~$12k. During that same time their already impressive endowment has more than doubled and they've raised more than $3B more in fundraising efforts. That is not justified. Their undergraduate tuition has increased as well, but not as dramatically. At some point they decided to put the pre$$ure on the professional graduate programs.
If they charge $100k tuition, and can still fill the class with financial idiots and the wealthy, is that Ok just because the wealthy can afford it and the financially uninformed can still afford to pay it off over 30 years on a FP income? I say no.

it's not just the wealthy. sure like 20 % of peoples parents pay for their schooling, but that's a relatively small piece of the pie

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I have a feeling with the new republican congress taking over in January, all these loan repayment programs will be eliminated or somewhat modified... I wonder how people who take these outrageous loan(s) will pay them back...

A veterinarian with 300k student loan earning 70k-80k/year... 🙁

 

[chizledfrmstone]

The facts are that I have amassed enough money to donate to the university and I will withhold all of that money as I believe it is inappropriate to charge $50k for tuition that 20 years ago was ~$12k. During that same time their already impressive endowment has more than doubled and they've raised more than $3B more in fundraising efforts. That is not justified. Their undergraduate tuition has increased as well, but not as dramatically. At some point they decided to put the pre$$ure on the professional graduate programs.
If they charge $100k tuition, and can still fill the class with financial idiots and the wealthy, is that Ok just because the wealthy can afford it and the financially uninformed can still afford to pay it off over 30 years on a FP income? I say no.

I should have gone to med school 20 years ago instead of being 6 years old and eating rocks.

 

[PL198]

I have a feeling with the new republican congress taking over in January, all these loan repayment programs will be eliminated or somewhat modified... I wonder how people who take these outrageous loan will pay them back...

A veterinarian with 300k student loan earning 70k-80k/year... 🙁

um by actually paying them back? what kind of idiot would take out a loan that they can only pay back with some bs repayment program that allows the government to foot half the bill? those programs aren't intended to be things to rely on, they're supposed to be an incentive . if you are only capable of paying back the loans if you use one of the programs, then you goofed

 

[PL198]

god what a novel concept, people actually honoring the contracts they sign.

 

[sazerac]

god what a novel concept, people actually honoring the contracts they sign.

Income-based loan forgiveness is part of the contract. What a novel concept, the lender actually honoring the contracts they offer.

 

[PL198]

Income-based loan forgiveness is part of the contract. What a novel concept, the lender actually honoring the contracts they offer.

not the same contract. you don't sign up for PAYE when you take your loans.