Over 80 Hours

[Pacman27]

---

Members do not see this ad.

There are people in my program going over 80 hours weekly and have averaged over 80 in a month

I am at DO program and afraid to report them because I am applying to residency programs this upcoming year and other interns have similar issues.

I did mention it to them a few times with no response

Any one ever deal with anything like this and what is the best way to go about dealing with it

Thanks

 

[snoopy brown]

Short answer, it's your call.

Long answer: First of all if you're not the person being affected you can still technically report but it's not really your business. Second of all different people have different ideas on reporting. It is good that you have tried to work "within the system" first since that is always the biggest complaint that adminstrative types have, that people don't try to "work with them" first. Of course it is also partly B.S. because now they know who is the person who has the problem and so any reporting will quickly identify you. (Nice, right?) Some people have extreme loyalty towards their program and say you should never ever report. Other people don't and say you should report.

Regardless, know that no matter which road you take the most important thing is that you will have no support from anyone. The people urging you to report will not show up to help you out if things get rocky, which is why they haven't done anything. They're just manipulating you to do their work because most people are cowards and have no backbone. Of course if you feel strongly about the issue and it personally affects you to the point where you want to report then go ahead. It would be to the accrediting body of your residency, not your residency itself (that would be bad).

The bottom line is this though: all of the stuff I just said should be irrelevant. The rule is supposed to be the rule and so really nobody should be able to fault you for demanding it be followed. After all you are expected to follow all the rules set down for you, right? But life is never that simple because people have many different motives behind their words. Good luck with whatever your choice is.

 

[Tired]

There are people in my program going over 80 hours weekly and have averaged over 80 in a month

I am at DO program and afraid to report them because I am applying to residency programs this upcoming year and other interns have similar issues.

I did mention it to them a few times with no response

Any one ever deal with anything like this and what is the best way to go about dealing with it

If anyone in my program ever reported me for working over my hours, I would jump them in the parking lot. No joke.

You need to mind your own damn business.

 

[Solideliquid]

If anyone in my program ever reported me for working over my hours, I would jump them in the parking lot. No joke.

You need to mind your own damn business.

Straight up gangsta. lol.

 

[Tired]

Straight up gangsta. lol.

Please, jumping people in the parking lot transcends cultural boundaries. Besides, it's internship, if you don't get them in the parking lot, you have to wait until the next day. It's not like college, when you can count on catching them out in the bars . . .

 

[snoopy brown]

I wouldn't listen much to these guys because they don't see both sides of the issue. I'm not a proponent of mandated work-hours restrictions, but it's no badge of honor to cover for your program. It would be fine if the program helped you out but they don't. If something goes down they'll just blame you and say "well we stressed multiple times that it's the resident's responsibility to notify us when they go over 80 hours." They even put that in some contracts, so you can technically be fired for violating it. And they act like they would be thrilled beyond words to send you home when you get to 80 hours and were just waiting for the first word from the resident. In other words you're going to be the sacrificial lamb of the program if it comes down to it. If the program covered you I have no problem covering the program but you can see that the program asks you to cover it and does not much in return.

 

[Tired]

I wouldn't listen much to these guys because they don't see both sides of the issue. I'm not a proponent of mandated work-hours restrictions, but it's no badge of honor to cover for your program. It would be fine if the program helped you out but they don't. If something goes down they'll just blame you and say "well we stressed multiple times that it's the resident's responsibility to notify us when they go over 80 hours." They even put that in some contracts, so you can technically be fired for violating it. And they act like they would be thrilled beyond words to send you home when you get to 80 hours and were just waiting for the first word from the resident. In other words you're going to be the sacrificial lamb of the program if it comes down to it. If the program covered you I have no problem covering the program but you can see that the program asks you to cover it and does not much in return.

That's kind of my point though. If I choose not to report my hours, I'm doing it for my own reasons. Maybe I'm covering for me program, or maybe I come in extra early because I want more time to get my work done.

Or maybe I stayed late because I don't trust the cross-cover intern who's coming on.

Or maybe there was a wicked case that came in when I was post-call, and I talked the attending into letting me scrub.

Or maybe my program does watch out for me, and I don't feel like screwing them over.

I don't need any of my fellow interns, who may have an axe to grind for whatever reason, deciding to make my decisions for me.

 

[snoopy brown]

That's fine too. But I think that if you go around acting like people who report are low-lifes that's the same as if they report your hours. It's not their business and it's really not yours either, right?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Are DO / Osteopathic programs held to the duty hour rules? The rules were mandated by the ACGME, and hence do not apply to DO programs, unless the AOA instituted similar rules.

 

[JayneCobb]

Are DO / Osteopathic programs held to the duty hour rules? The rules were mandated by the ACGME, and hence do not apply to DO programs, unless the AOA instituted similar rules.

The rules are virtually the same.

 

[gutonc]

I don't need any of my fellow interns, who may have an axe to grind for whatever reason, deciding to make my decisions for me.

I think (and I may be wrong) that the OP meant that s/he AND others in the program were going over 80 hours and should s/he report the program. If the intern is reporting that s/he is consistently going over work hours because the program doesn't look out for them (not just b/c they're inefficient which is a given this time of year) then that's totally legit.

If the OP is reporting the program because his/her co-interns are over hours but s/he isn't then, yes, jumping him/her in the parking lot is acceptable.

 

[Pacman27]

First off this is starting to effect me now and will continue to the following months as move on.

Second everyone is pretty upset and I really dont care if I am the one who reports them, its an internship and me getting overworked in fields I have no interest is really not justified.

In any case if this is where I was going to do my true training I would not say anything, but its not. Its a year of hell to make sure other attendings get paid for my work without any further teaching

 

[fuzzyerin]

That's kind of my point though. If I choose not to report my hours, I'm doing it for my own reasons. Maybe I'm covering for me program, or maybe I come in extra early because I want more time to get my work done.

Or maybe I stayed late because I don't trust the cross-cover intern who's coming on.

Or maybe there was a wicked case that came in when I was post-call, and I talked the attending into letting me scrub.

Or maybe my program does watch out for me, and I don't feel like screwing them over.

I don't need any of my fellow interns, who may have an axe to grind for whatever reason, deciding to make my decisions for me.

I totally agree. What I choose to do is my business and if someone ever reported me for hours, I'd meet all you guys in the parking lot.

Also, I think it's very hard in the beginning of the year sometimes to not go over hours - the work can get done in much less than 80 hours, but as a new intern, you don't know how to do it or what to do so it just takes longer! And sometimes it's organization, and as you get better at that, your hours go significantly down.

 

[Tired]

First off this is starting to effect me now and will continue to the following months as move on.

Second everyone is pretty upset and I really dont care if I am the one who reports them, its an internship and me getting overworked in fields I have no interest is really not justified.

Then report your own hours, not someone elses. If I got dragged in because some other intern reported me as over hours, I would call that person a liar, and accuse them of artificially inflating their hours so they could get out of work. Let's see you move on to R2 year after that.

 

[DrMom]

It's one thing if someone chooses on their own, for one reason or another, to only log part of their hours. It isn't cool if the program director, chief resident, medical education director, or someone else is pressuring someone to lie about their required hours because they are over the limits.

 

[OTD]

Bottom line is this, and it's quite simple. Are you a liar or is your program filled with liars?

If so you will lie on your hours.

If not you won't care if someone "reports" you because the times you actually went over on your hours were justified, documented and were not hidden.

I don't like the rules, but they are there.

Here's another thought, if someone will lie about something as insignificant as hours then can they be trusted to take care of you in a tight situation and take their share of the blame when mistakes occur? Absolutely not and that goes both ways. Neither residents nor programs that lie about their hours can be trusted to do the right thing with anything else either and if a mistake happens then you're on your own bud.

I personally wouldn't want to go to a place like that.

While there are legitimate reasons that come up from time to time to go over the hours (patient crashing and you are the only one available etc) there is absolutely positively no acceptable reason to ever lie about it.

If you would get pissed that someone would turn you in for going over the hours I would suggest you either quit going over the hours or quit lying about it. Either one will do cause if you haven't lied about it then they really haven't "turned anything in" have they? Don't get pissed because you may get caught doing something wrong, just quit doing the things that are wrong. It's not hard.

 

[Tired]

If you would get pissed that someone would turn you in for going over the hours I would suggest you either quit going over the hours or quit lying about it. Either one will do cause if you haven't lied about it then they really haven't "turned anything in" have they? Don't get pissed because you may get caught doing something wrong, just quit doing the things that are wrong. It's not hard.

Wow, what an enormous load of poo you just managed to drop here.

I will never get "caught" lying about my hours, because in the end, my program has the same interest I do - getting the work done and taking care of my patients.

"Did you lie about your hours?"
"Nope."
"Okay then, glad to have you on the team."

Clearly you are the guy who has to bail at 79hrs 59min (or more likely, 61hrs 13min), thereby adding 5 hours to everyone else on the team. It's okay, we'll cover you so you can run home and watch TV. Odds are we know your patients better than you anyway.

 

[Reaganite]

Wow, what an enormous load of poo you just managed to drop here.

I will never get "caught" lying about my hours, because in the end, my program has the same interest I do - getting the work done and taking care of my patients.

"Did you lie about your hours?"
"Nope."
"Okay then, glad to have you on the team."

Clearly you are the guy who has to bail at 79hrs 59min (or more likely, 61hrs 13min), thereby adding 5 hours to everyone else on the team. It's okay, we'll cover you so you can run home and watch TV. Odds are we know your patients better than you anyway.

I'm guessing you're a surgeon...To the OP: you'll see this mentality commonly on surgical services. If you personally are going over 80 hrs, report it. Many hospitals have anonymous hotlines and anonymous evals at the end of the rotation. You'd be surprised at the changes that are made especially if it's transitional years or other temporary students complaining. It happened at my institution last year. I wouldn't report somebody else's hours--thats their prerogative--but don't let them pull that **** on you or make you feel guilty about wanting to adhere to the 80hr limit.

 

[OTD]

Wow, what an enormous load of poo you just managed to drop here.

I will never get "caught" lying about my hours, because in the end, my program has the same interest I do - getting the work done and taking care of my patients.

"Did you lie about your hours?"
"Nope."
"Okay then, glad to have you on the team."

Clearly you are the guy who has to bail at 79hrs 59min (or more likely, 61hrs 13min), thereby adding 5 hours to everyone else on the team. It's okay, we'll cover you so you can run home and watch TV. Odds are we know your patients better than you anyway.

No, the only load of poo is the one shoveled by people who claim to be "professionals" and continuously lie. THAT my friend is a load of poo.

If you must know I am a surgeon, we work very hard and nobody leaves work undone. We just don't lie about it if we have to go over the hours, they are recorded accurately by everyone each and every week. Sure there are legitimate times to go over the hours, but there is NEVER a legitimate time to lie.

FWIW, going over is very rare because our program director and faculty also have this thing called integrity and if we are caught lying about our hours THAT is a firing offense. When we go over we have to record it, and when we do we have to have a good reason.

Last time I checked integrity is part of being a professional, liars don't have much integrity, and a program that would lie, or encourage you to lie, will sure as hell hang you out to dry just when it is convienent for them just like lying about your hours is now convienent for them.

 

[DoctorPhud]

.

 

[jennyboo]

There are people in my program going over 80 hours weekly and have averaged over 80 in a month

I am at DO program and afraid to report them because I am applying to residency programs this upcoming year and other interns have similar issues.

I did mention it to them a few times with no response

Any one ever deal with anything like this and what is the best way to go about dealing with it

Thanks

1. First, it's very early in the year (only 6 weeks since July 1). Unfortunately, at this time "mentioning it to them a few times" probably wasn't the smartest thing to do in the real world. As an intern, you no longer have the "right to demand changes" that you had as a medical student (they're paying you, you're not paying them). It's too early to stir the waters (yeah, we all learn that the hard way) and you may come off as a complainer or a resident with a bad attitude. Not a good start. Be cautious, keep your head low. (On the other hand, it is probably acceptable to tell a sympathetic chief resident that you're exhausted and you believe you've been going over the hours. That's if you have a friendly chief, and you should assume for the time being that your chief really can't do much about it.)

2. Keep meticulous track of when you start work and when you leave. Don't just guesstimate, log it every day. Documentation of your hours is very important because they really, really need to be calculated according to the 80 hour work week rules. Oftentimes my colleagues and I noticed that "I went over 80 hours last week" but we fail to document this and we never actually do the calculation. You will be surprised at how many times you seem to go over your 80 hours, but after the calculation is done the program is still actually within the limits (remember it has to be averaged over a month, and then the month needs to be averaged among all residents over the course of the year).

3. At every residency I've ever seen, interns regularly notice they go over 80 hours/week during their first month of internship. Your work hours may drop as you climb up the learning curve, and it's possible that the next 10 months are so under 80 hours/week for the same rotations that when averaged out, they actually are compliant with the 80 hour week.

4. When your regulatory board does their annual survey (I'm assuming there is regularly some kind of survey, the ACGME has one), you can use this to state any real concerns about violations that you may have. This includes work hour violations. They remember these comments when they do a site visit for accreditation.

5. If by October or November these problems still exist, then I think it's fair to raise them as real concerns to be discussed at the program. At this point in time I think it's too early to tell whether your program is really "over hours" or not, because you and your fellow interns are all so new at the job that you're ridiculously slow compared to how you'll be in a few months.