Overrated Schools?

[jay47]

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Okay, so I've been talking with a lot of friends who have friends in big schools like Harvard, MIT, etc... and it seems like a lot of them say that their undergrad really is a joke, and by that I don't mean it's easy, I mean that it's way overrated. I go to a university in Texas (I'd rather not say which one so I won't sound like a bigot), but is it just me or are some of the ivy league schools way too expensive for what you get?
I'm not saying that my school is any better, and I know for sure that the average intelligence level of students at my school is lower than at, say Harvard, Yale, etc... but I feel as if my undergraduate classes are just about as comprehensive and good as they could be. I have a 4.0 and have studied very diligently in a difficult major for 3 years and I just don't know what else the big expensive schools could offer that this one doesn't. My tuition is less than half of theirs and I don't know where their money goes that our doesn't.

Anyone here from a big school got any opinions on this?
Thanks, and please don't take this as a prejudiced statement, just as a serious inquisition.

 

[yorkiepoo]

Well first of all, I don't know why going to a Texas school would make you a bigot, but that's another thread all together.

I think it depends on the school. There are some state schools that are better than some private ones, California is famous for having excellent state schools (ie UCLA). Each school is different.

 

[swtcatastrophe]

Okay, so I've been talking with a lot of friends who have friends in big schools like Harvard, MIT, etc... and it seems like a lot of them say that their undergrad really is a joke, and by that I don't mean it's easy, I mean that it's way overrated. I go to a university in Texas (I'd rather not say which one so I won't sound like a bigot), but is it just me or are some of the ivy league schools way too expensive for what you get?
I'm not saying that my school is any better, and I know for sure that the average intelligence level of students at my school is lower than at, say Harvard, Yale, etc... but I feel as if my undergraduate classes are just about as comprehensive and good as they could be. I have a 4.0 and have studied very diligently in a difficult major for 3 years and I just don't know what else the big expensive schools could offer that this one doesn't. My tuition is less than half of theirs and I don't know where their money goes that our doesn't.

Anyone here from a big school got any opinions on this?
Thanks, and please don't take this as a prejudiced statement, just as a serious inquisition.

hi!

i go to MIT and i feel that a big perk of going to a top tier school is the research opportunities that are available. a lot of schools aren't very receptive to having undergrads work in their lab but MIT has a program called UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program) that is geared to helping students start doing research early.

i also think that your peers make a significant difference. being surrounded by people who are of equal intelligence and value school success as much as you do is huge. it's so helpful that there are people in my classes who understand the material better than i do and can explain it better than my professors.

you definitely get out of school what you put into it. i think it's great that you're excelling in your major; you may even have a better shot at D-school than me. i chose to come here over going to Rutgers--my state school--because 1. MIT was/is my dream school, esp back in the day when i wanted to be a math major 2. i thought it would open more doors for me post-grad 3. i didn't feel challenged in high school and i knew that i definitely would be here.

hope that answers your question. let me know if you want any more tidbits.

 

[maestro1625]

hi!

i go to MIT and i feel that a big perk of going to a top tier school is the research opportunities that are available. a lot of schools aren't very receptive to having undergrads work in their lab but MIT has a program called UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program) that is geared to helping students start doing research early.

i also think that your peers make a significant difference. being surrounded by people who are of equal intelligence and value school success as much as you do is huge. it's so helpful that there are people in my classes who understand the material better than i do and can explain it better than my professors.

you definitely get out of school what you put into it. i think it's great that you're excelling in your major; you may even have a better shot at D-school than me. i chose to come here over going to Rutgers--my state school--because 1. MIT was/is my dream school, esp back in the day when i wanted to be a math major 2. i thought it would open more doors for me post-grad 3. i didn't feel challenged in high school and i knew that i definitely would be here.

hope that answers your question. let me know if you want any more tidbits.

what school doesn't have a UROP of some sort?

the most important thing you'll learn is to develop a good taste in beer. Choose your undergrad based on location of breweries and avoid any state with ridiculous alcohol/blue laws (PA, etc).

 

[swtcatastrophe]

what school doesn't have a UROP of some sort?

the most important thing you'll learn is to develop a good taste in beer. Choose your undergrad based on location of breweries and avoid any state with ridiculous alcohol/blue laws (PA, etc).

i wasn't implying that other schools don't have UROPs or similar programs, but just that MIT's program is extremely receptive and the fact that faculty actually welcome undergrads into their labs stands out from what i heard when i was visiting other schools during the application process.

"By the time they graduate, almost 85 percent of MIT students will have collaborated on and helped produce real, ground breaking research."--from the MIT admissions website.

 

[Cymbidium]

Okay, so I've been talking with a lot of friends who have friends in big schools like Harvard, MIT, etc... and it seems like a lot of them say that their undergrad really is a joke, and by that I don't mean it's easy, I mean that it's way overrated. I go to a university in Texas (I'd rather not say which one so I won't sound like a bigot), but is it just me or are some of the ivy league schools way too expensive for what you get?
I'm not saying that my school is any better, and I know for sure that the average intelligence level of students at my school is lower than at, say Harvard, Yale, etc... but I feel as if my undergraduate classes are just about as comprehensive and good as they could be. I have a 4.0 and have studied very diligently in a difficult major for 3 years and I just don't know what else the big expensive schools could offer that this one doesn't. My tuition is less than half of theirs and I don't know where their money goes that our doesn't.

Anyone here from a big school got any opinions on this?
Thanks, and please don't take this as a prejudiced statement, just as a serious inquisition.

Do you have a 4.0 with a curve? A lot of state schools with offer you just that - a curve. Oh yeah, and multiple choice tests! (I did my dental pre-reqs at my local state school and was pretty amazed by those 2 facts).

 

[dental0903]

swtcatastrophe - congrats on getting into such a great school! I generally agree with what you have said, but I would also like to offer some points about "lower tier" schools.


I go to what many people would consider a lower tier public university. Absolutely any undergrad at my university that wants to do research is able to, and is encouraged to do so. Probably the difference between your school and mine is that more people at your school choose to do research. It is 100% available at my school.

I agree that your classmates are probably much smarter than mine! However, my classmates are a much more accurate sample of the general population and the population that we will all encounter as dentists and members of the health professions. My intent is not to make a sweeping generalization, but I could imagine that someone who is surrounded by geniuses (of which 85% choose to particpate in undergrad research) all the time may have more difficulties communicating with the common folk that will be their patients some day. So, yeah I could be sitting next to way smarter people at an Ivy League, but my experience with public education has been just fine.

There are many different types of education that are obtained in college, and some of the biggest lessons I have learned have been through my interaction with people that would never be smart enough to attend MIT, Harvard, Yale, etc.

 

[armorshell]

There's almost certainly no difference. The reason graduates from top schools do so well in life is because they had to work their ass off to get there in the first place. Top schools only recruit top performers, then take all the credit when the students succeed.

It's not fair really...

 

[TheWiredNerv]

armorshell is the man

 

[wigglytooth]

I go to what many people would consider a lower tier public university. Absolutely any undergrad at my university that wants to do research is able to, and is encouraged to do so. Probably the difference between your school and mine is that more people at your school choose to do research. It is 100% available at my school.

I agree that your classmates are probably much smarter than mine! However, my classmates are a much more accurate sample of the general population and the population that we will all encounter as dentists and members of the health professions. My intent is not to make a sweeping generalization, but I could imagine that someone who is surrounded by geniuses (of which 85% choose to particpate in undergrad research) all the time may have more difficulties communicating with the common folk that will be their patients some day. So, yeah I could be sitting next to way smarter people at an Ivy League, but my experience with public education has been just fine.

At the same time, people who go to these schools and push themselves aren't automatons. People go out on the weekend (which can start Wednesday night), keep ties with their friends from other schools, and *gasp* even do community outreach where they interact with "common folk." Talking to different people just requires a bit of listening and adjusting to your audience. The admissions committees to these schools also just don't look at the numbers--they look for a personality/life outside of academics as well.

For me, it's personally being in a challenging environment that I enjoy. Like the poster from MIT, I was bored in high school, and I've pretty much always been challenged here. Sure I'm not the top of the pops anymore, but I've grown a lot because of that fact. And I felt more accomplished than I ever had the handful of times I really achieved. Also I think being a leader but also work in a group (as on a club board) in a competitive environment also says something to your character. As in, you can make yourself stick out even when everyone else is trying to do the same thing.

You'll get a different experience wherever you choose to do undergrad, and it's seriously depends only on what environment you want to be in. After you make that choice, it's up to you to strive to do the best you can.

 

[xtractime]

Do you have a 4.0 with a curve? A lot of state schools with offer you just that - a curve. Oh yeah, and multiple choice tests! (I did my dental pre-reqs at my local state school and was pretty amazed by those 2 facts).

state universities may have curves and they may have multiple choice tests...but they WILL fail students. i remember in my calc class at GaTech, an A started at 70%. from what i heard at ivy leagues they will MAKE sure you don't fail, whatever methods those are. feel free to flame, but this is what i've been told by friends at a few ivies. ivies will take care of you by providing numerous tutors, many academic advisors, easier access to professors.....and state schools will take care of you with a curve.

There's almost certainly no difference. The reason graduates from top schools do so well in life is because they had to work their ass off to get there in the first place. Top schools only recruit top performers, then take all the credit when the students succeed.

It's not fair really...

this is true, in conjuction with the above answer, generally students who attend ivy league schools have demonstrated higher levels of achievement at the high school level. but that doesn't mean there are many more smarter ppl at ivy leauges over state schools. in fact, UF ranked #2 last year in the # of national merit scholars, behind harvard.

 

[dentstd]

that doesn't mean there are many more smarter ppl at ivy leauges over state schools.

anybody else find the irony amusing? 🙂

 

[Daydream46]

from what i heard at ivy leagues they will MAKE sure you don't fail, whatever methods those are. feel free to flame, but this is what i've been told by friends at a few ivies.

Actually I have heard the same from a dean of a dental school... he said there is a lot of grade inflation at top schools... he said people pay a lot of money to there and they feel like that entitles them to good grades...

 

[wigglytooth]

ivies will take care of you by providing numerous tutors, many academic advisors, easier access to professors.....and state schools will take care of you with a curve.

This is just one of the many things that you pay for at a private school... do you want to do well because you learned the material or because you got a curve? Of course there are curves in classes (most to a B) so that there is someway of stratifying the grades. Also, not all students take advantage of these academic resources, so actually some people do indeed fail.

 

[PatriotACE]

indeed

 

[dentstd]

Actually I have heard the same from a dean of a dental school... he said there is a lot of grade inflation at top schools... he said people pay a lot of money to there and they feel like that entitles them to good grades...

the dean sounds misguided. the cost of the education is predominantly guided by the cost of administration and such. that's why top private schools cost about the same as lower-ranked private schools. and as far as grades go, it's good to have security. if you want to risk failing out of school, go to NYU dental. 😛

 

[dentstd]

This is just one of the many things that you pay for at a private school... do you want to do well because you learned the material or because you got a curve? Of course there are curves in classes (most to a B) so that there is someway of stratifying the grades. Also, not all students take advantage of these academic resources, so actually some people do indeed fail.

we're not graded on whether we learned the material or how well we learned the material. in math/science classes, we're graded on how well we use the material in problems and situations. in the humanities/liberal arts/etc, we're graded on the quality of our critique of the ideas taught in class and how well we synthesize our own ideas. (the level of insight, the clarity of our thoughts, etc) the only time I've ever had an exam question that asked me to recite/recall facts from lectures or textbooks was during the summer, when I took classes at the local state school.

 

[dental0903]

we're not graded on whether we learned the material or how well we learned the material. in math/science classes, we're graded on how well we use the material in problems and situations. in the humanities/liberal arts/etc, we're graded on the quality of our critique of the ideas taught in class and how well we synthesize our own ideas. (the level of insight, the clarity of our thoughts, etc) the only time I've ever had an exam question that asked me to recite/recall facts from lectures or textbooks was during the summer, when I took classes at the local state school.

Whew!! It's a good thing you only went to that state school for the summer!!

 

[dentstd]

Whew!! It's a good thing you only went to that state school for the summer!!

i know what you're implying, but no...the alternative was to leave the top school. i wasn't about to do that.

and this has no bearing on the main point of the claim. we're graded on a different basis, regardless of the time of the year we take the courses.

 

[iLuvDAT]

i don't think it's worth attending ivy schools if someone just wanna be a dentist 'cause you would stand a chance of weed out in one of lower science courses. personally i don't buy BS like "challenging education prepares you for your future studies". i mean, if you could get into a dental school of your choice from a 5-grand-a-year state school, why bother spending 50K just for the sake of ivy league recognition. No offense. most people from top tier schools decide to go into dentistry for a) they realize that their GPAs are not good enough for med schools or b) dentistry is so hot right now as far as money goes. also, chances are that you won't find more than five predents out of 400 in first year G chem class and as time goes by, more predents pop up gradually. many come from premed and engineering. nobody is doing pre pharm or optometry at top tier schools either.

 

[dental0903]

i know what you're implying, but no...the alternative was to leave the top school. i wasn't about to do that.

and this has no bearing on the main point of the claim. we're graded on a different basis, regardless of the time of the year we take the courses.

haha yeah I know, I was just trying to give you a hard time. I know what you mean though about the different ways that some schools test their students. Going to a very large state school, I know my professors struggle to find ways to challenge the students, but yet not be an incredible burden on themselves and the TAs to grade the tests. I've been lucky to take a few upper level science classes that have been relatively small, and there is a definite difference in the way that the professors can test the students.

 

[bigstix808]

when i was coming out of high school i was accepted to all 11 schools i applied to (8 big public state schools, 3 well known private/semi-ivy league schools). anyway, i think the school you go to does not draw quite the whole picture of one's persona, intelligence, or even merit as a student. for me, and for many others out there, who have excellent academic credentials out of HS, they just can't afford to go to the ivy league schools. i went to where my school was free which turned out to be in TIME mag's top ten schools to attend for 3 yrs in a row when i went there, and it was a state school with 17,000 students. i am now in an even smaller state school in GA and i love it. again, i'm not paying for my school. i was recruited to come down here for athletics. I'm now in graduate school here and i'm not paying for that either as i have a graduate research assistantship so i get paid to come to school😀.

i think this whole debate over ivy league vs private vs public state schools is a bit childish. sure i wish i could have gone to the private schools as i wanted to be challenged more, and possibly be around a greater percent of people that were as smart if not smarter me (yes, i think i'm quite smart 🙂) but, this says nothing about how hard i work, how well i can problem solve, or that i have any other stigma associated with attending a state school. everyone will always get out of their education what ever they put in to it.

sorry to ramble...i've been studying neuroscience for the past 2 days and i'm a bit out of it. don't mean to step on too many toes...just throwing my op out there 🙂

oh yea, i just read the previous post...i've only had 5 classes with more than 45 students (g chem, o chem, and Intro Bio)

 

[dentstd]

i don't think it's not worth attending ivy schools if someone just wanna be a dentist 'cause you would stand a chance of weed out in one of lower science courses. personally i don't buy BS like "challenging education prepares you for your future studies". i mean, if you could get into a dental school of your choice from a 5-grand-a-year state school, why bother spending 50K just for the sake of ivy league recognition. No offense. most people from top tier schools decide to go into dentistry for a) they realize that their GPAs are not good enough for med schools or b) dentistry is so hot right now as far as money goes. also, chances are that you won't find more than five predents out of 400 in first year G chem class and as time goes by, more predents pop up gradually. many come from premed and engineering. nobody is doing pre pharm or optometry at top tier schools either.

you're right. the ivy rep isn't quite worth it for dental and maybe even medicine. you can get into top health schools regardless of where you come from. you can get into a top dental school from whichever school, because there are so incredibly few from top schools anyway. hell, you stand out if you went to a top 50 school.

you can even get into a medical school from regular state schools. many do it every year. and there are only a few select medical schools that overwhelmingly prefer top tier undergrads. columbia university college of physicians and surgeons' one of them. close to 90% of the class are from big shot schools.

but that's if you know you want healthcare. many don't quite know where they want to go in life, and going to a top school affords more opportunities to explore and change career paths. if you all the sudden want to go into business, good luck getting recruited by top financial firms from any school outside the top 20 (with exception of spelman, morehouse, howard, etc), as fewer competitive firms even recruit outside there.

 

[bisconito]

If you go to dental school, why should it matter where you went to undergrad? Every undergrad has some aspect that makes it easier than any competitor. the ivies supposedly inflate grades, the state schools curve their classes. Where do you go? You should care about the school that gets you to the career/graduate school of your choice, and do what is necessary to get you there.

 

[dentstd]

If you go to dental school, why should it matter where you went to undergrad? Every undergrad has some aspect that makes it easier than any competitor. the ivies supposedly inflate grades, the state schools curve their classes. Where do you go? You should care about the school that gets you to the career/graduate school of your choice, and do what is necessary to get you there.

and in order to do that, you have to assess the various schools. by considering their cost, reputation, likelihood that it'll help you get to where you want to go in life. hence, we go back to the original question. are ivy's overrated?

if you can get where you need to in life by going to a state school, then by all means please do so. saving money matters, and it doesn't take an ivy degree to prep a tooth.

 

[sl2obel2ts]

I cant really say anything about private schools, but I did go to UC Davis and UC Berkeley for undergrad.
To be honest, UC Davis curriculum (college of engineering) was a really damn easy to me. I went to classes only for midterms. Now I look back and I feel stupid for doing that. I studied 5-10hrs before the midterm and aced the tests because the class was curved. yay for that. Everyone around me was just busy partying (maybe just different pool of friends), jigabodo is my friend too haha he knows! Noone really cared about doing research or volunteer or any kind of extracurricular.

When I transferred to UCB, I studied exactly the same way I studied in Davis for my biochem test. guess whwat, I got below the average. I don't wanna diss davis or anything, but Berkeley is way harder and more competitive compared to davis. My GPA dropped significantly. I started to going to classes, and started pull it up.

Students at more competitive school (high SAT score) are just naturally more competitive and deal things more seriously. There are more professor-student interaction, well cuz more students actually go to office hours ahaha. There are more student groups, and they are more organized. There are more opportunities (research, volunteer, internships). Companies like more competitive school graduates better (well duh..) For example, Berkeley has like 5 career fair days for different majors biotech, engineering, business etc. Davis only has ONE career fair day.

Anyway, IF I HAD $$ AND CHANCE TO GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOL, I would LOVE to go to private school over public school. Smaller classes and more resource/student. sucks I dont have money.

 

[dentstd]

I cant really say anything about private schools, but I did go to UC Davis and UC Berkeley for undergrad.
To be honest, UC Davis curriculum (college of engineering) was a really damn easy to me. I went to classes only for midterms. Now I look back and I feel stupid for doing that. I studied 5-10hrs before the midterm and aced the tests because the class was curved. yay for that. Everyone around me was just busy partying (maybe just different pool of friends), jigabodo is my friend too haha he knows! Noone really cared about doing research or volunteer or any kind of extracurricular.

When I transferred to UCB, I studied exactly the same way I studied in Davis for my biochem test. guess whwat, I got below the average. I don't wanna diss davis or anything, but Berkeley is way harder and more competitive compared to davis. My GPA dropped significantly. I started to going to classes, and started pull it up.

Students at more competitive school (high SAT score) are just naturally more competitive and deal things more seriously. There are more professor-student interaction, well cuz more students actually go to office hours ahaha. There are more student groups, and they are more organized. There are more opportunities (research, volunteer, internships). Companies like more competitive school graduates better (well duh..) For example, Berkeley has like 5 career fair days for different majors biotech, engineering, business etc. Davis only has ONE career fair day.

Anyway, IF I HAD $$ AND CHANCE TO GO TO PRIVATE SCHOOL, I would LOVE to go to private school over public school. Smaller classes and more resource/student. sucks I dont have money.

I don't expect Berkeley to be any less challenging than these "private schools" people are referring to.

 

[armorshell]

this is true, in conjuction with the above answer, generally students who attend ivy league schools have demonstrated higher levels of achievement at the high school level. but that doesn't mean there are many more smarter ppl at ivy leauges over state schools. in fact, UF ranked #2 last year in the # of national merit scholars, behind harvard.

A meaningless statistic for what you're trying to prove. UF has 35,000 undergrad students to Harvards 6000. So really, Harvard has proportionally more than 5 times as many national merit scholars.

But what do I know? I went to a public univeristy, right?

 

[TheWiredNerv]

Does your undergrad school really matter? If you are the type of person who is motivated and ready to work to get into D school then you are going to D school regardless of what undergrad school you attend.

 

[wigglytooth]

we're not graded on whether we learned the material or how well we learned the material. in math/science classes, we're graded on how well we use the material in problems and situations. in the humanities/liberal arts/etc, we're graded on the quality of our critique of the ideas taught in class and how well we synthesize our own ideas. (the level of insight, the clarity of our thoughts, etc) the only time I've ever had an exam question that asked me to recite/recall facts from lectures or textbooks was during the summer, when I took classes at the local state school.

my tests/evaluations are like that as well (i go to Penn).. you still have to have a solid foundation in the facts of a subject before being able to apply them though. therefore, if you don't understand something, you can go to these resources and you're probably going to do better. i went to tutoring for orgo and it really helped me approach the problems better.

 

[wigglytooth]

i don't think it's worth attending ivy schools if someone just wanna be a dentist 'cause you would stand a chance of weed out in one of lower science courses. personally i don't buy BS like "challenging education prepares you for your future studies". i mean, if you could get into a dental school of your choice from a 5-grand-a-year state school, why bother spending 50K just for the sake of ivy league recognition. No offense. most people from top tier schools decide to go into dentistry for a) they realize that their GPAs are not good enough for med schools or b) dentistry is so hot right now as far as money goes. also, chances are that you won't find more than five predents out of 400 in first year G chem class and as time goes by, more predents pop up gradually. many come from premed and engineering. nobody is doing pre pharm or optometry at top tier schools either.

i know someone at penn who was truly interested in optometry and is attending school for it right now. and there are people who actually are pre-dental from day one regardless of the money. rethink your stereotype.

 

[wigglytooth]

Does your undergrad school really matter? If you are the type of person who is motivated and ready to work to get into D school then you are going to D school regardless of what undergrad school you attend.

👍 Agreed. undergrad schools just give you different environments to work hard in, and it's completely personal preference as to that. i'm biased, so i'm going to say my Penn experience is super and defend it. someone else's experience can be great for them, and of course they're going to defend that. this is why we have endless debates like this...

 

[Cymbidium]

i don't think it's worth attending ivy schools if someone just wanna be a dentist 'cause you would stand a chance of weed out in one of lower science courses. personally i don't buy BS like "challenging education prepares you for your future studies". i mean, if you could get into a dental school of your choice from a 5-grand-a-year state school, why bother spending 50K just for the sake of ivy league recognition. No offense. most people from top tier schools decide to go into dentistry for a) they realize that their GPAs are not good enough for med schools or b) dentistry is so hot right now as far as money goes. also, chances are that you won't find more than five predents out of 400 in first year G chem class and as time goes by, more predents pop up gradually. many come from premed and engineering. nobody is doing pre pharm or optometry at top tier schools either.

Or, you can be really good at sports and get a full ride to the private school. Best of both worlds.

 

[Columbia07]

i don't think it's worth attending ivy schools if someone just wanna be a dentist 'cause you would stand a chance of weed out in one of lower science courses. personally i don't buy BS like "challenging education prepares you for your future studies". i mean, if you could get into a dental school of your choice from a 5-grand-a-year state school, why bother spending 50K just for the sake of ivy league recognition. No offense. most people from top tier schools decide to go into dentistry for a) they realize that their GPAs are not good enough for med schools or b) dentistry is so hot right now as far as money goes. also, chances are that you won't find more than five predents out of 400 in first year G chem class and as time goes by, more predents pop up gradually. many come from premed and engineering. nobody is doing pre pharm or optometry at top tier schools either.

I think you are completely misunderstanding the point of attending a high caliber institution. You can go to the state school, which is perfectly fine, but you may not get as much out of it as you would by going to a school that is more well-rounded. Ivy League schools, top-notch private and state schools offer a better experience in the way that there is more opportunity at these school to challenge yourself and surround yourself with individuals that are at the forefront of their fields. Speaking from personal experience (attended Columbia), I can tell you that high caliber schools give their students more opportunity for research, better job placement, better post-grad placement and the experience of being surrounded by individuals who will constantly challenge you to better yourself.

I don't blame you for your view of Ivy League schools--you don't know any better. In fact, most people share this same view. If you had attended an Ivy League school I think you would probably be singing a different tune. Also, I would avoid making HUGE generalizations about schools you obviously don't know anything about. Physicians, dentists, optometrists, nurses, truck drivers, 1st grade teachers, plumbers, politicians and so on come from Ivy Leagues and podunk state schools.

 

[armorshell]

Also, I would avoid making HUGE generalizations about schools you obviously don't know anything about.

Speaking from personal experience (attended Columbia), I can tell you that high caliber schools give their students more opportunity for research, better job placement, better post-grad placement and the experience of being surrounded by individuals who will constantly challenge you to better yourself.

'sup kettle? There's no way you can separate out personal work ethic and drive to succeed from the name brand attached to a school. Students who have the ability to excel will do so, regardless of where they attend, and to a similar magnitude.

Of course, it's not like I have evidence for that or anything...

*coughJulie Berry Cullen, Brian A. Jacob and Steven D. Levitt; Econometrica, 2006, 74(5), pp. 1191-230.cough*

 

[TheWiredNerv]

Hadouken!

 

[dentstd]

Does your undergrad school really matter? If you are the type of person who is motivated and ready to work to get into D school then you are going to D school regardless of what undergrad school you attend.

undergrad school doesn't matter in that sense, but neither does being motivated and ready to work, in a sense. there's a vast difference between between driven and being capable. there are many people out there who are ambitious and driven. but many of those can also be without talent, intellect, whatever.

how many people have studied their asses off just to get a C on an exam, 17AA, 26 MCAT, 900 SAT, etc? drive is only one aspect of the game. talent's the other.

 

[armorshell]

Same difference. If you don't have drive and intellect you're not going to be able to get into a top school in the first place.

 

[dentstd]

difference is the masses of the ambitious but without talent. too many in the world are told go for it when they have no shot in hell while they should be pursuing their strengths.

ambitious in your field vs ambitious in general

 

[armorshell]

difference is the masses of the ambitious but without talent. too many in the world are told go for it when they have no shot in hell while they should be pursuing their strengths.

ambitious in your field vs ambitious in general

At this point you're spitting hairs. Try reading the paper I posted. The students who has the ability and drive to get into the so-called "better" schools, but did not go performed equally as well as the students who actually went to the "better" schools as measured by standardized testing.

 

[sublimegd]

Hadouken!

awesome

The major difference between ivy leagues and state schools is the ratio of dorks to normal people. The second major difference is the ratio of pretentious people to normal people. The third difference is the difficulty of the academics. Really though, how much harder can you make the science course content? Do Ivy league students know more physics, chemistry, biology? Maybe, but I doubt it has much to do with the classes they took.

 

[Columbia07]

'sup kettle? There's no way you can separate out personal work ethic and drive to succeed from the name brand attached to a school. Students who have the ability to excel will do so, regardless of where they attend, and to a similar magnitude.

Of course, it's not like I have evidence for that or anything...

*coughJulie Berry Cullen, Brian A. Jacob and Steven D. Levitt; Econometrica, 2006, 74(5), pp. 1191-230.cough*

Armorshell,

I read the article the last time you posted it. Anyways, I'm not trying to equate the school to how well people do -- this is based solely on the person. I was simply making the point that Ivy League schools and some very good private and public institutions provide their students with more opportunity, which can lead to more personal success on a level that cannot be measured by standardized exams. I completely understand your point. This same article can be related to dental school. People tend to believe that going to Penn for dental school they are automatically going to get a 99 on Part 1, which is just complete ignorance.

I also wanted to entertain the response someone had about "how difficult or easy a school can make a science course?" I attended a pretty competitive undergrad but took a biochemistry course over the summer at CSULB and saw just how easy a school can make a course; however, this is one course, so I'm not sure how easy or hard the other science courses are at CSULB, but from my experience you can cram a lot into a course or very little. Also, you need to think about curves. This can make a class much harder than it would be at another institution where students are less competitive (read: not as bright).

But, in the end people, this subjected has been debated over and over again. A big name school will help you IF you do well. Don't attend a pricey, competitive school just for the name if you don't think you can hang. Think about it, not everyone attending an Ivy League school was a merit scholar and valedictorian.

 

[sublimegd]

Armorshell,
I also wanted to entertain the response someone had about "how difficult or easy a school can make a science course?" I attended a pretty competitive undergrad but took a biochemistry course over the summer at CSULB and saw just how easy a school can make a course; however, this is one course, so I'm not sure how easy or hard the other science courses are at CSULB, but from my experience you can cram a lot into a course or very little. Also, you need to think about curves. This can make a class much harder than it would be at another institution where students are less competitive (read: not as bright).

I suppose what I meant to say was how much harder can a school make the "subject," ie biochem, physics... I go to a public school and I love the fact that theres some really noncompetitive (read: half ******ed) people in my classes. Some of my pre-req science courses were curved to a laughable extent to accommodate the noncompetitive. I'm not denying this. What I mean is that I doubt Columbia has a more difficult F=ma equation than CSULB. Sure prof's can make tests more "difficult" by testing how well you apply concepts (how competitive you are) instead of rote memorization... But that seems to be testing how smart you are instead of how well you learned the material. And that just goes back to what the turtle was saying... I don't think Ivy league schools teach their students how to be smart.

As far as not covering the same amount of material in a course... I think most public schools cover the same material. Summer courses are notorious for skipping through material deemed less important.

 

[jay47]

Wow, I think I got a comprehensive answer from the original post! I didn't mean to cause such a stir actually, I just was interested in finding out what those schools offered that mine may not. Thanks for the help guys (and gals), I feel much more enlightened!

 

[jay47]

Do you have a 4.0 with a curve? A lot of state schools with offer you just that - a curve. Oh yeah, and multiple choice tests! (I did my dental pre-reqs at my local state school and was pretty amazed by those 2 facts).

And I guess to reply to this question, I think that I actually have had an outright A in every single class but one, which was honors chem 102, but that shouldn't even count because he was trying to fail everyone! Anyways I feel very heppy with my choice to go to a state school because

1. I couldn't afford the cost of private/ivy league

2. Looking back, I see how sorry my high school really was and how I may not have even been able to get into one of the Ivies

3. There are a lot of people here (I would estimate an average of 200 people in every one of my classes, except honors) which truly and honestly makes you work your butt off to learn the material alone.



The 3rd point is probably the most important, beause coming out of high school I always was the one asking questions and trying to get the teacher to teach (however little they did) but in college I have effectively taught myself, but with good guidance from a teacher because they aren't able to spoon feed 200 students every day.



Is there anyone who is truly disappointed with their choice of schools?

 

[nanilla]

I think its important to go to a challenging school if only for the ego check. Alot of times kids coming from high school and even college have an inflated ego and have never had to face adversity and when they get into dental school it is a big shock. I have a buddy who is now a 5th year chem e major at ga tech and when he took physics I he had a 71 % in the class while the class average was around a 58 % he went into the professor and asked what his grade would be with a curve, expecting a response of an "A" or "B" at the minumum. The professor however said no curve would be given and half the class would fail, or not be able to move on, "D". I've never had quite that bad an experience but have had many classes with test averages in the 30's and 40's and while you know their will be a curve studying as hard as you can, thinking you know ALL the material then failing miserably is discouraging.

 

[dentstd]

and oh...intellect is only part the issue. we're not all top students. the vast majority of our students range from well above average to genius. one thing I noticed is that many, many, many students in our class were superb writers, as demonstrated by the personal statement. much more mature, developed and effective than most.

 

[NewMexDent]

I've had a couple professors present this type of quote in many of my classes:

"We are shut up in schools and college recitation rooms for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bellyfull of words and do not know a thing. The things taught in schools and colleges are not an education, but the means of education."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Their point was that it really doesn't matter what you learn in college (the facts, numbers, dates, etc.) because you'll probably forget it all right after taking the final. What is important is learning how to learn - coming to the realization that there is a wealth of information out there and, if you want, you have the ability to learn it. College, basically, is just a way to practice all those skills that help us learn. I think this type of education can be attained at any place of learning - Ivy or not - as long as you put a little effort into the experience.

Here's another quote that I like:

"Some people get an eduction without going to college; the rest get it after they get out."

-Mark Twain

 

[tastybeef]

"I think its important to go to a challenging school if only for the ego check. Alot of times kids coming from high school and even college have an inflated ego and have never had to face adversity and when they get into dental school it is a big shock. I have a buddy who is now a 5th year chem e major at ga tech and when he took physics I he had a 71 % in the class while the class average was around a 58 % he went into the professor and asked what his grade would be with a curve, expecting a response of an "A" or "B" at the minumum. The professor however said no curve would be given and half the class would fail, or not be able to move on, "D". I've never had quite that bad an experience but have had many classes with test averages in the 30's and 40's and while you know their will be a curve studying as hard as you can, thinking you know ALL the material then failing miserably is discouraging."


Agreed. Almost all bio majors at Berkeley start out as premeds or prehealth of some sort. However, after general chem, calc, or ochem, a large proportion rethink their career options. It's good to get a reality check.

 

[997GT3]

"I think its important to go to a challenging school if only for the ego check. Alot of times kids coming from high school and even college have an inflated ego and have never had to face adversity and when they get into dental school it is a big shock. I have a buddy who is now a 5th year chem e major at ga tech and when he took physics I he had a 71 % in the class while the class average was around a 58 % he went into the professor and asked what his grade would be with a curve, expecting a response of an "A" or "B" at the minumum. The professor however said no curve would be given and half the class would fail, or not be able to move on, "D". I've never had quite that bad an experience but have had many classes with test averages in the 30's and 40's and while you know their will be a curve studying as hard as you can, thinking you know ALL the material then failing miserably is discouraging."


Agreed. Almost all bio majors at Berkeley start out as premeds or prehealth of some sort. However, after general chem, calc, or ochem, a large proportion rethink their career options. It's good to get a reality check.

This guy is telling the truth. If you're in a class that curves or at least has a low benchmark for a passing mark, you have no right to complain. Although Harvard is known for inflation, they go through the whole John McMurry organic chem book in just one semester with no exam questions in multiple choice.