oversaturation

[pudgie84]

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so it seems most people on this forum agree that oversaturation is one of the biggest problems optometry is facing right now. there were more than a few members who mentioned that dentistry took action against oversaturation in their field by limiting the number of dental schools/students. i am wondering how they went about doing this...if someone has some knowledge they could share or direct me to a good source? as more and more optometry schools keep opening, it seems imperative that we should take similar actions. any thoughts, ideas, concerns, etc?

 

[q1we3]

This topic has been discussed to death. There is nothing that we can do because AOA does not believe that there is an oversupply. Maybe email your state association or AOA for explanation on that.

 

[pudgie84]

This topic has been discussed to death. There is nothing that we can do because AOA does not believe that there is an oversupply. Maybe email your state association or AOA for explanation on that.

🙁

Is AOA the only route to take action?

 

[Jibslider]

It's a huge problem, that is only getting worse.

 

[PBEA]

The National Center for Educational Statistics (2011) reports the following graduation numbers.

MDs..................15,938 (1985)............16,356 (2009)
Dentistry............ 5,046 (1985)............. 5,062 (2009)
Podiatry .............. 612 (1985)................491 (2009)
Veterinary........... 2,270 (1985).............2,478 (2009)
Chiropractic......... 3,395 (1985).............2,601 (2009)

Total enrollment....27,261 (1985).............26,988 (2009) (net decrease)

Optometry..............1,029 (1985 per Abt.)..............1,763 (2012 per ASCO)

thats a 56% increase in OD grads, while other fields are holding steady.........amazing

 

[Jason K]

This topic has been discussed to death. There is nothing that we can do because AOA does not believe that there is an oversupply. Maybe email your state association or AOA for explanation on that.

I'm not so sure of this. The AOA publicly states that they "don't know about oversupply," but one has to wonder if you took a secret poll of AOA "leaders," what honest response would be. Personally, I think the AOA knows there is a serious oversupply issue, but they feel it serves the interest of the AOA to claim otherwise, or at least to say they aren't sure. I've actually heard a number of them claim there is a shortage, which is somewhat like saying the Earth is running out of cockroaches. In short, I don't think the folks at the AOA are stupid, they're just like any politician; they're motivated by self interest over public interest in many/most cases.

Regardless of the AOA's public position, I think the numbers, posted above by PBEA, speak for themselves.

 

[thecgrblue]

Guys but we own 3D!!!! OMG!!!!! I'm so excited wooohoooo!!!

It doesn't matter that no one will be able to get jobs!!! 3D will save us!!!!! Yay past inept AOA president!

And so you're back
From outer space
I just walked in to find you here
With that sad look upon your face

Welcome back, Shrunek.

 

[q1we3]

And so you're back
From outer space
I just walked in to find you here
With that sad look upon your face

Welcome back, Shrunek.

What happened to that guy? Is it really him? Did he get banned?

 

[pudgie84]

i'm kinda prone to pipe dreams so feel free to give me a reality smack if needed, but can't we do something about this on a grassroots level? i mean, the AOA had to start somewhere. so can't concerned ODs and students work together to try to fight the recent explotion of school openings? even if it's just banding together and bombarding the powers that be with letters, petitions, etc. it might not make a difference at first, but maybe the movement would grow and eventually have some kind of impact. it doesn't hurt to try, right?

 

[thecgrblue]

What happened to that guy? Is it really him? Did he get banned?

Hahaha...like 5 times over. Its kind of like watching a streaker during a sports game.

His interruption is annoying, but watching him running from security and having a good time somewhat makes up for the interruption.

 

[thiaeyemd]

if the AOA is increasing OD numbers so much, you guys will definitely become massively oversaturated and your profession will change...most often for the worse. Ask the pharmacists and see how increasing their numbers worked for them...

 

[Jason K]

if the AOA is increasing OD numbers so much, you guys will definitely become massively oversaturated and your profession will change...most often for the worse. Ask the pharmacists and see how increasing their numbers worked for them...

It's not so much that the AOA is increasing numbers through its actions, it's that they're doing so through inaction, or rather ambivalence. Their stance, with regard to the OD numbers, is that they "just don't know for certain," and that there might actually be "an OD shortage." Both prospects are usually viewed as being absolutely ridiculous by anyone in the real world of optometry. Their arguments usually hinge on the assumption that every human being in the nation will seek eye care from an OD every year, for the rest of their lives, or that every baby-boomer diabetic patient will come running to their OD every year, with a cornucopia of procedures billed to medical insurance.

The fact is, many people have complete vision and medical coverage for eye care, and never use it. If you read positions by AOA officials, they ALWAYS have about 37 "if" statements. "If all 300 million US citizens seek eye care," "If every diabetic patient sees their OD every year," "If everyone with a BV issue saw an OD,"....etc. It's always a bunch of best case scenario assumptions.

So, until the AOA comes out and says something like "We're all set, the current supply of ODs meets or exceeds the current needs and that of the foreseeable future," investors will still hedge their bets on new schools, creating more and more ODs with pure profit in mind. - Pretty sad.

 

[midgi97]

The National Center for Educational Statistics (2011) reports the following graduation numbers.

MDs..................15,938 (1985)............16,356 (2009)
Dentistry............ 5,046 (1985)............. 5,062 (2009)
Podiatry .............. 612 (1985)................491 (2009)
Veterinary........... 2,270 (1985).............2,478 (2009)
Chiropractic......... 3,395 (1985).............2,601 (2009)

Total enrollment....27,261 (1985).............26,988 (2009) (net decrease)

Optometry..............1,029 (1985 per Abt.)..............1,763 (2012 per ASCO)

thats a 56% increase in OD grads, while other fields are holding steady.........amazing

I agree on this topic, however you cannot really compare the percent of OD grads to other fields with these numbers because you're comparing 2012 OD numbers with 2009 numbers for the rest of the fields. This is not going to give an acurate representation to compare the values to other fields.

 

[thecgrblue]

.

 

[Loptometriste]

Chiropractic schools have 2 or 3 entering classes a year. Fall, Winter, and Spring terms. It is 3 and a third years for completion. The city I live in has a chiropractor almost on every street if not two. Sometimes there are 3 all in the same complex--but all separate practices. That makes it seem like there is an over saturation of D.C.'s in comparison! The list of D.C.'s is longer than O.D.'s here.

 

[Loptometriste]

Just wanted to say that the U.S. population has also increased by at least 60,000,000 if not more from 1985 to now. There might not be an increase in M.D.'s, but I bet there is an increase of Physician's Assistants and Nurse Practitioners that are greatly affecting healthcare.

 

[CL Doc]

I agree on this topic, however you cannot really compare the percent of OD grads to other fields with these numbers because you're comparing 2012 OD numbers with 2009 numbers for the rest of the fields. This is not going to give an acurate representation to compare the values to other fields.

Ok...if that makes you feel better, but these numbers don't include graduates from the new schools. There will be several hundred more grads per year starting with this graduating class.

 

[velo2010]

join the AOS. it's grassroots

www.optometricsociety.org

 

[Jason K]

Just wanted to say that the U.S. population has also increased by at least 60,000,000 if not more from 1985 to now. There might not be an increase in M.D.'s, but I bet there is an increase of Physician's Assistants and Nurse Practitioners that are greatly affecting healthcare.

This argument has failed, time and time again. The same allied health additions can be applied to optometry as well. We can use refracting techs and assistants to allow us to see more patients in less time. There are far too many providers in optometry, given the patient demand. The patient demand, despite what could theoretically happen, is not increasing. You might like to think that it will, but it won't.

If you buy into that the AOA and the schools are telling you, you'll live to regret it one day.

 

[CL Doc]

This argument has failed, time and time again. The same allied health additions can be applied to optometry as well. We can use refracting techs and assistants to allow us to see more patients in less time. There are far too many providers in optometry, given the patient demand. The patient demand, despite what could theoretically happen, is not increasing. You might like to think that it will, but it won't.

If you buy into that the AOA and the schools are telling you, you'll live to regret it one day.

Oversaturation is a problem not likely to be addressed until ODs are homeless and begging for food. At that point the AOA steps in with its "each one feed one program".

 

[KHE]

Lmfao

 

[Tippytoe]

The National Center for Educational Statistics (2011) reports the following graduation numbers.

MDs..................15,938 (1985)............16,356 (2009)
Dentistry............ 5,046 (1985)............. 5,062 (2009)
Podiatry .............. 612 (1985)................491 (2009)
Veterinary........... 2,270 (1985).............2,478 (2009)
Chiropractic......... 3,395 (1985).............2,601 (2009)

Total enrollment....27,261 (1985).............26,988 (2009) (net decrease)

Optometry..............1,029 (1985 per Abt.)..............1,763 (2012 per ASCO)

thats a 56% increase in OD grads, while other fields are holding steady.........amazing

Very interesting. The numbers don't lie. And what younger folks should realize is that back in 1985, ODs were making a killing selling $300 glasses and $400 contact lenses while paying a receptionist $3.35/hr (very little insurance to hassle with) and charging $40 for a full exam (the same as many commercial stores locations charge today). They could make a good living seeing 6-8 patients per day.

Now, our material income has been cut by about 60% (online and commercial companies) so most of us would starve and go out of business seeing 8 patients. So we have to see 15-20+ per day to make it (unless you are one of those dishonest docs that can sucker everyone into new progressive glasses every year). To do this we need multiple $15/hr ($20/after benefits) employees. The profit margin is MUCH smaller.

So we have many more ODs in the profession, each trying to see many more patients WITH many more ODs soon to join the ranks.

That, my friends, is a receipe for disaster any way you look at it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm glad I'm closer to the end of my career than the beginning.

 

[NotOptoTroll]

Very interesting. The numbers don't lie. And what younger folks should realize is that back in 1985, ODs were making a killing selling $300 glasses and $400 contact lenses while paying a receptionist $3.35/hr (very little insurance to hassle with) and charging $40 for a full exam (the same as many commercial stores locations charge today). They could make a good living seeing 6-8 patients per day.

Now, our material income has been cut by about 60% (online and commercial companies) so most of us would starve and go out of business seeing 8 patients. So we have to see 15-20+ per day to make it (unless you are one of those dishonest docs that can sucker everyone into new progressive glasses every year). To do this we need multiple $15/hr ($20/after benefits) employees. The profit margin is MUCH smaller.

So we have many more ODs in the profession, each trying to see many more patients WITH many more ODs soon to join the ranks.

That, my friends, is a receipe for disaster any way you look at it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm glad I'm closer to the end of my career than the beginning.

All fields are getting worse. Its this little thing called economic turmoil. What is causing this? Well for one, less intelligent people are reproducing at a faster rate than intelligent ones. When you look at animals, some of them have high fecundity meaning they have many offspring. So they value quantity over quality in their offspring. Other animals only have a few offspring but raise them and take care of them very well. They value quality. The same differences in fecundity can be found in humans. However, the ones that produce quantity actually get an advantage because the government gives more hand outs to those that have more kids. Hence, the net effect is quantity over quality of our future generations.

Social welfare just won't cut it in the long term.

 

[q1we3]

All fields are getting worse. Its this little thing called economic turmoil. What is causing this? Well for one, less intelligent people are reproducing at a faster rate than intelligent ones. When you look at animals, some of them have high fecundity meaning they have many offspring. So they value quantity over quality in their offspring. Other animals only have a few offspring but raise them and take care of them very well. They value quality. The same differences in fecundity can be found in humans. However, the ones that produce quantity actually get an advantage because the government gives more hand outs to those that have more kids. Hence, the net effect is quantity over quality of our future generations.

Social welfare just won't cut it in the long term.

lmao, the sad part is he is actually right.

 

[CL Doc]

All fields are getting worse. Its this little thing called economic turmoil. What is causing this? Well for one, less intelligent people are reproducing at a faster rate than intelligent ones. When you look at animals, some of them have high fecundity meaning they have many offspring. So they value quantity over quality in their offspring. Other animals only have a few offspring but raise them and take care of them very well. They value quality. The same differences in fecundity can be found in humans. However, the ones that produce quantity actually get an advantage because the government gives more hand outs to those that have more kids. Hence, the net effect is quantity over quality of our future generations.

Social welfare just won't cut it in the long term.

Shnurek is back...........

 

[Jason K]

The same differences in fecundity can be found in humans. However, the ones that produce quantity actually get an advantage because the government gives more hand outs to those that have more kids. Hence, the net effect is quantity over quality of our future generations.

Social welfare just won't cut it in the long term.

Keep Obama around for another term, and we'll really start to see what social welfare looks like. We haven't seen anything yet, he's not even truly started.