Overworking of vet students by universities

[Magnum]

---

Members do not see this ad.

So at my university, vet students appear to be overworked, as students are required to perform their normal clinical rotations during the day and then are also regularly scheduled for ICU shifts and ward shifts at nights and on weekends. These shifts are no more than walking, cleaning, feeding, and maybe giving meds. Students are often therefore worked for sometimes as long as several days straight. It appears that my school is doing this with financial motives, as to me it seems like these circumstances are actually detrimental to us learning. Does anyone have any information if these type of situations have been fought before? Are there any legal guidelines that could be used to address this? I am seriously considering starting some type of union-type organization for veterinary students that allows us to pursue our rights as students. I feel that since we are students, we are often walked all over and not given the due respect and rights we deserve.

 

[frozen_canadian]

Sorry...but the first thought I had was 'meh.'
Disrespected as a student? Wait until the real world hits.
(I realize this isn't helpful but just had a ***** day in clinics and am on here venting 😉 )

 

[Magnum]

I get that there is a lot of disrespect out in the real world. I worked in general practice and emergency for many years and saw this first hand countless times. I even had someone prank call our office continually from the front lobby one day. But on clinics, we should not be disrespected by clinicians. We have worked very hard to get where we are, and they of all people should know that and also know how difficult it is to get respect. We are also paying a lot of money, and I am sure not paying a lot of money to be treated like crap.

 

[david594]

Your status says pre-med. Are you currently a vet student?

 

[Magnum]

Yeah, sorry, that is an old status. I am currently a sophmore in vet school.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I have to say it is indeed something that worries me. I definitely went through some rotations in vet school where I was lucky to get any sleep at all for two to three weeks. It isn't healthy, and it isn't necessary. You can go on and on about just "sucking it up" and "well what did you expect, it is fourth year" - but that, IMO is no excuse for working students to the point of exhaustion, especially when many of the tasks can be done by technicians/assistants (as they would be done in a clinic anyways). But, being that vet students are free labor (nay, we actually PAY to work that hard), they are more than willing to use them. People make mistakes when overworked. Of course, as a student, the clinician is usually there is catch them, but still. You also simply can't learn when you work a 14 hour surgery day and then have a 12 hour overnight ICU shift followed by 14 more hours of surgery the next day. Your brain is mush. That is why they put hour caps on human medicine residency hours (although they are not always followed) - I have seen no such caps for veterinary residents or students.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I have seen no such caps for veterinary residents or students.

I hear that SCAVMA or SAVMA or whatever it is (I don't remember the diff) is trying to do something to cap the hours/week during clinical rotations. I personally don't have much to do with anything SCAVMA related other than that I'm a member, so someone more informed can maybe chime in about how that's supposed to work.

 

[scb44f]

I don't know much about what is or could be in the works about that, but I do know the recent laws geared toward limiting med student abuse have been somewhat helpful, though definitely not always followed. It would be great if something could be implemented for vet students and residents as well. It's just not safe for anyone for people to be working who are running on little to no sleep/food.

 

[squeegee]

You also simply can't learn when you work a 14 hour surgery day and then have a 12 hour overnight ICU shift followed by 14 more hours of surgery the next day.

pardon my ignorance since I won't be in senior year until May, but what rotation would you be on that has you doing surgery and ICU at the same time? here I believe you have just one rotation section at a time (as in, if you're on soft tissue surgery you're on soft tissue surgery only for the two week block) and if your patient stays in the hospital it gets transferred to another service, like ICU where they will be cared for by the students on ICU that week.

 

[lailanni]

pardon my ignorance since I won't be in senior year until May, but what rotation would you be on that has you doing surgery and ICU at the same time? here I believe you have just one rotation section at a time (as in, if you're on soft tissue surgery you're on soft tissue surgery only for the two week block) and if your patient stays in the hospital it gets transferred to another service, like ICU where they will be cared for by the students on ICU that week.

You will be on one service and still have ICU/ER shifts.

Here, you can be on surgery, cardio, neuro, community, etc and you will have 3-4 required ICU/ER shifts on top of your regular duties during the rotation.

For me, this meant getting 2 hours of sleep right before I personally did 6 hours of surgery during a 14 hour day. My ER shift took way longer that it should have, and then I had to stay for paperwork the intern wanted done before 7am the next day. I was looking forward to doing my spays, but I ended up hating it because I was just so tired.

I agree that when you're tired you make mistakes. I know because I caught myself just about being worthless during an 80+ hour week.

I think that we need to get as much hands on experience as possible. But I also think that we need to find a better system.

 

[katryn]

You will be on one service and still have ICU/ER shifts.

Here, you can be on surgery, cardio, neuro, community, etc and you will have 3-4 required ICU/ER shifts on top of your regular duties during the rotation.

I think that we need to get as much hands on experience as possible. But I also think that we need to find a better system.

UT is currently talking about changing this by the time 2014 hits clinics . The large animal division already has a specific 2 week over night rotation that you do separately from any other rotation, and there are rumors flying that they will be implementing this system over in SA and doing away with the additional overnight shifts during other rotations.

 

[Bill59]

I don't know much about what is or could be in the works about that, but I do know the recent laws geared toward limiting med student abuse have been somewhat helpful, though definitely not always followed.

Are you referring to the ACGME duty hour standards? If so, 2 points. First, these are not laws they are guidelines established by the private council that accredits MD/DO residencies in the US and are therefore voluntary. A few states such as New York have laws limiting residency hours but most don't.

Second, these guidelines apply to Residents (that is, doctors) not students. The difference is doctors have legal responsibility for directing patient care. Student's don't.

That's not to say there are educational benefits to limiting duty hours for students. But you could also make the argument it's detrimental for students to stay up all night studying for a test.

In veterinary medicine we don't even have guidelines limiting hours for residents/interns, although I think we should. I was in house for 36 hr or more at a stretch and 100+ hr/week multiple times during residency. I'm more worried about stuff like that than anything I ever did as a student.

 

[Magnum]

But you could also make the argument it's detrimental for students to stay up all night studying for a test.
.

The only thing I would say to this is that students have the choice of staying up late or not to study for a test. With rotations followed by ICU shifts, you don't. You have to do them regardless.

This is why I think that some form of union-type organization is needed for students to seek better conditions/pursue their rights. I have had problems with my school doing certain things that violated laws, and when I pointed them out, they basically ignored me and continued on with the policies. It was only after I met with individuals from the entire university administration and the chief counsel for the university did they actually stop those policies.

SCAVMA may be great to many, but my experience with them has been less than ideal. It seems that unless there is some financial gain somewhere, at least at my school, they are unwilling to do anything. In addition, they have their own agenda.

Anyways, long story short, I want to start some kind of organization. Maybe get something going nationwide that says, hey, we aren't going to be walked on. We are not even being paid. We are paying a ton of money to be overworked and run into the ground sometimes, and this is unnecessary. I am here for an education, not to get sick from stress and lack of sleep.

 

[Magnum]

I think these are some guidelines to start with. They are the ACGME requirements for human medical residency programs. If I am understanding correctly, in order for a residency to be accredited by this organization, the residency program must follow these guidelines. There are specific guidelines regarding duty hours, which I think would be a good start. Do I think that there should be some changes? Yes, as residents are being paid (although not that much), while vet students are paying 27,0000+ per year. Big difference.

Here is the link:

http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/dutyHours/dh_index.asp

 

[scb44f]

Are you referring to the ACGME duty hour standards? If so, 2 points. First, these are not laws they are guidelines established by the private council that accredits MD/DO residencies in the US and are therefore voluntary. A few states such as New York have laws limiting residency hours but most don't.

Second, these guidelines apply to Residents (that is, doctors) not students. The difference is doctors have legal responsibility for directing patient care. Student's don't.

That's not to say there are educational benefits to limiting duty hours for students. But you could also make the argument it's detrimental for students to stay up all night studying for a test.

In veterinary medicine we don't even have guidelines limiting hours for residents/interns, although I think we should. I was in house for 36 hr or more at a stretch and 100+ hr/week multiple times during residency. I'm more worried about stuff like that than anything I ever did as a student.

Yeah, that's what I meant. It has been a while since I've talked about it with my SO so the details were a little fuzzy and I really needed to get off the computer last night so I didn't research it again. I agree though, that something comparable should exist for vet residents. As for med/vet students, there is certainly a lot to be learned from spending time in clinics and whatnot, but there has to be a safer way to do it. I don't think it's wise for anyone running on 2 hours of sleep to go in and perform or assist in surgeries...

 

[cowgirla]

I hear that SCAVMA or SAVMA or whatever it is (I don't remember the diff) is trying to do something to cap the hours/week during clinical rotations. I personally don't have much to do with anything SCAVMA related other than that I'm a member, so someone more informed can maybe chime in about how that's supposed to work.

SAVMA.
http://www.avma.org/savma/policies-endorsements/SAVMA-Duty-Hours-Guidelines.asp

No idea what the relevance is of this, or if its ever enforced, but a limit to 80 hours would be nice.

 

[Magnum]

It seems that they are just guidelines and schools have the option of abiding by them nor not. The difference with the ACGME guidelines is that they must be followed in all programs accredited by this organization. The guidelines set forth by SAVMA are pointless if there is no penalty for not implementing them. I think the only way to implement them is that they must be set forth by the AVMA, as vet schools are accredited by this organization. With ACGME, there are consequences when programs do not abide by the duty hour guidelines.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

SAVMA.
http://www.avma.org/savma/policies-endorsements/SAVMA-Duty-Hours-Guidelines.asp

No idea what the relevance is of this, or if its ever enforced, but a limit to 80 hours would be nice.

Oh my God. Laughable.

A thirty minute lunch break for every 6 hours of work?

A ten-hour time period provided between all daily duty periods and after in-house call.

Students must be provided with one day in seven free from all clinical responsibilities, averaged over the course of the length of the rotation.

Absolutely ****ing laughable. Lunch? Hah! Lunch during Sx rotation was stuffing a granola bar in your face while running down the hall in between post op treatments, scrubbing in, and new patients. I never got a single day off, beside my allotted break block, in the entire fourth year. I was allowed only 5 days of leave for interviews and to be sick on. That's it. Anything else was an unexcused absence. Ten hour time period? Try 5-6 hours - to sleep after working from 6am to 8pm and then having to come back for 11pm treatments. And that is just the students. Interns and resident are worked just as hard, if not harder. Thank God I am in a specialty where I can have a semi-normal life.

Just another example of how positively useless the AVMA/SAVMA is. Are they going to try and "enforce" this? Hell no. They are too busy trying to increase class sizes and water down the profession.

 

[katryn]

Oh my God. Laughable.

A thirty minute lunch break for every 6 hours of work?

A ten-hour time period provided between all daily duty periods and after in-house call.

Students must be provided with one day in seven free from all clinical responsibilities, averaged over the course of the length of the rotation.

Wow.......that could happen, in our wildest dreams. I know of certain rotations where the clinicians don't get treated to these guidelines either. So really, it's not just the students and residents.

 

[Magnum]

It needs to happen. That is where we come in.

 

[skittles12]

UT is currently talking about changing this by the time 2014 hits clinics . The large animal division already has a specific 2 week over night rotation that you do separately from any other rotation, and there are rumors flying that they will be implementing this system over in SA and doing away with the additional overnight shifts during other rotations.

I so, so hope this is true. I'm exhausted just by the end of the clinical exposure week we have as 2nd years. I just can't learn anything with no sleep or food. I think it's important to have exposure to a lot of cases, but there has to be a better system. I knew that 4th year would be a lot of work, but I didn't know how much until clinical exposure. What really worries me is that lack of sleep sets off my migraines....definitely need to acclimate to no sleep before 4th year arrives.....

 

[david594]

It needs to happen. That is where we come in.

Here are bigger educational issues that need to fixed before this becomes a priority.

 

[karmapple]

I'm pretty horrifed you guys have to work ER/ICU shifts while on other rotations. How are you supposed to work all day after working all night? How are ER and ICU not their own separate rotations? They are here! And how do you end up never getting weekends off? We have several rotations that require no weekend duties at all. I heard fourth year is rough, but I didn't know it could be THAT rough. Reading this makes me glad I chose Ohio State!

 

[jmo1012]

note to self: look into this before deciding on a 4th year school...

 

[Ben and Me]

I'm pretty horrifed you guys have to work ER/ICU shifts while on other rotations. How are you supposed to work all day after working all night? How are ER and ICU not their own separate rotations? They are here! And how do you end up never getting weekends off? We have several rotations that require no weekend duties at all. I heard fourth year is rough, but I didn't know it could be THAT rough. Reading this makes me glad I chose Ohio State!

Penn is the same way, as far as I know. Some rotations have really long hours (like Large Animal Surgery) but at least you're not working a separate ICU or ER shift afterwards, from what I can tell, since those are separate rotations (for the large and small animal hospitals).

I wonder if it's a caseload thing? Penn and Ohio State have pretty high caseloads, so maybe they have the $$ to support technicians, and both are in urban areas (so finding good technicians to work overnight might be less of an issue than with a more rural school)? No idea -- just throwing ideas out there.

 

[katryn]

On the small animal side the ER shifts are typically covered by the lower caseload rotations. But some things like middle of the night surgeries are covered by one of the students on surgery rotation, so you may spend all day in the OR just to be called up in the middle of the night too. And even if your rotation doesn't have a high caseload, you still end up being there an insane amount of hours in a row.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm pretty horrifed you guys have to work ER/ICU shifts while on other rotations. How are you supposed to work all day after working all night? How are ER and ICU not their own separate rotations? They are here! And how do you end up never getting weekends off? We have several rotations that require no weekend duties at all. I heard fourth year is rough, but I didn't know it could be THAT rough. Reading this makes me glad I chose Ohio State!

Some school don't have separate ones. Not sure why. As for weekends (at least at my school), you are responsible for coming in to round in the morning and doing treatments on your patients that are in recovery or ICU (7am, 7pm, and 11pm are absolutely required, but you are supposed to do as much as you can). So yes, you don't spend ALL your time there, but you still have to come in. If you are lucky and on a service where all your animals are outpatients, you usually only have to come in to round.

 

[karmapple]

Some school don't have separate ones. Not sure why. As for weekends (at least at my school), you are responsible for coming in to round in the morning and doing treatments on your patients that are in recovery or ICU (7am, 7pm, and 11pm are absolutely required, but you are supposed to do as much as you can). So yes, you don't spend ALL your time there, but you still have to come in. If you are lucky and on a service where all your animals are outpatients, you usually only have to come in to round.

Ah, okay. If we are on a rotation with only outpatients (Derm, Radiology, Community Practice, etc.), we aren't required to come in at all on the weekend. But if we have inpatients, we do have to come in on weekends to take care of them as well. Although if they are in the ICU, the veterinary technicians and senior student on ICU rotation do most of the treatments. It seems silly to make you come in if you have no patients. Either way, vet students = source of free labor.

 

[karmapple]

On the small animal side the ER shifts are typically covered by the lower caseload rotations. But some things like middle of the night surgeries are covered by one of the students on surgery rotation, so you may spend all day in the OR just to be called up in the middle of the night too. And even if your rotation doesn't have a high caseload, you still end up being there an insane amount of hours in a row.

We also have to sign up to be on call a few days out of our surgery rotation, so you can be called up in the middle of the night. Just in case you thought OSU students were getting off too light! We usually have 5 - 6 students on a rotation at a time, so the students rotate being on call. Hopefully you guys get a break from being on call as well. It doesn't sound fun. Doing an internship after graduation has ceased to be an option for me now that I know the hours they endure.

 

[pooter]

I wonder if it's a caseload thing? Penn and Ohio State have pretty high caseloads, so maybe they have the $$ to support technicians, and both are in urban areas (so finding good technicians to work overnight might be less of an issue than with a more rural school)? No idea -- just throwing ideas out there.

Plus, they have all of our money. Not that I'm complaining. The extra 60K I'm dropping on Penn will be all worth it if I get to sleep a little during 4th year.

 

[Ben and Me]

Plus, they have all of our money. Not that I'm complaining. The extra 60K I'm dropping on Penn will be all worth it if I get to sleep a little during 4th year.

I'm pretty sure they still work us pretty darn hard.... 😉

 

[thalamus52]

wow, sounds like some schools do have it really rough! We have separate ICU rotations for large and small animal at Edinburgh. And we have to do a week over one of the holidays before final year. I would not be able to learn or read up on cases if I had to cover ICU while on other rotations...I'm really glad we don't have to do that. We also only have to do weekends when we're on ICU thankfully! It seems like our final year is much more lax than most other schools, and yet we still complain!

I was thinking of applying to internships at a few vet schools...now I may be reconsidering that....

when you're covering this extra ICU duty, do you get to learn much/get involved? Or is it mostly just administering treatments, cleaning, feeding, etc?

 

[pooter]

I'm pretty sure they still work us pretty darn hard.... 😉

Well, crap, if I'd known there'd be *work* involved, I'd have skipped vet school and gotten a job folding jeans at the Gap!

 

[hbact266]

I think you can look at this a couple of different ways, if you enjoy the work your doing then taking on more cases and using the academic system to learn is great. While in school you learn then you take a test, in the real world you take the test then you learn, so its really how you look at your situation. I went to a caribbean school then went to do my 4th year at another school, consider having to do overnights and handling cases with people who don't know you and second guess your intelligence. In my case, if I complained I know I would probably get worked harder so you also have to look at the political implications of what you do.

 

[hbact266]

you are absolutely correct, there were a lot of things that I did not check before I chose my 4th year school, such as how the rotations were chosen. I found out after the fact that the times for my mandatory rotations such as small animal med, small animal surgery and anesthesia were chosen after all the regular students chose their times so I had to take these consecutively as my first three rotations. So my advice to you is research where you go and it helps to have lots of classmates with you.

 

[Bill59]

Wow.......that could happen, in our wildest dreams. I know of certain rotations where the clinicians don't get treated to these guidelines either. .

And the students just do it for a year or so. For the clinicians, it's their entire career. Faculty of the world unite -- we need a union!

 

[shakenbake]

All I can say is:

http://www.quickmeme.com/Overworked-Veterinary-Student/random/?upcoming

feel free to add your own by clicking 'add your own caption'!