Pa/do

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PA/DO a transtional program that allows Physician Assistant to become DO's what are your thoughts?
 
0U1988 said:
What are your thoughts on a PA/DO bridge program being created?
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If you want to be a DO, why not just get your DO degree in the first place? I can understand there are those that later wish they had gone to medical school, but if that's the case, then you should have to go through the full thing. Just my opinion though.
 
Well then lets get rid of the MCAT and shadowing requirements, organic chemistry etc. for admissions to MD/DO schools.

Whats up with all these programs trying to circumvent the medical school admissions process?
 
0U1988 said:
PA/DO a transtional program that allows Physician Assistant to become DO's what are your thoughts?
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Link please. I don't believe such a program exists.
 
0U1988 said:
What are your thoughts on a PA/DO bridge program being created?
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I think it's called "medical school," and it runs about 4 years. 🙄

I respect PA's. The longer health care keeps on its current path, the more PA's (and NP's) we're going to need, especially in rural areas like my stomping grounds where many PA's are almost independent (cover ER's and hospitals on nights/weekends and rarely call in the on-call MD/DO). However, their training is not medical school nor is it meant to be. Certainly a lot of the same topics are covered, but my semi-informed opinion (have several friends who've done/are doing PA) is that the rigor just isn't the same, so it's tough to see how such a program could happen.

Bottom line is, the basic sciences that are condensed into 9-12 months or so of a 2-year PA program are probably not good preparation for Step 1 of the boards, and there are no shortcuts to taking all three steps.

It's frustrating, too, since I've seen some very good PA's and some poor physicians, and it doesn't seem fair. But as others have pointed out, if you want to be a physician, you have to go to medical school.
 
0U1988 said:
What are your thoughts on a PA/DO bridge program being created?
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Umm no point?? Do you mean that people who are already a PA can get a DO quicker, or a program where you earn both?? What would be the point of being a physician's assistant and a physician?? Do you really not trust other people enough that you must assist yourself?? Also, if you do mean existing PAs can get it quicker ... will never happen. A school isn't going to rely on where you got your previous training and then slap their name on a degree that is half their training, half wherever else. Won't work.
 
There are bridge programs that an paramedic can take to get their RN... and I assume that's the concept the OP is going for here. I agree with the majority, that going from PA to MD/DO is not like going from paramedic to RN, for the good points that many have already risen.

It's a creative idea, and I'm sure it would work for some PAs... but it's not something that is reasonable enough to implement.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Umm no point?? Do you mean that people who are already a PA can get a DO quicker, or a program where you earn both?? What would be the point of being a physician's assistant and a physician?? Do you really not trust other people enough that you must assist yourself?? Also, if you do mean existing PAs can get it quicker ... will never happen. A school isn't going to rely on where you got your previous training and then slap their name on a degree that is half their training, half wherever else. Won't work.
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:laugh:

This is definitely a crazy idea. I'm really curious where the OP heard of this...
 
Im in favor of a program where you get a PA and a DO. That way I could be both at once.

If I, as a PA, am not sure of something, then I could just run it by myself as a DO and see what I think, then give orders to my other self.

If something goes wrong I will say..."Hey, I'm just a PA, dont blame me".

Or if I mess up as a DO I can blame me as a PA and say...."Those damn mid-levels!"

I will most certainly negotiate with myself for a great PA contract and low hours with great benefits and no call.

Im with it.
 
lol you guys are so funny. im sure if such programs were to be created, it would be for people who already have gone through PA school to receive their doctorate degree faster. I seeriously doubt the program gives you two degrees concurrently. would be completely idotic hah
 
just food for thought....

While not a PA program there used to be a PhD--->DO program for PhD holders in the sciences. This was at DMUCOM and my father went throught it. He was a PhD in biology and the program was called GPEP (Graduate education for the Physician) and took one year off of the program..mostly in the basic sciences that these phd's were all most likely well versed in.

Dont think it lasted very long..

IamAriDO
 
it's at the planning stage. the concept is a 2 yr program for folks who have already worked as pa's for a few yrs. basically all of ms1 then a clinical yr that combines the elements of m3/ms4 not done during the pa clinical yr, mostly extra surgical and IM rotations as pa's only do 1 of each unless they do electives in these.
the first 1 will likely be at a place that already has both a pa and a do program....
 
emedpa said:
it's at the planning stage. the concept is a 2 yr program for folks who have already worked as pa's for a few yrs. basically all of ms1 then a clinical yr that combines the elements of m3/ms4 not done during the pa clinical yr, mostly extra surgical and IM rotations as pa's only do 1 of each unless they do electives in these.
the first 1 will likely be at a place that already has both a pa and a do program....
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Interesting. I have wondered abt this possibility. Now, I do think creating a pathway to getting an DO/MD is a means of giving the opportunity to PAs who are interested in moving up educationally/professionally. But I have questions about what would be considered a fair trade-off to the medical professions. These are some items I have considered:

1. MCAT--While I dont hold much weight to the overall value of this test, it is a "hurdle" all med students have to go through. Should PAs who wish to enter this pathway have to take the MCAT, and achieve a reasonable score at least equal to entering medical students to enter the pathway? I personally say yes.

2. Equal didactic/clinical time-- I think the biggest difference in curriculum between Med/PA school is the amt of time spent in both basic sciences, and clinical sciences, and the amt of time spent in rotations. So a pathway program would need to take this into consideration. Based on the last post it has been taken into consideration.

3. Debt for Value-- this issue to me seems the most difficult one to address. As a med student I will be acquiring 4 years worth of debt and interest, before being able to make a "salary" as a resident.

A PA student would have 2 years worth of debt, then can start making a salary(higher than a resident based on an online natl. average search). After a few years of practicing, lets say 3 years, the PA has not only gotten paid a good salary, but they have paid down their debt to some degree. So going back to a DO/MD pathway they commit to another 2 years of medical school and debt. In comparison, at the end of the program before entering into residency, the PA/DO is in a better overall financial situation than a comparable 4th year DO/MD student who has not been able to collect a salary in rotations, and who has not been able to pay down any of their tremendous debt that has been accumulating.

So then why would a future med or pa student choose medical school instead of pa school, with the possibility of a physician pathway? And then how about all of us med students/physicians who have gone through the traditional med school route straddled in debt and who do not get to pay down the debt until residency.

Unlike some others on SDN, I believe a pathway program is a fair evolution of the PA profession. If a PA has been successful in his career, and decides to move up professionally, this option creates the means for moving up to the next level. It is also a much better option than creating a DPa- type program, at least physicians stay MD/DO. Using the military as an analogy, this pathway is like OTS, which allows an enlisted man who has the capability and the drive an opportunity to move upwards in rank and professionally. But I think this pathway needs requirements which makes going the traditional med school route still more appealing, like a requirement of MCAT, at least 5 or more years working as a PA, and a primary care/underserved medicine requirement.

If not, I believe there are going to be a LOT of pissed of med students and doctors.
 
the current concept is for no mcat as working as a pa for 5+ yrs already shows an aptitude for medicine. if they can't cut it in medschool they fail out just like anyone else.
prereqs would be the same. the program would basically be med school minus pa school courses so could easily be done in 2 years as the parts of 4th yr that are vacation blocks and interview time would be replaced with clinical rotations straight through. grads from a bridge like this wouldn't need interview time because they would be fast tracked into affiliated family medicine residency programs much like the lecom program does.
as far as debt, a grad of one of these programs probably ends up with as much debt as a doc. many pa school grads already have > 100k of loans so add 2 more yrs of med school tuition and you are back up to physician level debt.
there are already dds to md and dpm to do bridge programs so a pa to do just makes sense.
the feeling is that it will be a do school first both because do schools tend to appreciate the older applicant with life experience more and because there are pa's who are high level faculty at do schools actively pursuing this option as a way to increase the #s of do's and a way to get more folks into primary care.
I still think it will be 10 yrs before a class actually starts and that will be too late for me( I'm in my 40's) but I think it is a good option for those who have the drive to continue.
 
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Next it'll be DNP -> MD/DO, NP -> MD/DO, RN -> MD/DO, Taco Bell -> MD/DO fast track
 
Might not be a bad idea...but I think the Boards would complicate the set up. Would they take Step I then complete the remainder of the curriculum? Would they take an additional basic science year then take Step I? What about the timing of step II? If the NBME and NBOME decide to combine step I and II as has been discussed, it may facilitate the creation of such a bridge program.
 
I don't really like this idea. If your a PA and you want to become a DO or an MD you should have to go through 4 years of medical school. That is how it works now and that is how it should stay. People always look for short-cuts, not saying that this is one per se, but I feel like we already have all these DNP, DScPA and other garbage doctoral degrees running around, we should at least keep the ACTUAL medical doctor degree a linear 4 year + residency program. If the PA knows the material, then the classes they are "retaking" should be cake. 👍
 
This seems like a problematic idea for a variety of reasons, many listed in previous posts. However, could this just become a way to avoid the med school application process? ie, a person goes to a PA program, gets out and works for a year (getting rid of lots of debt) and then jumps right into a DO program without having to go through the whole application process. Medical school is not something that you tack onto the end of another degree/career, it is the thing unto which other things are tacked on. If you want be a doctor, then apply to med schools and be a doctor. If you want to be a PA, apply to PA schools and be a PA. If you then decide to go to med school then apply and take your chances. However this idea that by getting a PA you are simply fast tracking med school is a bad idea. If you want to be a doctor, go to medical school the old fashioned way.
 
Do PA's have a step one equivalent right now?

Gold
 
Gold 5 said:
Do PA's have a step one equivalent right now?
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They take the PANCE. It's not really equivalent

I think it's important to note there is no MD/DO -->PA program. If you want to take the PANCE (the exam that qualifies a PA), you must graduate from a PA program in the US.

With that being the case, why would you consider a bridge program for the other way 'round?
 
iloveDrStill said:
They take the PANCE. It's not really equivalent

I think it's important to note there is no MD/DO -->PA program. If you want to take the PANCE (the exam that qualifies a PA), you must graduate from a PA program in the US.

With that being the case, why would you consider a bridge program for the other way 'round?
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I frankly don't agree with this one bit..and hope it doesn't go through.
I'm guessing there is no DO/MD--->PA program because why would you want to downgrade?@??!@
 
Tuckermans said:
However, could this just become a way to avoid the med school application process? ie, a person goes to a PA program, gets out and works for a year (getting rid of lots of debt) and then jumps right into a DO program without having to go through the whole application process. .
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one of the requirements being discussed is a MINIMUM of 5 yrs practice as a pa. this would not be a fast track by any means. look at the timeline:
18 high school grad
22 college grad
(best case scenario right into pa school, not all that common) 24 pa school grad
5 yrs as a pa =29
2 yr do program= 31
3 yr residency= 34(more likely 35-36) vs typical residency grad at 29.
 
Gold 5 said:
Do PA's have a step one equivalent right now?

Gold
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no, that is why they would have to take all the science courses in ms 1 and take/pass step 1.
the pa board exam is more like step 2/3+ the fp boards.
 
I guess you can say to a extent its a pretty good idea.

Tell the truth I don't think many pa's would evern do this because it's so time consuming. I mean you become a doctor at 34-35!!!!! Doesn't sound like a good road, but if you really want to become a doctor they should do it like everyone else.

Thats my opinion atleast
 
as a non traditional student who is already 33 I think the argument for this program is pretty bad. yes they have already served the medical community for several years, and proven theirself to be a good PA. Now is a good PA worthy of a quicker/easier route through med school than your traditional med student? That should be the question that you must answer yes prior to establishing this program. If you do this then you open a can of worms "the slippery slope argument"
If a pa is worthy why not a dentist?
If a pa is worthy why not a optometrist?
If a pa is worthy why not a NP?
If a pa is worthy why not a RN?
If a pa is worthy why not a Paramedic?
If a pa is worthy why not a college professor?
Hopefully you see the point, medical school is trial by fire. 2 years of hardcore science, followed by 2 years of long hours in hospitals so you can prove to your patients they will be safe in your hands.
 
saylorsdad said:
as a non traditional student who is already 33 I think the argument for this program is pretty bad. yes they have already served the medical community for several years, and proven theirself to be a good PA. Now is a good PA worthy of a quicker/easier route through med school than your traditional med student? That should be the question that you must answer yes prior to establishing this program. If you do this then you open a can of worms "the slippery slope argument"
If a pa is worthy why not a dentist?
If a pa is worthy why not a optometrist?
If a pa is worthy why not a NP?
If a pa is worthy why not a RN?
If a pa is worthy why not a Paramedic?
If a pa is worthy why not a college professor?
Hopefully you see the point, medical school is trial by fire. 2 years of hardcore science, followed by 2 years of long hours in hospitals so you can prove to your patients they will be safe in your hands.
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I wholeheartedly agree. 👍

I don't think that now is the time for the medical profession to be "lenient" to others. You allow one allied health profession to have it easier, and you'll open a floodgate of changes. Today's physicians need to stand their ground and establish what it is to be a physician in contrast to other professions that are attempting to infringe on practice rights that originally and traditionally have always belonged to physicians.

I mean, look at the "DNP" programs...c'mon. I understand that many of these programs have appeared due to the extreme lack of primary care docs in this country. However, I think instead of funneling all this money into various pathway programs that make it easier to become a doctor, that money could be used to create incentives and better working environments for primary care physicians.

My 2 cents (I think we need a smilie for "2 cents" 😀).
 
I don't see a problem with an accelerated program for PAs, as they do know a lot more medical science than your average premed. It should still be hard to get into, open only to PAs with solid academic records who were at the top of their classes, not something available to every PA. Maybe 1 year of clinical sciences instead of two, then they go through all the same clinical rotations and tests that every other medical student goes through. In the end I don't think it would be popular enough to threaten the medical profession, as most PAs become PAs because of the intense training involved in medicine and what I just described would only shorten the process from 7+ years to 6+ years.
 
sarahg said:
I don't see a problem with an accelerated program for PAs, as they do know a lot more medical science than your average premed. It should still be hard to get into, open only to PAs with solid academic records who were at the top of their classes, not something available to every PA. Maybe 1 year of clinical sciences instead of two, then they go through all the same clinical rotations and tests that every other medical student goes through. In the end I don't think it would be popular enough to threaten the medical profession, as most PAs become PAs because of the intense training involved in medicine and what I just described would only shorten the process from 7+ years to 6+ years.
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why should they have an easier path because they had another job?

being a PA isnt being a doctor. I learned about the brain while i was in college so maybe i shouldnt have to take neuro in med school. Its all about depth of knowledge. The PA may learn the same subjects, but obviously not to the same degree as a medical student. But to get the same depth they will have to take the same classes, maybe some of it will be review but they will learn the other things they need to know. They will also benefit from the clinical years, again filling in the gaps. Thus theres really no reason to make a bridge.

I think bridge programs in general are just a way to get around having the right credentials.
 
PAs can already practice medicine (with a great deal of autonomy in some places), why would any sane person want to go back to medical school when they can already practice real medicine?

PAs went to school because they wanted to be PAs. Now, if you change your mind so what. I mean you can already practice medicine.

🙂 Smiles for 2 cents.
 
Darklord said:
PAs can already practice medicine (with a great deal of autonomy in some places), why would any sane person want to go back to medical school when they can already practice real medicine?

PAs went to school because they wanted to be PAs. Now, if you change your mind so what. I mean you can already practice medicine.

🙂 Smiles for 2 cents.
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Hmmm...lots of PAs go back to medical school. I don't mean "lots" like a large %age of practicing docs used to be PAs, but a significant number each year. Different levels of practice, different skills, different opportunities, different pay. Different jobs--that's why someone might want to go back and make the switch.
 
niranjan162 said:
why should they have an easier path because they had another job?

being a PA isnt being a doctor. I learned about the brain while i was in college so maybe i shouldnt have to take neuro in med school. Its all about depth of knowledge. The PA may learn the same subjects, but obviously not to the same degree as a medical student. But to get the same depth they will have to take the same classes, maybe some of it will be review but they will learn the other things they need to know. They will also benefit from the clinical years, again filling in the gaps. Thus theres really no reason to make a bridge.

I think bridge programs in general are just a way to get around having the right credentials.
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They've already learned a lot of the material. If they can learn the rest in one year and still perform on par with the other students on steps and boards I don't see the harm in letting them do so. Like almost everyone else on this forum I haven't been to PA school or med school so obviously I don't know exactly how much material each covers or how long PAs would have to study to perform like the other med students, but if they've learned enough that the extra material would only take a year I don't see why not. It wouldn't really make their path significantly easier -- just knock off one of the fairly harmless years. If you total that with the 2 years it takes to get a master's in PA then they didn't have an easier or shorter path, anyways.
 
engineeredout said:
Next it'll be DNP -> MD/DO, NP -> MD/DO, RN -> MD/DO, Taco Bell -> MD/DO fast track
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Wow Taco Bell --> MD/DO...does that exist? 😕

My friend works at Home Depot..can he be accepted to Taco Bell SOM?
 
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I don't think there is such a bridge program like you asked. Since PA and MD/DO are different in term of academic level and admission criteria. Well, you can take MCAT, apply and go through the admission process to become a first year MS after you already get a PA degree. However, it will takes extra 4 more years and 3 years Residency. Like someone said why don't you go to medical school in first place instead?

Hope you figure out something to do and good luck with your decision.
TXDO🙂

Welcome to crazy medical world where people has freaking unblievable idea.:meanie:
 
sarahg said:
They've already learned a lot of the material. If they can learn the rest in one year and still perform on par with the other students on steps and boards I don't see the harm in letting them do so. Like almost everyone else on this forum I haven't been to PA school or med school so obviously I don't know exactly how much material each covers or how long PAs would have to study to perform like the other med students, but if they've learned enough that the extra material would only take a year I don't see why not. It wouldn't really make their path significantly easier -- just knock off one of the fairly harmless years. If you total that with the 2 years it takes to get a master's in PA then they didn't have an easier or shorter path, anyways.
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Youre right we dont know what they know/dont know. But one of the perks of the PA program is that its shorter i.e. they wont be learning as much in the sciences. So how do we know what they do and dont know, how do we know how in depth they know it. In order to make this program (a fast track) it would require tailoring a curriculum to fill in the gaps. Even if the gaps are small youre talking about making new classes in every subject. Just throwing them in to any regular med school class for a year will not do justice and lowers the chance of producing quality physicians with all the knowledge needed and they wont know what they dont know.
 
emedpa said:
the current concept is for no mcat as working as a pa for 5+ yrs already shows an aptitude for medicine. if they can't cut it in medschool they fail out just like anyone else.
Click to expand...

Except that MOST people don't fail out of med school. The med school drop-out rate is extremely low and one reason is the MCAT. Sorry but PAs not taking the MCAT is a horrible idea in my opinion.

Also you said all the pre requisites are the same. Does that mean that PAs will have to return to school to take physics then because most PA programs I've looked at don't require physics or biochemistry for that matter.
 
niranjan162 said:
Youre right we dont know what they know/dont know. But one of the perks of the PA program is that its shorter i.e. they wont be learning as much in the sciences. So how do we know what they do and dont know, how do we know how in depth they know it. In order to make this program (a fast track) it would require tailoring a curriculum to fill in the gaps. Even if the gaps are small youre talking about making new classes in every subject. Just throwing them in to any regular med school class for a year will not do justice and lowers the chance of producing quality physicians with all the knowledge needed and they wont know what they dont know.
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That's what I was suggesting, a program of classes tailored to PAs. Obviously the curriculum would be written by people who are familiar with PA and MD/DO programs and know what gaps need to be filled in. I'm guessing it would be too expensive to create to be worth it to any med school but I don't think it would be wrong if some school did. Giving someone who has already received 2 years medical education a 1-year break in a many-years-long process doesn't seem unfair to me, provided they can handle it and when it comes to residency are still judged by the same exams as the regular med students (and the program is competitive enough to allow only the top PA students who probably could have gone to med school in the first place if they wanted). And like I said, I doubt it would be extremely popular as most PAs were turned off by the length and debt of MD/DO training anyways and taking 1 year off of a very long process doesn't really change that.
 
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