PA limitation compared to MD

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if one wants to do rural family med or EM, would you recommend doing PA school instead of MD? (considering time and cost investments)
nope. if this thread teaches you nothing else realize that we get disrespected and underestimated even by our own physician colleagues, often to our faces and certainly on the phone. there are docs who refuse to talk to pa's on the phone at all. thankfully fewer now than 15 years ago. as a new pa sometimes I couldn't sleep at night because I was so angry at some of these pricks.
if I could do it over I would go to medschool. several years ago( a decade ago actually) I went back and took a bunch of science courses in preparation for applying to medschool. then my wife lost her job right after our first child was born and it became untenable. my opportunity cost for medschool (salary lost + costs associated with school) would be well over 1 million dollars.
pa school really should only be a second medical career for folks wanting to take the next step after being in health care for several years.
I'm currently in a doctoral program in global health to get away from U.S. clinical medicine a bit and get more into teaching and international/disaster medicine. about 2 more years to go in a 4 yr program.
 
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if one wants to do rural family med or EM, would you recommend doing PA school instead of MD? (considering time and cost investments)

MD. You can go to an unopposed program and get a ton of skills and make $ that a PA can't normally get doing rural FM.

Also the respect factor is another plus.
 
As a 3rd year medical student, I have worked in several different subspecialties thus far, all of which have PAs on the team. From my perspective it seems like most of them are basically working as perpetual senior residents. They are good at what they do, but when the going gets tough, they always clear the way for the attending to take care of things. Most of them seem glad to let the MD handle the more difficult patients and stick to the more routine cases. I think that's part of the reason why people go into that field...you avoid some of the headaches that come with the extra responsibility.

I guess my point is that most PAs I've come across are aware that their job is not the same as the physician's, and they are completely fine with it.
 
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I would expect the PA to deliver standard of care.
if the complaint is " I am out of my bp meds can you refill them for me you stupid pa?" I can either give you a script for 5 tabs which will still cost you your full 20 dollar copay and tell you to see your regular doc in clinic or I can write you for 90 tabs. both would meet the standard of care.
 
I would expect the PA to deliver standard of care.

Lol. According to the problem there are so many ways of meeting the "standard of care" Let's say you were being a douche and you hurt your back. As long as I do a work up and r/o anything that will affect your QOL/Kill you and provide "pain control" and do whatever else is necessary to meet the standard of care in that case then I am covered.

BTW Pain control can be a lot of things..........

That is only a scenario. I have NEVER done that before.....
 
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Lol. According to the problem there are so many ways of meeting the "standard of care" Let's say you were being a douche and you hurt your back. As long as I do a work up and r/o anything that will affect your QOL/Kill you and provide "pain control" and do whatever else is necessary to meet the standard of care in that case then I am covered.

BTW Pain control can be a lot of things..........
yup.
tylenol 500 mg tid + ibuprofen 600 mg tid + robaxin 750 tid meets the standard of care.
so does vicodin 1-2 Q 6 hrs, valium 5 mg tid, and an nsaid.
who do you think sleeps better?
 
yup.
tylenol 500 mg tid + ibuprofen 600 mg tid + robaxin 750 tid meets the standard of care.
so does vicodin 1-2 Q 6 hrs, valium 5 mg tid, and an nsaid.
who do you think sleeps better?

You give narcotics to patients with back pain? 😱
 
nope. if this thread teaches you nothing else realize that we get disrespected and underestimated even by our own physician colleagues, often to our faces and certainly on the phone. there are docs who refuse to talk to pa's on the phone at all. thankfully fewer now than 15 years ago. as a new pa sometimes I couldn't sleep at night because I was so angry at some of these pricks.
if I could do it over I would go to medschool. several years ago( a decade ago actually) I went back and took a bunch of science courses in preparation for applying to medschool. then my wife lost her job right after our first child was born and it became untenable. my opportunity cost for medschool (salary lost + costs associated with school) would be well over 1 million dollars.
pa school really should only be a second medical career for folks wanting to take the next step after being in health care for several years.
I'm currently in a doctoral program in global health to get away from U.S. clinical medicine a bit and get more into teaching and international/disaster medicine. about 2 more years to go in a 4 yr program.

OK thanks for your input. Do you think this situation will change in the future given that PAs are becoming more and more common in medicine? Many non-medical people I know go to PAs all the time nowadays and don't see any distinction between them and an MD.
 
You give narcotics to patients with back pain? 😱
if the person has a legitimate acute injury a small supply for a few days with no refills wouldn't be outside the standard of care, but typically, no. my point was that I could.
 
OK thanks for your input. Do you think this situation will change in the future given that PAs are becoming more and more common in medicine? Many non-medical people I know go to PAs all the time nowadays and don't see any distinction between them and an MD.
I think the future will have pa's doing mandatory postgrad training alongside physicians and taking specialty board exams. lateral mobility for pa's will go away.
this should improve things somewhat when an em pgy-1(for example) sees a pa doing exactly the same things he is doing with the same results. the pa will graduate at the end of the yr and the doc(now a pgy-2) will have respect for incoming pa residents and working pa's in the future.
 
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I think the future will have pa's doing mandatory postgrad training alongside physicians and taking specialty board exams. lateral mobility for pa's will go away.
this should improve things somewhat when an em pgy-1(for example) sees a pa's doing exactly the same things he is doing with the same results. the pa will graduate at the end of the yr and the doc(now a pgy-2) will have respect for incoming pa residents and working pa's in the future.

that is good. i also hope that PAs will do more to distinguish themselves from NPs. many people lump them in the same category but the PA is vastly more knowledgable than the NP as I have experienced it
 
that is good. i also hope that PAs will do more to distinguish themselves from NPs. many people lump them in the same category but the PA is vastly more knowledgable than the NP as I have experienced it
and we do have to answer to docs still to varying amounts. I think this accountability is a good thing.
pa scope of practice is earned. as a new grad I couldn't do the job I do today. over many years and several jobs I have gradually increased my scope of practice by demonstrating competence to the physicians I work with to the point that they are comfortable with me working along because they know I will punt to a specialist when indicated. I'm not afraid to say " I don't know the answer to that, let me check with someone who does".
 
OK thanks for your input. Do you think this situation will change in the future given that PAs are becoming more and more common in medicine? Many non-medical people I know go to PAs all the time nowadays and don't see any distinction between them and an MD.

a non-medical person would not be expected to understand the difference because they have no medical knowledge and therefore cannot compare the two objectively and intelligently... I would not have a problem going to a PA for certain chief complaints. But if I honestly thought there was a problem with me or a loved one I would highly advocate for a physician and especially for the first evaluation. The knowledge base and experience of a physician is matched by few outside the field.
 
I was referring to the public's perception of PAs, not the perception of PAs held by others trained in the medical field. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
 
I was referring to the public's perception of PAs, not the perception of PAs held by others trained in the medical field. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

right, but the general public would not be expected to understand what the differences are between a pa and md because they have no medical knowledge and so they wouldn't know when the pa or md for that matter is acting appropriately.
 
These threads are getting so f'ing stupid about midlevels versus physicians. It sums down to this : midlevels do great work and are qualified to do a lot. They are not doctors and never will be and the only reason they are not is bc they didn't graduate something called medical school. They have earned a lot of respect and should b given it but have not earned the privleges and respect that comes with a medical degree. Yes doctors miss things and mess up but they are still more trained and more qualified to practice medicine than midlevels. Btw to the person who posted all those awesome references to PA's doing stuff I believe 95% of that was the PA acting in their job title ... An assistant. And to the person who said a PA runs an ICU that is called illegal.
 
right, but the general public would not be expected to understand what the differences are between a pa and md because they have no medical knowledge and so they wouldn't know when the pa or md for that matter is acting appropriately.

Yes, I understand. However, in decades past people did seem to know that there was a difference between a PA and an MD.. Now that PAs have become ubiqitous, it seems that a lot of people are no longer noticing the difference.

It's also possible that future generations will grow up seeing PAs for most/all of their issues which may lead the public to see the PA in the position that our generation saw the MD... possibily giving them more confidence in PAs than MDs with whom they are unfamiliar completely..
 
Yes, I understand. However, in decades past people did seem to know that there was a difference between a PA and an MD.. Now that PAs have become ubiqitous, it seems that a lot of people are no longer noticing the difference.

It's also possible that future generations will grow up seeing PAs for most/all of their issues which may lead the public to see the PA in the position that our generation saw the MD... possibily giving them more confidence in PAs than MDs with whom they are unfamiliar completely..

That is fine. As everyone knows, there is a doctor shortage primarily in primary care that mid-levels help fill. It's good for healthcare in general and much needed, either that or convince most med students to choose primary care (gl w/ that).

PAs is a great job with great job stability, relatively good hours, and decent pay. I can't remember what it was but it calculated that PAs actually are similar at the end of the day with a primary care doctor after factoring in residency, debt, opportunity cost of longer training, etc.

Yes, they are still looked down upon by some but I believe that will change in the future very soon.

I've worked with many PA students on my clerkships and while there is some variation (as with med students), I have found them to be a lot of times very comparable to Med students in level of knowledge. ie. they might not be as experienced in histology or biochem, but realistically, it comes up so rarely everyday it is almost negligible.
 
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It's also possible that future generations will grow up seeing PAs for most/all of their issues which may lead the public to see the PA in the position that our generation saw the MD... possibily giving them more confidence in PAs than MDs with whom they are unfamiliar completely..

This is just something I don't find likely at all. If there were any trends in such a direction (i.e. taking patients away from doctors and into the hands of mid-levels) you would see more robust studies comparing the care midlevels provide to that of a physician. Right now I just haven't seen robust studies over long periods of time. Also, I have yet to meet physicians who actually are concerned about this. It just isn't an issue outside of internet forums.

Also if given a choice between seeing the physician, physician assistant, or nurse practitioner I would bet the vast majority of patients would choose to see the physician.
 
This is just something I don't find likely at all. If there were any trends in such a direction (i.e. taking patients away from doctors and into the hands of mid-levels) you would see more robust studies comparing the care midlevels provide to that of a physician. Right now I just haven't seen robust studies over long periods of time. Also, I have yet to meet physicians who actually are concerned about this. It just isn't an issue outside of internet forums.

Also if given a choice between seeing the physician, physician assistant, or nurse practitioner I would bet the vast majority of patients would choose to see the physician.

I am not so sure if that is true. I have seen surveys showing that a growing percentage of patients prefer the midlevel because they spend more time with the patients and the patients feel that they are more caring and empathetic than the MDs.

The average joe who has grown up only seeing a PA is not going to prefer a physician since he will not even know what the difference is, and is already comfortable with the PA

You said yourself that non-medical people would not be expected to know the difference between PA or MD so how can you say that the majority of them will choose the MD?
 
Hahhahaa of course that is the general situation. They want to misinform people so people think they are doctors. And in the next thread one will right " no we don't we are PAs and proud of that" all this crap argument can be ended with .... PAs are not doctors every doctor knows they are less qualified than doctors and if they want to misrepresent themselves than that is on them. Patients are dumb and when the PA comes up and says " hi I'm Tom with the ER staff" patients sometimes get tricked thinking they are doctors. I am a physician and always make sure that my patients know who the nurses are and who the PAs are, so "jenni" from thoracic surgery doesn't confuse the patient when they are talking to a real doctor.
 
I am not so sure if that is true. I have seen surveys showing that a growing percentage of patients prefer the midlevel because they spend more time with the patients and the patients feel that they are more caring and empathetic than the MDs.

The average joe who has grown up only seeing a PA is not going to prefer a physician since he will not even know what the difference is, and is already comfortable with the PA

You said yourself that non-medical people would not be expected to know the difference between PA or MD so how can you say that the majority of them will choose the MD?

people may be "more satisfied" because they don't realize that the physician is seeing 2x as many patients who are usually sicker and have more problems and will therefore be worse off in the end no matter what. It is what is it. People don't know the knowledge gaps differences necessarily but they know that a title of Physician ASSISTANT is not the guy who is in charge i.e. the physician.
 
Hahhahaa of course that is the general situation. They want to misinform people so people think they are doctors. And in the next thread one will right " no we don't we are PAs and proud of that" all this crap argument can be ended with .... PAs are not doctors every doctor knows they are less qualified than doctors and if they want to misrepresent themselves than that is on them. Patients are dumb and when the PA comes up and says " hi I'm Tom with the ER staff" patients sometimes get tricked thinking they are doctors. I am a physician and always make sure that my patients know who the nurses are and who the PAs are, so "jenni" from thoracic surgery doesn't confuse the patient when they are talking to a real doctor.

I find this ridiculous and incredibly egocentric. I don't think anyone is denying that in a perfect world, everyone would be doctors who has an hr to spend with each patient. I think PAs can handle routine cases fine and that accounts for the majority of patients. Frankly, I personally much rather see be a patient who sees a PA for 30 mins rather than a doctor for 7. I think your attitude of purposely drawing boundaries on people is misguided. If the PA or NP or whatever provided good clinical care, that is all that matters.
 
nope. if this thread teaches you nothing else realize that we get disrespected and underestimated even by our own physician colleagues, often to our faces and certainly on the phone. there are docs who refuse to talk to pa's on the phone at all. thankfully fewer now than 15 years ago. as a new pa sometimes I couldn't sleep at night because I was so angry at some of these pricks.



One of the main reasons i chose to become a clinical pharmacist over becoming a PA.
 
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Many physicians lack this as well.








correct. They can assist in surgery. Closing, parallel procedures, ect...

They also need all Rx and assessments signed off on.






Approximately 15% of the time 😉. Not really, but that is the idea.


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This.
 
That's another one of my favorite things is the notion that doctors see people for a minimal amount of time and the nurse prac or PA has 30-45 minutes per patient. If these PAs and nurse pracs are gonna be taking over primary care they better learn to get a lot more efficient bc a ten hour day would only allow 15-20 patients and that's in an ideal day with no lunch break or interruptions and not charting or calling in Rx for other patients. No matter which way you slice it or dice it midlevels will never be able to do what physicians can do and these boundaries need to made for patient safety and so patients are not mislead. And a side not many things present as common issues and often times are not. Like a 20 yo with a PNA. This is very easy to Rx but the real question that midlevels often miss is why would a 20 yo have a PNA
 
people may be "more satisfied" because they don't realize that the physician is seeing 2x as many patients who are usually sicker and have more problems and will therefore be worse off in the end no matter what. It is what is it. People don't know the knowledge gaps differences necessarily but they know that a title of Physician ASSISTANT is not the guy who is in charge i.e. the physician.

I get that "assistant" part, but it seems like a lot of patients miss that. Many people I know actually call their PA "doctor so and so" so I don't think they even realize what PA stands for and that it's not a doctorate degree. Maybe they dont even pay attention to what degree/title their provider has anymore? Maybe they think "assistant" is as in "Assistant Professor" vs "Professor"... not a huge difference between the two in terms of knowledge, mostly just a title.
 
the "assistant" part of pa is really a misnomer. it sounds too much like medical assistant. we don't check bp's and draw blood. we don't hand a dr instruments. we work in affiliation with docs(who often are not even present but aware of our practice through chart review, etc). physician extender is probably a bit more accurate as we often extend the services normally provided by a physician to a population that can't access docs for whatever reason. "assistant" is nowhere on my CV. "PA school, PA dept, of emergency medicine, etc.". we are only "assistants" if we let folks treat us that way. I won't get into the whole "associate" thing here....
pa's do not have more time than docs to see pts. that is one of the great pa/np vs md myths. when I work double coverage with a doc we alternate charts from the same chart rack. if I spent an hr with each pt while the doc spent 15 min I would have "some splainin' to do".
 
You guys aren't assistants you don't draw blood or do Blood pressures sounds a little pre Madonna . I'm a physician and I draw blood when I need to and I check blood pressures when I need to. What's wrong with being an assistant that's your job title. This sounds like the repetition of a midlevel provider just wanting to say they do what the big boys do but with out going to medical school passing three USMLE's doing and internship a residency and passing a specialty board exam. Maybe those midlevels who complain about not getting respect will open their eyes and realize you will never get respect on the same level as a physician bc your not. It is wrong to not treat everyone with respect from the janitor to other colleagues and maybe you all will get some more respect when you start showing some to people that are more trained and qualified instead of spewing this garbage that we are just as qualified crap because bottom line when the crap hits the fan it's a doctor people run to bc of our training expertise and experience. When people start yelling for the PA to save the day you all can readdress your respect issue but its us that live with the life and death decisions that are made and have to sleep at night knowing we are the upmost authority and if we got something wrong and could possibly hurt someone. No one looks over our charts or watches us from afar bc we have earned that position. Midlevels are great but just know your roll and show some respect to those that have put in more training and just maybe with the right attitude somedays you might learn something too
 
You guys aren't assistants you don't draw blood or do Blood pressures sounds a little pre Madonna . I'm a physician and I draw blood when I need to and I check blood pressures when I need to. What's wrong with being an assistant that's your job title. This sounds like the repetition of a midlevel provider just wanting to say they do what the big boys do but with out going to medical school passing three USMLE's doing and internship a residency and passing a specialty board exam. Maybe those midlevels who complain about not getting respect will open their eyes and realize you will never get respect on the same level as a physician bc your not. It is wrong to not treat everyone with respect from the janitor to other colleagues and maybe you all will get some more respect when you start showing some to people that are more trained and qualified instead of spewing this garbage that we are just as qualified crap because bottom line when the crap hits the fan it's a doctor people run to bc of our training expertise and experience. When people start yelling for the PA to save the day you all can readdress your respect issue but its us that live with the life and death decisions that are made and have to sleep at night knowing we are the upmost authority and if we got something wrong and could possibly hurt someone. No one looks over our charts or watches us from afar bc we have earned that position. Midlevels are great but just know your roll and show some respect to those that have put in more training and just maybe with the right attitude somedays you might learn something too
I have no idea what sort of experiences you have but everyone I know including me have had no problems with PAs encroaching on their professional space / respect issues. The majority of PAs I've seen or worked with know their limitations, what their role is and perform it well.

For the majority of routine cases (ie. chest pain), there is no difference between PA vs MD in level of care. Even a 3rd year MD student will know to order trops, EKG, etc.

If things do not seem to all fit or something is awry, then yes it is up to the PA to recognize that and consult a doctor. Most I know do that with no issues whatsoever and will not pretend to know something when they don't.
 
the "assistant" part of pa is really a misnomer. it sounds too much like medical assistant. we don't check bp's and draw blood. we don't hand a dr instruments. we work in affiliation with docs(who often are not even present but aware of our practice through chart review, etc). physician extender is probably a bit more accurate as we often extend the services normally provided by a physician to a population that can't access docs for whatever reason. "assistant" is nowhere on my CV. "PA school, PA dept, of emergency medicine, etc.". we are only "assistants" if we let folks treat us that way. I won't get into the whole "associate" thing here....
pa's do not have more time than docs to see pts. that is one of the great pa/np vs md myths. when I work double coverage with a doc we alternate charts from the same chart rack. if I spent an hr with each pt while the doc spent 15 min I would have "some splainin' to do".

bro it's obvious, and you have stated as such, that you wish you were a physician. But you do not have the same job and do not have the same role. Stop fooling yourself. I would say "extender" is appropriate but in the sense that it is an extension of things that don't necessarily require the MD degree and training experience.

As I have said you don't know what you don't know. You are only dealing with situations and patients you have been specifically trained to deal with. You work with algorithms developed by physicians to treat patients. It does not take years of residency to learn how to run a code (nurses and EMTs can do it). Honestly, a lot of physicians do not think a lot of EM requires a physician (no disrespect to those MDs in EM but I'm sure you've heard it all before lol). But the fact of the matter is that when a consult is called or a patient is admitted or a patient needs a procedure (such as a cath) or surgery, etc a physician (not the PA - even though the PA may admit and start orders - all based on that physician whom the PA works for algorithm) is the one who decides the treatment and does the procedure/surgery. The patient admitted to the hospital is seen by a physician or has some oversight at the bare minimum or is being treated on algorithms made by physicians. The cardiology PA is not the one who sees the consult, creates a full differential, decides on the full work-up, does the admit, sees the patient throughout the hospital stay, does the procedures, etc etc etc all on his or her own. No hospital or cardiology group would allow that and cardiology PAs are not trained like that. Cardiology PAs are not equivalent to cardiologists. I am just using cardiology as an example because this could be applied to any field. EM is a little different because PAs can triage fine as most ED visits don't require an ED.

Again PAs fill a great role in healthcare. But a PA is not equivalent to a physician and you, emedpa, don't seem to understand that notion. Again I'm sure you're smart and do great stuff but you aren't a physician and you don't know as much as a physician. A PA is not just meant to go out and "be a physician" in rural areas... a PA is the physician's assistant. You see the patients the doctor is not required for. You have chosen your career and it is a good one with lots of perks. But clearly it bothers you not being a physician and if it is that important then you should go to med school. But I can assure you that the AMA is not concerned about mid-level encroachment because it really doesn't exist in the real world. If it did there would be tons of studies about the use of mid-levels in care compared to MD/DOs especially if it was felt that mid-levels were taking money away from physicians.
 
"I often hear the ease of movement between specialties touted as a benefit of being a Physician Assistant or other mid-level provider. The theory is that if you find yourself bored in, say, primary care you can easily find a job in a different, more interesting, or more lucrative specialty. By contrast, changing specialties as a physician is a long, incredibly arduous undertaking. The only way, for example, an internist can credibly practice as a cardiologist is to complete an additional three year fellowship on top of his first three years of residency. If, as another example, I wanted to practice as a surgeon I would have to apply for and complete an additional four years of residency training assuming any surgery residency program would take me which, because of the way medical training is funded, they probably wouldn't. A Physician Assistant, on the other hand, can get a job with a cardiology group and a few days later, mutatis mutandis, he is a cardiology PA.

Nothing wrong with this of course. The role of a Physician Assistant in many specialties does not require the depth of knowledge of a physician and I repeat, as many Physician Assistants are hired to do the relatively low-skilled grunt work of a practice this depth of knowledge is not required. But unless we're going to revisit that magical world where two is bigger than four, five years of residency is no different than a little on-the-job-training, and superior knowledge can be had without learning all of that useless stuff, the ease of moving into different specialties should only indicate that a certain…how can I put it…comprehensiveness is not required of a Physician Assistant.

Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the depth of Physician Assistant training although if that's your thing, go for it.

But Panda, can't Physicians Assistants do 90 percent of what a doctor does?

No. Although to be fair they can do 90 percent of the paperwork so, since fifty percent of my job consists of useless bureaucratic tasks, ipso facto they can do a large part of my job. The conceptual difficulty many of you have is your lack of understanding about the structure of the goat-rodeo-cum-cluster-**** known as American medicine in which there are three broad specialties. The first is actual, honest-to-Jehovah Medicine of the kind we all imagined we would be practicing long ago before we actually started wrestling the proverbial pig. You know, things like diagnosing and treating diseases using good clinical judgment and appropriate testing and consults."

-Panda Bear MD
 
the "assistant" part of pa is really a misnomer. it sounds too much like medical assistant. we don't check bp's and draw blood. we don't hand a dr instruments. we work in affiliation with docs(who often are not even present but aware of our practice through chart review, etc). physician extender is probably a bit more accurate as we often extend the services normally provided by a physician to a population that can't access docs for whatever reason. "assistant" is nowhere on my CV. "PA school, PA dept, of emergency medicine, etc.". we are only "assistants" if we let folks treat us that way. I won't get into the whole "associate" thing here....
pa's do not have more time than docs to see pts. that is one of the great pa/np vs md myths. when I work double coverage with a doc we alternate charts from the same chart rack. if I spent an hr with each pt while the doc spent 15 min I would have "some splainin' to do".

No it isn't. The confusion between a med ass and a PA is an issue but misnomer it is not. Your scope was intended to assist physicians. Meaning a group with sufficient training to tale work load off of physicians. Confusion like you described is unfortunate but that doesn't make the name less descriptive. It is accurate

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no it isn't. The confusion between a med ass and a pa is an issue but misnomer it is not. Your scope was intended to assist physicians. Meaning a group with sufficient training to tale work load off of physicians. Confusion like you described is unfortunate but that doesn't make the name less descriptive. It is accurate

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:d
 
What if MD's were allowed to function as mid-levels right after med school? No requirement for residency. Is that future coming as the residency position squeeze begins?
 
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What if MD's were allowed to function as mid-levels right after med school? No requirement for residency. Is that future coming as the residency position squeeze begins?

interesting. Those who don't match have to be midlevels... Anyway I don't think there will be much of a "squeeze" for US grads for the time being. It'll first squeeze out IMGs. It'll then squeeze out carib grads. Then if US grads continue to grow it'll make certain fields far more competitive than they are now (e.g. surgical ones) until more are forced into fields with currently high numbers of IMGs (FM, IM, etc).

Medical education (i.e. undergrad, medical school, residency and/or fellowship training) is the best model that we have to teach physicians to know what they do NOT know. It is this skill that separates us from all midlevel providers. I believe that midlevels, if humble enough and exposed to enough, are also able to learn what they do NOT know. However, the educational process is much longer for them and the learning curve is significantly steeper. Moreover, in the time that it takes for a midlevel provider to know what they do NOT know, physicians are have moved on to learn other things that are essential for safe, efficient, and comprehensive medical care.

On the job-training no matter how long is not equivalent to formal education that physicians currently undergo. A cardiology PA is not equivalent to a cardiologist.
 
What if MD's were allowed to function as mid-levels right after med school? No requirement for residency. Is that future coming as the residency position squeeze begins?

I think that is fair. I have always thought it strange that an MD graduate can't even touch a patient without residency but a fresh PA graduate with half the schooling can practice with no residency. Why not allow the MDs w/o residency to practice in the PA role? It seems logical to me. I don't know of many MDs who would take that option, but there are quite a few IMGs who would be open to it. They are sitting around doing nothing right now waiting for residency so why not use them to improve teh shortage situation.
 
On the job-training no matter how long is not equivalent to formal education that physicians currently undergo. A cardiology PA is not equivalent to a cardiologist.
agreed. but a cardiology pa knows more cardiology than most physicians who are not cardiologists.
with 26 years experience in em including trauma ctrs, rural critical access hospitals and solo coverage of inner city facilities I have more em experience than the vast majority of docs who do not practice em.
I freely admit I'm not an em doc but I'm the next closest thing you're going to find. I've seen over 100,000 pts in emergency depts presenting with all levels of acuity over the years. the experience of seeing those folks, working through differentials, and treating them has taught me a lot. I've learned a lot along the way from em docs, specialty consultants, and other senior em pa's. as mentioned several times above(for those who still didn't get it) pa's don't work off algorithms any more than physicians do. we do an h+p, work through a differential dx, initiate a workup and initiate tx based on that workup. no one tells me what tests to order. I don't have to present my patients. it's the same process. the ddx list an em doc comes up with may be slightly broader than mine on occasion with an esoteric zebra dx but the vast majority of the time we do the same workup to rule out the same problems and give the same tx.
I am not above checking a blood pressure, drawing blood, putting in foleys, etc as an above poster believed. my point was that it is not my primary job. my primary job is to work as a clinician, not a dr's little helper. I haven't worked a shift with my sponsoring physician of record in well over a year. he works days. I work nights. all the "life and death decisions" are mine to make. the doc can monday morning qb them if he wants but the final word on my pts in real time is mine.
 
I think that is fair. I have always thought it strange that an MD graduate can't even touch a patient without residency but a fresh PA graduate with half the schooling can practice with no residency. Why not allow the MDs w/o residency to practice in the PA role? It seems logical to me. I don't know of many MDs who would take that option, but there are quite a few IMGs who would be open to it. They are sitting around doing nothing right now waiting for residency so why not use them to improve teh shortage situation.
it's been done before in several states(allowing fmg's to practice as pa's) with terrible results. the fmg's NEVER consulted physicians "because they are drs in their country" and they had many more bad outcomes than pa's trained by the traditional route. florida used to have an option for fmg's to take a pa equivalent exam and receive a license as a pa. 90%+ of them failed it. those who did pass and went into practice had very high levels of medical board actions. most of them ended up losing their licenses.
history shows this doesn't work. it won't happen again. lots of fmg's attend pa school and become fine pa's in the end but there are no shortcuts to becoming a pa. I'm not saying a subset of american medical grads couldn't do it, I'm just saying we have been down that road before and the laws are clear. to be a pa you have to go to pa school and pass the standardized national pa exam just like to be a doc you have to go to medschool, residency, usmle's, etc.
you don't hear pa's clammoring for independent practice. that's the np's. they are a totally different creature. less training, more rights, because they report to boards of nursing, not medical boards.
 
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a group with sufficient training to take work load off of physicians.
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the way we "take the work load off them" is by doing the same job for a large subset of patients.
The agreed upon stat is that a new grad pa can do 80% of what an fp doc does in an OUTPT setting and 90% of what a pediatrician does in an OUTPT SETTING.
for em it is probably more like 65-70%.
with additional training and experience those #s increase. there is very little an em doc would try procedurally that I wouldn't. thoracotomy, cervical tongs, and burr holes come to mind. can't think of much else. I have done paracentesis, chest tubes, intubation, run codes, cardioversion, fx reduction with procedural sedation, etc
 
agreed. but a cardiology pa knows more cardiology than most physicians who are not cardiologists.

i don't know if that statement can be made. it all depends on how much experience the cardiology PA has in the field. a cardiology PA with 20 years of cardiology experience, sure, but the amount of mobility in the PA field allows a person to become a cardiology PA with not much actual cardiology experience if any as I understand it.
 
the way we "take the work load off them" is by doing the same job for a large subset of patients.
The agreed upon stat is that a new grad pa can do 80% of what an fp doc does in an OUTPT setting and 90% of what a pediatrician does in an OUTPT SETTING.
for em it is probably more like 65-70%.

If that is the case, I dont understand why FP docs and pediatricians have twice as much mandatory training as PAs for only 10-20% more capability? That seems totally nonsensical doesn't it? why would anyone mandate 4 years med school + 3 years residency to become an FP doc if a person with 2 years school and no residency can do 80% of the work? sounds absolutely ridiculous doesn't it?
 
i don't know if that statement can be made. it all depends on how much experience the cardiology PA has in the field. a cardiology PA with 20 years of cardiology experience, sure, but the amount of mobility in the PA field allows a person to become a cardiology PA with not much actual cardiology experience if any as I understand it.
fair enough. I should have said a "seasoned cardiology pa".
one of the cards groups in town has a few pa's and they have quite a bit of autonomy. they perform and read their own treadmills. they put pts on the cath schedule, etc
the duke university cards dept has pa's doing non-emergent diagnostic caths after a 1 yr training program.
 
If that is the case, I dont understand why FP docs and pediatricians have twice as much mandatory training as PAs for only 10-20% more capability? That seems totally nonsensical doesn't it? why would anyone mandate 4 years med school + 3 years residency to become an FP doc if a person with 2 years school and no residency can do 80% of the work? sounds absolutely ridiculous doesn't it?
yup. that's why several med schools are experimenting with 3 yr medschool programs.(lecom, tx, nyu, etc)
there was a program in the 80's that allowed medstudents do count an intern year of fp as both pgy-1 and ms-4. it was hugely successful but closed down when the aafp said it gave fp a bad public image because it looked to outside observers like an fp residency was only 2 years.
docs in england and elsewhere do undergrad + medschool in 5 years instead of 8. we should be able to do that here too. there is a lot of fluff in the process especially if you know what you want to practice when you are done.
 
If that is the case, I dont understand why FP docs and pediatricians have twice as much mandatory training as PAs for only 10-20% more capability? That seems totally nonsensical doesn't it? why would anyone mandate 4 years med school + 3 years residency to become an FP doc if a person with 2 years school and no residency can do 80% of the work? sounds absolutely ridiculous doesn't it?

Remember, a PA can do anything their supervising physician lets them do. And nothing more.
 
Remember, a PA can do anything their supervising physician lets them do. And nothing more.
VERY TRUE. the sweet spot is finding a job where your abilities overlap 100% with your delegated practice agreement and not 60-70% leaving one practicing below the level of their training and expertise.
everyone, however, has to deal with arbitrary hospital rules. we had an fp doc with significant em experience who wanted certain privileges in em and was not granted them(but should have been) because he wasn't em residency trained. there was no option for him to learn on the job. he left and became director of a rural er and now does whatever he wants.
 
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Role of Physician Assistants in the accident and emergency departments in the UK
Ansari U, Ansari M, Gipson K. Accident and Emergency Department; Warwick Hospital, UK
Published in 11th International Conference on Emergency Medicine, Halifax, Nova SCotia, Canada, June 3-7 2006 and Journal of Canadian Emergency Medicine, May 2006, Vol 8 No 3 (Suppl) P583

Introduction: The Accident and Emergency departments in the UK are under severe pressure to expand their staffing levels in a bid to try and comply with the 98% target for 4-hour waiting times set by the government. Increasing staffing levels is proving to be very difficult when a majority of Staff Grades have already left or are leaving to become General Practitioners for financial gains and better working hours. This combined with a limited number of FY2 doctors being allowed to work in Accident and Emergency departments poses new challenges to staffing within Accident and Emergency. The objective of this study was to evaluate the training requirements, GMC regulations and supervision required to perform a suitable role in Accident and EMergency following the appointment of two Physician Assistants at City Hospital, Birmingham. Methods: The activities of two Physician Assistants at City Hospital were monitored for two months. All case records were reviewed and the number and type of patients seen by the assistants recorded. These were then compared with the records of those patients seen by Senior House Officers. Monitored information included number of patients seen, type of patients seen as well as the quality of the notes. Results: On average, Physician Assistants at City Hospital treated 3-5 patients/hour compared to 1.5-2.5/hour seen by Senior House Officers. Physician Assistants were able to deal with most medical, surgical, orthopaedic and gynaecological problems with minimal supervision. The medical records revealed that documentation was better by Physician Assistants. Conclusion: Senior Physician Assistants from the USA are an effective way to improve staffing within Accident and Emergency Departments with the UK. Physician Assistants saw more patients and required less supervision than Senior House Officers. Physician Assistants proved to be a cost effective method of supporting Accident and Emergency doctors at City Hospital, Birmingham.
 
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