Pacific dental services

[De La Salle]

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Hi all,

I would like to know if there is somebody in the dental forum that has worked for PDS.
Is it the best American dental corporation as they say?
good idea to work for PDS? How does it work?
What to expect? Etc etc

Thanks 🙂

 

[bicuspiddude]

Best american Dental corp?
The answer is no. Dental corporation=Slave labor.
Be familar with CEREC.
Upselling a lot.
Be able to complete molar endo in 1.5 hours max.
Anterior endo in 1 hour
Crown prep in 30 mins for posterior
Crown prep 15-20 mins for anterior.
Etc..etc..
Be familar with all the HMO and PPO programs.
It's corporate.......Quality may go out of the window.

 

[kdawg]

Best american Dental corp?
The answer is no. Dental corporation=Slave labor.
Be familar with CEREC.
Upselling a lot.
Be able to complete molar endo in 1.5 hours max.
Anterior endo in 1 hour
Crown prep in 30 mins for posterior
Crown prep 15-20 mins for anterior.
Etc..etc..
Be familar with all the HMO and PPO programs.
It's corporate.......Quality may go out of the window.

Please let us know how/where you are getting this information.

 

[dentaldamit]

Nowadays Dental Corporations are generally for new grads with no experience and alot of school debt or international dentists who need a work visa and alot of school debt. Again this is a generalization. And i'm betting your the latter.

So having said that the best is the one that gives you a VISA because the 'best corporation'.... it doesn't exist. There are plenty of horror stories from dentists and patients from corporate dentistry. Ok this doesn't answer your question, but hopefully you're not mid-career/senior dentist desperate for a job and can only find one with PDS or Western Dental... b/c if this were true.... dentistry is screwed.

My ranking
1) PDS
2) Bright Now
3) Gentle Dental
4) Western Dental

I don't know about the other corps. 2 and 3 I've worked for and 1 and 4 I know people who have worked for them.

Is it a good idea for work for PDS? No it's not work. Go at it on your own or work for a private office.
How does it work? 2-3 columns. Major/minor/NPs or Recalls. You have to be fast, you have to be efficient. The times estimations above is about right. I have worked with dentists who have cried in the restroom during lunch b/c of the pressure from 3 columns.

What to expect? You WILL be expected to do CEREC at PDS. You WILL be expected to do ceramic inlays/onlays/crowns in CEREC. You WILL be expected to work for a percentage of collections. You WILL be expected to do work for FREE. You WILL be expected to upsell dentistry. You WILL NOT be expected to know what insurance is (HMO/PPO). You WILL NOT be expected to know what capitation is.

Do your part researching and asking dentists in your area. Don't take my word for it. But if you can avoid working for one of these, you'll be better. If you do, read over your contract. Everything is negotiable (ie pay, collections, percentage, referrals). I know its easy to say Yes esp with 300k in debt. They're is a place of corporate dentistry in this world, but its not for most. Professionally, I love Western b/c all my patients who run from Western and come to see me.... they're a patient for LIFE.

 

[Halcion]

Where I work is roughly the same with 3 (4) columns. However, where I work, they are more willing to allot the time I need/think I need for a procedure. If I am doing a RCT/BU/crown, I do not have any new patient/comprehensive exams overlapping. I might have a periodic exam or a crown seat, but I don't have to worry about having fillings or extractions while I'm doing a RCT/BU/crown. And if for any reason I ever get backed up because it is crazy with the columns, I just put Cavit in access and finish endo at the next visit, or I take the final impression for the crown at the next visit, etc. I don't like the crazy, being on roller skates feeling, and I have had those days where I worked through lunch, and I am just EXHAUSTED, but I also know I am not going to compromise my standard of care by doing a crappy job on an endo obturation because I've had patients waiting for a long time. And that's what I would say if corporate ever asked me. Fortunately, I have a pretty good front office as far as corporate standards go, and they keep a close eye on the schedule and the time, and if I am running behind, they will call the next patient and see if they can come in 15 minutes later or whatever.

 

[kdawg]

Nowadays Dental Corporations are generally for new grads with no experience and alot of school debt or international dentists who need a work visa and alot of school debt. Again this is a generalization. And i'm betting your the latter.

So having said that the best is the one that gives you a VISA because the 'best corporation'.... it doesn't exist. There are plenty of horror stories from dentists and patients from corporate dentistry. Ok this doesn't answer your question, but hopefully you're not mid-career/senior dentist desperate for a job and can only find one with PDS or Western Dental... b/c if this were true.... dentistry is screwed.

My ranking
1) PDS
2) Bright Now
3) Gentle Dental
4) Western Dental

I don't know about the other corps. 2 and 3 I've worked for and 1 and 4 I know people who have worked for them.

Is it a good idea for work for PDS? No it's not work. Go at it on your own or work for a private office.
How does it work? 2-3 columns. Major/minor/NPs or Recalls. You have to be fast, you have to be efficient. The times estimations above is about right. I have worked with dentists who have cried in the restroom during lunch b/c of the pressure from 3 columns.

What to expect? You WILL be expected to do CEREC at PDS. You WILL be expected to do ceramic inlays/onlays/crowns in CEREC. You WILL be expected to work for a percentage of collections. You WILL be expected to do work for FREE. You WILL be expected to upsell dentistry. You WILL NOT be expected to know what insurance is (HMO/PPO). You WILL NOT be expected to know what capitation is.

Do your part researching and asking dentists in your area. Don't take my word for it. But if you can avoid working for one of these, you'll be better. If you do, read over your contract. Everything is negotiable (ie pay, collections, percentage, referrals). I know its easy to say Yes esp with 300k in debt. They're is a place of corporate dentistry in this world, but its not for most. Professionally, I love Western b/c all my patients who run from Western and come to see me.... they're a patient for LIFE.

As with the previous poster, please let us know exactly how you know this information to be true.

 

[Halcion]

I interviewed with PDS before taking another job. They were very big on Cerec... same day molar endo and Cerec crowns. I also have a friend who worked for PDS in Colorado, mentioned many of the same things as the above poster, and she left within a year.

 

[djeffreyt]

I agree with Halcion. I've had about 12 classmates who graduated and worked at various Pacific Dental offices throughout California and Arizona. Their experiences vary and one classmate still works for them and is very happy working with the company, but he was also one of the biggest new dentist producers from the start.

The others have all left the company. Some just because they had other opportunities come up and some because they didn't love the model. How your work environment is depends heavily on which office you work at and who you work with. Some of my friends had good experiences and other really had problems. I can't recall whether at PDS they work for a % of production or collections, but other than that, Everything Halcion said sounds right on the money.

They do push Cerec. If you aren't doing much Cerec and are sending stuff out to labs all the time then management or managing dentists will have a "talk" with you. Can you blame them though, if they are spending $$$ to buy these machines, they want to use them. One friend said his managing dentist would fight with him over treatment planning class 2 fillings instead of Inlays for all, or most, class 2 decay. You'll even go to a 1-2 week long course on cerec at the PDS headquarters during you're first year.

As for free dentistry, yes, it happens. Happens everywhere you give discounts though. Free exams and largely discounted exams are pretty much the norm at large companies. And as far as upselling dentistry? Yeah, that too. Maybe upselling is the wrong word, but I remember when I interviewed with PDS that the managers I met told me they would be teaching me how to sell my dentistry. Maybe not upselling, but definitely they want you to sell dentistry, not just diagnose and walk away.

 

[kdawg]

Hi all,

I would like to know if there is somebody in the dental forum that has worked for PDS.Is it the best American dental corporation as they say?
good idea to work for PDS? How does it work?
What to expect? Etc etc

Thanks 🙂

It sounds like the OP wanted advice straight from the horse's mouth. We've yet to hear from a PDS dentist. Therefore, I would be cautious believing everything you hear, be it friends, classmates, and especially anonymous people on an internet forum. It is the natural tendency of people in general to perpetuate stereotypes and biased opinions, whether knowingly or unintentionally.

I find it interesting how some of the statements are so bold without having any first-hand experience to back it up. This can be misleading and unhelpful to the OP. Hopefully he/she is smart enought to discern.

 

[hoak]

I'm a newly graduated dentist. I work for Western Dental because I'm in California and no private office will take 0 experience dentist in California. Well, I'll treat this job as a higher paying GPR/AEGD and will find a better job after I have some experiences in my resume.

A friend of mine works for PDS in the same area and she's not happy. For the first few months, you got guaranteed salary. After that, percentage. The thing is the owner/senior dentist works with you too and he/she usually gets to choose the better case -> you will be left with leftover cases. Somedays, she comes home with less than $200. ugh.

Also, everything is upgraded to onlay/inlay/crown, even small class II cavity.

I would say no dental corporate is "the best." All of them are money making machines. The manager will come to you asking for numbers, how much you produce, not how you treat your patient, how good your dentistry is.

If you cannot find a better job (like me), take it and earn some experience while paying down your loan. But do not expect long-tern career with them.

 

[djeffreyt]

It sounds like the OP wanted advice straight from the horse's mouth. We've yet to hear from a PDS dentist. Therefore, I would be cautious believing everything you hear, be it friends, classmates, and especially anonymous people on an internet forum. It is the natural tendency of people in general to perpetuate stereotypes and biased opinions, whether knowingly or unintentionally.

I find it interesting how some of the statements are so bold without having any first-hand experience to back it up. This can be misleading and unhelpful to the OP. Hopefully he/she is smart enought to discern.

Of course you should be careful, and kdawg is right to point out that thus far you've gotten 0 feedback from people who actually worked for PDS.

That being said, you asked a question and got responses from 3-4 people who report that they have had friends who told them fairly consistent stories so far. I did tell you too that I have one friend who continues to work quite happily for PDS and is now in his 3rd year with them. You can decide to use this information or ignore it. But so you know where my information comes from:

My name is Jeffrey Tsai. I work in Texas. I went through the interview process in Dallas Texas with PDS but got other job offers before completing my interview process with the company. I had an interview with a pair of non-dentist regional managers. I had to interview with a regional owner dentist on my second interview (he was out of town on the date of my first interview, but otherwise they combine these interview they said). my 3rd interview was with all three and they had me do the mock patient encounter. This was over 2 years ago. I took another job offer after my mock patient encounter based on several factors including a conversation I had with the two dentists who worked at the office on the day of my 3rd interview (I had asked if I could come in early to the interview and observe the office for a couple hours prior to the interview to get to know what kind of work they did and how the scheduling and systems were run). My main reason for not accepting was that the office they were interviewing for was an hour away from my apt and the other offers were similar and much closer. I don't know if I would have gotten the job either way since they were interviewing other people too.

My other information comes from friends who worked for PDS in the following places:
one in Tucson, AZ; one in Phoenix, AZ; one in San Diego, CA; one in Los Angeles, CA; two in Dallas/Fort Worth, TX; five in Sacramento and Northern California areas.

All of them worked between 1-1.5 years and then left the company of their own accord except one who still works for them as stated before.

I actually like PDS fine as an outsider. I've rarely had patients come from PDS locations who were unhappy with their treatment or who had poor treatment. The places I have worked in general were not in direct competition with PDS locations so we didn't get a lot of go between though. I would advise you to consider at least interviewing with the company if you have an interest and ask these questions again yourself. You may also want to ask to observe, it is a good way to see how schedules are managed and see how patients are broken up between docs and talk to the doctors themselves about the pros and cons.

 

[kdawg]

Of course you should be careful, and kdawg is right to point out that thus far you've gotten 0 feedback from people who actually worked for PDS.

That being said, you asked a question and got responses from 3-4 people who report that they have had friends who told them fairly consistent stories so far. I did tell you too that I have one friend who continues to work quite happily for PDS and is now in his 3rd year with them. You can decide to use this information or ignore it. But so you know where my information comes from:

My name is Jeffrey Tsai. I work in Texas. I went through the interview process in Dallas Texas with PDS but got other job offers before completing my interview process with the company. I had an interview with a pair of non-dentist regional managers. I had to interview with a regional owner dentist on my second interview (he was out of town on the date of my first interview, but otherwise they combine these interview they said). my 3rd interview was with all three and they had me do the mock patient encounter. This was over 2 years ago. I took another job offer after my mock patient encounter based on several factors including a conversation I had with the two dentists who worked at the office on the day of my 3rd interview (I had asked if I could come in early to the interview and observe the office for a couple hours prior to the interview to get to know what kind of work they did and how the scheduling and systems were run). My main reason for not accepting was that the office they were interviewing for was an hour away from my apt and the other offers were similar and much closer. I don't know if I would have gotten the job either way since they were interviewing other people too.

My other information comes from friends who worked for PDS in the following places:
one in Tucson, AZ; one in Phoenix, AZ; one in San Diego, CA; one in Los Angeles, CA; two in Dallas/Fort Worth, TX; five in Sacramento and Northern California areas.

All of them worked between 1-1.5 years and then left the company of their own accord except one who still works for them as stated before.

I actually like PDS fine as an outsider. I've rarely had patients come from PDS locations who were unhappy with their treatment or who had poor treatment. The places I have worked in general were not in direct competition with PDS locations so we didn't get a lot of go between though. I would advise you to consider at least interviewing with the company if you have an interest and ask these questions again yourself. You may also want to ask to observe, it is a good way to see how schedules are managed and see how patients are broken up between docs and talk to the doctors themselves about the pros and cons.

There we go, a great example of an unbiased post...something hard to find these days. The OP (and other readers) will benefit from this first-hand experience by Jeffrey much more than those others that spew out gossip they've heard from their "buddies".

I don't mean to be anal, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I hate the perpetuation of hearsay. Dentists seem to be some of the worst offenders too, must be our type-A know-it-all personalities.

I work for PDS. If the OP would like any questions answered I'd love to help. To address the original questions:

1) "Best American dental corporation/good idea to work for them"? That's subjective and for you to decide. Nobody can tell you if their model fits your goals and preferences. Plenty of dentists have found it to be ideal and a pathway to ownership with reduced risk that they wouldn't otherwise have ever had access to.

2)"How does it work/what to expect"? Again, hard to answer in a setting like this. Every corporation has their own model. From the outside, and even to dentists that have never worked for a corporation, it would appear that they're all the same. They are most definitely not the same. Each one has their own target demographic, treatment philosophies, rules and protocols, etc.

Some info on PDS:

• PDS targets a the upper-middle class and lower-upper class, offering convenient, modern care. That's how I'd sum it up. They do so by thorough demographic studies, placing their offices in metro areas and marketing with a heavy focus on CEREC.
• Many offices integrate specialists (usually contracted and have private practices of their own) who work a day or two out of the PDS office per month.
• PDS has a pathway to ownership with plenty of business/administrative support.
• They offer regular CE and personal coaching on topics ranging from tx planning to implants. They bring in top notch speakers & clinicians for CE, training, etc.
• They NEVER force you to tx plan a certain way. They have made a big investment on CEREC because they believe in it, it fits their model, and the research shows that the target demographic wants the technology. So yes, they will expect you to learn and become proficient at CEREC. Let me make one thing clear, if I want to do a filling then I do a filling and nobody questions me on it. Period. That's one of the dumb perpetuating rumors you hear, that they'll fire you for doing Class II fillings.
• The whole model is centered on the dentists and how to make you successful. The staff is supportive and respectful.
• I said it already, but many dentists who would fall flat on their face on their own will thrive as a PDS practice owner.
• Each office is very similar, yet has its own dynamic. This is why you hear different stories. Some offices are new and struggle to supply a steady NP flow. Other offices are thriving with 4-5 GPs.

There are a lot of threads on dentaltown about corporate dentistry and you'll find lots of opinions about each company. I encourage you to think for yourself. Many hold a negative stereotype about corporations that is unfounded. Yes, there have been some bad apples. You think you don't have bad apples in private practice? Corporate dentistry is here to stay, and only going to grow. Many will find that the corporate setting provides advantages that they enjoy. Others will have to be prepared to compete and offer a unique service to be successful at going it alone. To each his own.

With all that being said, I'm still deciding if PDS is a good fit for the future. As an associate, it has been a very beneficial experience. Many more perks once you get into ownership.

Hope my perspective helps somebody. If there are more questions I'd be glad to answer.

 

[De La Salle]

Thank you all for sharing your point of view.

Wowwww I guess it's tough to work for PDS or any corporation.
As far as the payroll goes, is it possible to get paid a base salary and a percentage comission always?

If there is a bad day with no production on the books, how do you get paid at the end of the month? For example, if you have a terrible month, how does that work? What's the monthly goal expected?

Should you be paid more than 30% commission?

Thank you













QUOTE=kdawg;13364595]There we go, a great example of an unbiased post...something hard to find these days. The OP (and other readers) will benefit from this first-hand experience by Jeffrey much more than those others that spew out gossip they've heard from their "buddies".

I don't mean to be anal, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I hate the perpetuation of hearsay. Dentists seem to be some of the worst offenders too, must be our type-A know-it-all personalities.

I work for PDS. If the OP would like any questions answered I'd love to help. To address the original questions:

1) "Best American dental corporation/good idea to work for them"? That's subjective and for you to decide. Nobody can tell you if their model fits your goals and preferences. Plenty of dentists have found it to be ideal and a pathway to ownership with reduced risk that they wouldn't otherwise have ever had access to.

2)"How does it work/what to expect"? Again, hard to answer in a setting like this. Every corporation has their own model. From the outside, and even to dentists that have never worked for a corporation, it would appear that they're all the same. They are most definitely not the same. Each one has their own target demographic, treatment philosophies, rules and protocols, etc.

Some info on PDS:

• PDS targets a the upper-middle class and lower-upper class, offering convenient, modern care. That's how I'd sum it up. They do so by thorough demographic studies, placing their offices in metro areas and marketing with a heavy focus on CEREC.
• Many offices integrate specialists (usually contracted and have private practices of their own) who work a day or two out of the PDS office per month.
• PDS has a pathway to ownership with plenty of business/administrative support.
• They offer regular CE and personal coaching on topics ranging from tx planning to implants. They bring in top notch speakers & clinicians for CE, training, etc.
• They NEVER force you to tx plan a certain way. They have made a big investment on CEREC because they believe in it, it fits their model, and the research shows that the target demographic wants the technology. So yes, they will expect you to learn and become proficient at CEREC. Let me make one thing clear, if I want to do a filling then I do a filling and nobody questions me on it. Period. That's one of the dumb perpetuating rumors you hear, that they'll fire you for doing Class II fillings.
• The whole model is centered on the dentists and how to make you successful. The staff is supportive and respectful.
• I said it already, but many dentists who would fall flat on their face on their own will thrive as a PDS practice owner.
• Each office is very similar, yet has its own dynamic. This is why you hear different stories. Some offices are new and struggle to supply a steady NP flow. Other offices are thriving with 4-5 GPs.

There are a lot of threads on dentaltown about corporate dentistry and you'll find lots of opinions about each company. I encourage you to think for yourself. Many hold a negative stereotype about corporations that is unfounded. Yes, there have been some bad apples. You think you don't have bad apples in private practice? Corporate dentistry is here to stay, and only going to grow. Many will find that the corporate setting provides advantages that they enjoy. Others will have to be prepared to compete and offer a unique service to be successful at going it alone. To each his own.

With all that being said, I'm still deciding if PDS is a good fit for the future. As an associate, it has been a very beneficial experience. Many more perks once you get into ownership.

Hope my perspective helps somebody. If there are more questions I'd be glad to answer.[/QUOTE]

 

[djeffreyt]

There are a few corporations out there that give you a guarantee which does not expire, but they are few and far between, and check your contract as large practices with permanent guarantees tend to also have very strict clauses about quitting before a contract expires...the guarantee will lure many into signing only to realize they are trapped in a style of practice they don't want to work in and a severe penalty if you try to leave before the contract term.

In the end, if you have a bad day with low production, even though you are an associate, you do what all dentists usually do, which is suck it up and hope tomorrow is better. You'll probably talk to the staff about confirming appts, logging patients who miss appts and tracking that in order to make sure you don't book those people at the most desireable times, consider your marketing and wonder a little about what incentives you can use to get patients to commit to same day treatment if your schedule looks empty. Unfortunately, expecting to get paid all the time when you are just sitting on dentaltown or studentdoc or reddit all day wondering where patients are isn't gonna really happen.

 

[kokobean]

De La Salle,

I've been practicing dentistry for over a year now and when I first graduated I applied to the corporations as most new graduates do. I chose PDS as my first choice simply because it was the newer of the companies and had less of the Medi-cal / mill vibe. As one of the posters mentioned each office environment is highly dependent on the owner dentist. I ended up working for the company for 6 months before quitting. It was a very stressful period of time with a lot of pressure to upsell everything to everyone. During the first 6 months they have a guaranteed daily salary and after that you are on a percent production based minus lab redos which will come out of your pocket. Ultimately, if your office isn't having a good day - you don't bring home anything.There is even a possibility you will owe them money at the end of the pay period. Read the contract carefully or have a lawyer read it over.

After leaving PDS I joined Western Dental. Although I've heard stories my experience was much different. Here I don't do any of the upselling, I treatment plan what I want and start treatments I want to that day or reschedule. It's a fast paced environment but less stressful because of this sense of control and less pressure to sell treatment. I get paid a minimum salary but also earn a commission depending on my production. So when days at the office are slow, I'm not too worried and I can sleep well at night knowing my bills will still get paid.

 

[tbeaven]

I've worked for PDS. The look to attract dentists that they can influence their treatment planning by unloading countless corporate driven periodicals in favor of there treatment modalities that are not peer reviewed. Where Cerec can be an acceptable restoration it is not the end all for all cases. They want to push Cerec inlays, onlays, and crowns. No fillings, FGCs, or PFMs of any kind. Senior dentists will do molar endo in less than 1hr. I was impressed since in takes about 45min for irrigants to properly sterilize. Come to find out there RCT consisted of 1.) access 2.)establish WL with apex locator 3.) take smallest rotary file to length. 4.) fill. all done without a rubber dam. final films would have 5-8mm long or short fill. It was horrifying.

You send to the hygenist for S/RP and they do a full mouth in 30mins leaving all the subgingival calculus. Not before banging the patient up for Arestin in 20 sites for 60 bucks a site. So by the time they need to do restorative they just dropped $2K on there hygiene.

They also count on young dentists not understanding insurance and compensation. They sell that they pay on production, but its really collections if you work out the formula. I had to get them to admit that to the orientation class at corporate. (they didn't like that) Any capitation patients you see, you see no money. About 55-60% of there business is capitation. There capitation list is huge since they have so many offices. That capitation gets paid directly to the offices, and not the provider.

Oh yeah, the top producing dentists I saw had there assistants do everything except the prepping. They would do a crown prep and never see the patient again. The assistant would take impression, make provisional, cementer permanent crown.

Also, the office manager would put patients in your schedule for Cerec crown. Funny, the patient hadn't had an exam with the office yet. Just a phone call with the office manager.

Too many issues to count.

 

[Macroorchidite]

I worked there for a year. Definitely the worst job I've ever had. They would dump all the capitation patients and so many days I would check my production for the day and get zero production for the capitations patients even though I did the exam, prophy and several anterior fills that day. Also, many of the insurances they take compensate very poorly $65 for DO resin was typical. Many days walked away with less than $300 take home pay due to no shows, capitation and suck reimbursement rates. A lot of down time due to no shows. When questioning management about these issues, their response was "You need to create the need. Patients don't know they need that cerec inlay until you show them. You do too many fillings that should be inlays. Look at Dr. Smiths stats, he does over 150 crowns every month and only 10 fillings monthly. That should tell you something about why your production is so low."
You could look at any other doctors stats in the whole company to see how many crowns they did that month compared to you. When I did look at the guy's stats they told me to emulate I found he did close to 200 crowns monthly and rarely more than 15 resin fills in a month. Even as a young dentist I understood he was either over diagnosing everything or ignoring smaller caries that were easily restored with a resin and waiting for them to become a rct and crown.
So basically, if you have no moral compass and can screw patients straight faced, this is a perfect place for you and you will make the big bucks.

 

[ortho lurker]

I worked there for a year. Definitely the worst job I've ever had. They would dump all the capitation patients and so many days I would check my production for the day and get zero production for the capitations patients even though I did the exam, prophy and several anterior fills that day. Also, many of the insurances they take compensate very poorly $65 for DO resin was typical. Many days walked away with less than $300 take home pay due to no shows, capitation and suck reimbursement rates. A lot of down time due to no shows. When questioning management about these issues, their response was "You need to create the need. Patients don't know they need that cerec inlay until you show them. You do too many fillings that should be inlays. Look at Dr. Smiths stats, he does over 150 crowns every month and only 10 fillings monthly. That should tell you something about why your production is so low."
You could look at any other doctors stats in the whole company to see how many crowns they did that month compared to you. When I did look at the guy's stats they told me to emulate I found he did close to 200 crowns monthly and rarely more than 15 resin fills in a month. Even as a young dentist I understood he was either over diagnosing everything or ignoring smaller caries that were easily restored with a resin and waiting for them to become a rct and crown.
So basically, if you have no moral compass and can screw patients straight faced, this is a perfect place for you and you will make the big bucks.

That's why the public distrusts our profession!

 

[J2OS]

Dental Corporations... ALL dental corporations are the greatest ethical dilemma facing dentistry today. The entire concept of loyalty to the corporation over loyalty to the patient is against everything healthcare stands for. It should be against everything dentistry stands for.

The concept of "up selling" is disgusting. Leave that for the movie theaters and car lots not dentistry. kdawg is obviously a corporate rep from PDS trolling these forums to promote his corporation as ethical and patient minded. What he does is MY biggest pet peeve. Take what he says with a grain of salt and put more weight on all the "gossip" you are hearing from other posters as that is much more correct.

In an effort not to offend corporate dentistry I will not name any specific corporations but in general they are all chop shops out for profit over all else. These offices are run by the front desk and assistants with the dentists being nothing more than their employees. The dentists ethical clinical judgement is secondary and often not even considered at all. Many dentists see 50 patients a day with 25 of those patients being restorative cases. In some offices you don't even form your own treatment plan and you are obligated to perform the treatment plan of another provider even if you disagree. You can not change treatment. In the end though it is your license on the line. In the offices geared towards kids new grads pulp crown everything they see because they are pressured to make production. Nearly every patient is papoosed and two quads are done at a sitting. How is that good for the child? Its not, its profit driven. Yes the child may need the treatment but not in that manner, not that volume at one sitting without sedation.

How can a new grad do an endo build up and crown in two hours? Something there is suffering and its not the profit but most likely the quality of care. Most endo offices don't work that fast. Molar endo as a new grad in two hour visit without a microscope or high power loupes, without full understanding of anatomical variation, while doing hygiene checks and crown delivery... really? I doubt the canal was even fully shapped, irrigated, and filled. And people wonder why endo fails. Up selling of crown systems which require excessive prep or the use of foreign labs (ie china) which are often owned by the corporation where who knows what's in the metal is highly unethical.

The only good thing I can say about PDS is they do hire specialists. All these other places however are bad news. Stay away! Don't sell your soul for money.

The bottom line is your patients go to you because they trust you. Don't violate that trust.

 

[djeffreyt]

The bottom line is your patients go to you because they trust you. Don't violate that trust.

This statement is an important one to remember and a good point to drill into all of our skulls.

That said, I'm going to also take what you say with a grain of salt. You paint a fairly bleak picture of the dental corp world that isn't always true. While I agree that ethical problems are more prevalent in large dental corporations and the possibility of having overly aggressive management is higher, this is hardly a large corporation only issue. Read some of the problems new dentists have had on dentaltown with small cottage practice or single office high end cosmetics associateships. Regardless of what dental office you work for, you are part of a corporation because all dental practices are businesses with overhead, staff, and bottom lines to consider. Some of the most unethical dentists you'll meet will not be in corporations, but in small cottage practices where no one can look over their shoulder. And many questionable large dental corporation started with one solo dentist in a single practice.

Again, I agree with you in many regards, but I think telling people to be careful is enough. But you should always be careful about every practice you become a part of and make sure they fit with your ethical boundaries. Fighting the tide of change in dentistry is admirable, but it's also a battle that is likely lost and if you avoid every possible corporate dentistry position you may miss an opportunity that could be a real gem.

I still work part time, 1-2 days a week, in a fairly large dentist owned corporation. There are 4 senior partners, all dentists. Grand total, I think there are 35-40 offices. There are about 12 junior partners. Each office is overseen by either a senior or junior partner. The senior partners haven't done any dental work in a couple years, but the junior partners all still pick up explorers and handpieces everyday. The employeed dentists are in charge of our own treatments and treatment plans. The corporation manages the staff and day to day business and marketing issues. It's not perfect and there are problems sometimes, but as far as ethics and upselling...nope. Being treated like a dog or having an overbearing manager...nope. This dentist-owned corporation is big, but the #1 rule is that the working dentist is king. If I say We should do only 2 fillings at a time, that a previous treatment plan needs changing, that I need to take an extra 30 minutes for lunch, that the tooth needs only an RCT without a crown, that I refuse to do treatment on a patient because they are nuts, that I want 2 hours blocked for a root canal, that I prefer to use a different material in the office, that the schedule is too full and we cannot see any more patients today...then that's it. No argument, no hassle. It's one of the best jobs I've ever heard of among all my friends who are practicing and it's a dental corporation. It's only a single example, but it's to make a point that you shouldn't write off all corporations just because they aren't what you remember dentistry being in 1970.

Now, there are "bad" dentists in the corporation too, just like in the single dentist practice world. I know at least two dentists who I question their ethical boundaries over their concern about their pocketbooks who are colleagues in this group. No matter where you go and who you work for, you will meet these colleagues, it's just life...greed is pervasive.

New dentists seeking an associate position should be wary of all offers, but I think it's not always smart to completely avoid the world of dental corporations...who knows, you may find a gem practice in that group .

 

[ColumbiaDoc]

Sorry to revive an old thread but feel like I must share my 2 cents - it is never a good idea to work for any form of dentistry where the sole purpose to accept any and all insurance patients and then to brainwash the dentists into diagnosing dentistry that might not necessarily be there and up-selling the patients. You only get a paycheck if you are able to diag and up sell cause the basic covered benefits are usually zilch or pretty close to it and guess what 30% of 0 is??