Paramedic or Post-Bacc?

[ChaChaDocta]

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I am bound and determined to succeed in my 2nd application cycle. In my year off, should I stay in my home city and work at my CNA job in ICU (make $20,000) and take Paramedic classes at the local tech college, OR go for a Post-Bacc ($30,000+ in debt). Logically I'd rather stay here, and have a Paramedic degree to fall back on for a while, but my chances are SO much better if I go the Post-bacc route!!!

Help! I just can't decide!!! 😕

 

[ssingh0]

what are your numbers ECs like?

 

[MediMama23]

I am bound and determined to succeed in my 2nd application cycle. In my year off, should I stay in my home city and work at my CNA job in ICU (make $20,000) and take Paramedic classes at the local tech college, OR go for a Post-Bacc ($30,000+ in debt). Logically I'd rather stay here, and have a Paramedic degree to fall back on for a while, but my chances are SO much better if I go the Post-bacc route!!!

Help! I just can't decide!!! 😕

I voted "post-bacc," but only because you said your chances are better that way.

 

[MediMama23]

Do you want to get in? How would a paramedic certification impress an ADCOM more than your present health care related job? How would your c.v. be improved?

I hate to tell you to load on more debt, but if you don't I think we'll be having the same conversation next year. 🙁

BKN
PD, former ADCOM member

Does she have to load on debt and go the formal route? Or would home state school be sufficient enough?

 

[BKN]

I am bound and determined to succeed in my 2nd application cycle. In my year off, should I stay in my home city and work at my CNA job in ICU (make $20,000) and take Paramedic classes at the local tech college, OR go for a Post-Bacc ($30,000+ in debt). Logically I'd rather stay here, and have a Paramedic degree to fall back on for a while, but my chances are SO much better if I go the Post-bacc route!!!

Help! I just can't decide!!! 😕

Do you want to get in? How would a paramedic certification impress an ADCOM more than your present health care related job? How would your c.v. be improved?

I hate to tell you to load on more debt, but if you don't I think we'll be having the same conversation next year. 🙁

BKN
PD, former ADCOM member

 

[streetdoc]

Do you want to get in? How would a paramedic certification impress an ADCOM more than your present health care related job? How would your c.v. be improved?

I hate to tell you to load on more debt, but if you don't I think we'll be having the same conversation next year. 🙁

BKN
PD, former ADCOM member

i don't know your specific situation, but why are you looking at a post-bac program? If your grades are marginal, I say go for it. If your grades are already good, I'd have to say go get your medic cert., work as a medic and then reapply if you feel you are ready. I always appreciate whet BKN has to offer, but I think there is a big difference between CNA and paramedic. Working on the streets and under the pressures of being "the one" to control some interesting and difficult situations puts you miles ahead of other applicants in your experience (the actual book stuff won't help much though). This is assuming you will have worked in a 911 system and not just done the paramedic thing for your CV...adcoms see right through that!
best of luck!
streetdoc
M3

 

[ChaChaDocta]

what are your numbers ECs like?

I have a 30 MCAT (10,9,11) and 3.1 GPA (BS Neurobiology) from a Big10 school. 6 years CNA (currently in ICU), 1 year EMT. I'm hoping that applying early next cycle, and applying to more schools (only 7 last year) will give me a better shot, but I don't want to wind up in this position again next year!!!

 

[Squad51]

EMT-P will not impress an adcom. Period. It is certainly a job, and has some medical knowledge, but also carries some "baggage" with regard to medical school admission. You might want to look at the discussion here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=254483&highlight=adcom

 

[BKN]

I have a 30 MCAT (10,9,11) and 3.1 GPA (BS Neurobiology) from a Big10 school. 6 years CNA (currently in ICU), 1 year EMT. I'm hoping that applying early next cycle, and applying to more schools (only 7 last year) will give me a better shot, but I don't want to wind up in this position again next year!!!

More science, better GPA, higher MCAT if possible, more apps. You can do it.

Paramedic training is aimed at high school grads. ADCOMS know this. It won't buff your app.

BKN

 

[QuikClot]

The former AdComm member who is referenced above also said this:

So, if the ONLY reason for taking EMS training to to buff your CV for medical school admit - don't do it. If you want a great experience that will educate you on a wide variety of patient care issues and in my opinion make you a better doctor (eventually) then take the training by all means. I guess the difference is in the motivation...

. . . which I agree with, esp. as application-buffers are a danger to their patients and their colleagues.

The idea that the training is not valuable because it is supposedly "aimed at high school students" is crap. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what paramedic training entails. Whatever . . . when we hit the wards, you'll wish you were me, I promise.

Being a paramedic may or may not buff your app but it is great experience. Outside of being a PA or a nurse practioner, there is nothing in the allied heath professions that gives you an experience so close to that of a physician. You, the patient, maybe some help; now you make the decisions, chose your assessment tools, make your diagnosis, chose your interventions. Where else can you do that? Who else -- besides the aforementioned and the rare critical care nurse -- does 12-leads, IVs, intubations, runs codes, does crichs, chest decompressions, pericardiocentesis . . . the list goes on and on.

I've had my medic for about a year and a half, and I had planned to quit when I start school in the fall . . . now I'm scheming to keep it up part-time; the experience is just too valuable (and having my own patients too satisfying) to give up completely.

 

[QuikClot]

I might add that the EMT-P is full-spectrum healthcare experience; besides the doctor-skills and nurse-skills mentioned above, you do everything, from restraining patients to changing dipers to cleaning the puke out of the back of the ambulance. That gives you a basic understanding of and respect for the gritty, nasty details and the people who have to attend to them . . . both valuable things.

 

[Squad51]

The idea that the training is not valuable because it is supposedly "aimed at high school students" is crap. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what paramedic training entails. Whatever . . . when we hit the wards, you'll wish you were me, I promise.

Being a paramedic may or may not buff your app but it is great experience. Outside of being a PA or a nurse practioner, there is nothing in the allied heath professions that gives you an experience so close to that of a physician. You, the patient, maybe some help; now you make the decisions, chose your assessment tools, make your diagnosis, chose your interventions. Where else can you do that? Who else -- besides the aforementioned and the rare critical care nurse -- does 12-leads, IVs, intubations, runs codes, does crichs, chest decompressions, pericardiocentesis . . . the list goes on and on.

I've had my medic for about a year and a half, and I had planned to quit when I start school in the fall . . . now I'm scheming to keep it up part-time; the experience is just too valuable (and having my own patients too satisfying) to give up completely.

Actually what the guy said was: "As was I, but I didn't get in initially, despite 8 years of FF/EMT-P. When later on an Adcom no preference was given to EMS professionals over that given to anyone with any other job. When I asked "why?", I was told, essentially, that "anyone" could do EMS (they cited local volunteer ALS EMS squads as evidence) and that there was no academic rigor to EMS programs (again, citing a lack of collegiate pre-reqs). Additionally, several members felt that 'medics were "too cocky to train" and others felt that "most applicants with an EMT certificate just got (the cert) to try and get in here". In short, no real love for the EMS folks. Since then I've talked to other residents who served on Adcoms at their medical schools, I've yet to find one that "pref"ed EMS providers."

I dont think he was saying that "The idea that the training is not valuable because it is supposedly 'aimed at high school students'", but rather that there existed a perception of at least one other adcom member who felt that way. And if he was a firefighter/medic for 8 years (as he says in multiple posts), I think he might understand what the training entails (there is a story on that thread where he describes teaching EMS).

Now, I've got to be honest, I've also been a medic for about 8 years. I've ridden on both urban and rural rigs. And I've met some hella dumba$$ paramedics. If a school is somewhat rural, and all a physician on an adcom knows is volunteer EMT-Ps, I can't imagine they will see the EMT-P certification as academically challenging. Now, I'm not trying to start a flame war regarding paramedic training - but you have to admit that the average paramedic pales in comparision (in terms of academics) to the average medical school applicant.

As for keeping up as a medic, feel free. I did until the end of second year. By that point I was so scared to ride anymore (as I'd peeeked behind the curtain and realized how little I knew and how little information I was basing treatment on) that I had to stop. That said, I intend to go back as a doc when I am done with residency.

 

[QuikClot]

I was talking about what BKN said, not what the poster in the other thread said.

I agree that the paramedic education is designed (like the med school education) to pass most people through, and as such, it might be considered less "rigorous" than a wash-out course like O Chem. Then again, in addition to academics, the paramedic education requires success in clinical rotations and demonstrated competence in physical skills -- Again, like medical school.

Certainly there are some stupid medics in the field -- and stupid nurses, and stupid doctors, etc. May be in rural system, where ALS personnel are scarce, they can flourish. I don't see many of them were I work, because as a medic in a busy system there's really nowhere to hide; it's just you back there, and if you can't do the job, it becomes apparant pretty quickly. The one rural system where I did my internship was, if anything, more strict. Every single chart got reviewed by the medical director, and chart review with all ALS personnel was a monthly event.

I am not arguing that AdComs must value this training because it is valuable. The process is weird and AdComs are weird. What I'm saying is that whatever the perception is, the EMT-P is great preparation for medical school. And those inclined to look down their nose at it as a blue-collar job (which is certainly is) might be surprised to discover the range of experience a busy and progressive EMS system can provide.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

I'd go with the Post-bacc. It's your GPA that's holding you back not your medical experience. I don't think a medic ticket would help your application.

 

[Sundarban1]

You need a post bacc, not EMT training. Period. Good luck!

 

[Edivocke]

I agree with the other posters. Do the Post-Bacc. You already have clinical know how. The reason your getting rejected is because of your GPA!

I'm starting up a paramedic program in September, and I've been running BLS for the last year. A 1 year medic program (like mine) is going to teach you the material, put you through tons of clinicals, and try to get you to pass the NREMT-P exam.

Even if you get certified in a year's time, it doesn't mean your going to be capable (you lack a lot of experience). The ADCOM is going to see right through it. Even if you think your doing it because you want to gain more medical experience and "help people" (medicine yada yada), they're still going to see it that you did it to try to influence your acceptance.

You should only become a paramedic if you want to do it for a career. Its alright if a paramedic who's been working in the field for several years decides "hey, I want more", and then decides to apply to med school.

While your at it, why don't you get your RN, PA, DDS, license etc...

Just kidding with you, but I'm sure you get the point.

My advice ---> keep working at your CNA job and get into the post-bacc program. The things at the top of the tier for getting into med school are MCATS and GPA. You got a great MCAT score (30); just work on your GPA.

=)

 

[QuikClot]

I agree with the other posters. Do the Post-Bacc. You already have clinical know how. The reason your getting rejected is because of your GPA!

I'm starting up a paramedic program in September, and I've been running BLS for the last year. A 1 year medic program (like mine) is going to teach you the material, put you through tons of clinicals, and try to get you to pass the NREMT-P exam.

Even if you get certified in a year's time, it doesn't mean your going to be capable (you lack a lot of experience). The ADCOM is going to see right through it. Even if you think your doing it because you want to gain more medical experience and "help people" (medicine yada yada), they're still going to see it that you did it to try to influence your acceptance.

You should only become a paramedic if you want to do it for a career. Its alright if a paramedic who's been working in the field for several years decides "hey, I want more", and then decides to apply to med school.

While your at it, why don't you get your RN, PA, DDS, license etc...

Just kidding with you, but I'm sure you get the point.

My advice ---> keep working at your CNA job and get into the post-bacc program. The things at the top of the tier for getting into med school are MCATS and GPA. You got a great MCAT score (30); just work on your GPA.

=)

Good post. 👍 Bottom line, the EMT-P is not a resume-buffer like shadowing a physician. It's a career in its own right.

 

[QuikClot]

Six years as a CNA? Whoa, missed that before. You're certainally not going to score more points in the "heathcare experience" column. Buff your GPA . . . and apply to more schools. With a 3.6 and a 39S, I applied to 17, with two acceptances and one pending. If I'd applied to my top seven I'd have no acceptances and one pending!

 

[pseudoknot]

The former AdComm member who is referenced above also said this:


. . . which I agree with, esp. as application-buffers are a danger to their patients and their colleagues.

The idea that the training is not valuable because it is supposedly "aimed at high school students" is crap. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what paramedic training entails. Whatever . . . when we hit the wards, you'll wish you were me, I promise.

Um, you do know that the guy you were talking to "hit the wards" well over 20 years ago and is an EM residency program director? It's pretty likely that he does know a bit about paramedic training.

 

[QuikClot]

Um, you do know that the guy you were talking to "hit the wards" well over 20 years ago and is an EM residency program director? It's pretty likely that he does know a bit about paramedic training.

Why? People with his attitude tend to be ignorant about EMS -- precisely because they don't value it. If I had a dime for every ER doc without the slightest clue about how things work in the field, I'd be a rich man. Whatever. I'm not interested in stoking the flames. He's not a pre-med, my mistake.

 

[streetdoc]

Why? People with his attitude tend to be ignorant about EMS -- precisely because they don't value it. If I had a dime for every ER doc without the slightest clue about how things work in the field, I'd be a rich man. Whatever. I'm not interested in stoking the flames. He's not a pre-med, my mistake.

Hi QC,
I will agree with you about *most* docs (even the ones in the ED) are clueless about what goes on "out there" on the streets. BKN has been great on this board and is a wealth of information! And that is probably the important thing here: even BKN, an esteemed PD of a great residency program, doesn;t see much use of the paramedic experience. As you will learn (i think you're a pre-med), what others perceive IS reality...to them anyway. So, if someone on the wards perceives you to be a cocky SOB, then that IS what you are...to them. This is huge in 3rd and 4th year and i think in life in general. So, ultimately, the idea of paramedic experience is perceived by *most* to be of no value and therefore IS of no value...to them. that is the reality.

On that note, and as a 5 year "street worker" as a paramedic, I feel differently. I'm only an m3 (just about an m4 now), but I know what those years were like and what I was like before them. It changed me for sure (good and bad). I think I know a good bit about EMS (enough to know I don't know all that much) and that the expereience can vary widely, as I'm sure you know. My whole goal of going into emergency medicine is to change the "culture" of EMS and hopefully make it respectable (there are some BAD medics) and to be a proponent for those that work on the streets by educating my physician collegues about what kind of situations EMS has to deal with. It's NOT an easy job, I know and you know.

If the OP wants to get in, do the post-bacc. If you want a really challenging experience and to test yourself mentally/physically/ and emotionally...do the paramedic thing and work for a good system for a little while.
Good luck...
streetdoc

 

[QuikClot]

Hi QC,
I will agree with you about *most* docs (even the ones in the ED) are clueless about what goes on "out there" on the streets. BKN has been great on this board and is a wealth of information!

I really just latched on to one sentence I thought was dismissive and ranted a little bit. As I said (about a hundred times, I'm starting to feel) I'm not arguing that AdComs value the EMT-P, I'm not arguing that the EMT-P didactic coursework is very challenging, and I'm not trying to get into it with anybody. Over, done, kaput.

And that is probably the important thing here: even BKN, an esteemed PD of a great residency program, doesn;t see much use of the paramedic experience. As you will learn (i think you're a pre-med), what others perceive IS reality...to them anyway. So, if someone on the wards perceives you to be a cocky SOB, then that IS what you are...to them.

I think that's where the fire experience comes in handy . . . we get practice keeping our mouth shut and busting our asses on scut . . . I have no intention of riding onto the ward on a Harley and shouting orders. Realistically though . . . you and I have done at least a thousand patient assessments, a thousand treatment plans, a thousand reports. That's valuable. The only way it could not be valuable is if you are so enraptured with your little bit of knowledge that you aren't open to anything new.

And I guess I value it more since I got my first acceptance. It's not all about impressing higher-ups any more; in four years I'll be the doc, and I'd like to be a competent one. The more you get to see, the more you get to do, the better you will be. That's my philosophy.

 

[notdeadyet]

OP- Easy question: Do you want to be a doctor or a paramedic? Answer that and I think you'll be okay...

 

[blotto geltaco]

Realistically though . . . you and I have done at least a thousand patient assessments, a thousand treatment plans, a thousand reports. .

Oh good lord please give me a break. The treatment plan usually consists of throwing somebody in the back of the meat wagon and hauling them off to the hospital. I mean how hard is it to spinal spomebody from an MVA, toss a drunk in the back, haul a gomer from the nursing home for something ridiculous, swoop and scoop on a trauma, the list goes on and on. And as far as bragging about doing doing crichs, chest decompressions, pericardiocentesis - well that is just asinine. Just because you are trained to do these things doesn't mean they occur on a regular basis - or even a remote one. Pericardiocentesis??? Being a good paramedic isn't all that difficult. The reading in the classroom is aimed at an 8th grade level. Being an EMT-P may help some in the extracurric. section of the med school app, but the bottom line is that it just isn't that big of a deal. Do the classes and make the grades - adcoms want to see the fact that you can handle coursework.

best wishes,
blotto

 

[Underachievment]

Do you want to get in? How would a paramedic certification impress an ADCOM more than your present health care related job? How would your c.v. be improved?

I hate to tell you to load on more debt, but if you don't I think we'll be having the same conversation next year. 🙁

BKN
PD, former ADCOM member

In 13 years as a flight and FF/paramedic, I have come across many ED physicians who were clueless about what paramedics underwent in the field. Outside of EM- forget it. There are also some who see the 'Big Picture,' and while they may not fully grasp the crap one puts up with, after reading many many posts by BKN- it is my strong advice-

LISTEN TO HIM. He is providing you valuable advice... Do the Post-Bacc- Just don't half ass it.

 

[Underachievment]

Why? People with his attitude tend to be ignorant about EMS -- precisely because they don't value it. If I had a dime for every ER doc without the slightest clue about how things work in the field, I'd be a rich man. Whatever. I'm not interested in stoking the flames. He's not a pre-med, my mistake.

After 4 years in medical school and successfully matching in EM- let me give you some strong advice:

Pretend you have no experience and you never were a medic- It will serve you very well to humble yourself now- before you are slammed to the floor by an attending.

 

[ChaChaDocta]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their helpful responses... I am convinced that a PostBacc is right for me. The argument that did me in? The answer was staring me in the face. My grades are not great, and I have pretty healthy amount of health care experience. What is one year at a Tech school to get more health care experience on my record going to do for me? Not a helluva lot. And to think of going through all those practicals and such that we had to go through in EMT-Basic, only moreso, then maybe never use them??? Seems silly.

I very much appreciate everyone that added in what a great life experience emergency services of any kind can be. Just this Sunday, my crew and I rapidly extricated a man who was so drunk he was drooling on himself out of a burning truck, which was fully engulfed just minutes later. Stupid, yes. Rewarding, incredibly. It feels good to save a human life. I hope being a doctor is just as rewarding, but less dangerous 🙂